Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: dave.woodhall on February 23, 2015, 12:05:21 AM
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There y'go.
http://thebirminghampress.com/2015/02/blindfold-along-the-cliff/
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Haven't seen too about the SC AGM. Did anyone there make the point to Tom Fox that all this work on the commercial side will be totally undone if we go down and that the staff he is currently hiring in that department will probably have to be made redundant if our stay in the second tier lasts more than one season?
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That's the most downbeat piece I've read from you in a long time Dave. Worrying times alright.
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What a depressing depiction of life at B6. We are danger of ending one disaster and starting on the path to another ultimately leading to relegation. I believe Sherwood when he says relegation isn't an option. I'm not convinced enough of the current staff see it the same way or are that worried about it.
Let's hope that in the days leading up to Newcastle some home truths are delivered and we are witness to a late season resurgence. Not that I'll be holding my breath.
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I think nearly all of the players give a shite, I think it's down to a total lack of confidence for most of them.
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I don't see any genuine leadership on the field, it isn't a case of not caring it's more a case of lack of aggression. if i see Gabby smiling on the pitch again i will scream, fine when Villa score but thats not very often.Whats happened to Delph and Benteke both of them should be dropped but who do you replace them with, they have no excuse they have the talent we all have witnessed that. A question, i believe Benteke needs another big man up front so the opposition can't double team him, can't see anyone who plays forward now so would you try Clark there.
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I hate what has happened to Villa in the last 5 years.
Not because we have had ups and downs. Mainly downs. But because we have become a by product. An irrelevance. We are doomed at this rate.
And we wont be coming back.
And I fucking hate it.
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I think nearly all of the players give a shite, I think it's down to a total lack of confidence for most of them.
I hope that you're right. Those of a certain age know what it is like when the players don't care enough. Really bad things happen.
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I think nearly all of the players give a shite, I think it's down to a total lack of confidence for most of them.
I hope that you're right. Those of a certain age know what it is like when the players don't care enough. Really bad things happen.
My conclusion is a bit more depressing. Thinking about it I just think the players are not good enough to keep us up in the league. They can try all they like and individually they might even have a decent game up to premier league quality, but on average their true talent level will reflect in the results. This season they have found their level.
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I still think we have a good group off players (I won't say team because that doesn't exist at the moment) and like Dave am 'clutching at straws' that the late goal will kick some arses into doing/feeling something.
Mind you, I thought that the drubbing by Arsenal, Lambert's sacking, the arrival of Sherwood, Roy Keane etc would've done that by now. I'm now of the belief that only a specific threat by Beatle John and ISIS will provoke our players into putting on a decent performance or ten and saving our season.
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Saturday was a real reality check.
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He (Tom Fox) "wouldn’t commit to paying all club staff the Living Wage". What did Tom Fox say? And which staff at Villa Park don't get a living wage? Is it catering contracted match day staff? Or someone else? Ticket office, ground staff?
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Spot on Dave.
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He (Tom Fox) "wouldn’t commit to paying all club staff the Living Wage". What did Tom Fox say? And which staff at Villa Park don't get a living wage? Is it catering contracted match day staff? Or someone else? Ticket office, ground staff?
He said something about government policy and two-thirds of club employees receive above minimum wage. So a third, presumably mostly casual matchday staff, don't get paid enough to buy a ticket. That's not right.
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The owner and boardroom staff at the club may have had good intentions, but their complete lack of understanding or care at this stage makes me angry and bewildered in equal measure.
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I am amazed at this. I'd like to see the facts and figures on this one.
This article from 2013 may be of interest:
http://leftfootforward.org/2013/08/football-clubs-and-the-minimum-wage/
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The owner and boardroom staff at the club may have had good intentions, but their complete lack of understanding or care at this stage makes me angry and bewildered in equal measure.
Three Americans ruining - sorry, running the club. Lerner, Fox and Kulak. Two you rarely hear from, the other is concentrating on lucrative deals; all very well, but these will be null and void in the Championship. The living wage issue is a disgrace. The club is in a right mess from top to bottom. I used to moan at Deadly, but would gladly have him at the helm instead of these buffoons.
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He (Tom Fox) "wouldn’t commit to paying all club staff the Living Wage". What did Tom Fox say? And which staff at Villa Park don't get a living wage? Is it catering contracted match day staff? Or someone else? Ticket office, ground staff?
He said something about government policy and two-thirds of club employees receive above minimum wage. So a third, presumably mostly casual matchday staff, don't get paid enough to buy a ticket. That's not right.
Neo liberal economic policy.
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Of all the things that I've read about the Premier League, that living wage comment is one of the absolute worst. However dreadful the football may be, I'd still come to games at least irregularly. I'm minded not to return until this policy changes, though.
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As two-thirds earn above minimum wage maybe the other third are on minimum wage.
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A lot of companies shy away from saying if they pay the living wage preferring to say they exceed minimum wage, which of course can still be low pay.
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A very honest article Dave.
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An excellent piece Dave. Dark, astringent and unambiguous. The whole squad should spend a day at Bodymoor Heath writing it out in their best handwriting fifty times.
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I talked with my son earlier today and he summed it up in the following manner. "I used to be really proud to be an Aston Villa fan, now I am ashamed."
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The club has become a laughing stock and the butt of many jokes. I cringe embarrassment now, something I thought would never happen. Our stock is so low that the likes of Swansea, Stoke and Southampton are superior to us. Thanks Randy....
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Talking of low pay - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31591075
Church of England embarrassed. Most likely not the only organisation either.
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I talked with my son earlier today and he summed it up in the following manner. "I used to be really proud to be an Aston Villa fan, now I am ashamed."
I never have, and never will be, ashamed to be Villa.
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I talked with my son earlier today and he summed it up in the following manner. "I used to be really proud to be an Aston Villa fan, now I am ashamed."
I never have, and never will be, ashamed to be Villa.
Me neither, nor I don't cringe with embarrassment.
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I'm not ashamed, very occasionally slightly embarrassed, but only for a short time.
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He (Tom Fox) "wouldn’t commit to paying all club staff the Living Wage". What did Tom Fox say? And which staff at Villa Park don't get a living wage? Is it catering contracted match day staff? Or someone else? Ticket office, ground staff?
He said something about government policy and two-thirds of club employees receive above minimum wage. So a third, presumably mostly casual matchday staff, don't get paid enough to buy a ticket. That's not right.
That's appalling and I would say shocking but... It would be good to find out more details. The amount of money that goes through the club and if a third are on less than minimum wage - Jeez! I wonder if this is the same for all PL clubs or if any of them actually pay everyone a living wage?? I seem to remember the club did a big PR spin about being Green it would be good if they paid all their staff properly (as opposed to just the overpaid underachieving footballers).
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He (Tom Fox) "wouldn’t commit to paying all club staff the Living Wage". What did Tom Fox say? And which staff at Villa Park don't get a living wage? Is it catering contracted match day staff? Or someone else? Ticket office, ground staff?
He said something about government policy and two-thirds of club employees receive above minimum wage. So a third, presumably mostly casual matchday staff, don't get paid enough to buy a ticket. That's not right.
That's appalling and I would say shocking but... It would be good to find out more details. The amount of money that goes through the club and if a third are on less than minimum wage - Jeez! I wonder if this is the same for all PL clubs or if any of them actually pay everyone a living wage?? I seem to remember the club did a big PR spin about being Green it would be good if they paid all their staff properly (as opposed to just the overpaid underachieving footballers).
A third are presumably on minimum wage - which is a legal requirement. Some clubs, Chelsea included, do pay the Living Wage.
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He (Tom Fox) "wouldn’t commit to paying all club staff the Living Wage". What did Tom Fox say? And which staff at Villa Park don't get a living wage? Is it catering contracted match day staff? Or someone else? Ticket office, ground staff?
He said something about government policy and two-thirds of club employees receive above minimum wage. So a third, presumably mostly casual matchday staff, don't get paid enough to buy a ticket. That's not right.
That's appalling and I would say shocking but... It would be good to find out more details. The amount of money that goes through the club and if a third are on less than minimum wage - Jeez! I wonder if this is the same for all PL clubs or if any of them actually pay everyone a living wage?? I seem to remember the club did a big PR spin about being Green it would be good if they paid all their staff properly (as opposed to just the overpaid underachieving footballers).
A third are presumably on minimum wage - which is a legal requirement. Some clubs, Chelsea included, do pay the Living Wage.
Ah. I misunderstood I thought there was some sort of loop hole that meant that staff could be paid less than the minimum wage?! As much as I don't like Chelsea - well done to them if they pay the living wage. The club should at the minimum pay everyone the agreed set living wage - it's still bad (just not quite as bad as I initially thought).
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Did TF say that there was any commitment to increase the pay of those on MW to at least, LW?
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Did TF say that there was any commitment to increase the pay of those on MW to at least, LW?
There isn't.
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Did TF say that there was any commitment to increase the pay of those on MW to at least, LW?
There isn't.
As you said, that's not right.
Unusual for this club that we have come to expect to get the basics right.
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I fear that the new broom is sweeping a lot of the good stuff away.
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I fear that the new broom is sweeping a lot of the good stuff away.
Does not sound like RL's established philosophy or practice, does it?
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I think RL1's philosophy was philanthropy whereas RL2's philosophy is stop chucking my money about.
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A very good piece and good to see you mention the living wage. It's an obscenity for any PL club not to pay the living wage to all its staff.
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How many jobs are we talking about on the minimum wage and how many do they employ as a whole?
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In all fairness, it's a bit much to expect somebody serving burgers and pies to receive more than the minimum wage. If they did that job elsewhere, minimum wage is all they would get. If people see it as a problem then it's not a Villa problem it's a problem with this country as a whole.
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In all fairness, it's a bit much to expect somebody serving burgers and pies to receive more than the minimum wage. If they did that job elsewhere, minimum wage is all they would get. If people see it as a problem then it's not a Villa problem it's a problem with this country as a whole.
We can't change the nation but we can change ourselves. We're Aston Villa and we do things right.
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I think it was last season when one of our doormen in The Holte Suite and I were chatting and he informed me of the number of Noses who are employed at The Villa on match days....doing the same job that they did at the sty when blues were at home...but paid twice as much by AVFC.
I assume this was in reference to those with more "permanent" jobs than the constantly changing beer/burger servers.
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In all fairness, it's a bit much to expect somebody serving burgers and pies to receive more than the minimum wage. If they did that job elsewhere, minimum wage is all they would get. If people see it as a problem then it's not a Villa problem it's a problem with this country as a whole.
It shouldn't have been expected that we carry the name of a charity on our shirts instead of a commercial sponsor for a season, but we still did it.
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He (Tom Fox) "wouldn’t commit to paying all club staff the Living Wage". What did Tom Fox say? And which staff at Villa Park don't get a living wage? Is it catering contracted match day staff? Or someone else? Ticket office, ground staff?
He said something about government policy and two-thirds of club employees receive above minimum wage. So a third, presumably mostly casual matchday staff, don't get paid enough to buy a ticket. That's not right.
No it isn't.
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I would rather be swanning around in the mid-table of the Championship and treat our staff properly than in the Champions League and paying minimum wage.
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In all fairness, it's a bit much to expect somebody serving burgers and pies to receive more than the minimum wage. If they did that job elsewhere, minimum wage is all they would get. If people see it as a problem then it's not a Villa problem it's a problem with this country as a whole.
Are the matchday catering staff employed by Villa? I'm sure we used to franchise this out as a lot clubs did/do, but don't know if that's changed in recent years.
You'd think that with the prices charged they'd be able to launch our bottle top removers into the higher tax bracket.
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He (Tom Fox) "wouldn’t commit to paying all club staff the Living Wage". What did Tom Fox say? And which staff at Villa Park don't get a living wage? Is it catering contracted match day staff? Or someone else? Ticket office, ground staff?
Was the subject of season ticket prices brought up with Mr Fox, and whether they'd be dropped to a fairer level in light of the new cash windfall?
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In all fairness, it's a bit much to expect somebody serving burgers and pies to receive more than the minimum wage. If they did that job elsewhere, minimum wage is all they would get. If people see it as a problem then it's not a Villa problem it's a problem with this country as a whole.
It is clearly a problem that minimum wage is so pathetically low. The living wage should be the minimum that anyone is paid for their labour, regardless of what job they do.
You are right that it's not the clubs responsibility. However, considering the fact that they could easily afford to pay all staff a fair wage, then morally why wouldn't they? Why not buck the trend?
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He (Tom Fox) "wouldn’t commit to paying all club staff the Living Wage". What did Tom Fox say? And which staff at Villa Park don't get a living wage? Is it catering contracted match day staff? Or someone else? Ticket office, ground staff?
Was the subject of season ticket prices brought up with Mr Fox, and whether they'd be dropped to a fairer level in light of the new cash windfall?
They will probably go up if there are eight more league games.
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In all fairness, it's a bit much to expect somebody serving burgers and pies to receive more than the minimum wage.
This isn't having a go at you, but this is a ingrained attitude towards retail staff that many people have.
It's part of the reason why many people treat retail staff like dirt and its such a horrible job to do.
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In all fairness, it's a bit much to expect somebody serving burgers and pies to receive more than the minimum wage.
This isn't having a go at you, but this is a ingrained attitude towards retail staff that many people have.
It's part of the reason why many people treat retail staff like dirt and its such a horrible job to do.
There is certainly no excuse for treating people on minimum wage with any less respect than those in other professions.
I used to work in a pub a few years ago, so only got minimum wage. However, I didn't feel I was entitled to more for pouring pints and wiping tables. My answer was to get qualifications that would mean I justified a higher salary.
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In all fairness, it's a bit much to expect somebody serving burgers and pies to receive more than the minimum wage.
This isn't having a go at you, but this is a ingrained attitude towards retail staff that many people have.
It's part of the reason why many people treat retail staff like dirt and its such a horrible job to do.
There is certainly no excuse for treating people on minimum wage with any less respect than those in other professions.
I used to work in a pub a few years ago, so only got minimum wage. However, I didn't feel I was entitled to more for pouring pints and wiping tables. My answer was to get qualifications that would mean I justified a higher salary.
I think you're missing the point a bit. Villa, and all other Premier League clubs, can afford to pay all their employees a decent wage purely because it's the right thing to do.
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In all fairness, it's a bit much to expect somebody serving burgers and pies to receive more than the minimum wage.
This isn't having a go at you, but this is a ingrained attitude towards retail staff that many people have.
It's part of the reason why many people treat retail staff like dirt and its such a horrible job to do.
There is certainly no excuse for treating people on minimum wage with any less respect than those in other professions.
I used to work in a pub a few years ago, so only got minimum wage. However, I didn't feel I was entitled to more for pouring pints and wiping tables. My answer was to get qualifications that would mean I justified a higher salary.
I think you're missing the point a bit. Villa, and all other Premier League clubs, can afford to pay all their employees a decent wage purely because it's the right thing to do.
Paying say, 600 staff an extra £1 an hour, for 5 hours a day for 35 weeks of the year would cost about £100K a year. That's probably what we're paying Darren Bent every fortnight to play for somebody else.
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There's a world of difference between a pub that's probably struggling to break even (have you ever met a rich landlord?) payimg their staff minimum wage and any top flight club being happy to pay players £30-60,000 per week denying their catering staff, turnstile staff and such like an extra £40/week.
How would a match day go if they all decided one Saturday morning "fuck this, I can't be bothered!" If they're sub-contracted through an agency, then they're probably all on zero hours contracts as well.
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The entire landscape of Money And Football is like the plot of a late night opera on Radio 3. On the one hand you have bar staff, serving pints of lager at £3.80 getting less than the national stated minimum wage while the same club they are handing the £3.80s over to, pays lazy players millions a year and terminally incompetent managers millions in compensation to go away. It's like a drug addict demanding organically grown opium.
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I would rather be swanning around in the mid-table of the Championship and treat our staff properly than in the Champions League and paying minimum wage.
Well some of that will be coming true!
When the gates are 20000 on a Tuesday night v Say, Ipswich a good chunk of the staff won't even be working.
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I would rather be swanning around in the mid-table of the Championship and treat our staff properly than in the Champions League and paying minimum wage.
Really?
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I don't understand the issue really. So some student who works for 3 hours on a Saturday to earn a bit of dosh should be getting the same as Darren Bent and as we don't pay that we should be ashamed of ourselves and deserve to be relegated.
I see.
You know when I was a lad back in the day etc etc I used to get to Villa Park at midday for a Saturday kick off and I was given a rag which I used to dust the old wooden seats with. For that I got a packet of the saltiest crisps known to man and a plastic bottle of orange squash. I also got a free pass onto the Holte End to see Little, Gray, Sid, Shaw etc etc.....being paid never crossed my mind.
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When you witness players not even trying - arsenal away for example and the 2nd half at hull you know you have a major problem.
Hopefully Tim Sherwood has the management skills to bang some heads together and get them at least trying.
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In all fairness, it's a bit much to expect somebody serving burgers and pies to receive more than the minimum wage.
This isn't having a go at you, but this is a ingrained attitude towards retail staff that many people have.
It's part of the reason why many people treat retail staff like dirt and its such a horrible job to do.
There is certainly no excuse for treating people on minimum wage with any less respect than those in other professions.
I used to work in a pub a few years ago, so only got minimum wage. However, I didn't feel I was entitled to more for pouring pints and wiping tables. My answer was to get qualifications that would mean I justified a higher salary.
I think you're missing the point a bit. Villa, and all other Premier League clubs, can afford to pay all their employees a decent wage purely because it's the right thing to do.
Paying say, 600 staff an extra £1 an hour, for 5 hours a day for 35 weeks of the year would cost about £100K a year. That's probably what we're paying Darren Bent every fortnight to play for somebody else.
In France that would actually cost the employer about £220k a year because of the ginormous employer contributions.
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In all fairness, it's a bit much to expect somebody serving burgers and pies to receive more than the minimum wage.
This isn't having a go at you, but this is a ingrained attitude towards retail staff that many people have.
It's part of the reason why many people treat retail staff like dirt and its such a horrible job to do.
There is certainly no excuse for treating people on minimum wage with any less respect than those in other professions.
I used to work in a pub a few years ago, so only got minimum wage. However, I didn't feel I was entitled to more for pouring pints and wiping tables. My answer was to get qualifications that would mean I justified a higher salary.
I think you're missing the point a bit. Villa, and all other Premier League clubs, can afford to pay all their employees a decent wage purely because it's the right thing to do.
Paying say, 600 staff an extra £1 an hour, for 5 hours a day for 35 weeks of the year would cost about £100K a year. That's probably what we're paying Darren Bent every fortnight to play for somebody else.
In France that would actually cost the employer about £220k a year because of the ginormous employer contributions.
They'd only fritter it away on expensive cheese and foul cigarettes.
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In all fairness, it's a bit much to expect somebody serving burgers and pies to receive more than the minimum wage.
This isn't having a go at you, but this is a ingrained attitude towards retail staff that many people have.
It's part of the reason why many people treat retail staff like dirt and its such a horrible job to do.
There is certainly no excuse for treating people on minimum wage with any less respect than those in other professions.
I used to work in a pub a few years ago, so only got minimum wage. However, I didn't feel I was entitled to more for pouring pints and wiping tables. My answer was to get qualifications that would mean I justified a higher salary.
I think you're missing the point a bit. Villa, and all other Premier League clubs, can afford to pay all their employees a decent wage purely because it's the right thing to do.
Paying say, 600 staff an extra £1 an hour, for 5 hours a day for 35 weeks of the year would cost about £100K a year. That's probably what we're paying Darren Bent every fortnight to play for somebody else.
In France that would actually cost the employer about £220k a year because of the ginormous employer contributions.
They'd only fritter it away on expensive cheese and foul cigarettes.
The French make cigarettes out of chickens and stuff? Typical French.
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In all fairness, it's a bit much to expect somebody serving burgers and pies to receive more than the minimum wage.
This isn't having a go at you, but this is a ingrained attitude towards retail staff that many people have.
It's part of the reason why many people treat retail staff like dirt and its such a horrible job to do.
There is certainly no excuse for treating people on minimum wage with any less respect than those in other professions.
I used to work in a pub a few years ago, so only got minimum wage. However, I didn't feel I was entitled to more for pouring pints and wiping tables. My answer was to get qualifications that would mean I justified a higher salary.
I think you're missing the point a bit. Villa, and all other Premier League clubs, can afford to pay all their employees a decent wage purely because it's the right thing to do.
I attended a meeting of the Birmingham branch of Citizens Uk yesterday, they're really hoping to push for the living wage to be paid across the region and are hopeful that Villa could be conducive towards doing their part.
I know that Tom Fox was very supportive of the idea of a living wage at the supporters trust AGM, indeed he said that he didn't understand what the point of a minimum wage was if it wasn't a living wage, however he did say that he thought this was a government issue as opposed to a business issue.
Dave - would you be able to PM me to discuss this further? It doesn't appear that i have permisson to message you on here.
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The claim that it's a government issue rather than a business issue is a laughable cop out when both political parties are effectively owned by big business.
If you don't have a problem with it in principal Fox, pay it. £250,000 a year isn't going to adversely affect the competitiveness of the club against it's rivals to any significant degree.
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I would rather be swanning around in the mid-table of the Championship and treat our staff properly than in the Champions League and paying minimum wage.
There's an online petition on Change.org (that coincidently arrived in my mail box this afternoon) protesting against exactly what Dave raised in his article. It's for all Premiership clubs - But I'm sure we could do one just for us if it was thought that would help make the matter more specific to us?
Here's the link https://www.change.org/p/premier-league-pay-all-of-your-staff-a-living-wage
Anyway I've signed
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Signed as well. Given all the excellent community work and "morally correct" way of doing business we've had in place for a long time now, it's disappointing to find we're hiding behind politics instead of doing what's right.
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Signed as well. Given all the excellent community work and "morally correct" way of doing business we've had in place for a long time now, it's disappointing to find we're hiding behind politics instead of doing what's right.
Totally agree. It's extremely worrying that Dave said that he fears that the good (community) work done under Randy Lerner could now be getting un-picked and discarded going forward. As awful as we are and have been for some time on the pitch, it has been some consolation that we've done well in other off field areas.
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Good to see...
Luton make living wage commitment
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/32084150