Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Match Threads & Player Ratings => Topic started by: Legion on November 25, 2013, 06:16:50 PM
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Available Monday 25.11.13 @9.50pm
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Virtually last seasons game in reverse - poor opening hour but the changes galvanised us - draw probably a fair result.
Thought the starting line up was wrong tonight., shocking start but showed balls to get back into it .
Bring on the mackems - we need to win that one .
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A reverse of the game last season. After being two down i'll take a point. Every game we've played in the PL against them has either been a draw or a 2-1 win for one side.
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Well, I never expected that. Fair play Villa. Though why did you play so shit for ages?
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Fuck me - talk about getting out of jail. Relief doesn't begin to describe it
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Great comeback. Tactics and formation all wrong in the first half. Bold moves and better players brought on in the second changed everything. A solid point when a drubbing looked to be on the cards is a very good result.
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Bloody hell...
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That first hour was SHITE. Last half hour miles better. Loads of credit for getting bak to 2-2.
I think we saw two first teams evenly matched. Take those 3 out though and we are god awful.
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thank fuck for a point
shite for 65 mins
obvious changes changed it
good finish by westwood
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Got out of gaol.
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Well that's a relief. Good finish by KEA and excellent finish from Westwood. We cannot play that diamond again, because we were dire and Baker is dreadfully poor.
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More questions than answers after that.
Play yer best team Paul!!!!!!
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A lot wrong with Villa, but a good point in the end. Hated tonight.
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Happy with the point.
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More questions than answers after that.
Play yer best team Paul!!!!!!
He probably would if they weren't so inconsiderate as to get injured ;)
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Our 2 goal scorers were probably our worst 2 players, but i'll take that.Need to be more positive in possesion.And we are only any good when we play at a high tempo.
I would have took that at H/T so that'll do.
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Fuck me - talk about getting out of jail. Relief doesn't begin to describe it
Exactly.
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Boing, boing. :-)
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Just leaving the ground. Well done Vilka boys more later
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I'm also happy with a point we played better in the second half.
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Two of the players a lot of the posters wanted off, saved the game, while of the three players they wanted on, only Gabby did anything of note. Just shows it's easy being a keyboard manager ;D
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The substitutions were the turning point although 2 of the starting 11 scored, great finishes for all 4 goals. Why can we not play for 90 minutes still?
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Got to be happy with a point after the first half showing. We brought some good players on and we played much better. Less than happy with giving ourselves such a mountain to climb. We couldn't have do with another couple of first-team ready players.
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As said. A carbon copy of last seasons game but this time the Baggies let the game slip. They should have been 4-0 up by the time KEA scored.
Fucking dire. I'm not gonna pretend Westwood and KEA are suddenly good enough. I don't think they are for this level. Sylla hasn't lived up to the promise of last season, and certainly his on the ball ability, which needed to improve, hasn't.
Benteke needs to hit form quick, because we're struggling all too often in front of goals. It fell nicely to us a couple of times and we got a result, but that might not always happen.
The difference for me today was taking off 3 players who at this current time are not premiership quality, and replacing them with 3 players who are. Simple as that really.
The starting 11 was bloody awful.
Baker is a nightmare waiting to happen. Bacuna was disappointing.
For me Vlaar and Clark did well today. Vlaar just about held it together single handed at times. Guzan was okay. Gabby and Weimann were lively when they came on. Delph was energetic. Everyone else was bobbins. Tonev started brightly, but he always fades. He's got one trick in his locker and a shoot on sight policy. Full have his number pretty early and he has no answer.
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We still don't have a squad good enough which is a worry,but a good point non the less.
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Never ever give up.
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That will do wonders for our young and inexperienced team's confidence. We are far less naive and far more gutsy than last season. And what a hit by Westwood for his first Villa goal. Outside of the foot rasper right into the corner.
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As said. A carbon copy of last seasons game but this time the Baggies let the game slip. They should have been 4-0 up by the time KEA scored.
We could have scored before as well. Let's not forget the Myhill saves or hitting the crossbar.
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That will do.
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(http://hardcorezen.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/nevergiveup.png)
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Incredibly naive team selection and strange tactics from Lambert, but I'm glad he had the guts to finally make the necessary changes. Until the subs we were utterly dire. I think the enthusiasm of Gabby, and his understanding of what a derby match really means, helped to galvanise us in the second half. I'm thankful for the draw, and full credit to the players for pulling it back. But the complacent attitude prior to the fight back still worries the hell out of me.
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In the first hour when no one looked very good, Sylla and Tonev stood out as being even worse than the rest
Not wishing to write anyone of to soon but I really don't think they are premier league players
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Oh and I love Ron Vlaar, he's got a great attitude and has been excellent this year.
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I'm sure this has been said before but how many times do we give possession away from a throw in?
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Oh and I love Ron Vlaar, he's got a great attitude and has been excellent this year.
Definitely.
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Well done lads, well done Lambert. Subs made the difference.
Happy with the draw, especially from 2 down.
Lots of negatives but can't be arsed with that for now, other than to say it proves our squad is not strong enough and you cannot play Benteke/Kodak without wingers.
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Thrilling comeback, some very poor football at times, Benteke kept giving the ball away and then just holding his hands up and stopping still rather than try to win it back. He needs a goal.
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Oh and I love Ron Vlaar, he's got a great attitude and has been excellent this year.
I agree, he has been really good.
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Just shows what a bad team selection he made. As mentioned by others, some of our players do 't look good enough at the mo. Good to shut the Tesco bags up though - great support.
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Some thoughts
Long was man of the match, by a country mile.
Behind our first choice, we have some poor players. If only they'd have had more than half hour in them.
Benteke needs a goal
Tonev is awful.
Gabby is crucial to us, and Weimann makes us look much better too.
Two good goals from our much maligned midfielders made up for being dominated by Mulumbu and Yacob in the first half.
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Oh and I love Ron Vlaar, he's got a great attitude and has been excellent this year.
Definitely.
He can't be. He's the worst defender ever. Then again, Delph is the worst ever player in Villa history. And Benteke is a donkey.
*Waves to our absent friend*
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They. Not We. They.
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Oh and I love Ron Vlaar, he's got a great attitude and has been excellent this year.
Agreed - and I think we'd be much better defensively if Okore was alongside him, with Baker and Clark as fall-back rather then (enforced) first choice
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Two of the players a lot of the posters wanted off, saved the game, while of the three players they wanted on, only Gabby did anything of note. Just shows it's easy being a keyboard manager ;D
didnt weimann set up KEA
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It's good to see us getting more goals from midfield this season. We're a far more solid unit than last season and that's good to see.
The less said about the first hour the better. Baker, Bacuna and Sylla all had bad games.
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When was the last time we had two midfielders score? Have to say watching it looked like two mid table teams playing a mix of occasional good football combined with long periods of ineptness. Happy with a draw when a season ago we would have capitulated.
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it just shows that we can not play a midfield 4 of Tonev, KEA, Westwood and Sylla at the same time. Only KEA and Westwood should play ;-)
I have been disappointed with Sylla recently, but I think it has more to do with the balance.
Also, I wait on my judgement on Kozak until he plays with a balanced midfield that creates chances. As I said at half time, I do not have any idea what our tactics were in the first half.
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I thought Westwood played well all game, him and Vlaar were the only one to do so. I wonder what the score would have been if Lowton had been on the pitch and putting in the crosses Bacuna was fluffing. It's a bit of a bugger when you really need 4 subs to get out of the mire the initial selection put you in.
Lambert seems to be out-thinking himself. Get back to 4-3-3 with the players that looked so good at the end of last season and build on that.
Some serious upgrades in midfield would be nice too.
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Oh and I love Ron Vlaar, he's got a great attitude and has been excellent this year.
I agree, he has been really good.
It was always obvious to me Vlaar has every attribute required to be a top class central defender. The problem has always been he is being asked to do the job of two men. If you put him alongside a second experienced man (Olsson for example?) we'd have a solid central pairing.
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Oh and I love Ron Vlaar, he's got a great attitude and has been excellent this year.
I agree, he has been really good.
It was always obvious to me Vlaar has every attribute required to be a top class central defender. The problem has always been he is being asked to do the job of two men. If you put him alongside a second experienced man (Olsson for example?) we'd have a solid central pairing.
Him and Okore would have been a superb pairing I reckon.
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I beg to differ about Westwood SR, thought he was awful until the goal, and then was better and more positive.
Delph made a big difference, kept Amaltifano quet, and nullified their main danger.
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lots of complaints but with Gabby, Delph and Weimann not able to start Luna injured and Benteke not 100% that's a fantastic result.
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Oh and I love Ron Vlaar, he's got a great attitude and has been excellent this year.
I agree, he has been really good.
It was always obvious to me Vlaar has every attribute required to be a top class central defender. The problem has always been he is being asked to do the job of two men. If you put him alongside a second experienced man (Olsson for example?) we'd have a solid central pairing.
Him and Okore would have been a superb pairing I reckon.
Yeah totally agree about that .
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I thought Kozak played better than Benteke before he went off.
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Bit of Kent Nielsen about that Westwood goal.
Great point considering how it started, I only just got in from work so delighted to see we pulled it back. Beat Sunderland and its a tidy little run we're on, I just hope we don't fuck it up at home against a team everyone else is spanking on home turf.
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Incredibly naive team selection and strange tactics from Lambert, but I'm glad he had the guts to finally make the necessary changes. Until the subs we were utterly dire. I think the enthusiasm of Gabby, and his understanding of what a derby match really means, helped to galvanise us in the second half. I'm thankful for the draw, and full credit to the players for pulling it back. But the complacent attitude prior to the fight back still worries the hell out of me.
The other thing about Gabby coming on was that we were finally able to put some pressure on those two carthorses at the back for them and they were all over the place. We got back into the game and then for some reason went to a flat back 5 and invited them on to us again. Just some general observations:
- I accept that they wouldn't be playing if other options were fit, but after three seasons I've had my fill of Baker and to some extent Clark as well to be honest
- Benteke needs to be the main target man with others playing off him
- Bacuna needs to play further forward
- Westwood and KEA together in midfield doesn't really work
- Tonev isn't ready for the top flight yet
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I have been very critical of our midfield and really for most of the game they were crap again but well done for the goals lads. Win on Saturday and this is an even better point.
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The problem with this performance as welcome as the point is from the position we were in is that none of the big questions about the quality of some of the players that started tonight will be answered. Lambert has already been on sky saying how excellent we were in the 2nd half and how Westwood grabbed the game by the scruff of the neck.
No doubt the subs made a difference but I still don't think it was massive quality in the 2nd half and I thought West Brom were made to look like world beaters at times which they most certainly are not.
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Good for morale I reckon, we feel as though we won, they feel like they lost.
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I winder if Lambert had planned his ambush subs regardless of the scoreline? Anyway it worked. I am amused two of our worst players on the day scored.
That formation Lambert plays leaves a huge gap at the back (or the players he plays in it do). We need to sort that or good teams will rip us apart and wont be as wasteful as mediocre sides like West Brom.
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I beg to differ about Westwood SR, thought he was awful until the goal, and then was better and more positive.
Delph made a big difference, kept Amaltifano quet, and nullified their main danger.
Can't agree with that, thought our 2 goal scorers were the best for us tonight.
Sat in the east stand, I am well aware of having to lie low but I just lept up when the equaliser screamed in and shouted 'get in there'. Don't know how I got away with it, my daughter was mortified. Loads of stares but thankfully no trouble, I just couldn't help it.
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did lowton play any part?
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I was very grumpy at half time like everybody else, I'm sure.
In the end it was a relief and far more encouraging. We could be quite good with a few tweaks but also in terrible trouble with a few more injuries.
What I'd like to see. Proper fullbacks. I want to see Lowton back in and Luna and Bennett back fit. Baker's positioning frightens me and he's just not up to it in my opinion. We REALLY miss Okore and we've had terrible luck there. Definitely loan a centre half in January.
We also need a playmaking midfielder as we've known for about a billion years. I'd also like to see Bacuna in midfield in the short term.
Also, it would be nice to string two good halves together.
However, all that bollocks aside. We showed some GUTS in getting back there. And thank god Sessegnon had his clown shoes on.
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Good for morale I reckon, we feel as though we won, they feel like they lost.
yes. I still get gutted about the match with Blues when Stern John got them a point in the last minute after we were 2-0 up. That still feels like a defeat, I reckon WBA will be feeling the same about this one for years to come.
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I thought Kozak played better than Benteke before he went off.
Me too.
Lambert said all three subs only started training Friday, so I think he was right to bring them with others tiring, they had the desired effect.
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Good for morale I reckon, we feel as though we won, they feel like they lost.
yes. I still get gutted about the match with Blues when Stern John got them a point in the last minute after we were 2-0 up. That still feels like a defeat, I reckon WBA will be feeling the same about this one for years to come.
Never mind what they say, never mind all the "the Wulvs am ar propa rivuls" they'll come out with. Tonight was the night they reckoned they were going to batter us. They had the chance and they blew it.
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I was very grumpy at half time like everybody else, I'm sure.
In the end it was a relief and far more encouraging. We could be quite good with a few tweaks but also in terrible trouble with a few more injuries.
What I'd like to see. Proper fullbacks. I want to see Lowton back in and Luna and Bennett back fit. Baker's positioning frightens me and he's just not up to it in my opinion. We REALLY miss Okore and we've had terrible luck there. Definitely loan a centre half in January.
We also need a playmaking midfielder as we've known for about a billion years. I'd also like to see Bacuna in midfield in the short term.
Also, it would be nice to string two good halves together.
However, all that bollocks aside. We showed some GUTS in getting back there. And thank god Sessegnon had his clown shoes on.
Couldn't agree more mate.
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Paul Lambert, quoted on The Guardian website just now:
"I thought second half we were fantastic. To be fair, in the first half we were down 2-0 in 10 minutes and you're just thinking, we need to hang in here to half time.
"We thought we had to get them on pretty quickly. We thought we need to get a goal here. They made a huge difference. They only started to train on Friday, and they came on and I thought they were outstanding.
"To come back in a derby game, in this atmosphere, and to do it the way they did it, I'm delighted for them. I think Westwood took the game by the scruff of the neck. He can hit them. It was no more than he was due. I thought he was terrific for us.
"Hopefully people are starting to see they're a really great side, with great energy, and if we can keep them together for a few years then we'll see."
Now I'm a big supporter of Lambert and I like what he's trying to do with our club (even if sometimes it's hard to see what the hell he's playing at) but I think comments like the last one are what let him down; sometimes I wouldn't mind a dose of realism - it wouldn't hurt any more than watching that first half. By all means praise your side for the comeback Paul, but to claim we're a "really great side"? After that shambolic first hour? Stuff like that just serves to make him look either blind or mildly insane.
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Good for morale I reckon, we feel as though we won, they feel like they lost.
yes. I still get gutted about the match with Blues when Stern John got them a point in the last minute after we were 2-0 up. That still feels like a defeat, I reckon WBA will be feeling the same about this one for years to come.
Never mind what they say, never mind all the "the Wulvs am ar propa rivuls" they'll come out with. Tonight was the night they reckoned they were going to batter us. They had the chance and they blew it.
Definitely the scene was set, there is more expectation than hope on their side you could sense it. Look at the fact that we were extremely poor at times and they still couldn't beat us on their own patch.
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The bar I was in closed when Al H scored. It was nigh on midnight and they do not give a monkey's shite about non-local footie unless it is Manchessteer wotsit.I thought that was that and grumpily made my was home in the lightening and rain to find we drew..wonderful tbh..makes the day.. why can't we go a Long..we have the players. Surprised Leandro did not get pumped up for a pop..forwards need to have good think esp Christian..Come on mate 'worth £35m?? Doubt it! Beluddie lucky imo.
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Got out of jail there. It was great to wave the gobshites in the Smethick End off.
Why oh fucking why cannot that Mickey Mouse outfit ever deal with a crowd?
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did lowton play any part?
Started on the bench and stayed there. Hopefully he'll play at RB on Saturday with Bacuna moving up to MF (as per end of Cardiff game)
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Why is Clark getting shit from some, he's clearly a central defender playing out of position because both left backs are injured, it's a bit unfair to slag him off over that. Baker was poor in the centre, just sells himself too cheaply too often.
Bacuna had a poor game but he's still fine. KEA was poor in the 442 but came a lot more into it and looked decent after the subs, Similar with Westwood.
Weimann and Gabby gave us some much needed zip and energy, when we're at our best we close the ball quick and press teams into 50/50 punts.
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Good for morale I reckon, we feel as though we won, they feel like they lost.
yes. I still get gutted about the match with Blues when Stern John got them a point in the last minute after we were 2-0 up. That still feels like a defeat, I reckon WBA will be feeling the same about this one for years to come.
Even the fella hosting the sky coverage (don't know his name) said how must Long feel after losing that game
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Final score shouldn't mask how inept we were in the first 30 mins & how poor that starting 11 was.
Tonev shouldn't be anywhere near the starting 11. We saw tonight why Sylla has not been in the team this season. Personally I'd rather see some of the young kids get a chance than the likes of Tonev & Sylla who are just not up to speed or not good enough.
Energy & quality was improved as soon as the subs went on, but whatever team starts we must start every game better than we have been.
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I think the diamond doesn't work, because we don't have players to influence the game. Hopefully the goals for Westwood and KEA will boost their confidence and get them playing better.
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Well, well, well, delirium reigned in the pub in Chichester from whence I have just returned. Five Villa fans and one Albion fan in there - which is about representative of course - and you can imagine the scenes when Westwood scored....did I say we were boring in another thread perchance?!
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A point against a side like that is always two dropped.
Good that we showed he resolve to get back into the game, but this side needs resolve. As it has precious little else going for it at the moment.
Serious lack of quality from both sides. Us more than then, which is a concern.
The Kozak deal is looking increasingly like a bizarre waste of limited funds.
The subs made a difference, and if Delph, Gabby and Bill were't fit to start the game then PL had his hands tied, so fair enough. But even with those three of the pitch, we didn't ever really look like picking off the opposition with incisive passing. It all looked a bit O'Neill, pump crosses into the box or boot the ball up to the big man and hope something breaks. Feeding off the scraps. Minus the quality of Ashley Young (and boy could we do with someone like that at present).
People have talked about a lack of a number 10, but on that showing, we need three midfielders this Jan.
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Long's first goal makes him worth Bale money..get out son while the sun is shining..rainlng like blazes here!
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I think the diamond doesn't work, because we don't have players to influence the game. Hopefully the goals for Westwood and KEA will boost their confidence and get them playing better.
Funny old game innit, they spend most of the night doing a passable impersonation of Ray Wilkins and then score two cracking goals
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Lambert does sometimes seem to overrate us. I think thats part of how tries to motivate players, keep their spirits up. I remember him last season raving about how good Bannan was, at the same time as many of us were absolutely sick of him. But soon after he dropped him and never played him again. So i generally take what he says with a pinch of salt, i think he sees the same things we do.
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Oh and I love Ron Vlaar, he's got a great attitude and has been excellent this year.
I agree, he has been really good.
It was always obvious to me Vlaar has every attribute required to be a top class central defender. The problem has always been he is being asked to do the job of two men. If you put him alongside a second experienced man (Olsson for example?) we'd have a solid central pairing.
Him and Okore would have been a superb pairing I reckon.
Yeah totally agree about that .
Would go with that too. They looked very promising for the short time they played together.
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Lambert does sometimes seem to overrate us. I think thats part of how tries to motivate players, keep their spirits up. I remember him last season raving about how good Bannan was, at the same time as many of us were absolutely sick of him. But soon after he dropped him and never played him again. So i generally take what he says with a pinch of salt, i think he sees the same things we do.
Good point. The best managers rarely openly criticise their players. I don't think Lambert ever has. I wonder what he says behind the scenes? What will he say to Bacuna about 'that' pass?
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Our best 11 is just about OK, shows the signings of Kozak and Tonev were poor decisions.
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Lambert does sometimes seem to overrate us. I think thats part of how tries to motivate players, keep their spirits up.
I think that's it.
He's dealing with what is pretty much a bunch of kids. At times confidence will be really fragile. That's why that 8-0 4-0 3-0 sequence over christmas last year was so damaging. It wasn't about zero points or the 15 goal GD hit, it was the fact that it totally bollocksed our confidence for months after.
he has to manage their confidence very carefully, and I would guess that is the reason why he says things like that.
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Our best 11 is just about OK, shows the signings of Kozak and Tonev were poor decisions.
Or it shows that not every player arrives in English football ready to go straight away, judge them at the end of the season at the earliest. I thought Kozak did ok today but whilst he was on there was a lack of energy about the whole team. Tonev looks to me like someone who, when it clicks, will go from average to a match winner over night.
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Our best 11 is just about OK, shows the signings of Kozak and Tonev were poor decisions.
I think those two players might turn out to be decent signings - let's not forget, Kozak was within an inch of scoring a very good goal tonight - but I'd like us to be in a situation where we had a strong enough squad to be able to blood them slowly.
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Lambert does sometimes seem to overrate us. I think thats part of how tries to motivate players, keep their spirits up. I remember him last season raving about how good Bannan was, at the same time as many of us were absolutely sick of him. But soon after he dropped him and never played him again. So i generally take what he says with a pinch of salt, i think he sees the same things we do.
Good point. The best managers rarely openly criticise their players. I don't think Lambert ever has. I wonder what he says behind the scenes? What will he say to Bacuna about 'that' pass?
I said last season when we had a decent last third of the season that for all the piss taking of the "we go again" it must have meant a lot to players to still be supported by the manager and to be getting picked after that month from hell. Must have done their long term confidence a lot of good to have the manager believing in them.
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I know it's the same for everyone but this stop start season is not doing us any favors. I mean our fixtures have been very eratic from that first 3 matches in a week then nothing for nearly 2. Since then I'm sure we have had another 2 weekends off.
It's been a strange season so far.
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The midfield is woeful, our two goals were scored by our two weakest midfielders Lambert must be aware that we are not good enough and will remedy it. Benteke is becoming a worry, the passion has gone out of his play and we need him to get it back quick, still we got a draw after a terrible display for most of the game.
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Lambert does sometimes seem to overrate us. I think thats part of how tries to motivate players, keep their spirits up.
I think that's it.
He's dealing with what is pretty much a bunch of kids. At times confidence will be really fragile. That's why that 8-0 4-0 3-0 sequence over christmas last year was so damaging. It wasn't about zero points or the 15 goal GD hit, it was the fact that it totally bollocksed our confidence for months after.
he has to manage their confidence very carefully, and I would guess that is the reason why he says things like that.
The opposite of Houllier then...
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All the negative comments are obvious and mostly true. Poor formation, players out of position etc.
But I thought Westwood was getting unwarranted stick throughout the game. Even in the first half he was the only one getting the ball down and playing. Granted he was outmuscled but presumably sylla and kea were meant to be doing that job for him. In the second half I thought he was excellent. He's coming back into form for me.
How people can suggest he was one of our worst players is beyond me. Worse than baker, Clark, bacuna, sylla and Tonev? Absolutely no chance.
I also thought kozak was not too bad.
The 3412 we switched to was an interesting one. Some seemed to think we were playing like that to begin with me bacuna!
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Well, it wasn't boring.
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I think that game proved how far we come, we are currently a mid table team , a year ago we were a bottom 4 team. Another point in the bag, and we coninue to grow
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Well, it wasn't boring.
It was better than the cricket.
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I was dreading the second half to be honest, part of me would almost have taken the 2-0! Had an ominously bad feel about it. Restored a lot of pride in that second half. Lacked a bit of quality, but the excitement was there. All those Baggies booing some of our long balls so pathetically must have missed the number of times they did it. Ah well fuck 'em.
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All the negative comments are obvious and mostly true. Poor formation, players out of position etc.
But I thought Westwood was getting unwarranted stick throughout the game. Even in the first half he was the only one getting the ball down and playing. Granted he was outmuscled but presumably sylla and kea were meant to be doing that job for him. In the second half I thought he was excellent. He's coming back into form for me.
How people can suggest he was one of our worst players is beyond me. Worse than baker, Clark, bacuna, sylla and Tonev? Absolutely no chance.
I also thought kozak was not too bad.
The 3412 we switched to was an interesting one. Some seemed to think we were playing like that to begin with me bacuna!
You seem to have been watching the same game as me
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Surely Lambert must realise the midfield lacks sufficient movement, drive and pace. Pace and poise is the problem at the back too. However, it was a good come back and a great finish from Westwood, even though he's not a favourite of mine. Benteke was worryingly lack-lustre again.
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I think that game proved how far we come, we are currently a mid table team , a year ago we were a bottom 4 team. Another point in the bag, and we coninue to grow
Yeah I'd go along with that. Beat Sunderland at the weekend and we'll be going down to Fulham on a decent little run.
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OptaJoe @OptaJoe 30m
7 - Aston Villa have won seven points from losing positions in the Premier League this season, more than any other side. Update.
dat mental strength.
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Loads of trouble at the station after the game. Morons from both clubs involved. Ridiculous that people can't behave themselves.
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Well have to be happy with that after a diabolical opening 20 minutes. Weird how this was a flip of the same fixture last season.
I think it was an error Lambert naming an unchanged team as despite the win we weren't exactly convincing against Cardiff.
Probably Tonev was our only bright spot in the first half.
And why on earth were WBA trying to flog Shane Long to Hull? Wish they'd have gone Anelka upfront as they usually do.
Be interested to see what starting team we get on Saturday now.
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It's hard to pick the villa side at the moment. Is Luna going to be fit? Is Delph really fit - he didn't look it to me.
I wonder if we'll go 3412 again? If Delph is fit he could play alongside Westwood with Luna at left back.
I really don't like the diamond though, especially with those players.
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Loads of trouble at the station after the game. Morons from both clubs involved. Ridiculous that people can't behave themselves.
It is, but when you have derby matches on evenings it's not a surprise. Plenty of time to get tanked up etc. should never have been played on a night. Thanks sky!
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Lambert got out of jail tonight though, I mean I've always supported him and backed him even through the shitness of last season
but when you pick a line up that from the off is bloody rubbish, then at half time think the best thing you can do is send the same lot out again, its pretty piss poor in my view
we could have easily been out of the game by half time had WBA took there chances that sausage bloke missed the sitter of the season, so why wait when its obvious something has to change
lost a bit of faith in the manager tonight if i'm honest,
he wasn't pro active enough earlier on, the fact his subs are being lauded as inspired is just nonsense, at least one or two should have been on a lot earlier, and the likes of Sylla and Tonev should never have made the half time whistle
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Losing to those bitter bastards was unthinkable and I don't care how poor we were in the first half, because in the second half we took the game to them and showed balls of steel to get back level. Also what a fantastic goal from Westwood!
Well done, Villa!
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All the negative comments are obvious and mostly true. Poor formation, players out of position etc.
But I thought Westwood was getting unwarranted stick throughout the game. Even in the first half he was the only one getting the ball down and playing. Granted he was outmuscled but presumably sylla and kea were meant to be doing that job for him. In the second half I thought he was excellent. He's coming back into form for me.
How people can suggest he was one of our worst players is beyond me. Worse than baker, Clark, bacuna, sylla and Tonev? Absolutely no chance.
I also thought kozak was not too bad.
The 3412 we switched to was an interesting one. Some seemed to think we were playing like that to begin with me bacuna!
You seem to have been watching the same game as me
And me! At least Westwood tried to play the ball on the ground. Vlaar apart the rest of them were woeful for the first half. Relieved with a point but at 2-2 I reckon we could have gone on to win it - which would have been a wonderful robbery!
A French mate watched the game with me tonight and at half time he just said to me "why are they so scared of the ball?"
Am gutted that it is now 6 games without beating them. For most of my life we have completely dominated them but they have grown a pair in the last few seasons.
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Anyone who reckons we got battered and were lucky, have a look at the stats and in particular the first half ones.
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http://fourfourtwo.com/statszone/share.aspx?i=0Ms9x
West woods performance. 88% pass completion, several interceptions and a goal. That'll do for me. Not been great this season but if we can get him and Lowton playing well we will start to improve our form.
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Amazes me how only Albion chances seem to count as could have been goals. Must have imagined the Myhill saves and us hitting the crossbar.
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Anyone who reckons we got battered and were lucky, have a look at the stats and in particular the first half ones.
Indeed. I would argue they got lucky with their first half chances and we got unlucky with ours.
Still our midfield is a concern. We really were weak there the whole game.
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lost a bit of faith in the manager tonight if i'm honest,
he wasn't pro active enough earlier on, the fact his subs are being lauded as inspired is just nonsense, at least one or two should have been on a lot earlier, and the likes of Sylla and Tonev should never have made the half time whistle
I can't see how this is the case. Look at our results compared to last season, look at how we are getting points from losing positions. We are improving, no doubt about it. Not all of our performances will be convincing and not all of our signings will be perfect, but we're showing signs of progress. I think come the end of the season, we will be in a lot healthier position than last season.
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49% possession away from home against Brazil 1970.
Shots: Us 15 them 11
On target: Us 7 them 4
Yeah we were real lucky and got battered.
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Much as the result Papered over some cracks, we did start with half a team out. Arguably three of our first choice back four, including both left backs, Delph, and two of our front three plus an out of sorts benteke.
Still could really do with beating Sunderland though. Hopefully we can start some of those who came on today
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Amusingly as well, they couldn't pull 25,000 for their cup final.
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Lambert got out of jail tonight though, I mean I've always supported him and backed him even through the shitness of last season
but when you pick a line up that from the off is bloody rubbish, then at half time think the best thing you can do is send the same lot out again, its pretty piss poor in my view
we could have easily been out of the game by half time had WBA took there chances that sausage bloke missed the sitter of the season, so why wait when its obvious something has to change
lost a bit of faith in the manager tonight if i'm honest,
he wasn't pro active enough earlier on, the fact his subs are being lauded as inspired is just nonsense, at least one or two should have been on a lot earlier, and the likes of Sylla and Tonev should never have made the half time whistle
While I know exactly where you're coming from, I think you still have to appreciate the balancing act of management means you can't always be as mercenary as you'd like when it comes to making certain decisions.
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lost a bit of faith in the manager tonight if i'm honest,
he wasn't pro active enough earlier on, the fact his subs are being lauded as inspired is just nonsense, at least one or two should have been on a lot earlier, and the likes of Sylla and Tonev should never have made the half time whistle
I can't see how this is the case. Look at our results compared to last season, look at how we are getting points from losing positions. We are improving, no doubt about it. Not all of our performances will be convincing and not all of our signings will be perfect, but we're showing signs of progress. I think come the end of the season, we will be in a lot healthier position than last season.
I was thinking about this after the match.
I think it's misleading to think too much about the sort of side we are this season (so far) and how we were last season.
Last season, we were defensively abject. This season - despite the evidence of earlier this evening - we are much improved at the back. To counter that, we've not been as good going forward as we were for much of last season.
I also wonder if we're comparing how we are this season not with "last season" but with "the last couple of months of last season". We improved a lot towards the end, but that doesn't mean the first, dreadful, two thirds of that season didn't happen or that the weaknesses have all gone away yet.
This season we seem to have been either really excellent or really shit, with next to nothing in between. In a couple of matches we've seen this in the same game - Man City at home and this evening, for example.
I think we're going to have to put it with that for a lot longer.
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Is Lambert an idiot or a genius? Answers on an Irn Bru beer mat
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All the negative comments are obvious and mostly true. Poor formation, players out of position etc.
But I thought Westwood was getting unwarranted stick throughout the game. Even in the first half he was the only one getting the ball down and playing. Granted he was outmuscled but presumably sylla and kea were meant to be doing that job for him. In the second half I thought he was excellent. He's coming back into form for me.
How people can suggest he was one of our worst players is beyond me. Worse than baker, Clark, bacuna, sylla and Tonev? Absolutely no chance.
I also thought Kozak was not too bad.
The 3412 we switched to was an interesting one. Some seemed to think we were playing like that to begin with me bacuna!
Agree about Westwood and there were some pretty awful performances out there of all those you mention
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Incredibly naive team selection and strange tactics from Lambert, but I'm glad he had the guts to finally make the necessary changes. Until the subs we were utterly dire. I think the enthusiasm of Gabby, and his understanding of what a derby match really means, helped to galvanise us in the second half. I'm thankful for the draw, and full credit to the players for pulling it back. But the complacent attitude prior to the fight back still worries the hell out of me.
As it should, James. Tonight's result will no doubt paper over the cracks of what is a tactically clueless manager. At times it was embarrassing. Still, he lives to live another day and let's pray he starts to learn a few basics, passing would be a great place to start. Tonight he gets no credit from me, we drew despite him, not because of him.
Our squad is very limited and he shouldn't pretend otherwise.
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Oh well we are still on course for the nothing season I was hoping for.I see that has a little bit of progress.
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Is Lambert an idiot or a genius? Answers on an Irn Bru beer mat
Why does he have to be either?
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Amusingly as well, they couldn't pull 25,000 for their cup final.
I did chuckle when I saw 24 odd thousand, and thought Lambert was bang on about the size of the 2 clubs.
I watched bits, and we were wretched at times, and decent at others. Kind of the way we have been all season. But then last season we were wretched more of the time, with less bottle.
Some of the comments are way OTT in my opinion, and the stats clearly show even at 2-0 we were still in the game. No manager is going to make 3 subs at half time, and bringing 3 on at once in the 57th minute is still a gamble. Sure Lowton should have started with Bacuna further up but he didn't, and the players and manager dug themselves out a hole they created together. 15 points. 25 more for safety. 30 more for mid table comfort. 35 more for a pretty good improvement on last season. On to Saturday.
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That crowd is awful.
Capacity: 27,000
Attendance: 24,900
Villa fans: 2,500
22,400 tickets sold to Albion fans. For their cup final
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Is Lambert an idiot or a genius? Answers on an Irn Bru beer mat
Why does he have to be either?
What ? Did you watch the game ? The guy is clueless
That opening line up and tactics were a disgrace. We were very lucky not to be 5 down by HT.
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I guess it's encouraging that we seem to be picking up points despite producing some truly shit football for long periods of games. Though I still think Lambert picks some strange set-ups. Injuries force his hand, I suppose, but he should be addressing that in the transfer market, and Kozak wasn't the sort of signing we really needed in my opinion. We needed someone more mobile.
Because I stick to my belief that we are a poor side without Gabby. We can afford to lose anyone else to injury - even Benteke. But not Gabby. His running and movement is invaluable. If you don't have pace somewhere in your team in the Prem, you're buggered. Which is why Lambert's next attacking signing needs to be able to run like shit off a stick.
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That crowd is awful.
Capacity: 27,000
Attendance: 24,900
Villa fans: 2,500
22,400 tickets sold to Albion fans. For their cup final
Who cares. They are a Micky mouse club.
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Agree with the point about the so called Best Albion team for decades and they could not put an abject Villa team to the sword. Second Half we were still not great but they offered very little.
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Aston Villa have won seven points from losing positions in the Premier League this season, more than any other side.
Source: Opta
I thought this was quite interesting. One that we fall behind, but the main point being we have something about us to fight back. It's a good quality to have.
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Our best 11 is just about OK, shows the signings of Kozak and Tonev were poor decisions.
I think those two players might turn out to be decent signings - let's not forget, Kozak was within an inch of scoring a very good goal tonight - but I'd like us to be in a situation where we had a strong enough squad to be able to blood them slowly.
I imagine that was the plan but a frustrating succession of injuries has meant that they have had to step up. It looks as though we're getting a few back now so hopefully we'll have some options.
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Is Lambert an idiot or a genius? Answers on an Irn Bru beer mat
Why does he have to be either?
What ? Did you watch the game ? The guy is clueless
That opening line up and tactics were a disgrace. We were very lucky not to be 5 down by HT.
So our chances don't count? Only Albion ones? Considering they had 4 shots on target in the game would have been some achievement to score 5 times in half a game.
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Amusingly as well, they couldn't pull 25,000 for their cup final.
Just 22k home fans there. Absolutely pathetic.
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Aston Villa have won seven points from losing positions in the Premier League this season, more than any other side.
Source: Opta
I thought this was quite interesting. One that we fall behind, but the main point being we have something about us to fight back. It's a good quality to have.
And what a contrast with last year...
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Incredibly naive team selection and strange tactics from Lambert, but I'm glad he had the guts to finally make the necessary changes. Until the subs we were utterly dire. I think the enthusiasm of Gabby, and his understanding of what a derby match really means, helped to galvanise us in the second half. I'm thankful for the draw, and full credit to the players for pulling it back. But the complacent attitude prior to the fight back still worries the hell out of me.
As it should, James. Tonight's result will no doubt paper over the cracks of what is a tactically clueless manager. At times it was embarrassing. Still, he lives to live another day and let's pray he starts to learn a few basics, passing would be a great place to start. Tonight he gets no credit from me, we drew despite him, not because of him.
Our squad is very limited and he shouldn't pretend otherwise.
Decent post.
They used to say the measure of a decent team was how many players you had would get into the Man Utd side. I look at our squad these days and struggle to find any. Benteke included.
Now the counter argument is, are you surprised.......considering we can no longer compete with half arsed clubs like West Brom financially.
So you could say Lambert is doing a good job keeping us on a par with them while spending less than Clarke.
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Is Lambert an idiot or a genius? Answers on an Irn Bru beer mat
Why does he have to be either?
What ? Did you watch the game ? The guy is clueless
That opening line up and tactics were a disgrace. We were very lucky not to be 5 down by HT.
In that case what he did in the second half was the work of a genius.
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Our best 11 is just about OK, shows the signings of Kozak and Tonev were poor decisions.
I think those two players might turn out to be decent signings - let's not forget, Kozak was within an inch of scoring a very good goal tonight - but I'd like us to be in a situation where we had a strong enough squad to be able to blood them slowly.
I have no problem with Kozak as a stand in centre forward but Tonev is incredibly frustrating.
It is not helped by Bentekes loss of form, confidence and comitment
I imagine that was the plan but a frustrating succession of injuries has meant that they have had to step up. It looks as though we're getting a few back now so hopefully we'll have some options.
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did lowton play any part?
No. He was on the bench and stayed there.
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I would flip it. How many of the west brom team would get into our side?
Olsson? Maybe. None of their attackers are as good as ours (including shane long). Their midfielders are solid but nothing beyond KEA level players imho.
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Mulumbu is a cracking player in my opinion.
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Is Lambert an idiot or a genius? Answers on an Irn Bru beer mat
Why does he have to be either?
What ? Did you watch the game ? The guy is clueless
That opening line up and tactics were a disgrace. We were very lucky not to be 5 down by HT.
In that case what he did in the second half was the work of a genius.
Nope. He did what the fans screamed for.
Crap manager, crap tactics, 2 points dropped.
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we've just come back from two down against a team who, all joking aside, are more experienced than us and are at least two years further down the team-building path. Anyone who can criticise that should ask themselves what more we can do.
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I would flip it. How many of the west brom team would get into our side?
Olsson? Maybe. None of their attackers are as good as ours (including shane long). Their midfielders are solid but nothing beyond KEA level players imho.
Mulumbu, Morrisson, Long, Brunt. All would walk into our team.
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Incredibly naive team selection and strange tactics from Lambert, but I'm glad he had the guts to finally make the necessary changes. Until the subs we were utterly dire. I think the enthusiasm of Gabby, and his understanding of what a derby match really means, helped to galvanise us in the second half. I'm thankful for the draw, and full credit to the players for pulling it back. But the complacent attitude prior to the fight back still worries the hell out of me.
As it should, James. Tonight's result will no doubt paper over the cracks of what is a tactically clueless manager. At times it was embarrassing. Still, he lives to live another day and let's pray he starts to learn a few basics, passing would be a great place to start. Tonight he gets no credit from me, we drew despite him, not because of him.
Our squad is very limited and he shouldn't pretend otherwise.
Decent post.
They used to say the measure of a decent team was how many players you had would get into the Man Utd side. I look at our squad these days and struggle to find any. Benteke included.
Now the counter argument is, are you surprised.......considering we can no longer compete with half arsed clubs like West Brom financially.
So you could say Lambert is doing a good job keeping us on a par with them while spending less than Clarke.
I'd be interested to see the numbers on transfers. It's well known Albion don't pay more than 30k a week for anybody, which is why Long wanted out from there. Obviously he had another thousand reasons, and who can blame him.
What's more important right now is our confidence. A defeat tonight could have put our club in free fall. Being humiliated by that rabble would not have been taken lightly. Coming back from 2-0 down papers over the cracks but hopefully the players are buzzing and we can go on and produce a great home victory against Sunderland, not that I think we will. We'll probably beat them but I've little faith in our play. We don't seem to do tactics, which always plays into the opposition's hands.
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Is Lambert an idiot or a genius? Answers on an Irn Bru beer mat
Why does he have to be either?
What ? Did you watch the game ? The guy is clueless
That opening line up and tactics were a disgrace. We were very lucky not to be 5 down by HT.
Yes I did.
Did you watch the bit where he made three substitutions at once, and we scored twice to take a point? In a match we'd been two down after 10 or so minutes, away to a club who were clearly playing their cup final?
If you're going to use words like "clueless" have a good think about what has just happened first.
My point was not that he's a genius. It was that "genius" and "clueless" are two absolute extremes which are of no use whatsoever.
He's not a genius and he's not clueless - which is the exact description that you could give every manager in the top flight at the moment.
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we've just come back from two down against a team who, all joking aside, are more experienced than us and are at least two years further down the team-building path. Anyone who can criticise that should ask themselves what more we can do.
Start passing the ball would be a start. Even at non-league level, it's not asking that much.
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Lambert got out of jail tonight though, I mean I've always supported him and backed him even through the shitness of last season
but when you pick a line up that from the off is bloody rubbish, then at half time think the best thing you can do is send the same lot out again, its pretty piss poor in my view
we could have easily been out of the game by half time had WBA took there chances that sausage bloke missed the sitter of the season, so why wait when its obvious something has to change
lost a bit of faith in the manager tonight if i'm honest,
he wasn't pro active enough earlier on, the fact his subs are being lauded as inspired is just nonsense, at least one or two should have been on a lot earlier, and the likes of Sylla and Tonev should never have made the half time whistle
While I know exactly where you're coming from, I think you still have to appreciate the balancing act of management means you can't always be as mercenary as you'd like when it comes to making certain decisions.
He put three subs on together to make it look like the performance was completely the fault of the team. Lambert is too much like O'Neill. He should have changed it much earlier. He is also no better than Alex McLeish, who suffered dogs abuse.
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I have no problem with Kozak as a stand in centre forward but Tonev is incredibly frustrating.
Tonev looks to me like a player who is absolutely desperate to do well and, if anything, trying too hard to do so (hence the shots from anywhere within sight of goal, for example).
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He should have changed it much earlier. He is also no better than Alex McLeish, who suffered dogs abuse.
Oh, please. Really?
At the very least, Lambert's base instinct is to go for the win. McLeish's is to go for a point, or to keep the score down if he can't get that.
Lambert is ten times the manager McLeish is, on the basis of that alone.
I can't imagine ever seeing Lambert fist pumping the air after leading 1-0 at home to Stoke, conceding on 80 mins and seeing the game out to take a point.
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we've just come back from two down against a team who, all joking aside, are more experienced than us and are at least two years further down the team-building path. Anyone who can criticise that should ask themselves what more we can do.
Exactly.
They definitely bossed us for the first half using knowhow as much as anything.
But if you took these two sides - hypothetically - and replayed this game in 3 years time man for man, I reckon there'd be only one winner.
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I have no problem with Kozak as a stand in centre forward but Tonev is incredibly frustrating.
Tonev looks to me like a player who is absolutely desperate to do well and, if anything, trying too hard to do so (hence the shots from anywhere within sight of goal, for example).
I've mentioned before that Tonev reminds me of when Tony Morley first joined us from Burnley. You could see the raw talent was there but he hadn't a clue how to use it. Give him time and hopefully like Tony it will come. Saying that, he shouldn't be anywhere near the first team right now.
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Those of you watching on TV may have got a much better view than those of us in the ground but I find a lot of criticism on here a bit unfair. We got caught out by a long punt and a silly mistake and 2-0 at 10 mins or so. A lot of teams would have sunk without trace after that but we didn't. I still thought we were the better team in the FIRST half. Had more chances and more shots on and off target. We started the second very well without getting close to scoring and Lambert did exactly what was required with 3 subs. Once those 3 were on we had more precision and better drive. The goals were well deserved and yes well done to our midfielders for scoring when the forwards failed to do so. Lot of positives tonight.
Negatives were form of Benteke and Baker. Benteke appears clumsy and slow at the moment and Baker got caught out for both goals by not being close to long.
As someone said I was surprised that he stayed on and Kozak went off. Need to sort out Tonev. Whilst his shooting was not wild tonight it was weak and wasteful. I think he will be more useful next season.
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I would flip it. How many of the west brom team would get into our side?
Olsson? Maybe. None of their attackers are as good as ours (including shane long). Their midfielders are solid but nothing beyond KEA level players imho.
Mulumbu, Morrisson, Long, Brunt. All would walk into our team.
Yes, of course. Ditch that no hopper Benteke and bring in Shane Long.
Considering they're so brilliant why, after the toughest start to a season I can remember and a number of significant injuries, are they ahead of us only by the slimmest possible margin?
The reality is we're at a similar level at the moment Considering what we've been through over the past few seasons I take as a sign of progress.
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I'm not buying this Lambert is ok cos of the 3 subs.
It was a monumental fuck up on his part leaving those guys out + Lowton.
The guy is very very naive.
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Let's not forget, too, poor defending was involved, but Shane Long also scored what will almost definitely be the two best goals he's ever going to score.
He's never struck me as very good - pretty much the sort of player you'd expect to see at a shit nothing club like Albion - but both his goals today were absolutely top drawer. If he had 1000 chances to score that Bergkampesque goal he scored today, I'd imagine he'd manage it once. At best.
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He should have changed it much earlier. He is also no better than Alex McLeish, who suffered dogs abuse.
Oh, please. Really?
At the very least, Lambert's base instinct is to go for the win. McLeish's is to go for a point, or to keep the score down if he can't get that.
Lambert is ten times the manager McLeish is, on the basis of that alone.
I can't imagine ever seeing Lambert fist pumping the air after leading 1-0 at home to Stoke, conceding on 80 mins and seeing the game out to take a point.
That first half was fucking pathetic. We needed players capable of dishing some stick out instead of the feeble performance they gave. Lambert is not the manager that he was made out to be. He has got away with murder.
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I'm not buying this Lambert is ok cos of the 3 subs.
It was a monumental fuck up on his part leaving those guys out + Lowton.
The guy is very very naive.
Don't you think he did well with the substitutions?
Regardless of you don't think he should have started with that line up, don't you reckon he did well to get us a point out of that? Given that we were two goals down after 11 minutes?
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I'm not buying this Lambert is ok cos of the 3 subs.
It was a monumental fuck up on his part leaving those guys out + Lowton.
The guy is very very naive.
So he should have started 5 players, those 3 plus Benteke and Guzan, who have had recent injury problems. What if we'd lost a few them after half an hour. Would it have been the right thing to start them? Or was it wise to not have half your starting lineup not fully fit?
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What ? Did you watch the game ? The guy is clueless
That opening line up and tactics were a disgrace. We were very lucky not to be 5 down by HT.
Incredible. Just tell me HOW they would have scored 5?
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He should have changed it much earlier. He is also no better than Alex McLeish, who suffered dogs abuse.
Oh, please. Really?
At the very least, Lambert's base instinct is to go for the win. McLeish's is to go for a point, or to keep the score down if he can't get that.
Lambert is ten times the manager McLeish is, on the basis of that alone.
I can't imagine ever seeing Lambert fist pumping the air after leading 1-0 at home to Stoke, conceding on 80 mins and seeing the game out to take a point.
That first half was fucking pathetic. We needed players capable of dishing some stick out instead of the feeble performance they gave. Lambert is not the manager that he was made out to be. He has got away with murder.
It's not so much the first half performance bit I was disagreeing with, it was the no better than McLeish bit.
Even if I accepted they were managers of equal capability, I'd take the one who tries to win games over the one who doesn't every single time. Lambert has got plenty of faults, but I struggle to imagine him managing to crush the spirit as much as McLeish did in one season.
It was horrible.
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we've just come back from two down against a team who, all joking aside, are more experienced than us and are at least two years further down the team-building path. Anyone who can criticise that should ask themselves what more we can do.
Not go two down in the first place would be a start.
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What ? Did you watch the game ? The guy is clueless
That opening line up and tactics were a disgrace. We were very lucky not to be 5 down by HT.
Incredible. Just tell me HOW they would have scored 5?
I asked the same thing, got no answer surprisingly.
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I'm not buying this Lambert is ok cos of the 3 subs.
It was a monumental fuck up on his part leaving those guys out + Lowton.
The guy is very very naive.
So he should have started 5 players, those 3 plus Benteke and Guzan, who have had recent injury problems. What if we'd lost a few them after half an hour. Would it have been the right thing to start them? Or was it wise to not have half your starting lineup not fully fit?
Like he said, those three players didn't return to training until Friday.
It was a big gamble putting them on at all - as Gary Neville pointed out, after. Any one of them could have suffered an injury recurrence, and we might have lost the game anyway.
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We should have acted sooner to be honest. 2-3 subs at half time.
At this level though, we've just had an indication on how vital our best players will be. We took three players who arguably aren't good enough for this level (yet/possibly ever) and brought on Prem quality.
It got us back into it. That's not a smart tactical substitution either, it was one desperately obvious that should have been identified sooner, or we should have started with.
Who knows we may have started with those 3, been more effective and it could have been a different game. Maybe 3 points in the bag on 70 mins, then take any of the flagging players off if needs be. Honestly I think you put our front 3 out, and Delph in the mid and we're a better side than WBA. Their backline struggled once we put a bit of pace and drive on.
My major worry isn't Lambo's tactical naivity though. Right now it's Bentekes form. I didn't think he was up to his best before his injuries. But you could let that slide given he still netted 5 goals. But since the injuries he's been even more off the pace and off the boil. He's look a little lackadaisical too which is as worrying as his fitness.
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I'm not buying this Lambert is ok cos of the 3 subs.
It was a monumental fuck up on his part leaving those guys out + Lowton.
The guy is very very naive.
Yes, ridiculously naive to leave out three players just back from injury. They should have played from the start, the full 90 in fact, be it running, walking or crawling. Who cares if they break down and miss the rest of the season through injury?
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I'm not buying this Lambert is ok cos of the 3 subs.
It was a monumental fuck up on his part leaving those guys out + Lowton.
The guy is very very naive.
Correct. Then he did the stroppy three player sub which always means 'you lot are crap'. It was not tactical at all. The bloke had fucked up again and is another O'Neill with his stubborness.
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I'm not buying this Lambert is ok cos of the 3 subs.
It was a monumental fuck up on his part leaving those guys out + Lowton.
The guy is very very naive.
Don't you think if it was not for a huge amount of injuries our squad has he might have picked a stronger first eleven?
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I'm not buying this Lambert is ok cos of the 3 subs.
It was a monumental fuck up on his part leaving those guys out + Lowton.
The guy is very very naive.
So he should have started 5 players, those 3 plus Benteke and Guzan, who have had recent injury problems. What if we'd lost a few them after half an hour. Would it have been the right thing to start them? Or was it wise to not have half your starting lineup not fully fit?
Like he said, those three players didn't return to training until Friday.
It was a big gamble putting them on at all - as Gary Neville pointed out, after. Any one of them could have suffered an injury recurrence, and we might have lost the game anyway.
I mean I'd have started 2 out of 3 of the subs who came on. I'd rather see them start and play 60-70 minutes, rather than coming on at 55 (when the game looked gone, but thankfully wasn't).
We were utterly lifeless in midfield and the movement up front until 55 mins was appalling. West Brom had it way too easy.
Even if Delph's right leg fell off, I'd still play him over any of our other midfielders. If they're fit enough for the bench, they should be fit enough to play, and you should play your best players at this level.
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Had Lambert started with those 3 and they got crocked he would have got pelters. He said that Gabby and Delph only started to train Friday...would have been plain stupid to just chuck them in after a win last time out...he changed it, he got a reaction, he got a result. Hindsight is wonderful thing...
At not lets forget the opposition don't just roll over cos they are playing us every week...this is a side who have beaten Man Utd away, drawn with Arsenal at home and were pretty unlucky to only get a point at Chelsea last week, they are no mugs...
It's gonna be up and down all season...but it's getting better.
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Mulumbu, Morrisson, Long, Brunt. All would walk into our team.
Tell me exactly what Long did other than benefitting from bad mistakes from us twice?
Brunt was useless all night. Imobile and wasteful gobbing at the ref and not much else.
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The lack of calm in possession is still extremely infuriating, but I actually think this is a calculated risk from Lambert - he wants to keep them up-for-it and slightly unhinged going forwards as that sort of momentum is the best way to keep the young players' confidence on the crest of a wave. Long term? It can't work. But in the short term, he's taken a calculated gamble - much as he did with the triple substitution tonight - and we have to accept that he's not taken the decision lightly and hope it works out.
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I'm not buying this Lambert is ok cos of the 3 subs.
It was a monumental fuck up on his part leaving those guys out + Lowton.
The guy is very very naive.
Correct. Then he did the stroppy three player sub which always means 'you lot are crap'. It was not tactical at all. The bloke had fucked up again and is another O'Neill with his stubborness.
The players were not fit enough to start, they've hardly trained. He's got to manage his squad over the entire season not just tonight. If he had risked them and they limped off people would be slagging him off for risking them.
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We aren't the only club to ever have important players on the bench who if really needed are fit enough to put in half an hour but nowhere near fit enough to play more. Remember a nowhere near fit Fabregas a few years ago coming on after an hour and changing the game?
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If there's one thing I'm really getting bloody bored of its head tennis. That seems to be one of our preferred tactics, but clearly our players need to practice the art a bit more! ;D
In terms of how badly we passed the ball, I expected no different, not least because you rarely get sexy football in an English derby. That some of our boys still struggle with 5 yard passes, is a bit worrying though.
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I hate to change shifts and juggle loads of stuff. I'm glad I kept my ticket. What a game 2,500 Villa sang for 90 mins. 22,500 Bagheads were so so quiet.
Lambert got it right in the end.
Silhillvilla so glad you never brought my ticket. A 'fan' supports ups and downs.
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I'm not buying this Lambert is ok cos of the 3 subs.
It was a monumental fuck up on his part leaving those guys out + Lowton.
The guy is very very naive.
Correct. Then he did the stroppy three player sub which always means 'you lot are crap'. It was not tactical at all. The bloke had fucked up again and is another O'Neill with his stubborness.
The players were not fit enough to start, they've hardly trained. He's got to manage his squad over the entire season not just tonight. If he had risked them and they limped off people would be slagging him off for risking them.
If he'd have started them and we lost one or two for most/all of the season reckon those slating him for not starting them would be saying he's a great manager and it was the right decision?
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Mulumbu, Morrisson, Long, Brunt. All would walk into our team.
Tell me exactly what Long did other than benefitting from bad mistakes from us twice?
Brunt was useless all night. Imobile and wasteful gobbing at the ref and not much else.
I've never rated Long much, but those were two exceptionally classy finishes. We did make mistakes leading up to it, but the way he put them away was excellent, and he kept our back line on their toes for a good hour. He worked the channels well and won a few free kicks.
Martin O Neill probably got through a whole box of kleenex watching the game.
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Shane Long is Weimann like. Works his bollocks off, runs all game, harasses defenders and scores a few, with the odd ones being top class.
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We aren't the only club to ever have important players on the bench who if really needed are fit enough to put in half an hour but nowhere near fit enough to play more. Remember a nowhere near fit Fabregas a few years ago coming on after an hour and changing the game?
Whatever the state of our players, I hope he doesn't put that starting 11 out too many more times this season. I would have liked to have seen 1 or 2 of the young lads get into the squad to try and shine.
Certainly all three of the subs looked fresh enough when they came on.
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Putting our performance to one side for a minute I just wanted to say what a pleasure it was after the games this weekend to see a fast, frenetic local derby refereed excellently...Oliver is easily the next best after Webb....
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I'm not buying this Lambert is ok cos of the 3 subs.
It was a monumental fuck up on his part leaving those guys out + Lowton.
The guy is very very naive.
Correct. Then he did the stroppy three player sub which always means 'you lot are crap'. It was not tactical at all. The bloke had fucked up again and is another O'Neill with his stubborness.
In at least one aspect I think he's the complete opposite of MON. Lambert actually believes in every player in his squad.
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Correct. Then he did the stroppy three player sub which always means 'you lot are crap'. It was not tactical at all. The bloke had fucked up again and is another O'Neill with his stubborness.
DC5 you paid your money and are entitled to your opinion. You can see it the way you did or recognise it as game changer ploy. When Fergie did this sort of thing he was of course genius however Lambert is stroppy and stubborn?
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Shane Long is Weimann like. Works his bollocks off, runs all game, harasses defenders and scores a few, with the odd ones being top class.
Andy unfortunately continued his trait this season of just fluffing his lines in front of goal and rushing his chances. He needs a bit of composure. The chance he got from a flick on was half decent but he snatched at it. That's almost happened with him every game that he'll have one chance like that.
He's got it in him to have smashed that into the top corner. Hopefully he'll get a goal against Sunderland and kick on.
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I'm not buying this Lambert is ok cos of the 3 subs.
It was a monumental fuck up on his part leaving those guys out + Lowton.
The guy is very very naive.
Correct. Then he did the stroppy three player sub which always means 'you lot are crap'. It was not tactical at all. The bloke had fucked up again and is another O'Neill with his stubborness.
The players were not fit enough to start, they've hardly trained. He's got to manage his squad over the entire season not just tonight. If he had risked them and they limped off people would be slagging him off for risking them.
It is debatable who was fit or not but that defence is like a colander and the midfield was weak also. We need to see some steel in there and can't keep blaming it on injuries.
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I'm not buying this Lambert is ok cos of the 3 subs.
It was a monumental fuck up on his part leaving those guys out + Lowton.
The guy is very very naive.
Don't you think if it was not for a huge amount of injuries our squad has he might have picked a stronger first eleven?
You could probably have stopped at "Don't you think?" And the answer would be a resounding "No. I made my mind up a long time ago".
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Great heart to come back from a losing position again, The boys don't give up.
Baker is clumsy and a ball watcher, like a donkey centre back from the 80's.
Tonev hang your boots up son.
Lots of negatives from that performance but the cracks have been papered over for now.
I still don't rate Lambert.
Up the Villa.
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We've just come back from the dead against a 'rival' and people are on here constantly whingeing. I don't think some will ever be happy.
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I'm not sure what to think on reflection. I guess a draw from 2-0 down against anybody has to be considered a good end result
But what about the shit beforehand ?
It's getting a bit tedious now to be fair. The Boggies passed us off the park for long portions of that match and to be frank, it's not on.
As for 'tactical genius' with the substitutions. Was there ANYONE in the away end not calling for those exact changes at half time ???
Against Cardiff, even my 11 year old nephew called the Lowton/Bacuna swap around before Lambert made it. It's not tactical genius, it's glaringly fucking obvious.
Thus, i'm still FAR from convinced even though a bit relieved
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Those cracks must be ever so well-protected, the amount of times they get papered over.
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I'm not buying this Lambert is ok cos of the 3 subs.
It was a monumental fuck up on his part leaving those guys out + Lowton.
The guy is very very naive.
Correct. Then he did the stroppy three player sub which always means 'you lot are crap'. It was not tactical at all. The bloke had fucked up again and is another O'Neill with his stubborness.
O'Neill would never have hauled 3 players off, especially one of his biggest signings, on 57 minutes.
As has been said a number of times, why on earth would he start with 5 players who have been injured, 3 of whom did not train until friday? It would have been a suicidal gamble.
IT is becoming more and more fashionable to bash Lambert at the moment, despite him having been here less than 18 months and had to completely build a squad on genuine peanuts, while losing an extraordinary amount of players to injury and being dealt to be fair, the fixture list from hell at the start of this season. To sit on 15 points tonight, is a damned good effort and about what most of us would have expected at this stage.
Just reading the comments, you would think we were given a full on twatting tonight, not got a 2-2 draw away at a side full of confidence, well established in their squad that have finished above us the last 2 seasons.
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I'm not buying this Lambert is ok cos of the 3 subs.
It was a monumental fuck up on his part leaving those guys out + Lowton.
The guy is very very naive.
Correct. Then he did the stroppy three player sub which always means 'you lot are crap'. It was not tactical at all. The bloke had fucked up again and is another O'Neill with his stubborness.
The players were not fit enough to start, they've hardly trained. He's got to manage his squad over the entire season not just tonight. If he had risked them and they limped off people would be slagging him off for risking them.
Is the correct answer. If any of the three of them had been fit to start, they would have done since all three are clearly part of the manager's "strongest 11." Describing it as a "monumental fuck up" is way over the top. And inaccurate.
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O'Neill would never have hauled 3 players off, especially one of his biggest signings, on 57 minutes.
As has been said a number of times, why on earth would he start with 5 players who have been injured, 3 of whom did not train until friday? It would have been a suicidal gamble.
IT is becoming more and more fashionable to bash Lambert at the moment, despite him having been here less than 18 months and had to completely build a squad on genuine peanuts, while losing an extraordinary amount of players to injury and being dealt to be fair, the fixture list from hell at the start of this season. To sit on 15 points tonight, is a damned good effort and about what most of us would have expected at this stage.
Just reading the comments, you would think we were given a full on twatting tonight, not got a 2-2 draw away at a side full of confidence, well established in their squad that have finished above us the last 2 seasons.
This. Some posters seen to think we should be Barcelona by now.
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I'm not buying this Lambert is ok cos of the 3 subs.
It was a monumental fuck up on his part leaving those guys out + Lowton.
The guy is very very naive.
Correct. Then he did the stroppy three player sub which always means 'you lot are crap'. It was not tactical at all. The bloke had fucked up again and is another O'Neill with his stubborness.
O'Neill would never have hauled 3 players off, especially one of his biggest signings, on 57 minutes.
As has been said a number of times, why on earth would he start with 5 players who have been injured, 3 of whom did not train until friday? It would have been a suicidal gamble.
IT is becoming more and more fashionable to bash Lambert at the moment, despite him having been here less than 18 months and had to completely build a squad on genuine peanuts, while losing an extraordinary amount of players to injury and being dealt to be fair, the fixture list from hell at the start of this season. To sit on 15 points tonight, is a damned good effort and about what most of us would have expected at this stage.
Just reading the comments, you would think we were given a full on twatting tonight, not got a 2-2 draw away at a side full of confidence, well established in their squad that have finished above us the last 2 seasons.
I can't bear reasoned, considered opinions like this, Ozzjim. Cut it out.
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If you can't enjoy coming back from two down in a local derby away from home and want to spend the evening moaning about the manage, I feel sorry for you.
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I'm not buying this Lambert is ok cos of the 3 subs.
It was a monumental fuck up on his part leaving those guys out + Lowton.
The guy is very very naive.
Correct. Then he did the stroppy three player sub which always means 'you lot are crap'. It was not tactical at all. The bloke had fucked up again and is another O'Neill with his stubborness.
The players were not fit enough to start, they've hardly trained. He's got to manage his squad over the entire season not just tonight. If he had risked them and they limped off people would be slagging him off for risking them.
Is the correct answer. If any of the three of them had been fit to start, they would have done since all three are clearly part of the manager's "strongest 11." Describing it as a "monumental fuck up" is way over the top. And inaccurate.
He brought them on too late. They were fit enough to be on the bench and Gabby, particularly, looked very fit. All is not well. We can all pretend it is but it isn't.
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O'Neill would never have hauled 3 players off, especially one of his biggest signings, on 57 minutes.
As has been said a number of times, why on earth would he start with 5 players who have been injured, 3 of whom did not train until friday? It would have been a suicidal gamble.
IT is becoming more and more fashionable to bash Lambert at the moment, despite him having been here less than 18 months and had to completely build a squad on genuine peanuts, while losing an extraordinary amount of players to injury and being dealt to be fair, the fixture list from hell at the start of this season. To sit on 15 points tonight, is a damned good effort and about what most of us would have expected at this stage.
Just reading the comments, you would think we were given a full on twatting tonight, not got a 2-2 draw away at a side full of confidence, well established in their squad that have finished above us the last 2 seasons.
This. Some posters seen to think we should be Barcelona by now.
I'd settle for Barcelona B right now.
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IT is becoming more and more fashionable to bash Lambert at the moment, despite him having been here less than 18 months and had to completely build a squad on genuine peanuts
42m spent by Lambert thus far, according to our own CEO (in 18 months in charge). Unless he was lying to the Villa Trust of course.
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They didn't return to training till Friday.
They're hardly being frozen out to prove a point - Lambert hardly stops talking about how much those three subs do for him.
Also, surely bringing them on too late would have meant at a point where we took nothing from the game?
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O'Neill would never have hauled 3 players off, especially one of his biggest signings, on 57 minutes.
As has been said a number of times, why on earth would he start with 5 players who have been injured, 3 of whom did not train until friday? It would have been a suicidal gamble.
IT is becoming more and more fashionable to bash Lambert at the moment, despite him having been here less than 18 months and had to completely build a squad on genuine peanuts, while losing an extraordinary amount of players to injury and being dealt to be fair, the fixture list from hell at the start of this season. To sit on 15 points tonight, is a damned good effort and about what most of us would have expected at this stage.
Just reading the comments, you would think we were given a full on twatting tonight, not got a 2-2 draw away at a side full of confidence, well established in their squad that have finished above us the last 2 seasons.
This. Some posters seen to think we should be Barcelona by now.
I'd settle for Barcelona B right now.
Give it some time. It is not going to happen overnight, and the more technically gifted players that will help us get there are the biggest gambles in reality. Tonev prime example. There is a player in there, but getting it shaped into a premier league, effective player, is clearly going to take a very dedicated coaching regime!
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IT is becoming more and more fashionable to bash Lambert at the moment, despite him having been here less than 18 months and had to completely build a squad on genuine peanuts
42m spent by Lambert thus far, according to our own CEO (in 18 months in charge). Unless he was lying to the Villa Trust of course.
To buy almost an entire new team.
Whilst getting shot of big earners, and massively reducing the wage bill.
I mean no offence here, I know it is all about opinions and I am far from convinced everything is amazing myself, but honestly, what do some of you expect from circumstances like that in 15 months?
Am I missing something?
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IT is becoming more and more fashionable to bash Lambert at the moment, despite him having been here less than 18 months and had to completely build a squad on genuine peanuts
42m spent by Lambert thus far, according to our own CEO (in 18 months in charge). Unless he was lying to the Villa Trust of course.
On how many players? Arsenal bought 1 for that. We have what 16 ish? Less than 3m per head? or 4 Nzogbia's? It sounds a grand amount, but in a short space of time, with big wage restrictions it is really not that much.
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Did he need to buy a whole new team ?
Answer. No
Of course not.
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IT is becoming more and more fashionable to bash Lambert at the moment, despite him having been here less than 18 months and had to completely build a squad on genuine peanuts, while losing an extraordinary amount of players to injury and being dealt to be fair, the fixture list from hell at the start of this season.
It is becoming more and more fashionable to use it as an excuse. Yes he needs time, yes he's had a few injuries but let's not pretend we look anything close to the team that finished last season. For me, there are major doubts about Lambert's tactics. Right now, judging from our performances this season, I really don't think he has any. That for me is a major concern, as unfashionable as it may be.
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Did he need to buy a whole new team ?
Answer. No
Of course not.
How many of McLeish's team would you have kept?
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The side his Norwich side took to bits on the final day would have been relegated without trace without the 6-7 first team players he signed last season.
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IT is becoming more and more fashionable to bash Lambert at the moment, despite him having been here less than 18 months and had to completely build a squad on genuine peanuts, while losing an extraordinary amount of players to injury and being dealt to be fair, the fixture list from hell at the start of this season.
It is becoming more and more fashionable to use it as an excuse. Yes he needs time, yes he's had a few injuries but let's not pretend we look anything close to the team that finished last season. For me, there are major doubts about Lambert's tactics. Right now, judging from our performances this season, I really don't think he has any. That for me is a major concern, as unfashionable as it may be.
Isn't it odd to be saying that right now, though, a few hours after he made three substitution and a tactical change to rescue a point from a game in which we conceded two goals in the first ten minutes?
Compare that with MON.
I don't think I can remember O'Neill ever making a tactical change, let alone one that worked.
Lambert is far from perfect but there is some seriously short term memory at work here if people are comparing him with O'Neill on that front.
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IT is becoming more and more fashionable to bash Lambert at the moment, despite him having been here less than 18 months and had to completely build a squad on genuine peanuts, while losing an extraordinary amount of players to injury and being dealt to be fair, the fixture list from hell at the start of this season.
It is becoming more and more fashionable to use it as an excuse. Yes he needs time, yes he's had a few injuries but let's not pretend we look anything close to the team that finished last season. For me, there are major doubts about Lambert's tactics. Right now, judging from our performances this season, I really don't think he has any. That for me is a major concern, as unfashionable as it may be.
I think he has tried the same as last term, but Benteke being injured, losing Okore, and more importantly Gabby and Weimann taking dips in form has rendered it significantly less effective than the closing 3 months of the season. Plus teams worked out what to expect. Since he has tried 3-4 systems, changed things around, and is clearly looking for a formula that can get us going again. Having none would be trotting out the same side and formation and hoping for the best, which he clearly does not do.
And looking about tonight, I think you are clearly in the winter chic selection of posters fashion wise.
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Correct. Then he did the stroppy three player sub which always means 'you lot are crap'. It was not tactical at all. The bloke had fucked up again and is another O'Neill with his stubborness.
DC5 you paid your money and are entitled to your opinion. You can see it the way you did or recognise it as game changer ploy. When Fergie did this sort of thing he was of course genius however Lambert is stroppy and stubborn?
When did Lambert ever make a first half substitution where the player coming off was not injured?
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I didn't watch the game as I was watching Shellac in Digbeth, but from the sounds of it Shane Long will never score a better goal in his career. Mainly because it was handed to him on a plate, and he's normally shit. In fact I've always thought he was shit. I'll take a draw against these muppets after 2-0 down, let's see who finishes higher (it'll be us).
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If we were passed off the park and were so woeful how did we have 49% possession? And more shots and more shots on target than Brazil 1970?
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I didn't watch the game as I was watching Shellac in Digbeth, but from the sounds of it Shane Long will never score a better goal in his career. Mainly because it was handed to him on a plate, and he's normally shit. In fact I've always thought he was shit. I'll take a draw against these muppets after 2-0 down, let's see who finishes higher (it'll be us).
Long isn't shit.
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Mulumbu, Morrisson, Long, Brunt. All would walk into our team.
Tell me exactly what Long did other than benefiting from bad mistakes from us twice?
Brunt was useless all night. Immobile and wasteful gobbing at the ref and not much else.
I've never rated Long much, but those were two exceptionally classy finishes. We did make mistakes leading up to it, but the way he put them away was excellent, and he kept our back line on their toes for a good hour. He worked the channels well and won a few free kicks.
Martin O Neill probably got through a whole box of kleenex watching the game.
What did Benteke do all game?
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I'm not buying this Lambert is ok cos of the 3 subs.
It was a monumental fuck up on his part leaving those guys out + Lowton.
The guy is very very naive.
Don't you think he did well with the substitutions?
Regardless of you don't think he should have started with that line up, don't you reckon he did well to get us a point out of that? Given that we were two goals down after 11 minutes?
bloody Robbie Mustoe said exactly the three subs for the three players at HT to be changed , you didnt need to be no expert to make those changes .
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IT is becoming more and more fashionable to bash Lambert at the moment, despite him having been here less than 18 months and had to completely build a squad on genuine peanuts, while losing an extraordinary amount of players to injury and being dealt to be fair, the fixture list from hell at the start of this season.
It is becoming more and more fashionable to use it as an excuse. Yes he needs time, yes he's had a few injuries but let's not pretend we look anything close to the team that finished last season. For me, there are major doubts about Lambert's tactics. Right now, judging from our performances this season, I really don't think he has any. That for me is a major concern, as unfashionable as it may be.
I think he has tried the same as last term, but Benteke being injured, losing Okore, and more importantly Gabby and Weimann taking dips in form has rendered it significantly less effective than the closing 3 months of the season. Plus teams worked out what to expect. Since he has tried 3-4 systems, changed things around, and is clearly looking for a formula that can get us going again. Having none would be trotting out the same side and formation and hoping for the best, which he clearly does not do.
And looking about tonight, I think you are clearly in the winter chic selection of posters fashion wise.
I'd say Lambert is absolutely hoping for the best as there doesn't appear to be a plan whatsoever. Rarely do you see a team so disjointed and incapable of stringing a few passes together. The less said about his formations the better. I'm still prepared to give him time, at least until the missing key players return but he's taken a huge gamble on buying players that aren't ready for the first team. He's just about getting away with it by the skin of his teeth. Tonight was just another example.
I've been concerned about Lambert's tactics since the Rotherham game, so fashion wise, like under MON, I'm a trend setter, not like these winter chic wannabes. ;)
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As said. A carbon copy of last seasons game but this time the Baggies let the game slip. They should have been 4-0 up by the time KEA scored.
Fucking dire. I'm not gonna pretend Westwood and KEA are suddenly good enough. I don't think they are for this level. Sylla hasn't lived up to the promise of last season, and certainly his on the ball ability, which needed to improve, hasn't.
Benteke needs to hit form quick, because we're struggling all too often in front of goals. It fell nicely to us a couple of times and we got a result, but that might not always happen.
The difference for me today was taking off 3 players who at this current time are not premiership quality, and replacing them with 3 players who are. Simple as that really.
The starting 11 was bloody awful.
Baker is a nightmare waiting to happen. Bacuna was disappointing.
For me Vlaar and Clark did well today. Vlaar just about held it together single handed at times. Guzan was okay. Gabby and Weimann were lively when they came on. Delph was energetic. Everyone else was bobbins. Tonev started brightly, but he always fades. He's got one trick in his locker and a shoot on sight policy. Full have his number pretty early and he has no answer.
Agreed with the most of this. Thought we were in the main shocking today and some of the players we had playing were so poor it was untrue. The subs improved things but more so because we removed two players who were woeful beyond belief, Sylla and Tonev. I dont rate Kozak but didnt think he was as bad. Gabby gave the crowd a lift and forced West Brom to defend a bit deeper. Gave some badly needed mobility up front. Delph did ok at left back but I never want to see him playing there again, we need him in midfield as we were hammered in there without him. Vlaar and Clark were the only players who held their own so considering that we did well to dig out a result.
Long was outstanding for West Brom but you the defending for both goals was criminal. A 50 yard punt downfield caught Baker horribly square, thought Clark was trying to push him up to play offside but Baker got caught in two minds. The second was farcical, Bacuna obviously the main culprit but Guzan only encouraged the chip and Baker's last ditch efforts to clear were poor. Brunt and Mulumbu dominated midfield. Sessegnon should have put them 3-0 up but kind of went missing after as he tends to do. They were miles better than us in truth.
Guzan 5 - shit for second goal, didnt have many other saves to make.
Bacuna 4 - had a nightmare with second goal and never recovered. Been one of our better players this season but occasion may have got to him. Crossing was deplorable.
Vlaar 8 - held things together on his own at times, tried to play out with the ball too but wasnt helped by a non existent midfield.
Baker 4 - yikes, a defensive Andy Carroll. Thought he might struggle with Long before the game and so it turned out. A liability.
Clark 7 - thought Clark had a decent game and was one of our better players on the ball. Amalfitano is a good player but thought he was held well. Yellow card was harsh on him but he keeps picking them up.
Sylla 3 - gave ball away repeatedly, fouled regularly and lack of footballing ability makes him look like a poor man's Isiah Osbourne. Really struggling this term.
Westwood 5 - great goal saves a very disappointing performance where I felt he hid for large parts of the game from showing for the ball. Vlaar and Clark were forced to play the ball far too much with the net result of Guzan launching punts down to McAuley's head. I like Westwood but he needs better players around him in midfield. It was men against boys in there for most of the game.
KEA 5 - nice finish for goal so credit to him for that. Not sure what other credit could be given as he was another midfield passenger.
Tonev 4 - nothing just absolutely nothing. Like many of our players tonight, lightweight and completely ineffectual. Kid has ability but blew a decent chance to stake a claim tonight.
Kozak 5 - wasnt bad in the first half I felt. Held it up well on occasion and cracking shot tipped the top of the crossbar. About as mobile as a pissed Peter Crouch so formation didnt give him a hope.
Benteke 5 - Poor workrate, shocking touch, selfish and beaten up a stick. Touch of the Ashley Young's in his last season about him this term. Wouldnt be surprised if he has been tapped up. The speedy physical beast from last season is now comfortably getting beaten in 50/50s and pace has disappeared.
Gabby, Weimann, Delph - all did improve things but both Gabby's and Weimann's touch seems miles off. Without Delph in midfield we went too direct I felt at times towards the end. Gabby and Delph will start the next day but I think Lowton needs to come back in at right back and Bacuna ahead of him.
Lambert 6 - poor team selection, cant afford to select a midfield in a derby that isnt able to physically compete. The early triple change did give the Villa crowd a big life. Ive been critical of Lambert's substitutions but this was early and bold. Not sure at all about bringing Delph into left back as that wasnt necessary. Clark was doing fine there and we needed Delph in midfield.
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Some additional stats from Opta
Pass Completion
StripeyFilth 74% 319/432
Aston Villa 71% 303/426
Attacking third
StripeyFilth 81/144
Aston Villa 82/133
Defensive Third
StripeyFilth 70/74
Aston Villa 64/71
Pretty much a toss up in terms of passing. With Westbrom's passing it around at the back boosting their numbers a hair.
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Always different watching from a distance but the tone of this thread surprises me
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Always different watching from a distance but the tone of this thread surprises me
Depressingly, it doesn't surprise me at all.
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I know it's a game of opinions but there are as ever some ridiculous ones on here:
- Shane long did nothing but score two soft goals
- Westwood was poor all game
- lambert deserves no credit for the subs (formation change also important)
- Guzan at fault for the second
We were pretty shit for much of the game and woeful for some of it. The team selection and shape we're wrong. And there are signs that irritate me about lambert. Too much chopping and changing shapes isn't helping give us fluency for example
But we did have half a team out. West brom were pretty much at full strength.
But mulumbu and yacob must have cost less than half a million between them and would both be straight in our team. Sylla was absolutely hopeless wasn't he? Baker wasn't much better.
I thought Tonev was bright for twenty minutes and then disappeared. It's hard to see why we've relegated n'zogbia to the bomb squad for him (I know he's injured but his shirt number suggests as much)
Just hope Luna can resume left back duties and the three who came on last night are good enough to start on Saturday
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are any of our youth/reserve players ready to come in to the first team? gary gardner in a three man midfield perhaps?
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Gardner has been out for so long. I'd put him on loan.
I really think we could do with someone like nzonzi or ideally Leroy fer
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Well done lads, well done Lambert. Subs made the difference.
Happy with the draw, especially from 2 down.
Lots of negatives but can't be arsed with that for now, other than to say it proves our squad is not strong enough and you cannot play Benteke/Kodak without wingers.
Don't agree, good delivery is all it needs, we didn't play with wingers last season and Benteke did perfectly well, he just needs a goal, he's looked out of sorts since his injury
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If we were passed off the park and were so woeful how did we have 49% possession? And more shots and more shots on target than Brazil 1970?
Agree, I sat with the Albion fans who were getting increasingly irate through the second half at the number of times Albion gave the ball away. Both teams ball retention was poor in what was a scrappy typical derby but didn't think we were passed off the park, no way.
Team selection was disappointing but it sounds like it had to be done to avoid risk of further problems. Yes we defended poorly to say the least for both the goals but I didn't think Long had the ability to do what he did and I don't think Guzan was at fault as has been suggested.
I don't understand why the general consensus seems so negative. I think they showed great resolve to get back I to the game from a very difficult position.
I don't normally see villa away, I was surprised at the high line we were playing, is that our normal style?
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I really was gutted/furious at half time, if we'd have conceded a 3rd I think I'd have left. Glad we pulled it back felt really elated on way back even though spent over an hour locked outside the train station. The organization was a nightmare.
Came back switched on ssn and Lambert was saying something about being slagged off by some? Anyone know what that was all about?
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Well done villa for your part in an excellent game, longs first and westwoods goal were worth the entrance fee alone.
FYI, at 2-0 up, I hit the neat rum, convinced you'd still win 4-2.
Both teams will finish mid table.
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Albion really need to win games like that if they're going to avoid relegation. I'm concerned for you.
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Maybe he reads H&V.
I'm also really surprised by this thread.
Knowing those 3 players were coming back from injury, but were named on the bench, I fully expected them to come on with around half an hour to go. I expected this before a ball was even kicked, so I think Lambert probably knew that too, and it is quite likely that they, and even the players they replaced, knew it too
It wasn't a strop, or a panic, or because the fans were screaming for it. It was because there were 3 players on the bench who would have started if fit, and who could be used most effectively in the closing stages of the game. I cannot imagine how anyone could think that he ever intended anything else.
They wouldn't have been as effective at the start, because they were half fit, so if they could only play part of the game, it was better to bring them on as others were tiring.
Anyway, I'd have taken a point before the game, and by half time, I think I would have been relieved to only lose by 2. So for me, it's a result I'm happy with.
We are mid table (8th -12th is what many would have put as a realistic expectation pre-season & there we are), after a tough opening set of fixtures, and without even starting to play well yet.
Of course it would appear I have just found the new lucky gloves. They went on at half time against Cardiff, and again last night (despite me being in the house!). My last pair of lucky gloves were lost on the way out of a 2-2 draw with Arsenal one Christmas during MON days. They brought us back from 2-0 down to draw 2-2 that night. The last of many come backs they inspired. In that January transfer window we signed Emile Heskey - the rest is history. Our luck disappeared with the lucky gloves. I bought another pair but it was never the same. However, the pair I bought before the Cardiff game when it was unexpectedly nippy, might just have the magic. So PL doesn't have to worry about his tactics anymore anyway - I've got it covered!
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O'Neill would never have hauled 3 players off, especially one of his biggest signings, on 57 minutes.
As has been said a number of times, why on earth would he start with 5 players who have been injured, 3 of whom did not train until friday? It would have been a suicidal gamble.
IT is becoming more and more fashionable to bash Lambert at the moment, despite him having been here less than 18 months and had to completely build a squad on genuine peanuts, while losing an extraordinary amount of players to injury and being dealt to be fair, the fixture list from hell at the start of this season. To sit on 15 points tonight, is a damned good effort and about what most of us would have expected at this stage.
Just reading the comments, you would think we were given a full on twatting tonight, not got a 2-2 draw away at a side full of confidence, well established in their squad that have finished above us the last 2 seasons.
This. Some posters seen to think we should be Barcelona by now.
I'd settle for Barcelona B right now.
I'd settle for the Barcelona Ladies right now.
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They wouldn't have been as effective at the start, because they were half fit, so if they could only play part of the game, it was better to bring them on as others were tiring.
That is so glaringly obvious I am amazed it has to be explained. Play not fully fit players from the start, when the opposition are at their strongest, and they'll struggle. Bring them on for half an hour when the opposition are tiring then they are more likely to have an impact.
Lambert 'managed' last night, rather than just pick a team.
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Decent point after a dreadful first hour,just shows how much we need Delph gabby and weimann,looked a different team when they came on. Now for a big game Saturday
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Of course it would appear I have just found the new lucky gloves. They went on at half time against Cardiff, and again last night (despite me being in the house!).
Time to turn the heating on Amfy!
We kept warm bouncing round in delerium when Westwood scored....
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They wouldn't have been as effective at the start, because they were half fit, so if they could only play part of the game, it was better to bring them on as others were tiring.
That is so glaringly obvious I am amazed it has to be explained. Play not fully fit players from the start, when the opposition are at their strongest, and they'll struggle. Bring them on for half an hour when the opposition are tiring then they are more likely to have an impact.
Lambert 'managed' last night, rather than just pick a team.
this for me.
great fight back from the Villa after a very poor opening 45 mins, didn't see anything from Albion to suggest that they are "miles ahead" of the Villa.
UTV
The Doc
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Derby matches are harder to predict. They were right up for it, we looked a good yard off the pace. They should have been out of sight by half time. But they werent. Big balls to subsitute three players at the same time (Mourinhoesque?) with the risk attached (although three wasnt enough for me at the time!). Injected pace and desire and belief. Disappointed after the equaliser we didnt push a bit more. We have gone from the team most likley to lose points from winning positions (we may have held this for about four years) to the team most likely to gain points from losing positions. The net result is teams will be more wary of us, and as a fan, coming from 2 nil down to snatch a point feels a lot better than being 2 nil up and the drawing, despite the points gained exactly the same. And what a fucking goal Westwood. pick that out!
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There was plenty wrong last night. But two key points:
1. We can only assume that the subs just weren't fit to start, ditto luna. Thus lambert had little choice on who to play.
2. We need to reserve judgement on the team till we've got more players back and have played more of our seemingly winnable games. We've played one of the bottom half teams at home so far, and beat them. Although there's abide that we're much better away from home this is partly a result of the way the fixtures have fallen.
Results wise I've very little cause for complaint. We've had one genuinely disappointing result - Newcastle at home. The rest have generally gone to form or been pleasant surprises (arsenal citeh and even Norwich)
Form wise we could be doing a lot better in some of our performances. But then hopefully with players coming back from injury, and also hopefully improving form from some of our key players last year - Lowton, Westwood, benteke, gabby, Weimann - we can continue a decent run.
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(http://s3.amazonaws.com/br-cdn/temp_images/2013/11/25/ElAhmadi.gif)
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/br-cdn/temp_images/2013/11/25/Westwood.gif)
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On a "are we progressing" note which seems to pop up (usually when we are losing) now and then.
Think we had 9 points after 12 games last year, and have had a much tougher run of fixtures this season.
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Any news from Ads who I believe was in the Villa Rose Tavern before the game? It seems a couple of StripeyFilth went in there and started throwing bottles at the Villa fans before being nicked by two coppers who also happened to be in there.
Hope he's okay and just suffering a hangover.
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I must admit I was surprised with the starting line up - I thought Lowton would have started at right back as we looked better with him there against Cardiff and bacuna more advanced - i didnt expect him to go with 3 players all returning from injury but I did expect him to perhaps start one of them and see how things went from there -
Regarding the game as I said last night - tale of 2 halves , we were poor 1st half and much better once the changes had been made - I felt lambert got this team selection wrong last night personally and we showed great character to fight back and get a draw, which on balance of play was probably a fair result.
So many times his team has on poor half and one good half - if we could get consistency over 90 minutes things would be so much better .
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Great comeback. We are a hard to team to support! At one one point yesterday I said to the guy next to me that this is the worst Villa side since '86, then ten minutes later it was 2-2. What is for sure for whatever they lack in ability this team does not give up. They have demonstrated on many occasions since Bradford that we can come back from being a goal or two down and however badly we are playing we still keep going. This is very much to Lamberts credit, a team with Ireland,N'Zogbia and Bent in it for example, clearly good players, wouldn't have shown the application of the guys last night. In that sense Westwood,Baker, Clarke etc while not the greatest players we've ever had, are clearly 'fit to wear the shirt' and we should be pleased with their commitment to our cause really.
At some point, if we believe that we have the right manager, on financial muscle alone we will go past West Brom (and their likes) and sit nicely up in that top 8 again. Thats just the way it is when your ARE a big club, yes we would like for example a player like Olsen in our defence now, but he isn't the player we need to get back up the league long term. That player is Okore who will be part of our next step up.
The really sad thing is that our end goal is to compete with Everton and Spurs for the pleasure of finishing 5th !
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Well done villa for your part in an excellent game, longs first and westwoods goal were worth the entrance fee alone.
FYI, at 2-0 up, I hit the neat rum, convinced you'd still win 4-2.
Both teams will finish mid table.
Well said mate - a fair result and decent game !
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I thought at times last night we were as poor as I've seen us. Sloppy passing, constantly giving the ball away and a non exsistent midfield three so i'm happy we came back from two down. That said, i don't think they were worthy of the two goal lead, they were just two really well taken goals. I kept saying to the lads, we just needed to a goal back and anything could happen.
As for the players he left out, i'll be honest I expected Delph to start and I had a feeling Gabby would play some sort of part.
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I'm in a good mood today which I am putting down to the fightback last night. Yes the first ten minutes, well more like the first 65, were chronic but we bounced back and got something from it. I certainly feel far better than I did following the identical result last season. It's a funny old game as I think someone once said.
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Lambert got out of jail tonight though, I mean I've always supported him and backed him even through the shitness of last season
but when you pick a line up that from the off is bloody rubbish, then at half time think the best thing you can do is send the same lot out again, its pretty piss poor in my view
we could have easily been out of the game by half time had WBA took there chances that sausage bloke missed the sitter of the season, so why wait when its obvious something has to change
lost a bit of faith in the manager tonight if i'm honest,
he wasn't pro active enough earlier on, the fact his subs are being lauded as inspired is just nonsense, at least one or two should have been on a lot earlier, and the likes of Sylla and Tonev should never have made the half time whistle
While I know exactly where you're coming from, I think you still have to appreciate the balancing act of management means you can't always be as mercenary as you'd like when it comes to making certain decisions.
He put three subs on together to make it look like the performance was completely the fault of the team. Lambert is too much like O'Neill. He should have changed it much earlier. He is also no better than Alex McLeish, who suffered dogs abuse.
I thought Neville made a good point after the match, based on being a player. He said in his experience, managers (SAF?) don't make changes at half time if they can avoid it, because it can shatter confidence and be seen as a blame culture, so they give them some minutes in the second half and if no improvement, then make the change.
Interesting point of view for the keyboard managers to consider. ;)
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I would certainly bring back Lowton at the weekend and move bacuna forward into midfield in place of sylla who seems to be some way short of the player he was last season.
I hope either Bennett or luna are fit soon as I think baker needs taking out of the team at the moment.
Seems a lot of criticism for Kozak and tonev but it's too early to write either off yet.
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While people are slagging off the starting line up, which I wasn't a fan of myself, we should remember it was an unchanged side from the last game, which we won. The team that finished the game was a much better side and much closer to our best 11, but the three that came on were coming back from injury, so who knows if they had 90 minutes of football in them.
So I suppose he got the team wrong and the subs right. And when there's a mixture of good and bad you get what we got last night - a draw!
One thing I did note is that Benteke seemed livelier when Gabby and Weimann came on. If he had the choice, I think he'd like to play in a front three with them either side of him every week.
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is the DVD of the first half in the Stripey's club shack yet ?
""45 mins of the impossible dream......made possible..""
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I would certainly bring back Lowton at the weekend and move bacuna forward into midfield in place of sylla who seems to be some way short of the player he was last season.
I hope either Bennett or luna are fit soon as I think baker needs taking out of the team at the moment.
Seems a lot of criticism for Kozak and tonev but it's too early to write either off yet.
I'd agree, if Tonev's first effort had gone in instead of Myhill's save, would he have had the same level of criticism for the rest of the game. Similarly with Kozak's shot on to the bar. The margins are so small between adulation and criticism.
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Seems normal to me that he waited until around the hour mark to bring on the subs. Don't have an issue with that at all, there's no point starting them if they're just coming back from injury.
The problem was more the totally disjointed set-up that Lambert played from the kick-off. Fair enough, I get that his hand was forced by injuries, but it really showed how bare the squad is in certain areas. He was reduced to playing Kozak and Benteke together again, but they are ineffectual as a partnership. Benteke usually looks good when he's got Weimann and Gabby doing a lot of intelligent off the ball running and pressing for him to create a bit of space, but Kozak isn't going to do that in a million years, and Tonev has a lot of improving to do before he can be called Premier League class. Albrighton looks a better player to me.
The consensus seems to be that Kozak has been brought in as a long term replacement for Benteke, but I think it's equally important for Lambert to draft in like-for-like backup for Gabby, because if he isn't on the pitch, we look toothless.
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I would certainly bring back Lowton at the weekend and move bacuna forward into midfield in place of sylla who seems to be some way short of the player he was last season.
I hope either Bennett or luna are fit soon as I think baker needs taking out of the team at the moment.
Seems a lot of criticism for Kozak and tonev but it's too early to write either off yet.
I'd agree, if Tonev's first effort had gone in instead of Myhill's save, would he have had the same level of criticism for the rest of the game. Similarly with Kozak's shot on to the bar. The margins are so small between adulation and criticism.
Those were OK individual moments, but as a whole the attach looked unbalanced with them playing alongside Benteke. It did against Cardiff as well, until Bacuna stuck that free kick in.
For me, they're both decent players who we need to find a way of fitting in, which Lambert hasn't done yet.
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Any news from Ads who I believe was in the Villa Rose Tavern before the game? It seems a couple of StripeyFilth went in there and started throwing bottles at the Villa fans before being nicked by two coppers who also happened to be in there.
Hope he's okay and just suffering a hangover.
Was there also trouble down my the Metro pre-game ?
Quite a few police cars and riot vans went tearing down in that direction about an hour before the game
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Shocking team selection. Saved it with a good choice of subs.
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Until the changes vs Cardiff we were pretty poor, so it wasn't really the same team. I'd have played Lowton and pushed Bacuna up and dropped Al Hamedi... which throws up even more questions.
Saying that, he couldn't have gambled on putting three players in who were coming back from injuries, right from the start either.
Lambert appears to be a very lucky manager, by the time he made the changes last night we could have been dead and buried... but we weren't and in the end could have won.
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Lambert got out of jail tonight though, I mean I've always supported him and backed him even through the shitness of last season
but when you pick a line up that from the off is bloody rubbish, then at half time think the best thing you can do is send the same lot out again, its pretty piss poor in my view
we could have easily been out of the game by half time had WBA took there chances that sausage bloke missed the sitter of the season, so why wait when its obvious something has to change
lost a bit of faith in the manager tonight if i'm honest,
he wasn't pro active enough earlier on, the fact his subs are being lauded as inspired is just nonsense, at least one or two should have been on a lot earlier, and the likes of Sylla and Tonev should never have made the half time whistle
Spot on.
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Those of you watching on TV may have got a much better view than those of us in the ground but I find a lot of criticism on here a bit unfair. We got caught out by a long punt and a silly mistake and 2-0 at 10 mins or so. A lot of teams would have sunk without trace after that but we didn't. I still thought we were the better team in the FIRST half. Had more chances and more shots on and off target. We started the second very well without getting close to scoring and Lambert did exactly what was required with 3 subs. Once those 3 were on we had more precision and better drive. The goals were well deserved and yes well done to our midfielders for scoring when the forwards failed to do so. Lot of positives tonight.
Negatives were form of Benteke and Baker. Benteke appears clumsy and slow at the moment and Baker got caught out for both goals by not being close to long.
As someone said I was surprised that he stayed on and Kozak went off. Need to sort out Tonev. Whilst his shooting was not wild tonight it was weak and wasteful. I think he will be more useful next season.
Well I was there. The three subs were obviously not fit for a full 90mins thats why they didnt start. Gabby did raise our game on his arrival, considerably.Weimann showed enthusiasm. In the last two games we have picked up four points out of six which on paper looks very good.In reality we have been awful for about 133mins out of 180mins
I realise we all see our performances in different ways.All I want is for our players to pass the ball accurately to each other and keep possession, and then hopefully score. Last night, as is usual,we kept giving it away in midfield Sylla was spectacular at this aspect of his game. Nobody around us could see why Benteke had been instructed to play in a position he is not used to.
Paul Lambert is our manager and we have to stick with him. No we are not getting a tactically astute manager as most of us had been led to believe but look around there is no alternative at all.
Considering our best player and goalscorer is in dreadful form for club and country we are doing OK....but no more than that!
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The consensus seems to be that Kozak has been brought in as a long term replacement for Benteke, but I think it's equally important for Lambert to draft in like-for-like backup for Gabby, because if he isn't on the pitch, we look toothless.
If we brought in a "life-for-like" for Gabby, he'd be playing alongside Gabby in the first choice starting lineup.
I wonder what kind of contact Lallana's on ?
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I would certainly bring back Lowton at the weekend and move bacuna forward into midfield in place of sylla who seems to be some way short of the player he was last season.
I hope either Bennett or luna are fit soon as I think baker needs taking out of the team at the moment.
Seems a lot of criticism for Kozak and tonev but it's too early to write either off yet.
On last nights performance Bacuna could be left out, he seemed to really struggle both defensively and when going forward. That said, it would be harsh as he's been good recently but if you're going to make changes that's one position that is vulnerable. I also thought Sylla looked a little out of his depth, looked to constantly be in the wrong place and getting in the way of others and presumably it will be he who makes way for Delph.
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The composure for Westwoods goal is superb. He had three plays closing in very quickly, but nailed it.
That said, Longs goal was excellent too. He always seems lively against us. Very good player.
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What a great game overall and unlike last year I think we are delighted to get a point this time.
Observations
1. The Diamond doesnt work. Why play two big lads up front and not get any crosses in. First half we were hammered down both flanks as Tonev and Sylla could not protect the fullbacks. This was poor from Lambert and I thought it was far too long before the subs came on.
2. Im not sure Benteke and Kozak works particulalry away from home. Kozak looked ok yesterday he was getting involved but I think Benteke wants to lead the line and not be in the hole.
3. Tonev should be an impact sub at the moment not a starter he is not up to speed with the premier league.
4. El Ahmadi looked better going forward and getting into spaces than just sitting - We already have Westwood for that job.
5. The subs changed the games -they couldnt cope with three of the players playing further forward.
6. This time last year we would of lost that 3 or 4 nil which shows the strength of character.
7. With the players we can buy currently we cannot go for 16th to 6th. This will take time maybe 3-4 seasons but I can see some character and when they play with some composure we are getting there.
8. After first 20-30 mins they rarely troubled us I can only recall one chance they had second half.
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I actually thought Kozak did okay yesterday. He played better than Benteke. My problem with him mostly, is the way the team plays when he's on the pitch and what he can offer. His lack of mobility doesn't suit how we want to play, and how we generally play at our best.
I like him. He works hard, I'm just not sure he's Premiership standard. At least, he might have the potential at a club who can pass the ball and play it up to his feet, and offer the movement to be in and around him. Ever since Kozak has come in we've basically isolated the poor side and bombarded him with hopefully punts, or his team mates have tried to engage him in a game of head tennis. As already seen too, put him up against a half decent center half and he'll lose most aerial duels. Keep it to his feet.
Tonev is full of running, but has little variety. It takes the opposition 20 minutes to work out how he's going to play and from then on he's increasingly kept out the game. He's quick, he's direct, he will run at players but his touch isn't great so he's more of a player who'll knock and run as opposed to dribble at speed with the ball at his feet. Plus you know with Tonev that for better or worse, he's going to shoot every time he gets a yard of space. He's trying too hard at the moment. A bit of composure and a word in his ear from Lambert about when to shoot and when to pass and he'll be better.
For me, squaddie. A useful option on the bench.
The sooner we can revert back to the three up top of Weimann, Gabby and Benteke, the better. I'd also be tempted to bring Herd back into midfield and play Delph and Westwood/KEA with him. Westy and KEA together in the same mid does not work. They did save us the game but it doesn't hide the fact that both are incredibly limited.
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While people are slagging off the starting line up, which I wasn't a fan of myself, we should remember it was an unchanged side from the last game, which we won. The team that finished the game was a much better side and much closer to our best 11, but the three that came on were coming back from injury, so who knows if they had 90 minutes of football in them.
So I suppose he got the team wrong and the subs right. And when there's a mixture of good and bad you get what we got last night - a draw!
One thing I did note is that Benteke seemed livelier when Gabby and Weimann came on. If he had the choice, I think he'd like to play in a front three with them either side of him every week.
It was an unchanged starting line up to the Cardiff game yes, but the Cardiff game only really went our way after he changed things with Lowton at right back and bacuna more advanced.
Regarding benteke - I felt last night he looked well below his best and needs to score soon to get a bit of confidence .
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I've have berated Westwood and others all season, and I'm not ashamed to say it. But if, and it's a big IF, why doesn't Westwood push forward more often, in that "Scholes" like position!? Personally he offers zero protection at the back and if he has that composure and technical ability to hot shots like that then I fail to see what harm it can do, seeing we have Sunderland at home and it doesn't look like anyone from midfield has 5 plus goals in them this season.
I would go for ....
Guzan
Lowton Vlaar Clark Bacuna (Luna)
El Ahmadi
Westwood Delph
Weimann Agbonlahor
Benteke
...vs Sunderland.
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Is Lambert an idiot or a genius? Answers on an Irn Bru beer mat
Why does he have to be either?
What ? Did you watch the game ? The guy is clueless
That opening line up and tactics were a disgrace. We were very lucky not to be 5 down by HT.
Difficult to be 5 down at ht when they only had 4 shots on target the whole game. As bee said in earlier posts although we looked abject we forced more saves from Myhill than they did from Guzan.
Just read more posts and pws made same point earlier
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Player ratings.
Guzan- 6
Nigel Reo Bacuna- 4
Concrete Ron- 7
Titus Baker- 5
Paolo Clarkdini- 7
Matthieu Westwood- 5
Didier Sylla- 5
Eric Djemba Ahmedi- 5
Franz Tonev- 5.5
Libor Ormondroyd- 5
Emile Benteke- 5
Gabby, Weimann and Delph- 6.
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Guzan
Lowton Vlaar. Clark. Baker(luna)
Westwood. Delph. Kea
Bacuna. Benteke. Agbonlahor
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Is Lambert an idiot or a genius? Answers on an Irn Bru beer mat
Why does he have to be either?
What ? Did you watch the game ? The guy is clueless
That opening line up and tactics were a disgrace. We were very lucky not to be 5 down by HT.
Difficult to be 5 down at ht when they only had 4 shots on target the whole game. As bee said in earlier posts although we looked abject we forced more saves from Myhill than they did from Guzan.
Just read more posts and pws made same point earlier
We should have been 4 down before we scored. Sessegnon missed two sitters. One was particularly bad. Almost Jason Lee-esque. Thankfully he wasn't having one of his good games in every five matches.
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Guzan
Lowton Vlaar. Clark. Baker(luna)
Westwood. Delph. Kea
Bacuna. Benteke. Agbonlahor
Hmmmmm...I get that.
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Beat me to it Supertom. I was just looking back at the match thread and Sessegnon missed 2 sitters (so not included in the shots on target stat) on around 20 & 30 minutes and I was relieved to get to half time just 2 down. Everything that can be said about individual players has been said, and I for one woke up this morning still feeling glad to get a point when we could easily have been watching their open top bus parade today. Also - as someone mentioned last night - a mention for Michael Oliver who reffed the game calmly and fairly at a time when most refs are getting pelters from all and sundry
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Beat me to it Supertom. I was just looking back at the match thread and Sessegnon missed 2 sitters (so not included in the shots on target stat) on around 20 & 30 minutes and I was relieved to get to half time just 2 down. Everything that can be said about individual players has been said, and I for one woke up this morning still feeling glad to get a point when we could easily have been watching their open top bus parade today. Also - as someone mentioned last night - a mention for Michael Oliver who reffed the game calmly and fairly at a time when most refs are getting pelters from all and sundry
Baker frightened the bloody life out of me the whole first half. He seemed more assured second half, so whether a rollicking had anything to do with that, I don't know.
In truth though I'm delighted to mug them in the way we did. It's the exact opposite of the fixture last season when they mugged us. We should have been away and clear but we let them back into it with naive defending. They did the same. From their point of view, you shouldn't be conceding two goals like that. KEA had time in the box to put his finish away and Westy had time to take a touch and get his shot off.
Must say, 4 cracking finishes with all the goals. In that regard, going back to the boring discussion, it certainly wasn't a boring game. Painful at times, but not boring.
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Next up I'd go:
Guzan.
Lowton Vlaar Clark Luna (please)
. Herd
Westwood Delph
Weimann Agbonlahor
. Benteke
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I actually thought Kozak did okay yesterday. He played better than Benteke. My problem with him mostly, is the way the team plays when he's on the pitch and what he can offer. His lack of mobility doesn't suit how we want to play, and how we generally play at our best.
I like him. He works hard, I'm just not sure he's Premiership standard. At least, he might have the potential at a club who can pass the ball and play it up to his feet, and offer the movement to be in and around him. Ever since Kozak has come in we've basically isolated the poor side and bombarded him with hopefully punts, or his team mates have tried to engage him in a game of head tennis. As already seen too, put him up against a half decent center half and he'll lose most aerial duels. Keep it to his feet.
Tonev is full of running, but has little variety. It takes the opposition 20 minutes to work out how he's going to play and from then on he's increasingly kept out the game. He's quick, he's direct, he will run at players but his touch isn't great so he's more of a player who'll knock and run as opposed to dribble at speed with the ball at his feet. Plus you know with Tonev that for better or worse, he's going to shoot every time he gets a yard of space. He's trying too hard at the moment. A bit of composure and a word in his ear from Lambert about when to shoot and when to pass and he'll be better.
For me, squaddie. A useful option on the bench.
The sooner we can revert back to the three up top of Weimann, Gabby and Benteke, the better. I'd also be tempted to bring Herd back into midfield and play Delph and Westwood/KEA with him. Westy and KEA together in the same mid does not work. They did save us the game but it doesn't hide the fact that both are incredibly limited.
Very good post. Until you undid it all by suggesting we bring herd into midfield.
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I really don't get this desire to see Herd back in the side?
I'd bring back Lowton and play Bacuna in midfield.
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Weimann , benteke and gabby is a potent strikeforce away from home to hit teams with, at home I'm not convinced - I would use bacuna wide right rather than Weimann , bit more creativity about him.
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It's not possible to know who's really fit. Luna wasn't good enough for the bench so will he be for Saturday?
If they're all genuinely available I think I'd go:
Guzan - Lowton vlaar Clark Luna - Westwood Delph - bacuna Weimann gabby - benteke
That can switch pretty easily to a 433
But I'm not sure Delph is ready for example. His fitness is a massive part of his game. And if he can play, I wonder whether he'd be ready to play in a two.
Lambert also might go with the 3412 we ended with yday I reckon.
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I really don;'t get this desire to see Herd back in the side?
I'd bring back Lowton and play bacuna in midfield.
The only reason I want Herdy back is to offer some mobility in midfield and someone who can get stuck in. I'd sit him in front of the back four to mop up and allow Westwood and Delph further forward. Sylla is struggling and honestly, when Herd broke in under Houllier, and for a spell under McLeish he played well. In fact he's had better runs of form than KEA ever has to be fair to him.
It's either that or I'd play Bacuna in Sylla's position. Whatever we do, we've got to get KEA and Westwood separated. They can't play together.
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Weimann , benteke and gabby is a potent strikeforce away from home to hit teams with, at home I'm not convinced - I would use bacuna wide right rather than Weimann , bit more creativity about him.
I think the key to fixing that is re-shaping the midfield slightly so we go with more of a 4-2-3-1. Problem we have is number 10 style player to fit into the middle of the 3.
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Our best 11 is just about OK, shows the signings of Kozak and Tonev were poor decisions.
And if Kozak had scored instead of hitting the bar what would you have said then ? Just a question .
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In defence of our supposedly clueless manager, he has managed to turn a team who looked a shambles last Christmas (worst Villa team ever was mentioned a few times) into one of the form teams of 2013. We have improved massively defensively, as the stats prove and will be fine up front when Benteke and Weimann get their mojos back. As for last night, the two players who are a waste of space, Tonev and Kozak, both nearly scored. The tactical genius' on here clearly think the way to handle three players who appear to only be fit to play for around half an hour is to start with them all and sub them before half time. Then when he brings them on as impact subs to turn a 2-0 into a 2-2 he is given no credit because it was the obvious thing to do. I also don't think our difficult fixture list so far, our injuries and Long's finishing and Bacuna's mistake are all his fault.
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I really don;'t get this desire to see Herd back in the side?
I'd bring back Lowton and play bacuna in midfield.
The only reason I want Herdy back is to offer some mobility in midfield and someone who can get stuck in. I'd sit him in front of the back four to mop up and allow Westwood and Delph further forward. Sylla is struggling and honestly, when Herd broke in under Houllier, and for a spell under McLeish he played well. In fact he's had better runs of form than KEA ever has to be fair to him.
It's either that or I'd play Bacuna in Sylla's position. Whatever we do, we've got to get KEA and Westwood separated. They can't play together.
I agree that Herd has played pretty well for us in midfield in the past, but I just see better players in there right now than him. KEA gets most of the stick, but for me he's better than he was last year and on balance a better player than Herd. It's also notable that he's one of the few midfielders we have that carries a reasonable goal threat, so I think that gets him a spot where his all round play may not.
The team I want us to get to would be:-
Guzan
Lowton
Vlaar
Clark
Luna
Bacuna
Westwood
Delph
Weimann
Benteke
Gabby
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I really don;'t get this desire to see Herd back in the side?
I'd bring back Lowton and play bacuna in midfield.
The only reason I want Herdy back is to offer some mobility in midfield and someone who can get stuck in. I'd sit him in front of the back four to mop up and allow Westwood and Delph further forward. Sylla is struggling and honestly, when Herd broke in under Houllier, and for a spell under McLeish he played well. In fact he's had better runs of form than KEA ever has to be fair to him.
It's either that or I'd play Bacuna in Sylla's position. Whatever we do, we've got to get KEA and Westwood separated. They can't play together.
It would have been totally disrespectful to Albion to play Herd last night. Didn't one of their players nearly die from a life threatening injury after he assaulted them a couple of years ago?
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Guzan
Lowton Vlaar. Clark. Baker(luna)
Westwood. Delph. Kea
Bacuna. Benteke. Agbonlahor
Yeah I'd probably go with that as well, though I'd have Westwood in a holding role and give KEA (probably deserves to be in ahead of Sylla) and Delph a chance to go forward a little more. Losing Okore for such a long period is a blow, as that back four doesn't look the most solid.
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Weimann , benteke and gabby is a potent strikeforce away from home to hit teams with, at home I'm not convinced - I would use bacuna wide right rather than Weimann , bit more creativity about him.
I think the key to fixing that is re-shaping the midfield slightly so we go with more of a 4-2-3-1. Problem we have is number 10 style player to fit into the middle of the 3.
Yes , it's a position we really need to address to get the best out of this group of players - if we can get that number 10 type of player it could make a huge difference.
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I think Tonevs problem is a lack of concentration, the difficult things he looks quite promising at but he is giving the ball away too many times when he shouldn't.
A few players didnt quite step up to the plate last night, Sylla especially had a chance to cement a place in the side but did himself no favours.
Very glad to get a point all things said.
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Guzan
Lowton Vlaar. Clark. Baker(luna)
Westwood. Delph. Kea
Bacuna. Benteke. Agbonlahor
I like this.
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I thought Kozak was better last night.
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Guzan
Lowton Vlaar. Clark. Baker(luna)
Westwood. Delph. Kea
Bacuna. Benteke. Agbonlahor
I like this.
This, but without Baker. The guy is a big liability and we look much more prone to letting in goals with him in the team.
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I would flip it. How many of the west brom team would get into our side?
Olsson? Maybe. None of their attackers are as good as ours (including shane long). Their midfielders are solid but nothing beyond KEA level players imho.
Mulumbu, Morrisson, Long, Brunt. All would walk into our team.
Brunt wouldn't. I like Morrison but he hasn't actually been a regular for them. Long and particularly Mulumbu are excellent players for a mid table team.
Our bench was slightly skewed by the injuries as the three that came on would normally be starting so it was stronger than usual. WBA had plenty of options on there bench so yes their squad is probably a year more advance than ours.
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Our best 11 is just about OK, shows the signings of Kozak and Tonev were poor decisions.
And if Kozak had scored instead of hitting the bar what would you have said then ? Just a question .
That was great technique and he was unlucky
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Any news from Ads who I believe was in the Villa Rose Tavern before the game? It seems a couple of StripeyFilth went in there and started throwing bottles at the Villa fans before being nicked by two coppers who also happened to be in there.
Hope he's okay and just suffering a hangover.
Was there also trouble down my the Metro pre-game ?
Quite a few police cars and riot vans went tearing down in that direction about an hour before the game
Even though this game is generally a lot calmer than SHA, it's just asking for trouble to put it on a monday night.
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I would flip it. How many of the west brom team would get into our side?
Olsson? Maybe. None of their attackers are as good as ours (including shane long). Their midfielders are solid but nothing beyond KEA level players imho.
Mulumbu, Morrisson, Long, Brunt. All would walk into our team.
Brunt wouldn't. I like Morrison but he hasn't actually been a regular for them. Long and particularly Mulumbu are excellent players for a mid table team.Our bench was slightly skewed by the injuries as the three that came on would normally be starting so it was stronger than usual. WBA had plenty of options on there bench so yes their squad is probably a year more advance than ours.
Two players I've always liked, epsecially Shane Long. Where he'd fit in our team though is a different matter. Certainly not ahead of Benteke in the centre, so I'd guess he'd take Andi's place on the right.
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Well I am happy at the comeback and understand why the game changing subs didnt start the match. Need to follow it up with a win on Saturday.
As an aside, I was talking to a regular Stripey goer from work yesterday. I predicted a draw. He predicted a comfortable win for them.
He reasoned that they have to look to beat teams like us at home if they are to progress.
More tellingly, he commented that for all they had a good season in finishing eighth last year, he was still disappointed with it.
This was on the basis that it is rare they will go into two games with us when they are favourites and they needed to take advantage of that. Not beating us took the gloss off the season for him.
I havent bothered to seek him out for his views on last as he will be suicidal this morning.
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I really don;'t get this desire to see Herd back in the side?
I'd bring back Lowton and play bacuna in midfield.
The only reason I want Herdy back is to offer some mobility in midfield and someone who can get stuck in. I'd sit him in front of the back four to mop up and allow Westwood and Delph further forward. Sylla is struggling and honestly, when Herd broke in under Houllier, and for a spell under McLeish he played well. In fact he's had better runs of form than KEA ever has to be fair to him.
It's either that or I'd play Bacuna in Sylla's position. Whatever we do, we've got to get KEA and Westwood separated. They can't play together.
It would have been totally disrespectful to Albion to play Herd last night. Didn't one of their players nearly die from a life threatening injury after he assaulted them a couple of years ago?
Yes he did, it was touch and go for about 2 seconds whether he would pull through.
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Long is out of contract at the end of season - on his display last night he has done himself a favour .
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Herd is still this season's Lichaj. Someone who'll pop up on the bench when we have some injuries as he can cover centre half, RB and DM. He won't be here much longer, technically not good enough for what Lambert wants from us now.
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I thought Kozak was better last night.
Me to.Getting a bit tired of him being slated when he has only just started playing for us. Oh, Benteke needs to liven up, a shadow of last seasons player at the moment.
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Someone said we should have been five goals down at half time. They had one shot on target in the second half so from that I'm guessing some people would say 6-0 would have been the fair result.
And still we didn't manage to achieve the impossible and make Steve Clarke look even more miserable than usual.
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No Albion fans on here this morning?
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I really don;'t get this desire to see Herd back in the side?
I'd bring back Lowton and play bacuna in midfield.
The only reason I want Herdy back is to offer some mobility in midfield and someone who can get stuck in. I'd sit him in front of the back four to mop up and allow Westwood and Delph further forward. Sylla is struggling and honestly, when Herd broke in under Houllier, and for a spell under McLeish he played well. In fact he's had better runs of form than KEA ever has to be fair to him.
It's either that or I'd play Bacuna in Sylla's position. Whatever we do, we've got to get KEA and Westwood separated. They can't play together.
It would have been totally disrespectful to Albion to play Herd last night. Didn't one of their players nearly die from a life threatening injury after he assaulted them a couple of years ago?
Yes he did, it was touch and go for about 2 seconds whether he would pull through.
I believe at one point Roy Hodgson had written the eulogy for the next home game's programme.
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Wasn't it Herd who got sent off and Hutton who ended Shane Long's career until their next match?
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It was hard to tell with all the violence, blood and guts going on.
Whatever the result last night, Albion are still the model example of how to run a football club. You would never find them letting their top striker and best manager for thirty years go into the final season of their contract.
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Any news from Ads who I believe was in the Villa Rose Tavern before the game? It seems a couple of StripeyFilth went in there and started throwing bottles at the Villa fans before being nicked by two coppers who also happened to be in there.
Hope he's okay and just suffering a hangover.
I was in there at the time, and heard it more than saw it, due to being sat around the corner and there being so many people in the way. From what I can tell the Albion fans had a go at smashing the window (bright sparks eh?) and were unsuccessful so a couple came in the door and exchanged bottles and glasses with the Villa fans inside. There just happened to be 2 coppers in the pub at the time so within seconds the bar was shut (just as my mate was getting served!) and the riot wagons were outside surrounding the Villa fans who were by then outside. We didn't fancied being held up by the police so slipped out the side and moved onto the Church Inn which was very quiet. We passed a group of lads on the way who may well have been the Albion lot.
There was also punches thrown at the station after. We were on one platform waiting for the train to Snow Hill and the platform opposite had Villa fans waiting for the train to Stourbridge. The police then let the Albion fans onto that platform (having previously held them back) and some scuffles broke out. One bloke who I think was a Villa fan, was on the floor for some time being assisted by police but seemed ok eventually.
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I mean I'd have started 2 out of 3 of the subs who came on. I'd rather see them start and play 60-70 minutes, rather than coming on at 55 (when the game looked gone, but thankfully wasn't).
Starting those three would (in my opinion) have been a mistake, it was obvious, in a local derby and WBA's Cup Final, that they were going to come at us hard from the start. I reckon we would have ended up with one or two of them crocked and certainly all three of them having to come off at some point leaving us to play out the game with the XI we actually started with. And there was no guarantee that we wouldn't have gone a goal or two down anyway, Baker is a goal against waiting to happen so far this season, and you can't legislate for an average striker suddenly becoming van Basten for ten minutes.
We need more strength in depth, we need more experience, those are things you can throw at Lambert and Lerner's transfer policies, but as a one-off game, given the injuries we had, I think Plumbutt got it right.
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Wasn't it Herd who got sent off and Hutton who ended Shane Long's career until their next match?
Should have played Hutton last night - marking Long - we might have won!
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In fairness to Lambert, Gabby and Weimann have been crap recently when they did play. This is generally accepted by the vast majority of fans on here. Restoring the glorious front three from the end of last season hasn't worked at all recently.
But if the likes of Sylla, Tonev, Kozak, Helenius and KEA are the answer then the question obviously needs to be looked at again. Luna too has been poor when fit recently. Two players who haven't got any kind of look in are Herd and Bennett who deserve a go imo.
Delph comes back into the team no question. Bacuna has been one of our better players but chancing Lowton at right back and pushing Bacuna into midfield should certainly be considered for Sunderland. After that it's places up for grabs as far as I'm concerned. Maybe dropping Benteke to give him a much needed kick up the arse should be considered. The alternatives, Gabby and Weimann have only one league goal each thus far.
Problem that I see is that there is a lack of quality throughout our squad.
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It is strange that a few weeks ago people were wondering what Sylla had done not get a place in the side. He has one bad game (as did KEA and Westwood in the first half) and now people want him dropped.
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In fairness to Lambert, Gabby and Weimann have been crap recently when they did play. This is generally accepted by the vast majority of fans on here. Restoring the glorious front three from the end of last season hasn't worked at all recently.
But if the likes of Sylla, Tonev, Kozak, Helenius and KEA are the answer then the question obviously needs to be looked at again. Luna too has been poor when fit recently. Two players who haven't got any kind of look in are Herd and Bennett who deserve a go imo.
Bennett's out injured and has been for a while.
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It is strange that a few weeks ago people were wondering what Sylla had done not get a place in the side. He has one bad game (as did KEA and Westwood in the first half) and now people want him dropped.
Maybe we should move this thread to the "Are we fickle" thread.
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It is strange that a few weeks ago people were wondering what Sylla had done not get a place in the side. He has one bad game (as did KEA and Westwood in the first half) and now people want him dropped.
In truth neither sylla, or Westwood have looked like the players of last season - kea was hit and miss last season and this - Westwood is showing signs of regaining his form , sylla looks somewhat off the pace right now - teams should be picked on current form and I can see why sylla would find his place at risk .
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It is strange that a few weeks ago people were wondering what Sylla had done not get a place in the side. He has one bad game (as did KEA and Westwood in the first half) and now people want him dropped.
Maybe we should move this thread to the "Are we fickle" thread.
Is there a 'rose tinted spectacles' thread as well?
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It is strange that a few weeks ago people were wondering what Sylla had done not get a place in the side. He has one bad game (as did KEA and Westwood in the first half) and now people want him dropped.
Sylla has been shite all season. KEA is bang average and Westwood has been way off last season's form. Westwood I have good time for and I'm sure his form will come good again. I don't see anything at all in the other two.
Think Lambert made a big mistake spending decent money on the likes of Kozak when we could have brought in the likes of Gareth Barry (dominated Gerrard at weekend) into midfield and looked to bring in a quality attacking midfielder.
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Another thing before I forget, well done to all of us in the away end for the minutes applause for a player of theirs who most of us had never heard of. We showed them how it's done.
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Any news from Ads who I believe was in the Villa Rose Tavern before the game? It seems a couple of StripeyFilth went in there and started throwing bottles at the Villa fans before being nicked by two coppers who also happened to be in there.
Hope he's okay and just suffering a hangover.
I saw an ambulance heading that way about 1750.
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Any news from Ads who I believe was in the Villa Rose Tavern before the game? It seems a couple of StripeyFilth went in there and started throwing bottles at the Villa fans before being nicked by two coppers who also happened to be in there.
Hope he's okay and just suffering a hangover.
I forgot about this, PC Bladen mentioned it to us before the game that there'd been some trouble in there. Hope no-one was seriously hurt.
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It is strange that a few weeks ago people were wondering what Sylla had done not get a place in the side. He has one bad game (as did KEA and Westwood in the first half) and now people want him dropped.
Maybe we should move this thread to the "Are we fickle" thread.
Is there a 'rose tinted spectacles' thread as well?
Somewhere, there must be.
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Dreadful first half performance but no big surprises there. It's been said before but the most disturbing thing was Bentekes form. He hardly won a header all night and considering our hoof strategy (why not if you've got no credible midfield?) it's no wonder we looked so impotent for most of the game.
On the plus side, if only our defence could have kept its composure in the first 10 minutes, we could have ended up winning that match with the subs.
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In the first half they set up wityh 5 in midfield to smother our midfield and it worked. They were looking to stop the ball getting forward and hit us on the break. Tonev started lively enough but we soon found ourselves 2 down and it gave them all the confidence. Yet, we still tried to play the ball around. I'm not saying it was good, but you have to give them, the more experienced midfield a bit of credit for taking their early chances and dominating the midfield area.
In the after match interview both Vlaar and Lambert said that there had been words in the dressing-room at half-time. A few people were told a few things and a few changes made. It worked although I thought our higher tempo turned into us being too keen and over exuberant. We should have been a little bit more patient ratehr than trying to rush things. I always felt, though, that 2-1 would become 2-2.
Other than the opening period I thought tehd efence, and in particular Vlaar were fantastic second half. A free-kick into the mixer on 60 mins when he had a head of steam up, and a corner in the dying seconds. Last season they would have been goals. This season, and last night, they did not create one chance in the second half from a ball into the box. Not only Vlaar, but Bacuna got his head onto everything. As did Baker.
Talking of whom I can't see how he was singled out for criticism for the first two goals. A lovely take down and brilliant finish for the first. Bacuna poor pass for the first and as Long went wide Guzan should have come out further to push Long wide. baker had got back onto the line and would have made the finish a lot more difficult.
Yes, we didn't play well and we come away with something. We are still a young side and Roma weren't built overnight. I don't know what to expect Saturday but I go into the game without fear, trepidation, or panic. That in itself is an improvement.
As for the Albion. 'We know what we are. Pride of the Midlands'. This got me thinking. Surely to be the pride of anywhere or anything you will have either had some tangible success, or have been valiant in your resolve to attain something brilliant or to excel. Have they? Are they the pride of the midlands now simply because they've had a couple of seasons above us? Are they setting the bar that low becausethe only thing they can try and achieve? If we lose 1-0 on Saturday and they lose 3-0, are we then the pride of the midlands again because we'll be above them?
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but chancing Lowton at right back and pushing Bacuna into midfield should certainly be considered for Sunderland
Definitely. Also, whilst every game is different, Lowton had an amazing game against Sunderland last season.
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Last season we were all gutted to go in 2-0 up at half time and come away with just one point. This year we appear to be gutted that we went in 2-0 down at half time but still managed to come away with a point. To be honest I didn't expect anything other than a complete tonking after 20 minutes. I thought the spirit was really good. Whatever, it's a point.
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Well done lads, well done Lambert. Subs made the difference.
Happy with the draw, especially from 2 down.
Lots of negatives but can't be arsed with that for now, other than to say it proves our squad is not strong enough and you cannot play Benteke/Kodak without wingers.
Don't agree, good delivery is all it needs, we didn't play with wingers last season and Benteke did perfectly well, he just needs a goal, he's looked out of sorts since his injury
Yes, but last season Benteke was playing up front with Gabby.
The point I'm making is that playing Benteke TOGETHER with Kozak requires width (ok not necessarily wingers) which is something Lambert doesnt appear to favour. IMO we can only afford to play one of them at a time.
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Is there a 'rose tinted spectacles' thread as well?
I see where you are going with this DCF! It's next to "Blinkers On" thread. Have a look around....
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It is strange that a few weeks ago people were wondering what Sylla had done not get a place in the side. He has one bad game (as did KEA and Westwood in the first half) and now people want him dropped.
Maybe we should move this thread to the "Are we fickle" thread.
Is there a 'rose tinted spectacles' thread as well?
Somewhere, there must be.
There's plenty of "Reasons to be Cheerful" threads. Basically the same thing.
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Stripey update. The one from work I was on about earlier still hasnt spoken to anyone yet.
Not just Villa fans, or about football, he hasnt actually said a word to anyone in the 5 hours he has been here.
Looks like they are hurting today.
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No Albion fans on here this morning?
Playtime is from 12 until 1 so you think they'd have been on by now. Strange.
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It is strange that a few weeks ago people were wondering what Sylla had done not get a place in the side. He has one bad game (as did KEA and Westwood in the first half) and now people want him dropped.
No player performs at top level every week. Likes of RVP and Rooney etc are no different. They all need competition and"rest" now and than. Some top players are kept in the team despite poor form simply because of the perceived threat that plays on oppositions mind and helps other players in the team. For us Benteke is a good example of that just now.
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Looking back I can see what Lambert was trying to do and it seems obvious the triple subbing was always on the cards at around the hour mark if we were losing as it was not prudent to start them. Therefore I apologise to Mr Lambert for doubting him on that point.
However...
The reason we do not cross the ball into the area for our two lofty forwards is a mystery. Is it lack of skill or a tactic? I do not doubt we shall be wondering this on Saturday even though i think we will win.
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Someone said we should have been five goals down at half time. They had one shot on target in the second half so from that I'm guessing some people would say 6-0 would have been the fair result.
And still we didn't manage to achieve the impossible and make Steve Clarke look even more miserable than usual.
A lot of people are saying shots on target as the only way to miss "sitters". Hitting the woodwork is counted as off-target which Kozak did, with Myhill stranded. While for them Sessegnon had two glorious chances - the miskick at the far post and the one he blazed over with the goal gaping. Both off-target but both complete sitters. One of Tonev's shots trickled through to Myhill. Just because it was on target doesn't suddenly elevate it to being a better chance than the ones abovementioned cos it wasn't.
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Oh, and enough with the flares.
Yesterday, some prat in the top of the stand lit a flare and then it was thrown down to where I was in the middle.
Clearly those weren't firework sniffing dogs outside
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We might as well sell Benteke now for all the service we're giving him. The crossing (when we bothered) was worse than Sunday under 12 level
Mind you, so was most of the football to be honest
I'm still firmly in the I don't know where we're going camp.
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Oh, and enough with the flares.
Yesterday, some prat in the top of the stand lit a flare and then it was thrown down to where I was in the middle.
Clearly those weren't firework sniffing dogs outside
If you're on about that purple coloured one, we weren't far away from it. They're bloody pointless.
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We must be the worst team in the whole league at keeping possession from throw-ins, it's so infuriating.
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We might as well sell Benteke now for all the service we're giving him. The crossing (when we bothered) was worse than Sunday under 12 level
Mind you, so was most of the football to be honest
I'm still firmly in the I don't know where we're going camp.
We're going from relegation contenders to solid mid-table, where we go after there is to be seen.
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We must be the worst team in the whole league at keeping possession from throw-ins, it's so infuriating.
I think that ever since I've been watch the Villa, which isn't as long as some on here, we seem to take the world's worst throw ins.
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Our throws are great... player taking the throw normally flings the ball at the closest player so it hits them somewhere between the thigh and the neck... giving our limited footballers even less chance to control the thing...
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I'm not buying this Lambert is ok cos of the 3 subs.
It was a monumental fuck up on his part leaving those guys out + Lowton.
The guy is very very naive.
Don't you think he did well with the substitutions?
Regardless of you don't think he should have started with that line up, don't you reckon he did well to get us a point out of that? Given that we were two goals down after 11 minutes?
bloody Robbie Mustoe said exactly the three subs for the three players at HT to be changed , you didnt need to be no expert to make those changes .
Gary Neville made what I thought was a very interesting point about this. Lambert is managing confidence of very young, inexperienced players. Neville's view point was that he probably decided to give it 10-15 minutes so as to show respect to those that started the game and not destroy their confidence because he said on the occasions he had been hauled off at Half Time it had severely impacted the confidence of him and the dressing room.
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Originally I was screaming at the TV about if the three are fit enough they should be starting but given the limited options available to us in the event one or all three go off injured again I soon changed my viewpoint and I thought it was exactly the right tactic and sensible management of them. They made a huge difference of course but the player I was slagging off the most started and in fact pulled a goal back for us. And looking at that goal again I don't think he gets the credit he deserves for the quality of the finish that hung in the air for a while and KEA put it away very well.
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Someone said we should have been five goals down at half time. They had one shot on target in the second half so from that I'm guessing some people would say 6-0 would have been the fair result.
And still we didn't manage to achieve the impossible and make Steve Clarke look even more miserable than usual.
A lot of people are saying shots on target as the only way to miss "sitters". Hitting the woodwork is counted as off-target which Kozak did, with Myhill stranded. While for them Sessegnon had two glorious chances - the miskick at the far post and the one he blazed over with the goal gaping. Both off-target but both complete sitters. One of Tonev's shots trickled through to Myhill. Just because it was on target doesn't suddenly elevate it to being a better chance than the ones abovementioned cos it wasn't.
I was going to make that point too Eamonn.
On a separate point I have a French mate staying here at the moment and he was amazed at the poor technical quality of British players. I had to point out to him that half the players he was laughing at weren't British and that Sylla was one of his own....
Westwood's goal gets better every time I see it. I truly didn't know he could shoot like that.
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I've got no problem with players on the bench who arnt 100% fit, we had 3 last night who it was probably best not to give them 90 minutes,
but when the lineup isn't working and you are 2 down in the first 10 minutes and looking like conceding more, then you have to act
Tonev looks like a fan that won a competition to play in with the big boys for a game, and just shoots all the time, why he was still playing at the start of the second half I have no idea
Sylla was just as bad, I've never agreed with this Sylla in for KEA (see the thread) he was hopeless, KEA is 10 times the better midfielder in my view
in fact Herd would be a far better option in midfield than Sylla
when the subs were made (to late in my view) you could see the lift it gave the team, why the fuck we were pissing about with a system that wasn't working for so long is anyones guess, bringing 3 unfit subs on to try and save the day is not the only option, but even those subs 20% fit will improve the side over Tonev and Sylla last night
i'm fully behind Lambert, and have been from the start,
I have argued long and hard at times falling out with no end of people last season who wanted him out, so i'm not being hyper critical when I say Lambert has to see the mistakes earlier, it was plain for all to see, the starting line up should have been changed in some way after 15 minutes it was that bad
having said that, even at 2 down I always thought get one back and we could turn it round, which we eventually did, but not until the personnel on the pitch changed,
it was a good night overall, but I have some harbouring doubts creeping in as to Lamberts decisions at times
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There is one more nagging point, and it's this: if we're going to split into factions of happy clappers and miserablists all over again, we're going to have to get Greg Nash back.
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There is one more nagging point, and it's this: if we're going to split into factions of happy clappers and miserablists all over again, we're going to have to get Greg Nash back.
And a welcome addition to the forum he would be - may not have agreed with all he said but he seemed a decent enough chap.
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Correct. Then he did the stroppy three player sub which always means 'you lot are crap'. It was not tactical at all. The bloke had fucked up again and is another O'Neill with his stubborness.
DC5 you paid your money and are entitled to your opinion. You can see it the way you did or recognise it as game changer ploy. When Fergie did this sort of thing he was of course genius however Lambert is stroppy and stubborn?
I hate to bring it up but I refer to the introduction of Van Nistlerooy with just 25 minutes left against us in the Cup all those horrible years ago. Ferguson had no intention of bringing him on because he was trying to preserve him for the league but when they went 2-0 down on he came. That was management genius - what Lambert did wasn't apparently.
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There is one more nagging point, and it's this: if we're going to split into factions of happy clappers and miserablists all over again, we're going to have to get Greg Nash back.
And a welcome addition to the forum he would be - may not have agreed with all he said but he seemed a decent enough chap.
He seemed like a bit of a twat to me, but each to their own.
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Greg Nash would be like a breath of fresh twat.
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Popped into the bookies en route to watching the game at the pub to put a quid on 2-2 based on a gut feeling. Tidy 15 quid to go towards my beer money for the month!
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The left back position is still a worry to me - luna has been hit and miss and Bennett was similar last season , baker or Clark in the role doesn't fill me with confidence either .
I hope luna in time can make the position his but he has had a couple of real roastings already this season .
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Popped into the bookies en route to watching the game at the pub to put a quid on 2-2 based on a gut feeling. Tidy 15 quid to go towards my beer money for the month!
Beer at your age ? You should be spending it all on that girlfriend of yours you naughty lad :)
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Can I just add that some of the criticism of the manager, his tactics and the line up are ridiculous, and indeed arrogant.
Most fools would follow conventional wisdom, ie. if he's fit enough for the bench, he's fit enough to start etc. but that is plainly one of those football truisms that's just bollocks.
Had they all started, then there's a good chance they would have faded, and in the back of their mind they'd be thinking of saving themselves a bit to go 90 minutes.
What we instead saw was them come on knowing they could go flat out for 30 mins against tiring legs.
It's a judgement call, but to pillory for him when he probably got it spot on is just crap
And also, he moved Delph out to left wing back, and that completely locked that side up when we were getting murdered down there, so kudos again.
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Popped into the bookies en route to watching the game at the pub to put a quid on 2-2 based on a gut feeling. Tidy 15 quid to go towards my beer money for the month!
Beer at your age ? You should be spending it all on that girlfriend of yours you naughty lad :)
She's demanded I take her out for a nandos after she found out. Living the high life.
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Popped into the bookies en route to watching the game at the pub to put a quid on 2-2 based on a gut feeling. Tidy 15 quid to go towards my beer money for the month!
Beer at your age ? You should be spending it all on that girlfriend of yours you naughty lad :)
She's demanded I take her out for a nandos after she found out. Living the high life.
And quite right too !
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The Telegraph website football page
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/
Keep scrolling down and eventually you'll see that a game was actually played last night
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There is one more nagging point, and it's this: if we're going to split into factions of happy clappers and miserablists all over again, we're going to have to get Greg Nash back.
And a welcome addition to the forum he would be - may not have agreed with all he said but he seemed a decent enough chap.
He seemed like a bit of a twat to me, but each to their own.
He's not been missed.
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When did we last come from 0-2 down to draw 2-2? I genuinely don't remember
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There is one more nagging point, and it's this: if we're going to split into factions of happy clappers and miserablists all over again, we're going to have to get Greg Nash back.
And a welcome addition to the forum he would be - may not have agreed with all he said but he seemed a decent enough chap.
He seemed like a bit of a twat to me, but each to their own.
He's not been missed.
Edit.
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There is one more nagging point, and it's this: if we're going to split into factions of happy clappers and miserablists all over again, we're going to have to get Greg Nash back.
And a welcome addition to the forum he would be - may not have agreed with all he said but he seemed a decent enough chap.
He seemed like a bit of a twat to me, but each to their own.
He's not been missed.
Bang on cue :)
Leeb called him a twat, but comment on mine as usual.
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There is one more nagging point, and it's this: if we're going to split into factions of happy clappers and miserablists all over again, we're going to have to get Greg Nash back.
And a welcome addition to the forum he would be - may not have agreed with all he said but he seemed a decent enough chap.
He seemed like a bit of a twat to me, but each to their own.
He's not been missed.
Bang on cue :)
Can you post fiver today please dan ;)
Not being funny mate, but if I was Clampy you would seriously be doing my head in.
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Sorry - no offence meant , was a bit of banter between me and danlanza - i apologise !
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I missed the first 20 mins thankfully. Well taken goals by Long having now seen them but what shocking defending. Inexcusable is the only word to describe it. I thought we battled hard overall, had Albion under pressure for the best part and thoroughly deserved the draw. A win against Sunderland on Saturday and last night's result will appear a better one.
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I missed the first 20 mins thankfully. Well taken goals by Long having now seen them but what shocking defending. Inexcusable is the only word to describe it. I thought we battled hard overall, had Albion under pressure for the best part and thoroughly deserved the draw. A win against Sunderland on Saturday and last night's result will appear a better one.
Yes if we can beat sunderland we should be into he top 10, I think it will be great progress if so considering the injuries and fixture list.
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Hmmm I thought we were shocking upto the triple change then superb for 30 mins then a bit leggy last 5 mins.
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Hmmm I thought we were shocking upto the triple change then superb for 30 mins then a bit leggy last 5 mins.
At 2-2 I thought we would go on to win it to be honest .
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A bit worrying that ads has still not posted - he is usually on here a lot and as others have said was going to the pub which the Albion fans attacked - I hope he is ok!
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I just drove past the pub the Albion fans apparently attacked, there seem to be about 3 tiny windows damaged, they are even shit at breaking stuff.
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When did we last come from 0-2 down to draw 2-2? I genuinely don't remember
Arsenal boxing day 2008 springs to mind
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When did we last come from 0-2 down to draw 2-2? I genuinely don't remember
Arsenal boxing day 2008 springs to mind
Blimey that zat knight goal was never 5 years ago ! Scary
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Did anyone else who was there remember the pitchside announcer say during that half time competition thing 'we've scored two goals against Villa', then dragged out Paul Scharner to tell everyone about his winner at Villa Park.
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I just drove past the pub the Albion fans apparently attacked, there seem to be about 3 tiny windows damaged, they are even shit at breaking stuff.
The funniest bit is that they walked into the pub, shouted "where's the Villa fans?", decided they'd spotted them and threw some bottles at them.
At which point, two coppers who happened to have been sat in the pub at the time, stood up and arrested them.
I don't mean this in a childish "your firm is not, err, very naughty" way, but really, what utterly shit hooligans.
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Greg Nash would be like a breath of fresh twat.
Brilliant...however you know that never happens!
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When did we last come from 0-2 down to draw 2-2? I genuinely don't remember
Arsenal boxing day 2008 springs to mind
Blimey that zat knight goal was never 5 years ago ! Scary
I know, I remember around that time being scared to think it was five years since we almost made the CL in O'Dreary's first season. Where the heck are the years going?
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I just drove past the pub the Albion fans apparently attacked, there seem to be about 3 tiny windows damaged, they are even shit at breaking stuff.
The funniest bit is that they walked into the pub, shouted "where's the Villa fans?", decided they'd spotted them and threw some bottles at them.
At which point, two coppers who happened to have been sat in the pub at the time, stood up and arrested them.
I don't mean this in a childish "your firm is not, err, very naughty" way, but really, what utterly shit hooligans.
The Rose Villa isn't really known as a moody Villa hoodies pub, is it? Those Albion fans must be so thick they think that just because it's got 'Villa' in its name, it's the Hardcore HQ. By that rationale, the City Tavern should be wary when the bitter birds are at home to Leicester in the Championship.
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I hate to bring it up but I refer to the introduction of Van Nistlerooy with just 25 minutes left against us in the Cup all those horrible years ago. Ferguson had no intention of bringing him on because he was trying to preserve him for the league but when they went 2-0 down on he came. That was management genius - what Lambert did wasn't apparently.
Yes remember that. It was double subs with VNR and Keane coming on and whole atmosphere on and off the pitch changed. Last night to see 3 subs lined up to come on as early as the 55th minute sent a shudder around the ground. It was a signal that we mean business. I see that the whole media is mentioning the Lambert move and some last night were comparing him to AVB and his inert subs on Sunday.
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Wenger did the same against us with Fabregas. He was crocked but he was still brought on with half an hour to go and got them the win.
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I once saw mourinho make 3 changes about 20 minutes into a game during his 1st Chelsea spell- genius or madness?
I suppose it does take balls because to use all 3 subs with so long to go leaves the possibility of ending up with 10 men if an injury occurs- now we really must kick on and beat the mackems.
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I expected the trio of subs to have an impact but not quite such a massive immediate influence on the game. It totally threw them and the few fans they had in the stadium.
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Wenger did the same against us with Fabregas. He was crocked but he was still brought on with half an hour to go and got them the win.
I remember it well, we looked comfortable and 0-0 and lost 3-0 after fabregas changed the game.
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I expected the trio of subs to have an impact but not quite such a massive immediate influence on the game. It totally threw them and the few fans they had in the stadium.
Yes all 3 had an impact and Delph looked very assured as usual , the subs changed the game against Cardiff too with bacuna released to go forward when Lowton came on .
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I expected the trio of subs to have an impact but not quite such a massive immediate influence on the game. It totally threw them and the few fans they had in the stadium.
I see you are posting much better now than you did last night after the match.
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The gist of their forums are that a draw was a fair result. Also that Lambert's substitutions and tactics second half were spot on and Clarke failed to react. They don't like Popov and I think Sessegnon has some making up to do with them. They also cite the non availability of Foster, Ridgewell and Jones.
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The gist of their forums are that a draw was a fair result. Also that Lambert's substitutions and tactics second half were spot on and Clarke failed to react. They don't like Popov and I think Sessegnon has some making up to do with them. They also cite the non availability of Foster, Ridgewell and Jones.
Dixie popped in earlier and said similar - a good game and fair result.
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I expected the trio of subs to have an impact but not quite such a massive immediate influence on the game. It totally threw them and the few fans they had in the stadium.
Yes all 3 had an impact and Delph looked very assured as usual , the subs changed the game against Cardiff too with bacuna released to go forward when Lowton came on .
I just loved the way they came on. These were men on a mission. They fucking sprinted on at high pace. There was an "oh shit" look on the baggies players faces.
That and when lambert took his jacket off were two greta moments :)
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I expected the trio of subs to have an impact but not quite such a massive immediate influence on the game. It totally threw them and the few fans they had in the stadium.
Yes all 3 had an impact and Delph looked very assured as usual , the subs changed the game against Cardiff too with bacuna released to go forward when Lowton came on .
I just loved the way they came on. These were men on a mission. They fucking sprinted on at high pace. There was an "oh shit" look on the baggies players faces.
That and when lambert took his jacket off were two greta moments :)
Garbo ?
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I expected the trio of subs to have an impact but not quite such a massive immediate influence on the game. It totally threw them and the few fans they had in the stadium.
Yes all 3 had an impact and Delph looked very assured as usual , the subs changed the game against Cardiff too with bacuna released to go forward when Lowton came on .
I just loved the way they came on. These were men on a mission. They fucking sprinted on at high pace. There was an "oh shit" look on the baggies players faces.
That and when lambert took his jacket off were two greta moments :)
Yes, good spot. It wasn't just the seemingly negative impact it had on Albion players it was the positive impact it had on our players on the pitch and those watching too. Gabby puts fear into local opposition. Weimann is relentless and Delph is becoming our General. We need them fully fit.
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Last night was like having a near miss in the car. You pull over, and you're fine, but your heart is pounding and you're furious with everyone. Takes a while to calm down.
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I expected the trio of subs to have an impact but not quite such a massive immediate influence on the game. It totally threw them and the few fans they had in the stadium.
Yes all 3 had an impact and Delph looked very assured as usual , the subs changed the game against Cardiff too with bacuna released to go forward when Lowton came on .
I just loved the way they came on. These were men on a mission. They fucking sprinted on at high pace. There was an "oh shit" look on the baggies players faces.
That and when lambert took his jacket off were two greta moments :)
Garbo ?
It was beautiful to me :D
Yes, good spot. It wasn't just the seemingly negative impact it had on Albion players it was the positive impact it had on our players on the pitch and those watching too. Gabby puts fear into local opposition. Weimann is relentless and Delph is becoming our General. We need them fully fit.
Gabby was SO up for it. Anyone else notice the abuse he got from the local mongrels when he went off pitch to pick up the ball? Tossers.
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Can I just add that some of the criticism of the manager, his tactics and the line up are ridiculous, and indeed arrogant.
Most fools would follow conventional wisdom, ie. if he's fit enough for the bench, he's fit enough to start etc. but that is plainly one of those football truisms that's just bollocks.
Had they all started, then there's a good chance they would have faded, and in the back of their mind they'd be thinking of saving themselves a bit to go 90 minutes.
What we instead saw was them come on knowing they could go flat out for 30 mins against tiring legs.
It's a judgement call, but to pillory for him when he probably got it spot on is just crap
And also, he moved Delph out to left wing back, and that completely locked that side up when we were getting murdered down there, so kudos again.
Did you see the Cardiff game? If you had then you would have seen the starting line up last night struggle badly against a very ordinary outfit and the performance only improve when changes were made.
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Can I just add that some of the criticism of the manager, his tactics and the line up are ridiculous, and indeed arrogant.
Most fools would follow conventional wisdom, ie. if he's fit enough for the bench, he's fit enough to start etc. but that is plainly one of those football truisms that's just bollocks.
Had they all started, then there's a good chance they would have faded, and in the back of their mind they'd be thinking of saving themselves a bit to go 90 minutes.
What we instead saw was them come on knowing they could go flat out for 30 mins against tiring legs.
It's a judgement call, but to pillory for him when he probably got it spot on is just crap
And also, he moved Delph out to left wing back, and that completely locked that side up when we were getting murdered down there, so kudos again.
Did you see the Cardiff game? If you had then you would have seen the starting line up last night struggle badly against a very ordinary outfit and the performance only improve when changes were made.
That's because we're a very ordinary outfit ourselves, which is a vast improvement on the very poor outfit of January. This time next year I expect similar improvement.
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that ordinary outfit that equalised against the Premier league champions in fergie time no less. As I have had great pleasure in telling all the manc twats at work this week (sorry, cockerney twats).
That Westwood goal is bloody magic. I could watch that every day
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Can I just add that some of the criticism of the manager, his tactics and the line up are ridiculous, and indeed arrogant.
Most fools would follow conventional wisdom, ie. if he's fit enough for the bench, he's fit enough to start etc. but that is plainly one of those football truisms that's just bollocks.
Had they all started, then there's a good chance they would have faded, and in the back of their mind they'd be thinking of saving themselves a bit to go 90 minutes.
What we instead saw was them come on knowing they could go flat out for 30 mins against tiring legs.
It's a judgement call, but to pillory for him when he probably got it spot on is just crap
And also, he moved Delph out to left wing back, and that completely locked that side up when we were getting murdered down there, so kudos again.
Did you see the Cardiff game? If you had then you would have seen the starting line up last night struggle badly against a very ordinary outfit and the performance only improve when changes were made.
So with key players half fit, he's managed us to 4 points in those two games.
The useless bastard.
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Can I just add that some of the criticism of the manager, his tactics and the line up are ridiculous, and indeed arrogant.
Most fools would follow conventional wisdom, ie. if he's fit enough for the bench, he's fit enough to start etc. but that is plainly one of those football truisms that's just bollocks.
Had they all started, then there's a good chance they would have faded, and in the back of their mind they'd be thinking of saving themselves a bit to go 90 minutes.
What we instead saw was them come on knowing they could go flat out for 30 mins against tiring legs.
It's a judgement call, but to pillory for him when he probably got it spot on is just crap
And also, he moved Delph out to left wing back, and that completely locked that side up when we were getting murdered down there, so kudos again.
Did you see the Cardiff game? If you had then you would have seen the starting line up last night struggle badly against a very ordinary outfit and the performance only improve when changes were made.
So with key players half fit, he's managed us to 4 points in those two games.
The useless bastard.
Hear 'kin hear!!
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When the subs came on spirits were raised dramatically. Baggies fans around me where taking the piss but soon shut up as we got back into it. They were also singing a song about popov to the tune of Popeye the sailor man but soon dropped that once he started having a mare. That was the story of the second half, we shut the f****** up completely.
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Can I just add that some of the criticism of the manager, his tactics and the line up are ridiculous, and indeed arrogant.
Most fools would follow conventional wisdom, ie. if he's fit enough for the bench, he's fit enough to start etc. but that is plainly one of those football truisms that's just bollocks.
Had they all started, then there's a good chance they would have faded, and in the back of their mind they'd be thinking of saving themselves a bit to go 90 minutes.
What we instead saw was them come on knowing they could go flat out for 30 mins against tiring legs.
It's a judgement call, but to pillory for him when he probably got it spot on is just crap
And also, he moved Delph out to left wing back, and that completely locked that side up when we were getting murdered down there, so kudos again.
Spot on. He is getting more credit on the Albion forums than on here.
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I expected the trio of subs to have an impact but not quite such a massive immediate influence on the game. It totally threw them and the few fans they had in the stadium.
Yes all 3 had an impact and Delph looked very assured as usual , the subs changed the game against Cardiff too with bacuna released to go forward when Lowton came on .
I just loved the way they came on. These were men on a mission. They fucking sprinted on at high pace. There was an "oh shit" look on the baggies players faces.
That and when lambert took his jacket off were two greta moments :)
My son and I got quite pumped up when Lambert took off his jacket. Sometimes it's the silly little things isn't it?
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Can I just add that some of the criticism of the manager, his tactics and the line up are ridiculous, and indeed arrogant.
Most fools would follow conventional wisdom, ie. if he's fit enough for the bench, he's fit enough to start etc. but that is plainly one of those football truisms that's just bollocks.
Had they all started, then there's a good chance they would have faded, and in the back of their mind they'd be thinking of saving themselves a bit to go 90 minutes.
What we instead saw was them come on knowing they could go flat out for 30 mins against tiring legs.
It's a judgement call, but to pillory for him when he probably got it spot on is just crap
And also, he moved Delph out to left wing back, and that completely locked that side up when we were getting murdered down there, so kudos again.
Did you see the Cardiff game? If you had then you would have seen the starting line up last night struggle badly against a very ordinary outfit and the performance only improve when changes were made.
That's because we're a very ordinary outfit ourselves, which is a vast improvement on the very poor outfit of January. This time next year I expect similar improvement.
I see 9th to 12th being between us, Albion, newcastle and swansea any of those places would represent solid improvement this season - then again next season we can look to perhaps chasing a top 8 position .
I think without huge investment there is only so far you can take a club as moyes found out at everton - maybe a long time before we can set our sights on the top 6 again but top 8 is not too far away .
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The biggest surrender since Villa surrendered the three points in January.
Bitterly disappointed to have thrown the game away but really not surprised. It was evident that once Villa got their first that the equaliser was going to come at some point - I'm just glad that our bottlers didn't give it away completely and give them a third.
I thought we was very good in the first half although I think Villa being totally abject may somewhat have enhanced our performance in my view. I certainly feel we could play better. I've been a critic of Shane Long over the past couple of months but he was very good in the first half, he caused them endless amounts of problems and took both goals extremely well. We should really have put the game behind you in the first half. Stephane Sessegnon missed a sitter and then did exactly the same in the second half.
The second half was a total calamity. Clarke didn't react to Villa making the three subs and we tended to play Villa's game of kick and rush rather than our own. They got in our faces, made life difficult and therefore our ball retention became very poor.
Mulumbu and Long were the stand out performers for me. Extremely disappointed in Goran Popov who was at fault for both goals. The first he stood in no mans land forcing Brunt into a one on one situation with Bacuna and the second he headed the ball into the wrong area - a good striker from Westwood, however.
Fair play to Villa for turning round - the changes were obvious and I'm surprised all three weren't made at half time.
Disappointed but not surprised, either.
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Popped into the bookies en route to watching the game at the pub to put a quid on 2-2 based on a gut feeling. Tidy 15 quid to go towards my beer money for the month!
That would be close to 3 pints in my local.
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The biggest surrender since Villa surrendered the three points in January.
Bitterly disappointed to have thrown the game away but really not surprised. It was evident that once Villa got their first that the equaliser was going to come at some point - I'm just glad that our bottlers didn't give it away completely and give them a third.
I thought we was very good in the first half although I think Villa being totally abject may somewhat have enhanced our performance in my view. I certainly feel we could play better. I've been a critic of Shane Long over the past couple of months but he was very good in the first half, he caused them endless amounts of problems and took both goals extremely well. We should really have put the game behind you in the first half. Stephane Sessegnon missed a sitter and then did exactly the same in the second half.
The second half was a total calamity. Clarke didn't react to Villa making the three subs and we tended to play Villa's game of kick and rush rather than our own. They got in our faces, made life difficult and therefore our ball retention became very poor.
Mulumbu and Long were the stand out performers for me. Extremely disappointed in Goran Popov who was at fault for both goals. The first he stood in no mans land forcing Brunt into a one on one situation with Bacuna and the second he headed the ball into the wrong area - a good striker from Westwood, however.
Fair play to Villa for turning round - the changes were obvious and I'm surprised all three weren't made at half time.
Disappointed but not surprised, either.
Fair enough comments mate .
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Can I just add that some of the criticism of the manager, his tactics and the line up are ridiculous, and indeed arrogant.
Most fools would follow conventional wisdom, ie. if he's fit enough for the bench, he's fit enough to start etc. but that is plainly one of those football truisms that's just bollocks.
Had they all started, then there's a good chance they would have faded, and in the back of their mind they'd be thinking of saving themselves a bit to go 90 minutes.
What we instead saw was them come on knowing they could go flat out for 30 mins against tiring legs.
It's a judgement call, but to pillory for him when he probably got it spot on is just crap
And also, he moved Delph out to left wing back, and that completely locked that side up when we were getting murdered down there, so kudos again.
Did you see the Cardiff game? If you had then you would have seen the starting line up last night struggle badly against a very ordinary outfit and the performance only improve when changes were made.
That's because we're a very ordinary outfit ourselves, which is a vast improvement on the very poor outfit of January. This time next year I expect similar improvement.
Accept that Dave, but I felt there were clear areas of improvement during the Cardiff game when changes were made. Bringing Lowton on and moving Bacuna further forward made a big difference in that game and I think PL could have started with that combination on the right last night. Of course we are not made aware of the fitness levels of returning players and if there were any doubts over Delph, Gabby and Weimann then I can understand why they were held back. Quite why PL waited so long to change things is questionable though.
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In the paper tonight Lambert is quoted as saying about Westwood. 'He's a really clever footballer and he was outstanding.'
Westwood in my opinion is not 'a really clever footballer' not at all. He passes well over 20yards but does not create. He keeps possession well but not for most of this current season. And apart from last night does not offer a goal threat.
What in Gods sake is clever about him?
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Popped into the bookies en route to watching the game at the pub to put a quid on 2-2 based on a gut feeling. Tidy 15 quid to go towards my beer money for the month!
That would be close to 3 pints in my local.
4.68 in mine
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That spank from 25 yards last night is your starting point.
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In the paper tonight Lambert is quoted as saying about Westwood. 'He's a really clever footballer and he was outstanding.'
Westwood in my opinion is not 'a really clever footballer' not at all. He passes well over 20yards but does not create. He keeps possession well but not for most of this current season. And apart from last night does not offer a goal threat.
What for Gods sake is clever about him?
He is good in a three man midfield. He can get on the ball and start moves in that formation and if he played in a team with an attacking midfielder in front of him, he would be able to pick him out. He is, however, not mobile or strong enough to play in a two man midfield and is probably a bit too similar to KEA for them both to be playing in the same team.
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When Westwood played well last season you could see what was clever about him very easily. In possession, he'd always find a teammate and often one in space, including the odd very valuable creative pass. Out of possession he can read the game terrifically well - at times last season he was almost Petrovesque in his ability to be in the right place at the right time in midfield to intercept the ball.
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Tim Westwood is what we have at the moment. Lambert is managing him by bugging him up. That is his job. Progress is painful, its slow. Its progress though.
Some of the comments on here defy logic. For the first time in years were having stability. We needed it.
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I'm still not sure what to make of Westwood but there up much to admire there.
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The biggest surrender since Villa surrendered the three points in January.
Bitterly disappointed to have thrown the game away but really not surprised. It was evident that once Villa got their first that the equaliser was going to come at some point - I'm just glad that our bottlers didn't give it away completely and give them a third.
I thought we was very good in the first half although I think Villa being totally abject may somewhat have enhanced our performance in my view. I certainly feel we could play better. I've been a critic of Shane Long over the past couple of months but he was very good in the first half, he caused them endless amounts of problems and took both goals extremely well. We should really have put the game behind you in the first half. Stephane Sessegnon missed a sitter and then did exactly the same in the second half.
The second half was a total calamity. Clarke didn't react to Villa making the three subs and we tended to play Villa's game of kick and rush rather than our own. They got in our faces, made life difficult and therefore our ball retention became very poor.
Mulumbu and Long were the stand out performers for me. Extremely disappointed in Goran Popov who was at fault for both goals. The first he stood in no mans land forcing Brunt into a one on one situation with Bacuna and the second he headed the ball into the wrong area - a good striker from Westwood, however.
Fair play to Villa for turning round - the changes were obvious and I'm surprised all three weren't made at half time.
Disappointed but not surprised, either.
Fair enough comments mate .
I'd take issue with the reference to "Villa's game of kick and rush".
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Tim Westwood is what we have at the moment. Lambert is managing him by bugging him up. That is his job. Progress is painful, its slow. Its progress though.
Some of the comments on here defy logic. For the first time in years were having stability. We needed it.
Spelling error...surely you mean buggering ;)
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Tim?
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I'd take issue with the reference to "Villa's game of kick and rush".
It came forward quickly from the back, and your whole side ran as far up the pitch as possible to trap us in.
Hence the expression kick it, and then rush after the ball - you very rarely had moments of continued, sustained possession.
We stupidly started doing the same thing and kept gifting you possession.
It turned into a pin ball game at one point in the second half.
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I'm still not sure what to make of Westwood but there up much to admire there.
I thought he was great in the second half.
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Some of the comments on here defy logic.
Have you read the match thread? It seems to mirror a lot of what was being said at the game.
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Tim Westwood is what we have at the moment. Lambert is managing him by bugging him up. That is his job. Progress is painful, its slow. Its progress though.
Some of the comments on here defy logic. For the first time in years were having stability. We needed it.
Spelling error...surely you mean buggering ;)
Oh I say , surely not :(
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I'd take issue with the reference to "Villa's game of kick and rush".
Really? How else would you describe our tactics?
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A pleasing result for us in the end. The albion fans were singing away like the game was in the bag and it was just a question of how many. One thing I've learned over the years watching villa is not to start laughing at the opposition too early. It will probably be remembered more than some of our wins this season. There's not much between the two sides now although I expect us to finish higher than we did last season and them to finish lower than they did.
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Can I just add that some of the criticism of the manager, his tactics and the line up are ridiculous, and indeed arrogant.
Most fools would follow conventional wisdom, ie. if he's fit enough for the bench, he's fit enough to start etc. but that is plainly one of those football truisms that's just bollocks.
Had they all started, then there's a good chance they would have faded, and in the back of their mind they'd be thinking of saving themselves a bit to go 90 minutes.
What we instead saw was them come on knowing they could go flat out for 30 mins against tiring legs.
It's a judgement call, but to pillory for him when he probably got it spot on is just crap
And also, he moved Delph out to left wing back, and that completely locked that side up when we were getting murdered down there, so kudos again.
That would have been theplan whethr 2-0 down or not I reckon. Maybe not all 3 but two of them at least and have run against tiringlegs whilst still in the game. being 2 down and not playing particularly made him gamble on all 3 coming on. A risk which came off. Good managers learn to be lucky ones also. and welldone the team for keeping the tempo up when we were chasing the game.
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I'd take issue with the reference to "Villa's game of kick and rush".
Really? How else would you describe our tactics?
Pressure the opposition high up the pitch, to win the ball back and get at them before they can reorganise. It's how a lot of teams in England play, it's too cold to ponce around at half pace like they do in Portugal. ;¬)
Seriously, when we're playing well it's a pressing game or a counter attacking game depending on circumstances but we also do try to play a more measured game when get the opportunity, it's just that style takes a while to develop.
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The biggest surrender since Villa surrendered the three points in January.
Bitterly disappointed to have thrown the game away but really not surprised. It was evident that once Villa got their first that the equaliser was going to come at some point - I'm just glad that our bottlers didn't give it away completely and give them a third.
I thought we was very good in the first half although I think Villa being totally abject may somewhat have enhanced our performance in my view. I certainly feel we could play better. I've been a critic of Shane Long over the past couple of months but he was very good in the first half, he caused them endless amounts of problems and took both goals extremely well. We should really have put the game behind you in the first half. Stephane Sessegnon missed a sitter and then did exactly the same in the second half.
The second half was a total calamity. Clarke didn't react to Villa making the three subs and we tended to play Villa's game of kick and rush rather than our own. They got in our faces, made life difficult and therefore our ball retention became very poor.
Mulumbu and Long were the stand out performers for me. Extremely disappointed in Goran Popov who was at fault for both goals. The first he stood in no mans land forcing Brunt into a one on one situation with Bacuna and the second he headed the ball into the wrong area - a good striker from Westwood, however.
Fair play to Villa for turning round - the changes were obvious and I'm surprised all three weren't made at half time.
Disappointed but not surprised, either.
Fair enough comments mate .
I'd take issue with the reference to "Villa's game of kick and rush".
And it was two points surrendered in January as it was two last night.
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Well I have read most of this thread and I still can't quite get my head round it. We obviously started extremely badly, supplemented by a world class bit of skill and found ourselves 2-0. This time last year we could have shipped six. As it happens we spent fifteen minutes after the goal looking like that was exactly what would happen. But then you could visibly watch the team develop the determination to turn it around half way through, Clark was really noticeably trying to get the team going for a start, as was El Ahmadi. We actually grew into the game as the half wore on and it's absolute nonsense to say we could have been 5 down. I am pretty sure they only had four or five shots, and we had more including hitting the bar. Strangely, I actually think Kozak had his best game for us - his touch was much better and he looked more mobile. Tonev is unbelievably raw and slightly overawed at the moment but will be used sparingly and come good.
In the 2nd half, we started off the better team, increasing our foothold in the game and allowing us to throw the three subs on who injected a bit of hunger and pace into the team which at least forced the Albion deeper and allowed us to cross from better areas. Pace is still so important in English football and we had missed it. You might say it's not subtle but it's certainly not wrong either. We deserved our equaliser.
As for the criticism of Westwood, it just seems like a massive bandwagon to me. He definitely started the season off colour but he has got better and better. Only Vlaar played better than him last night for me and that was exactly the type of performance he put in over the back end of last season. He is essentially getting criticised for the same things he was praised for last year. It's bizarre.
Vlaar was excellent. Baker has his uses but struggles against particularly mobile forwards and whether he can work out a way of overcoming those limitations will define his career. Clark was good, El Ahmadi worked hard and had a better second half, Bacuna and Sylla both had very bad nights, Benteke still a threat and won some important headers in the 2nd half.
They aren't a bad side and like us have acquitted themselves well against some of the best teams in the league this season. We are both in a similar position, capable of beating anyone on our day but losing to anyone when it's not. It's clearly progress, I don't understand how anyone can think otherwise.
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*A half-decent sounding Baggie alert*
Disapointed yes. But thought vile would snatch it !
Therefore take a draw.
Should of seen game through however the subs were very successful for villa!
I'm sorry Curt but if you are happy with a point after being 2 0 after 15 minutes and at home then i feel sorry for you
why so? football is a 90 minute game, not a 15 minute game and anything can happen in between. We've seen 3 even 4 goal leads slip in the past, and even to the bigger clubs. It happens and i think people in their right mind feared that if delph/gabby etc came on it may have made them more competitive than they were, lo and behold it did. Its another point, keeps us ticking over and although slightly disappointed with letting a lead slip i won't lose too much sleep over it. Remember, they haven't beaten us since the 2010/11 season and for what were once our dominating rivals, that ain't bad at all
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The biggest surrender since Villa surrendered the three points in January.
Bitterly disappointed to have thrown the game away but really not surprised. It was evident that once Villa got their first that the equaliser was going to come at some point - I'm just glad that our bottlers didn't give it away completely and give them a third.
I thought we was very good in the first half although I think Villa being totally abject may somewhat have enhanced our performance in my view. I certainly feel we could play better. I've been a critic of Shane Long over the past couple of months but he was very good in the first half, he caused them endless amounts of problems and took both goals extremely well. We should really have put the game behind you in the first half. Stephane Sessegnon missed a sitter and then did exactly the same in the second half.
The second half was a total calamity. Clarke didn't react to Villa making the three subs and we tended to play Villa's game of kick and rush rather than our own. They got in our faces, made life difficult and therefore our ball retention became very poor.
Mulumbu and Long were the stand out performers for me. Extremely disappointed in Goran Popov who was at fault for both goals. The first he stood in no mans land forcing Brunt into a one on one situation with Bacuna and the second he headed the ball into the wrong area - a good striker from Westwood, however.
Fair play to Villa for turning round - the changes were obvious and I'm surprised all three weren't made at half time.
Disappointed but not surprised, either.
Fair enough comments mate .
I'd take issue with the reference to "Villa's game of kick and rush".
Particularly given their first hoofball goal.
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Particularly given their first hoofball goal.
Hoofball does great disservice to Chris Brunt who played a fantastically timed ball to Shane Long who used great technique to control the ball in the air and finish.
Had it been Jonas Olsson supplying the pass, I would have agreed with you.
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And it was two points surrendered in January as it was two last night.
I agree with that, too. Like last night, the game in January should have been past us before half time. Lichaj missed a great chance.
Last night was a complete role reversal.
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I'd take issue with the reference to "Villa's game of kick and rush".
Really? How else would you describe our tactics?
Pressure the opposition high up the pitch, to win the ball back and get at them before they can reorganise. It's how a lot of teams in England play, it's too cold to ponce around at half pace like they do in Portugal. ;¬)
Seriously, when we're playing well it's a pressing game or a counter attacking game depending on circumstances but we also do try to play a more measured game when get the opportunity, it's just that style takes a while to develop.
Ha! I agree Chris but rather than bury my head in the sand I'm concerned with the lack of tactics from Lambert. It appears that unless we have a full fit squad with everybody available, Lambert doesn't know what to do with the team. We look like a team that met for the first time 5 minutes before kick off. Last night's performance in the first half was shocking, as bad as I've seen in a very, very long time. We're not playing well and haven't for a few months and there are no signs of us improving, quite the opposite in fact.
We can rightly blame his signings that have been forced into the team when I'm sure he'd prefer to introduce them more slowly but like every other club, we can't guarantee that luxury. The point is, he works with them every day and one would imagine he tries to get them to play a certain way, what that way is I have no idea. We can blame the players but we both know the responsibility is his and to this day I still can't understand what he's trying to do.
My guess is he either has too much faith in his squad or too little. Which ever it is he's certainly not getting his message across at Bodymoor Heath. When we're good (if you can remember that far back) we're fine but anything less and we look like the most disjointed team around. We can hardly string three passes together unless you include playing the ball back to the keeper. Kick and rush sounds about right to me. Lambert and a few on here will defend it as fast counter attacking football. It isn't.
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Particularly given their first hoofball goal.
Hoofball does great service to Chris Brunt who played a fantastically timed ball to Shane Long who used great technique to control the ball in the air and finish.
Had it been Jonas Olsson supplying the pass, I would have agreed with you.
Oh I get it, our winner against ManCity was the same way. I just dont think WBA can be pointing fingers when it comes to "kick and rush" tactics.
Anyway, good game. I genuinely enjoyed it. My takeaway is both teams desperately need at least one defender back from injury.
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Well I have read most of this thread and I still can't quite get my head round it. We obviously started extremely badly, supplemented by a world class bit of skill and found ourselves 2-0. This time last year we could have shipped six. As it happens we spent fifteen minutes after the goal looking like that was exactly what would happen. But then you could visibly watch the team develop the determination to turn it around half way through, Clark was really noticeably trying to get the team going for a start, as was El Ahmadi. We actually grew into the game as the half wore on and it's absolute nonsense to say we could have been 5 down. I am pretty sure they only had four or five shots, and we had more including hitting the bar. Strangely, I actually think Kozak had his best game for us - his touch was much better and he looked more mobile. Tonev is unbelievably raw and slightly overawed at the moment but will be used sparingly and come good.
In the 2nd half, we started off the better team, increasing our foothold in the game and allowing us to throw the three subs on who injected a bit of hunger and pace into the team which at least forced the Albion deeper and allowed us to cross from better areas. Pace is still so important in English football and we had missed it. You might say it's not subtle but it's certainly not wrong either. We deserved our equaliser.
As for the criticism of Westwood, it just seems like a massive bandwagon to me. He definitely started the season off colour but he has got better and better. Only Vlaar played better than him last night for me and that was exactly the type of performance he put in over the back end of last season. He is essentially getting criticised for the same things he was praised for last year. It's bizarre.
Vlaar was excellent. Baker has his uses but struggles against particularly mobile forwards and whether he can work out a way of overcoming those limitations will define his career. Clark was good, El Ahmadi worked hard and had a better second half, Bacuna and Sylla both had very bad nights, Benteke still a threat and won some important headers in the 2nd half.
They aren't a bad side and like us have acquitted themselves well against some of the best teams in the league this season. We are both in a similar position, capable of beating anyone on our day but losing to anyone when it's not. It's clearly progress, I don't understand how anyone can think otherwise.
I agree that Kozak played well. He has shown an improvement in recent weeks which is down to hard work on the training ground.
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For half an hour in the second half Westwood bossed the game and anyone who can't see that is a damn fool I tells ya
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One thing about the Villa is that we do have an impressive selection of odious ex-managers to liken the present incumbent to whenever he pisses us off.
He can be the next O'Neill (anti footballing shitehook), O'Leary ( all round gobshite) or MCLeish (unadventurous, limited tit).
It's a first rate portfolio to choose from when you're 2-0 down at half time. We've been spoiled really.
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For half an hour in the second half Westwood bossed the game and anyone who can't see that is a damn fool I tells ya
I absolutely down with this.
I thought, like Mr Olof's Beard, that he played well throughout the game, and also that Kozak looked good, in fact I reckon he deserved to stay on instead of Benteke.
But having said that, taking Benteke off at that point would have probably given them a lift, and as it was their collective fear was probably enough to swing momentum straight back to us by itself.
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Can somebody tell me why we have to queue to get into that tinpot ground more than any other in the country? Why can't they handle a crowd? Every bloody time it takes an age to get in.
And the flare dog must find himself out of work this morning.
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One thing about the Villa is that we do have an impressive selection of odious ex-managers to liken the present incumbent to whenever he pisses us off.
He can be the next O'Neill (anti footballing shitehook), O'Leary ( all round gobshite) or MCLeish (unadventurous, limited tit).
It's a first rate portfolio to choose from when you're 2-0 down at half time. We've been spoiled really.
If he starts falling out with the players you've got Houllier (crass master)
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For half an hour in the second half Westwood bossed the game and anyone who can't see that is a damn fool I tells ya
I absolutely down with this.
I thought, like Mr Olof's Beard, that he played well throughout the game, and also that Kozak looked good, in fact I reckon he deserved to stay on instead of Benteke.
But having said that, taking Benteke off at that point would have probably given them a lift, and as it was their collective fear was probably enough to swing momentum straight back to us by itself.
Also agree. Even though he is bang out of form, my albion mate says he 'shit himself every time the ball came within 10 feet of Benteke'
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Can somebody tell me why we have to queue to get into that tinpot ground more than any other in the country? Why can't they handle a crowd? Every bloody time it takes an age to get in.
And the flare dog must find himself out of work this morning.
Stewarding is pathetic I agree.
I was touched up and stared down by one steward.
It was that bad my missus would have got jealous!
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At least they manage to segregate the fans fairly well after the game, something that never gets managed at the Sty.
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I was touched up and stared down by one steward.
Careful now there are people on here who will ask you for details of that steward!
By the way I love the floodlight pylons. Takes me back to the 80's when floodlight towers were a SATNAV to finding the grounds around the country.
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I too thought Westwood played well. He keeps the ball moving and generally retains possession. To be a more potent threat he needs to be able to play a first time pass with more confidence - his general modus operandi is to take one touch to control and one to pass.
Playing alongside KEA always worries me as neither is physically strong and they get physically overpowered, but in possession I rate Westwood.
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I too thought Westwood played well. He keeps the ball moving and generally retains possession. To be a more potent threat he needs to be able to play a first time pass with more confidence - his general modus operandi is to take one touch to control and one to pass.
Playing alongside KEA always worries me as neither is physically strong and they get physically overpowered, but in possession I rate Westwood.
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I hate to bring it up but I refer to the introduction of Van Nistlerooy with just 25 minutes left against us in the Cup all those horrible years ago. Ferguson had no intention of bringing him on because he was trying to preserve him for the league but when they went 2-0 down on he came. That was management genius - what Lambert did wasn't apparently.
Yes remember that. It was double subs with VNR and Keane coming on and whole atmosphere on and off the pitch changed. Last night to see 3 subs lined up to come on as early as the 55th minute sent a shudder around the ground. It was a signal that we mean business. I see that the whole media is mentioning the Lambert move and some last night were comparing him to AVB and his inert subs on Sunday.
It's always good to have game turning options from the bench, the best teams in the league have plenty of them, the mid table teams generally don't.
The problem for us is the 3 that came on will shortly be back in the starting line up as they're among the 11 best players at this club so either we hope the likes of Tonev and Kozak significantly improve to become game turners from the bench or I suspect Lambert will have to find some more in the transfer window.
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I went to watch Arsenal in the cup at WBA this season and thought it was fairly easy to get in and out of the away section (and Arsenal brought 5k that night). Certainly compared to Fulham which is a complete nightmare to exit from if you stay to the end (how does it pass the fire evacuation test?)
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And to Liam...why was your club trying to sell Shane Long to Hull in August? Simply a case of trying to balance your books?
I thought it was a strange decision at the time (particularly given Anelka really should just retire) and I think Steve Clarke got lucky as Anchiebe isn't as big a goal threat and Beharino looks promising but is still raw.
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My last post confused me! Should of been bigging him up. Tim Westwood as in the DJ.
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I hate to bring it up but I refer to the introduction of Van Nistlerooy with just 25 minutes left against us in the Cup all those horrible years ago. Ferguson had no intention of bringing him on because he was trying to preserve him for the league but when they went 2-0 down on he came. That was management genius - what Lambert did wasn't apparently.
Yes remember that. It was double subs with VNR and Keane coming on and whole atmosphere on and off the pitch changed. Last night to see 3 subs lined up to come on as early as the 55th minute sent a shudder around the ground. It was a signal that we mean business. I see that the whole media is mentioning the Lambert move and some last night were comparing him to AVB and his inert subs on Sunday.
It's always good to have game turning options from the bench, the best teams in the league have plenty of them, the mid table teams generally don't.
The problem for us is the 3 that came on will shortly be back in the starting line up as they're among the 11 best players at this club so either we hope the likes of Tonev and Kozak significantly improve to become game turners from the bench or I suspect Lambert will have to find some more in the transfer window.
That is my argument for keeping N'Zogbia. I think he can come on and change a game from the bench. I thought the ref had a good game. I commented just before kick off that after a rocky start to his career I rated him as one of the better refs now.
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I think having the option of bringing on one or all three of Bent, N'Zogbia and Tonev is quite good?
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We haven't had an " Oh shit, not him" player to come off the bench for years. Maybe Collymore was the last but on Monday night we had Gabby. It's all hyopothetical, but I wonder if he'd have had the same effect if he'd started.
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We haven't had an " Oh shit, not him" player to come off the bench for years. Maybe Collymore was the last but on Monday night we had Gabby. It's all hyopothetical, but I wonder if he'd have had the same effect if he'd started.
We've had loads Dave, it's just that it's usually us saying it.
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That's not an option we'll ever have, in my opinion.
Tonev does strike me as a decent option off the bench, though.
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We haven't had an " Oh shit, not him" player to come off the bench for years. Maybe Collymore was the last but on Monday night we had Gabby. It's all hyopothetical, but I wonder if he'd have had the same effect if he'd started.
One I always liked coming off the bench was Maloney in his brief time here. Pretty sure he won us a point or two in 07/08 as a superstar. Maybe Carew when he was benched aswell but yep more often than not our bench consists of underachieving players/just making the numbers up.
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In the paper tonight Lambert is quoted as saying about Westwood. 'He's a really clever footballer and he was outstanding.'
Westwood in my opinion is not 'a really clever footballer' not at all. He passes well over 20yards but does not create. He keeps possession well but not for most of this current season. And apart from last night does not offer a goal threat.
What in Gods sake is clever about him?
I think you have to stop trying to dissect what Plumbutt says about his players.
He never slags them off and when asked always finds something really good to say about them. That's the way he is and it won't change.
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In the paper tonight Lambert is quoted as saying about Westwood. 'He's a really clever footballer and he was outstanding.'
Westwood in my opinion is not 'a really clever footballer' not at all. He passes well over 20yards but does not create. He keeps possession well but not for most of this current season. And apart from last night does not offer a goal threat.
What in Gods sake is clever about him?
I think you have to stop trying to dissect what Plumbutt says about his players.
He never slags them off and when asked always finds something really good to say about them. That's the way he is and it won't change.
I think Westwood is a clever player in that he reads the game well, always makes him self available and is tactically aware. It's similar to when Petrov was doing that job, it looks simple and is often underrated but vital to the team.
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In the paper tonight Lambert is quoted as saying about Westwood. 'He's a really clever footballer and he was outstanding.'
Westwood in my opinion is not 'a really clever footballer' not at all. He passes well over 20yards but does not create. He keeps possession well but not for most of this current season. And apart from last night does not offer a goal threat.
What in Gods sake is clever about him?
You have to be clever yourself to see it ;)
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In the paper tonight Lambert is quoted as saying about Westwood. 'He's a really clever footballer and he was outstanding.'
Westwood in my opinion is not 'a really clever footballer' not at all. He passes well over 20yards but does not create. He keeps possession well but not for most of this current season. And apart from last night does not offer a goal threat.
What in Gods sake is clever about him?
I think you have to stop trying to dissect what Plumbutt says about his players.
He never slags them off and when asked always finds something really good to say about them. That's the way he is and it won't change.
Are you talking about yourself in the third person there? Like Bomber from Auf Wiedersehen Pet?
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Plumbutt says he isn't and he is referring to the nickname that absolutely no one else uses for the Aston Villa manager.
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I think Westwood is a very promising player. I thought he did very well for large stretches of last season.
He's had an iffy start to this season but let's not forget, until just over a year ago, he was playing for Crewe [moyes_must_go]IN STUPID LEAGUE 10 WITH LEEDS[/moyes_must_go]
He's not going to slot into the top flight and adapt immediately.
Whether we can afford to rely on too many players who are making this transition is a whole different question, but I am surprised how many people forget this when evaluating some of our players.
See also Lowton, Sylla, et al.
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Tim?
How can I help?
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My last post confused me! Should of been bigging him up. Tim Westwood as in the DJ.
Me and a Villa supporting mate love doing the Tim Westwood explosions for our Ashley W, and singing "and it's Friday yes it's Friday" in tribute to both!
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My last post confused me! Should of been bigging him up. Tim Westwood as in the DJ.
Me and a Villa supporting mate love doing the Tim Westwood explosions for our Ashley W, and singing "and it's Friday yes it's Friday" in tribute to both!
He certainly "dropped the bomb" on the bog-eyes on Monday
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How come that Berinho bod didn't play on Monday?
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do you mean the guy that did play on monday with ineffectual crossing (a la Aaron Lennon) and ineffectual running (A la Mcmanaman) into the corners?
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do you mean the guy that did play on monday with ineffectual crossing (a la Aaron Lennon) and ineffectual running (A la Mcmanaman) into the corners?
That wasn't Berahino.
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do you mean the guy that did play on monday with ineffectual crossing (a la Aaron Lennon) and ineffectual running (A la Mcmanaman) into the corners?
No, Saido Berahino, son of Burundi asylum seekers picked up by West Brom's academy when the family were living in Newtown.
He looks like a very, very good player and one we may have missed out on considering he was living so close to VP!
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Oh, and just in case we still have any Boggies watching the thread, Berahino still hasn't signed a new contract and tweeted during the game on Monday that it was "Time to be selfish".
He's coming to The Villa.
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Oh, and just in case we still have any Boggies watching the thread, Berahino still hasn't signed a new contract and tweeted during the game on Monday that it was "Time to be selfish".
He's coming to The Villa.
There was a picture of him with Ian Taylor on Twitter last week some time (it was something to do with Taylor's IT7 headphones I think) so you never know, hopefully Ian had a word in one's hear.
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We haven't had an " Oh shit, not him" player to come off the bench for years. Maybe Collymore was the last but on Monday night we had Gabby. It's all hyopothetical, but I wonder if he'd have had the same effect if he'd started.
I think Gabby had a significant impact. We as an away crowd really lifted and significantly, the Stripey Filth booed him on and began to sit a lot deeper as a consequence.
His contribution for the second goal is plain for all to see with his persistence.
If only Andi had slipped him through instead of taking a wild shot, he would have almost certainly have won us the game and then we could re-Christen the Smethwick End the Agbonlahor End as it is at Shite Andrews.
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Plumbutt says he isn't and he is referring to the nickname that absolutely no one else uses for the Aston Villa manager.
Now that I have said it in a Scots accent in my heid I get it. Never understood your new moniker before!
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Weimann , benteke and gabby is a potent strikeforce away from home to hit teams with, at home I'm not convinced - I would use bacuna wide right rather than Weimann , bit more creativity about him.
agree
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In fairness to Lambert, Gabby and Weimann have been crap recently when they did play. This is generally accepted by the vast majority of fans on here. Restoring the glorious front three from the end of last season hasn't worked at all recently.
But if the likes of Sylla, Tonev, Kozak, Helenius and KEA are the answer then the question obviously needs to be looked at again. Luna too has been poor when fit recently. Two players who haven't got any kind of look in are Herd and Bennett who deserve a go imo.
Delph comes back into the team no question. Bacuna has been one of our better players but chancing Lowton at right back and pushing Bacuna into midfield should certainly be considered for Sunderland. After that it's places up for grabs as far as I'm concerned. Maybe dropping Benteke to give him a much needed kick up the arse should be considered. The alternatives, Gabby and Weimann have only one league goal each thus far.
Problem that I see is that there is a lack of quality throughout our squad.
good post
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I'm not buying this Lambert is ok cos of the 3 subs.
It was a monumental fuck up on his part leaving those guys out + Lowton.
The guy is very very naive.
Don't you think he did well with the substitutions?
Regardless of you don't think he should have started with that line up, don't you reckon he did well to get us a point out of that? Given that we were two goals down after 11 minutes?
bloody Robbie Mustoe said exactly the three subs for the three players at HT to be changed , you didnt need to be no expert to make those changes .
Gary Neville made what I thought was a very interesting point about this. Lambert is managing confidence of very young, inexperienced players. Neville's view point was that he probably decided to give it 10-15 minutes so as to show respect to those that started the game and not destroy their confidence because he said on the occasions he had been hauled off at Half Time it had severely impacted the confidence of him and the dressing room.
I heard Lambert say they were tempted to leave the subs even longer ..
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We haven't had an " Oh shit, not him" player to come off the bench for years. Maybe Collymore was the last but on Monday night we had Gabby. It's all hyopothetical, but I wonder if he'd have had the same effect if he'd started.
We've had loads Dave, it's just that it's usually us saying it.
Very good Lee. Emile and Baros were a classic "oh shit" players!
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Oh, and just in case we still have any Boggies watching the thread, Berahino still hasn't signed a new contract and tweeted during the game on Monday that it was "Time to be selfish".
He's coming to The Villa.
There was a picture of him with Ian Taylor on Twitter last week some time (it was something to do with Taylor's IT7 headphones I think) so you never know, hopefully Ian had a word in one's hear.
Yes Berahino would be quite a coupe. By the way the great man was in the hospitality area where I ended up and was presented to the guests and answered a few questions. I managed to get his autograph (again) but this time on an Albion programme.
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We haven't had an " Oh shit, not him" player to come off the bench for years. Maybe Collymore was the last but on Monday night we had Gabby. It's all hyopothetical, but I wonder if he'd have had the same effect if he'd started.
We've had loads Dave, it's just that it's usually us saying it.
Very good Lee. Emile and Baros were a classic "oh shit" players!
Mark Kinsella anyone?
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I'm not buying this Lambert is ok cos of the 3 subs.
It was a monumental fuck up on his part leaving those guys out + Lowton.
The guy is very very naive.
Don't you think he did well with the substitutions?
Regardless of you don't think he should have started with that line up, don't you reckon he did well to get us a point out of that? Given that we were two goals down after 11 minutes?
bloody Robbie Mustoe said exactly the three subs for the three players at HT to be changed , you didnt need to be no expert to make those changes .
Gary Neville made what I thought was a very interesting point about this. Lambert is managing confidence of very young, inexperienced players. Neville's view point was that he probably decided to give it 10-15 minutes so as to show respect to those that started the game and not destroy their confidence because he said on the occasions he had been hauled off at Half Time it had severely impacted the confidence of him and the dressing room.
I heard Lambert say they were tempted to leave the subs even longer ..
He didn't though did he? That's what counts.
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Oh, and just in case we still have any Boggies watching the thread, Berahino still hasn't signed a new contract and tweeted during the game on Monday that it was "Time to be selfish".
He's coming to The Villa.
There was a picture of him with Ian Taylor on Twitter last week some time (it was something to do with Taylor's IT7 headphones I think) so you never know, hopefully Ian had a word in one's hear.
Yes Berahino would be quite a coupe. By the way the great man was in the hospitality area where I ended up and was presented to the guests and answered a few questions. I managed to get his autograph (again) but this time on an Albion programme.
He's close to signing a new contract with them which is a shame.