Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Trouserdog on April 21, 2013, 02:40:14 PM
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Which Villa players do you feel are...
1.Good enough to play for a Top 4 team?
2. Good enough to play for a Top 7 team?
3. Not good enough at all for the Premiership?
Quite interested to see how varied peoples opinions are on this.
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benteke top 4
Guzan and Bent could play for a everton for example
at this present time none of the rest could get in a top 7 team .
some not good for prem - KEA , Holman , BB , Ireland , Bowery , Dawkins , Fonz , Albrighton , eric, edna
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Top four squad - benteke, Guzan
Top 7 -benteke , Guzan ,bent, possibly Weimann and Westwood in a year.
Not good enough- bannan, kea, albrighton, Ireland, Holman , Fonz,
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Last I heard Bannan was stuck on level 4. He needs someone to get in the lift with him who is tall enough to reach the higher buttons.
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Top 4: Benteke and Guzan
Top 7: I think we've several players who would do well in a top 7 team. Weimann, Westwood and Baker to name 3. And, here's one to get you all going, Bannan. I think he'd flourish in a strong midfield.
With a couple of years experience I reckon you could add Lowton and Bennett too
Not good enough: Think it's a harsh one, as most mentioned are in their first season in the Prem and it's probably to early to judge.
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1. Good enough to play for a Top 4 team?
Guzan, Benteke
2. Good enough to play for a Top 7 team?
Vlaar, Ireland (on his day), Weimann, Delph, Westwood, Lowton, Bent, N'Zgobia, Agbonlahor
3. Not good enough at all for the Premiership?
Bennett, Stephens.
I think you've missed out a vital category which is 'good enough for mid table', as in 8th-14th. As there's plenty of players in our squad, such as Clark, Herd, Baker, Sylla, KEA, Albrighton, Holmann etc who I'd say aren't good enough for the top 7, yet it would be very harsh to say they're not good enough for the premier league.
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Bennett will be comfortably good enough.
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Bennett will be comfortably good enough.
Yes agreed.
When hell freezes over.
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Nope he will be.
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Bennett will be comfortably good enough.
Absolutely pwa , both our full backs have been good signings.
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Albrighton and Herd are no way good enough.
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I thought the thread was about the Championship <whistling emotion>
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Bennett will be comfortably good enough.
Absolutely pwa , both our full backs have been good signings.
Our fullbacks have been caught out left right and centre this season. You'd have to have a very vivid imagination to claim they've both been good signings.
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I'm not arguing Lowton or Bennett have been perfect but there's plenty of promise there. Lately Bennett's quality with his left foot has begun to show.
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Bennett will be comfortably good enough.
Absolutely pwa , both our full backs have been good signings.
Our fullbacks have been caught out left right and centre this season. You'd have to have a very vivid imagination to claim they've both been good signings.
They are young and will make mistakes - they are human!
Both have been good signings, Bennett now hes over his injuries is developing well, both provide good crossing ability and their defensive game will improve with experience.
Their fees have been much better value than warnock and Hutton .
The only signing of lamberts who has disappointed me is kea.
Holman was mcleishs signing and has been poor , bowery and sylla have shown promise for the small fee paid .
Vlaar has been ok but not great and Westwood and benteke excellent deals.
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I'm not arguing Lowton or Bennett have been perfect but there's plenty of promise there. Lately Bennett's quality with his left foot has begun to show.
He's decent enough going forward but he's a bleedin' awful defender. And as that's the position he was bought to fill, you can't describe him as a success. The whole defence has been awful all season.
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I haven't though Risso, I said he will make it. Bennett's defending has improved lately as well.
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1. Good enough to play for a Top 4 team?
Guzan, Benteke
2. Good enough to play for a Top 7 team?
Vlaar, Ireland (on his day), Weimann, Delph, Westwood, Lowton, Bent, N'Zgobia, Agbonlahor
3. Not good enough at all for the Premiership?
Bennett, Stephens.
I think you've missed out a vital category which is 'good enough for mid table', as in 8th-14th. As there's plenty of players in our squad, such as Clark, Herd, Baker, Sylla, KEA, Albrighton, Holmann etc who I'd say aren't good enough for the top 7, yet it would be very harsh to say they're not good enough for the premier league.
Well, it's sort of implicit that if you haven't listed them in any of the other three, then that's the category they'll be in. I was just saving everyone a bit of time! :)
I'm not actually a Villa fan but I think you might be overestimating the ability of a few players there...if you had that many players capable of playing for say, Liverpool or Everton, you'd surely be about 20 points better off by now! Stephen Ireland...deary me. Where did it all go wrong...
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If you're not actually a Villa fan don't come on here slagging our players.
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Stephen Ireland...deary me. Where did it all go wrong...
I think this is a Kop out & i'm Tilton towards this poster being without Merrick in the Main.
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Stephen Ireland...deary me. Where did it all go wrong...
I think this is a Kop out & i'm Tilton towards this poster being without Merrick in the Main.
You missed out the Agbonlahor End.
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Does the OP mean which players have the potential for top 4/7 clubs or which players are currently good enough to play for them? If it is the latter, then you have to agree with Trouserdog's last comment to an extent as we don't currently have many players good enough for such teams. This is why we are where we are in the table. The table doesn't lie at this stage of the season. We are a poor side but we have potential to evolve into a decent one.
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If you're not actually a Villa fan don't come on here slagging our players.
First time posters opening a topic in their first post is bad netiquette and often an opportunity for the opportunist troll. Many message boards do not allow it.
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I'm not actually a Villa fan but I think you might be overestimating the ability of a few players there...if you had that many players capable of playing for say, Liverpool or Everton, you'd surely be about 20 points better off by now!
Let's put it this way - we'd probably take both of your centre-halves. But based on their dreadful performance against us a couple of weeks ago we wouldn't want any more of your thuggish rugby players.
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Does the OP mean which players have the potential for top 4/7 clubs or which players are currently good enough to play for them? If it is the latter, then you have to agree with Trouserdog's last comment to an extent as we don't currently have many players good enough for such teams. This is why we are where we are in the table. The table doesn't lie at this stage of the season. We are a poor side but we have potential to evolve into a decent one.
This sums it up nicely for me.
The tale of our season has been that of a slow start, but then gradual improvement. We then got to Chelsea away and that battering knocked their confidence, which took a long time to return. Newcastle at home 2nd half seemed to be the turning point, and since then we've shown easily mid table form. So, over the 33 games we've played, not good enough, with signs pointing to improvement.
Individual players can be argued about and one or two will undoubtedly prove not good enough, but some will go on and make a great career for themselves.
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I'm not actually a Villa fan but I think you might be overestimating the ability of a few players there...if you had that many players capable of playing for say, Liverpool or Everton, you'd surely be about 20 points better off by now! Stephen Ireland...deary me. Where did it all go wrong...
Huth and Shawcross good enough for top 4 teams, really?
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I'm not arguing Lowton or Bennett have been perfect but there's plenty of promise there. Lately Bennett's quality with his left foot has begun to show.
He's decent enough going forward but he's a bleedin' awful defender. And as that's the position he was bought to fill, you can't describe him as a success. The whole defence has been awful all season.
I'll admit, I haven't seen much from Bennett to encourage me, but with the defence, you have to remember that, for much of the season, too many kids have been thrown in together at the same time.
Lowton, Baker, Bennett should really be getting introduced into a defence with some older, wiser heads there. They haven't though, they've been thrown into a level they've never played at before, week in, week out. Lowton has played every minute of every game, for example.
You are asking a lot (and I think this is the club's fuck up here) for them all to prove their worth at the same time, which is why it is difficult to judge.
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1.Good enough to play for a Top 4 team?
Guzan, Benteke, Weimann
2. Good enough to play for a Top 7 team?
Vlaar, Lowton, Westwood ,N'Zogbia, Delph
3. Not good enough at all for the Premiership?
Ireland, Bennett, Stephens, Herd, Bowery,
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Yep. Would Bennett have had a better season with an experienced CB inside him, like Dunne? I think so.
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1.Good enough to play for a Top 4 team?
Guzan, Benteke, Weimann
2. Good enough to play for a Top 7 team?
Vlaar, Lowton, Westwood ,N'Zogbia, Delph
3. Not good enough at all for the Premiership?
Ireland, Bennett, Stephens, Herd, Bowery,
Swap nzogbia for agbonlahor and remove Bennett and Bowery from the bottom list and I agree with this (oh and add Hutton to the not good enough list). I personally think we've got a lot of youngsters capable of making it at a top 7 side but we have 2 problems.
1: Too many of them are learning to play at this level at the same time.
2: The senior players around them are in the midtable or not good enough category, or aren't fit.
It's telling that the results have gradually improved as the season has gone on, which shjows that the experience is starting to make a difference;
first 11 games points per game (PPG) = 0.82
next 11 = 0.91
last 11 = 1.36
Extend the form from the start over the season and we'd be pretty much down by now = 27 points
Extend the form from the last 11 over the season and we'd be comfortably top half = 45 points
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I'm surprised some people haven't noticed the recent clear improvement in Bennett.
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I'm surprised some people haven't noticed the recent clear improvement in Bennett.
I'm not.
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Albrighton and Herd are no way good enough.
Neither is your eyesight. ;)
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Albrighton and Herd are no way good enough.
Neither is your eyesight. ;)
Herd looked comfortably good enough for the Premiership last season - and has been injured for a fair chunk of this. So, the jury has to stay out.
Bowery and Bennett - jury also still out, for me.
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Albrighton and Herd are no way good enough.
Neither is your eyesight. ;)
Ha ha our constant battle.
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If you're not actually a Villa fan don't come on here slagging our players.
First time posters opening a topic in their first post is bad netiquette and often an opportunity for the opportunist troll. Many message boards do not allow it.
I'm not slagging anybody off and I'm not interested in trolling - there's quite clearly a fair bit of reasonable discussion being prompted by the post, so does it matter how many posts someone has got to their name?
Thanks for the responses though, i like to keep abreast of what's going on with the various Premiership squads (for future betting purposes) and some of the current Villa players I haven't watched as many times as others. Apologies if it seemed like I was having a dig- that wasn't the intention.
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I'm not actually a Villa fan but I think you might be overestimating the ability of a few players there...if you had that many players capable of playing for say, Liverpool or Everton, you'd surely be about 20 points better off by now! Stephen Ireland...deary me. Where did it all go wrong...
Huth and Shawcross good enough for top 4 teams, really?
I tried not to respond to this but couldn't resist.. :-X
Arguably top 4, probably top 7 though if I take my Stoke-tinted glasses off. The other good players we have are Begovic (who really is a fantastic keeper- top 4 without question) and N'Zonzi. The others are fair-to-average, which is why we are where we are in the league. As well as the manager's tactics, perhaps...but that's another story...
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If you're not actually a Villa fan don't come on here slagging our players.
First time posters opening a topic in their first post is bad netiquette and often an opportunity for the opportunist troll. Many message boards do not allow it.
I'm not slagging anybody off and I'm not interested in trolling - there's quite clearly a fair bit of reasonable discussion being prompted by the post, so does it matter how many posts someone has got to their name?
Thanks for the responses though, i like to keep abreast of what's going on with the various Premiership squads (for future betting purposes) and some of the current Villa players I haven't watched as many times as others. Apologies if it seemed like I was having a dig- that wasn't the intention.
Quite strange to have a pop at our players then when our front 3 tore you a new one only two weeks ago. For what it's worth, Begovic does look top draw, Shawcross is top 7 and Huth is a mediocre thug.
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Albrighton and Herd are no way good enough.
Neither is your eyesight. ;)
Herd looked comfortably good enough for the Premiership last season - and has been injured for a fair chunk of this. So, the jury has to stay out.
Bowery and Bennett - jury also still out, for me.
I don't feel Herd is good enough. He's a runner and covers a lot of groud. You can't fault his effort. But his passing range is shocking, he can't keep up with tempo of the Premier League. And fails to keep shape. He's a 2nd Division player for me.
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Herd has been used this season as a CB, which he's not good at, IMO. Under TSM, he looked decent in central midfield. However, I'd say no more so than Westwood, Delph or Sylla. And he's certainly not the 'general' we need in there, so not sure where he'd fit in. If he's happy to stay as a utility player on relatively low wages, then great, but otherwise shoud move on for 1st team football.
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Herd has been used this season as a CB, which he's not good at, IMO. Under TSM, he looked decent in central midfield. However, I'd say no more so than Westwood, Delph or Sylla. And he's certainly not the 'general' we need in there, so not sure where he'd fit in. If he's happy to stay as a utility player on relatively low wages, then great, but otherwise shoud move on for 1st team football.
Herd looked ok in a midfield where the primary requirement was to protect the back 4 and keep the opposition out. In that system I think he can be a good 'terrier' in the middle. In a possession based game I don't think he's got the quality on the ball to play there. I do think he could be a good option as a full back though, if we need someone to sit a bit deeper and keep us solid.
If he's happy to stay as squad cover he's worth keeping as he is a decent squad player and will do a job when asked to, as with others, he's no near enough to the top of the list to replace to worry about it too much. If we got some decent offers I'd let him go but I wouldn't be out looking for offers.
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At right back Herd looked really good.
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Herd was probably one of our best players last season (probably because TSM liked his battling qualities), and he did score a couple of good goals.
I just can't see him either fitting into Lambert's system or helping us progress to the next level.
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Herd was useful in a really poor footballing side, unfortunately he'll never be good enough in the midfield in a side trying to play good football.
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Herd was useful in a really poor footballing side, unfortunately he'll never be good enough in the midfield in a side trying to play good football.
I would retain herd for his versatility and he could be a useful squad player - he has played right back, central defence and midfield and always gives his best.
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Way I see it is if we ever stop battling relegation year in year out and have a crack at the top 6 again then I'd say only 4-5 of our current squad would be good enough to be regulars in our first 11.
Guzan in goal, Benteke are certs and you could make good cases for Weimann and Gabby being squad players at the very least.
Of the others, I actually think with the right midfield partner alongside him Westwood is going to be a top central midfield. Same for Lowton with more experience of the league and better quality alongside him in defence.
I'd be amazed if Bennett ever develops into a top quality left back like Baines, he may have a chance as a left sided midfield as he can cross the ball.
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1.Good enough to play for a Top 4 team?
Guzan, Benteke, Weimann
2. Good enough to play for a Top 7 team?
Vlaar, Lowton, Westwood ,N'Zogbia, Delph
3. Not good enough at all for the Premiership?
Ireland, Bennett, Stephens, Herd, Bowery,
Weimann is more in the second category.
Nzogbia cant make a regular place in our bottom 5 side so not sure how we is good enough to "step up". Delph and Westwood have come on a lot this season so are on the verge of holding their own I would suggest. Vlaar, not likely. If we go down there wont be any top 10 sides going for him I reckon. Lowton cant defend to save himself and is possibly the worst defender in the squad (quite the statement). Tidy on the ball but incredibly poor defensively and has been at fault for a host of goals this season.
Good enough: Guzan, Benteke and at a stretch Weimann, Westwood, Gabby and Delph (we are forgetting how poor Gabby and Delph have been for most of the season).
Maybe: Bent, Nzogbia, Given, Vlaar
Squad players/worth persevering with: Lowton, Bennett, Baker or Clark (one of them should go), Gardner, Sylla
Get rid/not good enough: Lichaj, Dunne, Stevens, Holman, Kea, Bannan, Albrighton, Delfouneso, Bowery, Ireland, Hutton
The first 3 in the maybe category are on big wages and competing for positions in which we are strong already. We probably need to move the 3 of them on in the summer if possible and there wouldnt be too many tears shed if Vlaar joined them to be honest.
Most of our first team squad arent good enough for surviving in the EPL not to mention thriving in it. This is the main reason we have been fighting the drop for 3 years.
Even if we stay up, Lambert has a huge job on his hands to improve that squad.
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I think we can do better for cheaper than CNZ.
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None of the defence are even close to being good enough. Two young full backs who can't defend and two centre backs who are a shambles.
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Vlaar is certainly pretty poor in my opinion. For a bloke of his frame, he is remarkably lightweight.
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Vlaar is certainly pretty poor in my opinion. For a bloke of his frame, he is remarkably lightweight.
Watching his bemused face as the ball rattled in for their third was like watching a cat trying to keep track of a ping pong ball. As our captain and oldest defender he really does set a terrible example with his poor play.
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None of the defence are even close to being good enough. Two young full backs who can't defend and two centre backs who are a shambles.
Bennett's been a bit hit and miss but Lowton has been good considering he's had to play every game. I can't think of too many times i've come away from a match thinking he's had a bad game.
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Vlaar hasn't been as good as we've needed, seeing as he's had basically a youth team around him, but he's decent. We paid £3.75m for an established 27 year old international at a CL club. He was hardly an unknown quantity and as such is more of a 'you get what you pay for' player than some hidden gem.
Our problem is that collectively the defence look so poor. A new CB is undoubtedly needed, so he needs to be an organiser and/or we should look at the defensive coaching situation.
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Vlaar hasn't been as good as we've needed, seeing as he's had basically a youth team around him, but he's decent. We paid £3.75m for an established 27 year old international at a CL club. He was hardly an unknown quantity and as such is more of a 'you get what you pay for' player than some hidden gem.
Our problem is that collectively the defence look so poor. A new CB is undoubtedly needed, so he needs to be an organiser and/or we should look at the defensive coaching situation.
I decided last night (and backed it up watching footage from other matches) that our biggest issue is that we defend far too high up the pitch for the defenders we have.
They're not experienced enough to play the arsenal style offside trap and they're not quick enough to get back at their man if he runs into space. 10yards deeper last night and they'd have had a lot less joy with the long passes in behind us. We've had 5-6 teams exploit that space to great effect agianst us in the last few months.
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Vlaar hasn't been as good as we've needed, seeing as he's had basically a youth team around him, but he's decent. We paid £3.75m for an established 27 year old international at a CL club. He was hardly an unknown quantity and as such is more of a 'you get what you pay for' player than some hidden gem.
Our problem is that collectively the defence look so poor. A new CB is undoubtedly needed, so he needs to be an organiser and/or we should look at the defensive coaching situation.
I decided last night (and backed it up watching footage from other matches) that our biggest issue is that we defend far too high up the pitch for the defenders we have.
They're not experienced enough to play the arsenal style offside trap and they're not quick enough to get back at their man if he runs into space. 10yards deeper last night and they'd have had a lot less joy with the long passes in behind us. We've had 5-6 teams exploit that space to great effect agianst us in the last few months.
Fair comment.
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And the other thing is we still try and play like Cruyff at the back when the far more sensible option is to hoof it into row z - that is annoying at times.
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Guzan, Gabby, Weimann, Benteke, Bent and perhaps N'zogbia when he can be bothered. The rest aren't good enough for the PL, and that's why we're in this mess. Our defence stats speaks for itself.
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Our defensive line is too high, that's clear. Saunders' I find it hard to understand how you can think that Westwood isn't good enough for the Premier League, he's been good this year in his first year at this level.
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Our defensive line is too high, that's clear. Saunders' I find it hard to understand how you can think that Westwood isn't good enough for the Premier League, he's been good this year in his first year at this level.
He's never stood out in any game for me. I don't see why so many fans on here have him down as being so special. The only young player who has done anything of note this season is Weimann, and even he has been poor for the last month or two. I've said it before, for me this is the worst Villa team I've ever seen, and most of the players aren't fit to wear a Villa shirt, Westwood included.
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Well we'll have to disagree on that, but fair enough. I do agree that on the defensive of things we've been atrocious and that must be addressed regardless of what happens at the end of the season. However we look quite good going forward, and I think Delph and Westwood have helped in that regard.
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The biggest problem with the defence this season is that we've had 6 defenders who appeared regularly, who, before the start of the season, had about 50 premier league appearances between them.
We simply needed Dunne to get fit but he seemingly is broken as a footballer and will probably never play at a high level again. To have broken down so many times in a year is hugely worrying. I don't particularly like Dunne, I think his concentration and fitness are very poor for an international defender but he does bring some stability to proceedings that has been sorely missed.
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Frankly our celtic connection of Given, Dunne, Hutton and Ireland have offered absolutely nothing of us.
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Our defensive line is too high, that's clear. Saunders' I find it hard to understand how you can think that Westwood isn't good enough for the Premier League, he's been good this year in his first year at this level.
He's never stood out in any game for me. I don't see why so many fans on here have him down as being so special. The only young player who has done anything of note this season is Weimann, and even he has been poor for the last month or two. I've said it before, for me this is the worst Villa team I've ever seen, and most of the players aren't fit to wear a Villa shirt, Westwood included.
I fully agree with you S-H. I have come away from pretty well every game wondering how much longer Lambert can keep playing Westwood. He offers very little constructively and for me (and I know I will get heavy gunfire for this) Bannan contributes more overall when you excuse his sometimes wayward passing borne out I believe by trying too hard. Westwood's 'completion' figures are mainly from get rid of the ball ASAP. I think we have a situation rather like under MON where he plays players he bought no matter how bad they are so he regularly praises them to try to kid us they are good. We have had to put up with 'promising' League 1 and 2 players while international players have been sidelined.
Another problem is Lambert will not play with wingers so his fullbacks have to play wingback and strikers like Gabby and Weimann have to play wide.
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Frankly our celtic connection of Given, Dunne, Hutton and Ireland have offered absolutely nothing of us.
True. You can't blame them for this season's debacle though.
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Our defensive line is too high, that's clear. Saunders' I find it hard to understand how you can think that Westwood isn't good enough for the Premier League, he's been good this year in his first year at this level.
He's never stood out in any game for me. I don't see why so many fans on here have him down as being so special. The only young player who has done anything of note this season is Weimann, and even he has been poor for the last month or two. I've said it before, for me this is the worst Villa team I've ever seen, and most of the players aren't fit to wear a Villa shirt, Westwood included.
I fully agree with you S-H. I have come away from pretty well every game wondering how much longer Lambert can keep playing Westwood. He offers very little constructively and for me (and I know I will get heavy gunfire for this) Bannan contributes more overall when you excuse his sometimes wayward passing borne out I believe by trying too hard. Westwood's 'completion' figures are mainly from get rid of the ball ASAP. I think we have a situation rather like under MON where he plays players he bought no matter how bad they are so he regularly praises them to try to kid us they are good. We have had to put up with 'promising' League 1 and 2 players while international players have been sidelined.
Another problem is Lambert will not play with wingers so his fullbacks have to play wingback and strikers like Gabby and Weimann have to play wide.
The thing is, this is exactly what many people were saying about Petrov (and have also said about players like Carrick).
These are the players that do loads of unheralded work - interceptions, re-cycling the ball, maintaining the momentum, covering for attacking colleagues, making the dummy runs.
Not glamorous but often critical.
Westwood will get better and better, I think.
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Our defensive line is too high, that's clear. Saunders' I find it hard to understand how you can think that Westwood isn't good enough for the Premier League, he's been good this year in his first year at this level.
He's never stood out in any game for me. I don't see why so many fans on here have him down as being so special. The only young player who has done anything of note this season is Weimann, and even he has been poor for the last month or two. I've said it before, for me this is the worst Villa team I've ever seen, and most of the players aren't fit to wear a Villa shirt, Westwood included.
I fully agree with you S-H. I have come away from pretty well every game wondering how much longer Lambert can keep playing Westwood. He offers very little constructively and for me (and I know I will get heavy gunfire for this) Bannan contributes more overall when you excuse his sometimes wayward passing borne out I believe by trying too hard. Westwood's 'completion' figures are mainly from get rid of the ball ASAP. I think we have a situation rather like under MON where he plays players he bought no matter how bad they are so he regularly praises them to try to kid us they are good. We have had to put up with 'promising' League 1 and 2 players while international players have been sidelined.
Another problem is Lambert will not play with wingers so his fullbacks have to play wingback and strikers like Gabby and Weimann have to play wide.
The thing is, this is exactly what many people were saying about Petrov (and have also said about players like Carrick).
These are the players that do loads of unheralded work - interceptions, re-cycling the ball, maintaining the momentum, covering for attacking colleagues, making the dummy runs.
Not glamorous but often critical.
Westwood will get better and better, I think.
Westwood isn't and never will be fit to lace the boots of Petrov.
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Westwood will go on to become a very good premiership player with a top 4 club in time - hopefully it will be with us and he will be here for a few years.
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Westwood has a pass completion rate of almost 85% over the season.
If you can't see how that contributes, then there's no hope for you.
Obviously, if you've decided that everything is shit, then there's no persuading you.
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Westwood has a pass completion rate of almost 85% over the season.
If you can't see how that contributes, then there's no hope for you.
Obviously, if you've decided that everything is shit, then there's no persuading you.
Look don't throw stats at me. They can be manipulated to make the average of players look good. Bannan's pass completion etc stats look good, but most of those passes are sideways and backwards or in his own half where they hurt no one. The same applies to Westwood in my opinion.
Not good enough for Aston Villa. That's why we've been relegation fodder all season.
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Westwood has a pass completion rate of almost 85% over the season.
If you can't see how that contributes, then there's no hope for you.
Obviously, if you've decided that everything is shit, then there's no persuading you.
Look don't throw stats at me. They can be manipulated to make the average of players look good. Bannan's pass completion etc stats look good, but most of those passes are sideways and backwards or in his own half where they hurt no one. The same applies to Westwood in my opinion.
Not good enough for Aston Villa. That's why we've been relegation fodder all season.
As I said, most of Westwood's passes are short 'get rid of it quick' balls. I truly hope he does become a great player but we need that now.
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Westwood has a pass completion rate of almost 85% over the season.
If you can't see how that contributes, then there's no hope for you.
Obviously, if you've decided that everything is shit, then there's no persuading you.
Look don't throw stats at me. They can be manipulated to make the average of players look good. Bannan's pass completion etc stats look good, but most of those passes are sideways and backwards or in his own half where they hurt no one. The same applies to Westwood in my opinion.
Not good enough for Aston Villa. That's why we've been relegation fodder all season.
Westwood's pass completion rates are good, and he actually looks like a good passer of the ball in the flesh, so it isn't just stats.
Our problem is not that all the young players are rubbish. They clearly are not rubbish. Some of them look very good. Some less so.
The problem is that way, way too often, they've all been thrown in at the same time rather than slowly introduced. Over the course of the season they've also had to handle some truly horrific results, and a near total lack of experienced heads to turn to in the changing rooms when looking for leadership.
Some of those young players aren't good enough, some of them might be, and some of them clearly are. The problem is that they've spent most of this season getting utterly crucified on the pitch, so it is very hard to judge them.
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Westwood has a pass completion rate of almost 85% over the season.
If you can't see how that contributes, then there's no hope for you.
Obviously, if you've decided that everything is shit, then there's no persuading you.
Look don't throw stats at me. They can be manipulated to make the average of players look good. Bannan's pass completion etc stats look good, but most of those passes are sideways and backwards or in his own half where they hurt no one. The same applies to Westwood in my opinion.
Not good enough for Aston Villa. That's why we've been relegation fodder all season.
As I said, most of Westwood's passes are short 'get rid of it quick' balls. I truly hope he does become a great player but we need that now.
While he doesn;t play too many defence splitters, that's simply not true.
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The biggest problem with the defence this season is that we've had 6 defenders who appeared regularly, who, before the start of the season, had about 50 premier league appearances between them.
We simply needed Dunne to get fit but he seemingly is broken as a footballer and will probably never play at a high level again. To have broken down so many times in a year is hugely worrying. I don't particularly like Dunne, I think his concentration and fitness are very poor for an international defender but he does bring some stability to proceedings that has been sorely missed.
I am sure I remember us starting one match and our most experienced PL player in the starting XI was Barry Bannan, with 50 odd appearances.
If you play a side that inexperienced for any length of time in the top flight, you are going to struggle.
I agree on Dunne, too. He is a terrible pro in many ways, constantly fat and out of shape, and prone to clangers and own goals, but he's at least been round the block a few times. We've had matches with Baker and Clark in the middle, and either one of those alongside a more experienced player would have been significantly better than pairing both of them together.
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As usual, Paulie has it spot on and I just cannot understand anyone who thinks Westwood hasn't done well this season. It's clear he has quality in the middle. He's no world beater yet but if he improves as he should he'll be a very good player.
I'm still holding out a fair amount of hope for Vlaar and KEA. Definite similarities with Stan (who was poor for a long time) and who has been our stand out player in the last few years. Looking back it's surprising we stuck with him for so long but obviously delighted we did!
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Frankly our celtic connection of Given, Dunne, Hutton and Ireland have offered absolutely nothing of us.
True. You can't blame them for this season's debacle though.
On the contrary, I think Ireland has to shoulder some of the blame. He could have been an integral part of the side this season, but he just couldn't be bothered. If (and it is a big if) Dunne hasn't really made an effort to get himself fit then he is another one who has cost us in his absence.
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I don't think you just judge a midfielder on the amount of successful passes they make. Westwood has been a bit of a 'meh' player most of the time. I think he needs to contribute more really. Doesn't protect the defence at all and never looks like scoring. He has shown some promise at times though (Arsenal at home his best performance IMO), so he will most likely improve next season and playing in a better midfield. But I don't think he has warranted some of the exaggerated praise that he gets.
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I don't think you just judge a midfielder on the amount of successful passes they make. Westwood has been a bit of a 'meh' player most of the time. I think he needs to contribute more really. Doesn't protect the defence at all and never looks like scoring. He has shown some promise at times though (Arsenal at home his best performance IMO), so he will most likely improve next season and playing in a better midfield. But I don't think he has warranted some of the exaggerated praise that he gets.
Agreed. Most overrated Villa player in years.
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Westwood should be the guy who sets the tempo in our midfield, and he'd do a good job of it. But he needs someone with a spark of genius in front of him and a workhorse alongside him. Delph has shown he can fill the 2nd requirement, now we need someone to join them and make things happen (out of interest Sylla covered for Delph really well and Bannan fitted nicely as well as the one more willing to look forward and try to make things happen).
On top of that the trio in there needs to provide 10-15 goals, if they all come form 1 player then so be it but our midfield and defence need to contribute in the for column.
Westwood's role, in a 3, is always going to be the one that divides opinion, some see it as a crab who slows play down, others see it as the guy who directs where we attack from.
For me he's been ok and is certainly good enough to be a premier league midfielder but the balance of the side (in an attacking sense, I've already explained my opinion on the defence) hasn't been quite right all season, we don't have anyone who has played in the attacking role of the 3 and has really made it their own.
I think a few people on here are a bit deluded in expecting more from a guy who is in his first season in the premier league, the same can be said of a fair few players who have been called shit on here this year. The setup of the premier league has made everything about instant success which leads to snap judgements of shit or good being made far too early.
Our matchday squad this season has been massively inexperienced and has contained a lot of players who didn't know each other. Any club with the level of personnel and tactical 'churn' that we've had in the last couple of years would've struggled, add to that the big money players just not turning up often enough, for a number of reasons, and we've had a rough time of it.
As Paulie said as a team we've not had the experience to cope which makes it very difficult to judge a lot of the players. Guzan, Benteke and, to an extent, Weimann have prospered despite the problems, but it doesn't mean everyone else who's played is shit and should be sold if we want to achieve anything. It means we need to get through this year and take stock and then what we can add to give the players we have a fairer chance to show if they can make it. If they're still not good enough by christmas then you can look at getting replacements for a few but for me stability is the key to this summer.
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I think a few people on here are a bit deluded in expecting more from a guy who is in his first season in the premier league
Not sure that it is deluded to expect him to at least look like scoring once in a while or do more to protect the defence.
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For me Westy is our Carrick. He's a connective player. I don't think he'll protect the defence too much nor score 5-10 a season.
However what he will be, is an ideal 1 of a midfield 3. Again, this has been a system problem for us. We've not got enough in the centre of our midfield.
A good deeper midfielder to aid the defence, and a good attacking mid with Westy is what's needed. I think he's done remarkebly well this season for us. He's stepped up to this level very well and not looked out of place. He's very composed on the ball and clever with his use of it. For me his job is to connect our defensive players with our attacking ones.
It's been our creative midfielders who've not done enough IMO. Tekkers is joint top for assists this season and top scorer by a long way. Holman is an attacking mid and hasn't offered much. Zoggy is too inconsistent. Gabby and Wiemann have scored from wide positions effectively, but they're not killer pass type of players. Bannan should be able to provide killer balls but doesn't do so consistently enough.
Westwood is good enough in the role he provides. He's there to keep things ticking along, keep the ball moving and he does that. Our creative failures are ahead of him.
That said, his set pieces need to improve. And yes, even Carrick has the capability of spanking in the odd 20 yarder. So Westwood will need to add at least the odd goal to his game.
As well as Delph has played, I'm not sure he's a long term starter. We need a more creative force in his place or someone more efficient in the defensive side, a bit less reckless. We'll see, but ideally I'd like to see a midfield 3 next season, and 2 of them, new signings.
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Overrated? Westwood? Do me a favour. Absolutely our most consistently good player. Best value for money signing I have seen in six years. Good number of assists. Doesnt lose the ball. Doesnt pass to people under pressure. Maybe he doesnt come in with many goals, but is that why carrick is Uniteds best player this year? He has some of the best bits that Petrov showed for us three-five years ago, but doesnt fade at 70 mins.
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Overrated? Westwood? Do me a favour. Absolutely our most consistently good player. Best value for money signing I have seen in six years. Good number of assists. Doesnt lose the ball. Doesnt pass to people under pressure. Maybe he doesnt come in with many goals, but is that why carrick is Uniteds best player this year? He has some of the best bits that Petrov showed for us three-five years ago, but doesnt fade at 70 mins.
Agreed, a very good signing indeed!
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Westwood will be at ManUre within 3 years.....mark my words...
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Overrated? Westwood? Do me a favour. Absolutely our most consistently good player. Best value for money signing I have seen in six years. Good number of assists. Doesnt lose the ball. Doesnt pass to people under pressure. Maybe he doesnt come in with many goals, but is that why carrick is Uniteds best player this year? He has some of the best bits that Petrov showed for us three-five years ago, but doesnt fade at 70 mins.
the goals will come with experience
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Westwood will be at ManUre within 3 years.....mark my words...
Or man city :(
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He has some of the best bits that Petrov showed for us three-five years ago, but doesnt fade at 70 mins.
I only thought Petrov started looking decent towards the end of the Houllier season. Never rated him before then.
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He has some of the best bits that Petrov showed for us three-five years ago, but doesnt fade at 70 mins.
I only thought Petrov started looking decent towards the end of the Houllier season. Never rated him before then.
Fair comment , during mons reign he never really produced his best on a regular basis and probably his best performance under mon was his debut down at west ham.
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Westwood is playing his first season at this level and has done very well and he'll be a very good player.
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Westwood is playing his first season at this level and has done very well and he'll be a very good player.
It's that simple.
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We've seen in recent weeks that the first choice XI isn't too bad. The squad's our problem - take 1 or 2 players out and there's shit coming in to replace them. It's no surprise that the time we were awful coincided with the time where there was a game every 2 or 3 days. Get rid of the hangers on and bring in quality to replace them. Make sure we have 18 capable players.
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Westwood will improve, I am sure, but has been an excellent buy IMHO. Must say I thought he needed to be in their faces a bit more the other night at Man Ure, will come with experience.
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This debate means which Villa players will get linked and subsequently sold to other premier league teams. If they are good enough for this proposed next level that means challenging for Europa places and champions league places. The top level is playing at title chasing teams, in champions league, and for English players representing England. Benteke therefor is the outfield player who is good enough for next level. Bent is good enough for Europa league teams. The GK Guzan and Given and also top quality. All the young players are still in development.
But ones who are currently really lacking are Bennett, Stevens, Lichaj, Bowery, Bannan and Albrighton. All these players lack either technique, confidence or physical attributes to be top players for top teams. With this they lack consistency in continued quality and this will ultimately see them basic players no stars amongst them
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Weimann is good enough for next level now I would suggest, the likes of Liverpool and Newcastle seem to be interested. Given wont get a top team, wont get any team with his wages I suspect. Guzan maybe
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Weimann is good enough for next level now I would suggest, the likes of Liverpool and Newcastle seem to be interested. Given wont get a top team, wont get any team with his wages I suspect. Guzan maybe
have to challenge such claims as I dont think weimann would be starting ahead of suarez or papa cisse or figure as a first choice of either of these teams. One more season (remember this is his first season) makes sense
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Personally, I'm waiting for Wigan to drop out of sight tomorrow and for the Villa to rise up the table next season to the point where other teams' players will be queueing up to be considered for transfer to contribute to our run on the Champs League! :)
And the only player who could have been, should have been, but isn't good enough for that is Steven Ireland. Major disappointment at this point.
Given and Dunne will find their own way through to the next stages of their careers and I do not begrudge either of them, but what Ireland could have done for this team this season if he was half the player he was supposed to be will rankle with me for quite some time. No idea what his problem is but then, like most of us I have heard absolutely nothing. It seems we have had a complete freeloader and he will be very hard to shift. The next level for him should be coffee monitor in the job club in my local library.
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Ireland has talent, but is a lazy fecker who never wanted to be at our club and if he aint the most motivated person, what chance did we have? Lambert gave him chances, McLeish did too to be fair. He is a multi millionaire no doubt and wont mind getting his pockets filled, makes me sick. Given is different in that I am sure he will move on on lower wages as wants to play, Dunne IMO has given us decent service and not his fault re injury
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Irelands next level = Hull, Stoke, Cardiff, Reading, A league, MLS or Celtic.
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Weimann is good enough for next level now I would suggest, the likes of Liverpool and Newcastle seem to be interested. Given wont get a top team, wont get any team with his wages I suspect. Guzan maybe
have to challenge such claims as I dont think weimann would be starting ahead of suarez or papa cisse or figure as a first choice of either of these teams. One more season (remember this is his first season) makes sense
I dont disagree, though when you see some of the players Liverpool have played wide this season we may think differently. As for Newcastle, Ben arfa and sissoko look quality, but Weimann may be in there with the, papa cisse is the figurehead and not sure weimann up for that target role yet. I think he would get many games in both teams though
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You (VK and VfL) are right but who is going to pay him to move?
There are now 4 managers who have not motivated him - the one at City who sold him, Houllier, TSM and now PL. They're all different in their approach, so the consistent part of all those partnerships is ...SI.
He's a millstone unless PL can get anything out of him in the 4 matches we have left. Good luck with that.
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Louzie0 I wouldnt have him anywhere near the squad in last 4 games, cant be trusted. As for anyone buying him, the only chance is the yanks, but cant see it. Ireland is a disgrace of a footballer, may do a lot for charity, so he should because he does feck all in his own profession.
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Villa from Luton I tend to agree with you.
According to sources on here he's been training with the youth team, though. If he is not a total waste of space, hopefully he has been useful in that context.
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Not if he is giving it the big I am bollox, he has made a fortune from being a footballer who initially was excellent but the last few years has given little input. The bloke has talent and that is the most upsetting thing
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The bloke has talent and that is the most upsetting thing.
Isn't it. The most irritating and most gut-wrenching thing is watching somebody with real game -changing talent just... piss it up the wall!
(I was really searching for another way of expressing how I feel, as a female fan of the Villa - but actually I have to go with that one!)
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Ireland is fairly talented but give me a Craig Gardner or the great jimmy milner any day. The responsibility lies firstly with player but the coaches and set up are needed to encourage the individual to be part of a team. Ireland could excel but not at any higher level as he would be found wanting under the 'pressure' of consistent high standards. I m glad he's not part of set up as Lambert was a excellent midfielder and knows what's needed so i trust him !
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We've talked about others but Bennett was absolutely superb defensively and going forward tonight.
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We've talked about others but Bennett was absolutely superb defensively and going forward tonight.
Agree.
I was a touch concerned before last night, as both Johnson and Larsson are decent wingers. Bennett not only kept Johnsonin check, but he managed to get forward and put in some great crosses.
I thought both our full backs were excellent last night