Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: john e on December 16, 2012, 06:04:39 PM
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just some of things i've heard on here in the last few weeks -
Lamberts plan is not working, we are worse than last season
we need to find a way of playing Bent, otherwise we are definitely going down
the young players are not good enough, most are championship level players
i hate to say this but Mcliesh was doing a better job
if Randy doesnt back Lambert heavily in Jan and bring in experience, we are doomed
we need to bring back NRC to give us some grip in midfield
i know that i'm posting this after a good win against Liverpool, and there is a long way to go,
but i havent made any of those points up, they are genuinly what i've been reading on here by some posters, and in my opinion are the biggest load of bollocks i have read since i joined the site seven years ago
only in my opinion obviously
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You'll have read the exact polar opposites of those opinions too.
Internet message board in extreme views shocker!
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The whole "huh huh, the things people said on here, what tossers" thing is tedious.
Before yesterday, we were 17th or thereabouts, and had barely won away for what seemed like years. It's hardly surprising some people were getting annoyed or worried.
I'd also suggest that the assertion we need to graft some experience onto the squad or we may continue to struggle is hardly proven to be nonsense.
I'm sure people could point at things you've posted and assert that they, too, were utter bollocks, John.
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You missed mine. I thought Benteke was crap when he signed him. I am happy to have been wrong.
......SO FAR! I am watching you Tekkers. ;)
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Bit early to be starting with this sort of nonsense I reckon John. It was a brilliant win yesterday, but we've got Chelsea away next, followed by another top 4 club in Spurs at home, and we're still only 3 points above the bottom three. I notice you didn't post anything similar following last week's home 0-0 draw with Stoke.
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You missed mine. I thought Benteke was crap when he signed him. I am happy to have been wrong.
......SO FAR! I am watching you Tekkers. ;)
My thoughts exactly, in his first game his touch was like a 10 yard pass and it bounced off him like a pinball machine. Humble pie tastes nice.
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So fucking what? If we were all scared to say what we think because some anal clown* was going to drag it up months later nothing would ever get posted except sitting on the fence.
And I say that as someone who hasn't made a fool of myself for hours.
*No offence like.
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It's different views that make forums interesting. Having said that, the assertiveness of some of the views looks silly in hindsight - eg people suggesting that lambert has nothing about him, or that this is the worst group of players they've ever seen at villa park. Nonsense
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These are supporters dark thoughts that we all have they are just sharing them with us because they feel safe. Nothing wrong with that let people have their say. The more honest the better.
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john e, this is a forum. People talk shit, philosophise, get it wrong / spectacularly wrong, have really interesting insights. Nobody should paint themselves as the arbiter of such things.
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The thing with Benteke for me, is that when he arrived he looked very strong and powerful as he does now, but I thought that running with the ball he looked dreadful. I was very, very wrong, if that will cheer John up a bit.
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90% of the population find Michael Mcintyre funny.
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Man utd fan who the fuck bent eke?
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I take it none of you are going to join my "Bring Back Big 'Eck" campaign then. Bastards.
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in his first match i thought benteke looked a bit shit but i have changed my mind because now he look useful, good even, and with a great promise
with lambert initially i thought it was a very good appointment but then i worried that he wasn't that good after all as we haven't played very well in some matches and he has got some substitutions spectacularly wrong, and that raises a question mark over his tactical nous
we won 3-1 away against chelsea last season who clearly are a better team so this result doesn't mean that our worries are over
however while that result proved to be a blip, yesterday's result seems to be part of a trend of improvement, last season we got steadily worse
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Don't agree with postings like this generally but I would love to get the opinions now of some of the people saying benteke/clark/bannan were all shit and needed to be replaced with experience. Those 3 are now absolutely key to us and are getting better and better, I just wonder whether people think they were a bit premature in writing them off as never good enough.
I've been backing the idea of trusting the youth for a while so I'm pretty pleased with how things are going right now. I'll progress to smug if things carry on improving.
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From a bloke who told us that Grant Holt will definetely be playing for us this year so we should just get used to it...
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The thing with Benteke for me, is that when he arrived he looked very strong and powerful as he does now, but I thought that running with the ball he looked dreadful. I was very, very wrong, if that will cheer John up a bit.
The "absolute donkey" comment will haunt you for years Riss!
As for me, i've been so wrong so often about players listing them all would make this post the length of War and Peace.
Personal ahem 'highlights' include things along the lines of, "Scimeca will captain England" "Beye will be a good solid buy and prove very useful" "Sidwell will be immense for us" "Steven Davis will become a Villa legend". I also remember telling my mates that Cristiano Ronaldo would rank along side Veron as a shite signing for Ferguson.
I guess that's why i'm still waiting to be appointed Villa manager.
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Don't agree with postings like this generally but I would love to get the opinions now of some of the people saying benteke/clark/bannan were all shit and needed to be replaced with experience. Those 3 are now absolutely key to us and are getting better and better, I just wonder whether people think they were a bit premature in writing them off as never good enough.
I've been backing the idea of trusting the youth for a while so I'm pretty pleased with how things are going right now. I'll progress to smug if things carry on improving.
I've often slated Bannan over the last 18 months or so. I'll be delighted if he continues his recent form and proves me completely wrong.
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some anal clown*
John Wayne Gacy?
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I generally agree a bit of patience is no bad thing, but I'm so clueless I'm just starting to have nagging doubts about Billy McNeill.
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I was slated on here three years ago for saying Bannan would be a quality player.
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I was slated on here three years ago for saying Bannan would be a quality player.
Surely not 'slated'? I've been Bannan's most apologetic cheerleader here for years and it's passed vaguely without comment beyond simple disagreement.
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The term 'slated' seems to be rather hyperbolic. Any evidence to support this?
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I'm not keen on Bannan, hope i'm proved wrong.
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Looking at things through my claret and blue tinted glasses, I have no doubt things will be fine.
I've said that it will take some time for Lambert to find the formation to suit and it looks like he's found one to suit us.
New manager, new players, new system, it was never going to be an easy season. It's along road and we've just turned the first, of many, corners.
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The term 'slated' seems to be rather hyperbolic. Any evidence to support this?
Yeah. I'll dig out some posts tomorrow when at work. I'm busy watching Sports Personality just now
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The thing with Benteke for me, is that when he arrived he looked very strong and powerful as he does now, but I thought that running with the ball he looked dreadful. I was very, very wrong, if that will cheer John up a bit.
The "absolute donkey" comment will haunt you for years Riss!
As for me, i've been so wrong so often about players listing them all would make this post the length of War and Peace.
Personal ahem 'highlights' include things along the lines of, "Scimeca will captain England" "Beye will be a good solid buy and prove very useful" "Sidwell will be immense for us" "Steven Davis will become a Villa legend". I also remember telling my mates that Cristiano Ronaldo would rank along side Veron as a shite signing for Ferguson.
I guess that's why i'm still waiting to be appointed Villa manager.
I think you were just as much on Weimann's back to be honest! ;) I think we'll call that a score draw and move on!
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I reckon something else you may hear is, fu*king yesssss we've beat Chelsea away, get in!!
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Actually I just argued that Weimann wasn't a much better player than Benteke IIRC. I can't recall ever saying I don't rate him. So ner ner!
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i hate to say this but Mcliesh was doing a better job
Missed this one.
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Actually I just argued that Weimann wasn't a much better player than Benteke IIRC. I can't recall ever saying I don't rate him. So ner ner!
I'll hold my hands up and admit I didn't think Weimann would make it!
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i hate to say this but Mcliesh was doing a better job
Missed this one.
I do remember more than one "we're as bad as we were last season" type comment. Off the top of my head can't remember anyone saying McLeish was better though.
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i hate to say this but Mcliesh was doing a better job
Missed this one.
I do remember more than one "we're as bad as we were last season" type comment. Off the top of my head can't remember anyone saying McLeish was better though.
That's the thing, several games this season HAVE been just as bad as last.
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i hate to say this but Mcliesh was doing a better job
Missed this one.
I do remember more than one "we're as bad as we were last season" type comment. Off the top of my head can't remember anyone saying McLeish was better though.
That's the thing, several games this season HAVE been just as bad as last.
As someone who endured most of Villa's home games last season I absolutely refute that statement.
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i hate to say this but Mcliesh was doing a better job
Missed this one.
I believe the phrase is "hoist with one's own petard".
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Anyway, we all know the most ridiculous thing this season is anyone who failed to acknowledge the power of the Admiral's Pie!
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i hate to say this but Mcliesh was doing a better job
Missed this one.
I do remember more than one "we're as bad as we were last season" type comment. Off the top of my head can't remember anyone saying McLeish was better though.
That's the thing, several games this season HAVE been just as bad as last.
As someone who endured most of Villa's home games last season I absolutely refute that statement.
I went to every home game last season and 17 aways. And I also refute that statement.
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Doncha (wish your husband/striker was Benteke?) just love these festive confessions?
It's enough to even make a Gnasher crack a smile at yesterday's performance.
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People have spouted bollocks on here for many a year.
I, on the other hand, have only spoke pearls of wisdom.
I've always been right, you've always been wrong, so there!
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It's enough to even make a Gnasher crack a smile at yesterday's performance.
Steady on! ;)
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I've always rated Bannan, I just thought his size might be a handicap. A way to go yet, but I hope I was wrong. I don't tend to get over-excited about our youngsters either. There's just no way of knowing from reserve football, much as I love it.
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sorry, i havent intentionaly been ignoring the thread, i have been down the pub, and have only just arrived back home
i thought i might get some reaction, and i'm not dissapointed, there is some criticism of me and will just take that on the chin
we all make statements that dont work out, and i have done the same, as as been pointed out, but i still think there is a massive difference between predicting a player will be good or bad and getting that wrong, and not seeing where the club is trying to go long term, and the way we are trying to get there
the stuf about how Randy is shit, Lamberts way isnt working and the youngsters arnt good enough is a major doubt about the whole direction of the club and how you see it turning out, its not just a punt on a player we have seen a couple of times.
anyway, no harm done, going to bed now as have had a fair few guinness and hope to see you all tomorow
night and God bless
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Don't agree with postings like this generally but I would love to get the opinions now of some of the people saying benteke/clark/bannan were all shit and needed to be replaced with experience.
I don't think I've ever heard anyone on here say Clark is shit.
I'd also suggest that there's a long way to go this season, and whilst the kids did well yesterday, the thought we need more experience is hardly controversial. It may even turn out to be right.
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Don't agree with postings like this generally but I would love to get the opinions now of some of the people saying benteke/clark/bannan were all shit and needed to be replaced with experience. Those 3 are now absolutely key to us and are getting better and better, I just wonder whether people think they were a bit premature in writing them off as never good enough.
I've been backing the idea of trusting the youth for a while so I'm pretty pleased with how things are going right now. I'll progress to smug if things carry on improving.
I'll have a bite at that one Paul, as I have been one who has criticised our youngsters on here. I have always rated Clark and Weimann, but still think the jury is still out on the rest of them, though some of them do seem to be making good progress this season. I still maintain that we could do with a couple more experienced players in the squad and believe that competition would push them on even further.
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How boring would it be if everybody sat around blandly spinning the most positive line they could? Remember when we were struggling under Houllier and the official site kept spinning these 'interviews' with various players on about how they wanted to start climbing the table etc etc?
The reason I come here for Aston Villa news is because I know everything will get teased out and debated so you will arrive at a more informed opinion having read various arguments being put forward.
After two bad seasons and a very close brush with the drop (many) villa fans might be forgiven for being apprehensive. Many of us have bought into what Lambert is trying to do and if you look at the 'favourite player' thread you will see the current squad is as well liked as any we have had this decade.
I think most fans can see what Lambert's plan and are willing to give it time. It was just that the longer we stayed down near the relegation zone the more nervy we would get and question whether a couple of more experienced players ought to be brought in to help get us out of it.
It's great to see things click and hopefully we will be looking up the table from now on.
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This season for me is summed up by a (paraphrased) comment by Woodhall (not arselicking like), we are now waiting for things to go right rather than waiting for them to go wrong.
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I'll be quite open and say I had my doubts about Lambert (still do, to a certain extent).
Not McLeish-size doubts, but he is a young manager learning on the job. Like most of our team, in fact.
It's reassuring that- for the most part- there hasn't been crazy talk of sacking him though, even when we were turning in some pretty dire performances. But then most Villa fans tried to give McLeish a chance too, something often overlooked in J'accuse threads such as these.
Back to PL: He's made two massive calls this season in benching Given and Bent. You have to get those decisions right and -thus far- he's been vindicated. Having the courage to bring in the likes of Lowton, Westwood and Benteke is another mark in his favour. Of all the players we signed this summer, I'd really only heard of Ron and Joe Bennett (and Guzan, obv). We've been crying out for that kind of awareness in the transfer market for donkeys years, and it looks like we've finally got it.
I still have concerns about some aspect of his management, but overall I'd have to say this is the most optimistic I have been as a Villa fan for a while. We have (hopefully) turned a corner.
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I reckon we will lose the next 10 games without scoring a goal.
You will all change your tune again then !
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The thing that sticks in my mind is a poster who shall remain nameless (but it isn't difficult to work out who it is) calling for Given to be reinstated in goal after we lost 5-0 to Man. City. *shakes head*
Lowton (excellent all season) and Westwood (looking like a gem) also being regularly attacked becasue they came from Sheffield and Crewe.
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There are a few things I reckon we would do well to remember. The first is just how wretched we were last season. Not just in terms of points on the board, but the way we went about things on the pitch. I can remember the last relegation season (although not the third division one), and recall how desperately poor we were that year, and am not going to say last year was "worse" - clearly, we stayed up, which is a bit of a decider, but I can't remember ever feeling as frequently embarassed as a Villa fan as last year.
We were frequently thoroughly embarassing to watch. We looked like a club going one way, and one way only. I also don't want to start another MON ruck, but I think he had certain habits and ways of playing drummed into the players when he was here. To an extent, it obviously worked for him, but in terms of looking to the future, it is a style with next to no longevity, as were a great number of the players he bought.
Houllier tried to change it, and looked like he was getting results near the end, then fate intervened. McLeish set us back further.
All of that is not going to change inside one season. Anyone who thinks Lambert should have been under pressure for his job is welcome to their opinion, but really, I find it a bizarre opinion to have.
I doubt there is a single person on this board who hasn't vented or felt pissed off at the way the season has been so far (for the large part), but I can also think of barely anyone who hasn't been able to see green shoots of recovery in the way we've played thus far - it seems that obvious.
Personally, if I were Lerner, I would give Lambert three years and decent funding to turn this club around and get it established back on the way to where it belongs. I'd even stick with him if he were to get us relegated this season.
We need continuity, and a defining ethos / way of doing things at the club, and it has to be something forward thinking, based on modern football, and it needs to be built on a solid base of good, dependable players, and a manager who knows what he's doing. I think we have got that manager now, we need to back him.
I do, though, think we are still going to have a lot of low moments before the end of this season. We just need to be prepared for them. This is a young side, probably still far too short on experience, the acquisition of a Petrov style player in January would be the sort of thing to help (I don't mean necessarily his style of player, but that type of experienced pesonality).
When I see stuff like "ha ha, see, how WRONG were you lot!111!!!" on the basis of two decent results, I do wonder if people are starting to get carried away and are going to be disappointed that we don't carry on climbing the table, sweeping away all opposition.
That's probably not going to happen, to react like that strikes me as much a case of failing to see the bigger picture as the people who can't see any signs of improvement in the way we've played since the start of the season.
We need to get behind the team and manager, but we also need to be realistic, and understand, we've got a long, long way to go yet. It's good we've started to show more signs of being on the right route.
Reading RAWK yesterday, I was chuckling at the delusion of some of their fans, who seem to think they should be competing with Man City, oblivious to how much things have changed and how their club's aspirations have changed as a result.
There is a certain similarity between Liverpool's position and ours (something which a few journalists touched on at the weekend). Like Liverpool, the decline of this club is not going to be turned around by anybody in the space of a season, and almost certainly not two seasons, either. We're carrying out a fundamental rebuilt of the club, it will need time and support. Just as an iffy first half of the season is not reason to pack it all in and give up, a couple of decent results is not the sign of anything being resolved just yet.
Give it time.
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I'm not keen on Bannan, hope i'm proved wrong.
I think BB looked better on Saturday as he kept doing quick short passes and it seemed to work the way we were set up other than the other way he normally plays which sometimes frustrates me .
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i see a thread has been closed down because there is already a 'told you so thread' fair enough, but its to early to be saying i told you so yet, we still dont know how the season will pan out.
but i can guarantee one thing with 100% certainty,
if we do take a turn for the worst and end up going down, every one of the doom and gloomers will be on here taking the piss, how we all 'had 'our heads in the clouds' 'away with the faries' 'deluded into buying into Lamberts plan' and we will be in no place to defend ourselves because we will have been proved wrong, thats the way it is thats the way it should work.
but if you point that out every one of the spineless wankers will come out with 'well you got it wrong about a player 10 months ago' line, or something equaly as mundane,
as if its the same as continualy dronning on with 'Randy's shit' 'Lamberts plan isnt working' 'we are all heading for the championship as we are run by clowns'
if you get it wrong, admit it, i have always done that, hold your hands up and move on, but the doomers just hide behind excuses, thats what really pisses me of,
they post whatever shit they want, with no thought of any come back
( i realise it pisses me of probably more than anyone else)
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Honestly, John, "spineless wankers"?
People wonder why threads like this get locked, and that shows exactly why.
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That's an excellent post Paulie. IF we are relegated, I would stick with Lambert too.
I wouldn't consider this season a failure either. A lot of things have been wrong at Villa for quite a while, most of those seem to be changing for the better.
It would be more a case of what Lambert and his team have brought to the table has come too late rather than being unsuccessful.
At least we bought ourselves a ticket.
I'd say that Liverpool are actually further behind in the process than us. We also have the more likely manager, staff .. and chairman ... to see it through.
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I don't see this as an 'I Told you so' thread nor did I see my thread as one.
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Honestly, John, "spineless wankers"?
People wonder why threads like this get locked, and that shows exactly why.
fair enough went a bit to far there, sorry
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I heard someone say they listened to Pearl Jam. Couldn't believe my eyes when I read that. Who'd do such a thing???
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Excellent post, Paulie, and pretty much sums up the way I feel too.
Last season was dire beyond belief, we must never forget that, and everyone involved at the club should be determined to see that it never happens again. The levels we sank to last season were unacceptable for this football club.
For the first time in several years, I'm not embarrassed to admit I'm a Villa supporter. I'm genuinely beginning to get excited about the path we're on now, but at the same time I'm conscious that it's very early days and there will be many reverses on the way.
My feet are on the ground.
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Having a site like this can be great but there are times when the short termism and ill thought out comments make you want to take a pick axe to the internet. You can't intelligently judge players, teams or managers over the short term, there are plenty of examples of great starts that turned out to be a flash in the pan or those who took their time to settle but ended up as important players. Forming opinions is only natural, being so certain of them with so little evidence is another thing entirely. We've seen a hint of what we might eventually become in some recent performances but we need to do it consistently over a period of months and years before we can judge it as Ken McNaught as opposed to Didier Six.
All we can say with any certainty is that there are some encouraging signs, that Lambert isn't afraid to make big decisions and that the club appears a happier place than it has for a few years.
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I'm not one of the grammar police but 'to' and 'too' isn't to (sic) difficult too (sic) grasp. Think that's what has pissed me off the most this season.
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That's an excellent post Paulie. IF we are relegated, I would stick with Lambert too.
I wouldn't consider this season a failure either. A lot of things have been wrong at Villa for quite a while, most of those seem to be changing for the better.
It would be more a case of what Lambert and his team have brought to the table has come too late rather than being unsuccessful.
At least we bought ourselves a ticket.
I'd say that Liverpool are actually further behind in the process than us. We also have the more likely manager, staff .. and chairman ... to see it through.
Agree with Paulie's post and this one.
We look to be moving in the right direction and PL should be allowed time, certainly this season and next.
I've always thought Randy had the best interests of Villa at heart and I'd also agree we are more advanced in our development than the Red Scousers. Their squad might look a bit better quality and experience on paper than ours, but last weekend it showed we can be right up there with them by the end of the season, especially if PL can work a bit more magic in the January window.
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I think we're further along the way than Liverpool, but Liverpool's target of where they want to be again is higher than ours, and less realistic (competing with Man City, for example).
I like Rodgers, and he clearly has the right idea about how to play football, but that thing he said last week re second was daft. I know he was misquoted to a degree, or that what he said had some spin put on it in the press, but the basic point was that he didn't really have much to gain by saying it in the first place.
Lambert says all the right things about where we want to go, and what he is trying to do, but he's very clever in that he doesn't find himself saying things "for the sake of it" and opening himself up for criticism.
Anyway, fuck Liverpool.
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I wish I'd heard or seen Seattle Villain on here this season.
I miss him so much.
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I wish I'd heard or seen Seattle Villain on here this season.
I miss him so much.
last active September 4th this year, so he still logs in from time to time.
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I think we're further along the way than Liverpool, but Liverpool's target of where they want to be again is higher than ours, and less realistic (competing with Man City, for example).
I like Rodgers, and he clearly has the right idea about how to play football, but that thing he said last week re second was daft. I know he was misquoted to a degree, or that what he said had some spin put on it in the press, but the basic point was that he didn't really have much to gain by saying it in the first place.
Lambert says all the right things about where we want to go, and what he is trying to do, but he's very clever in that he doesn't find himself saying things "for the sake of it" and opening himself up for criticism.
Anyway, fuck Liverpool.
The main difference between us and them is that we realised and admitted how bad things were and accepted it was going to be one step back in order to take two forward.
They still live in a world where they should be challenging for the title and can attract any player/manager they like to the club.
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I thought Benteke would flop. It's still early day but he's getting better with every game.
Not keen on Bannan, but he does seem to work well with Westwood.
Not been impressed with Bennett, but think I'll change my mind after he's had a good run in the side.
Very impressed with Baker.
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just some of things i've heard on here in the last few weeks -
Lamberts plan is not working, we are worse than last season - I'd say it's work in progress, it certainly wasn't working.
we need to find a way of playing Bent, otherwise we are definitely going down - we are 3 off relegation spots with two tough games to come, he was a 24m investment with a reputation of scoring 1 in every 2 games, I still think there is justification to this way of thinking.
the young players are not good enough, most are championship level players - factually this was correct, they aren't proven, they may get us halfway up the league and if that is the level of our ambition then I suppose your point is borne out.
i hate to say this but Mcliesh was doing a better job - Never ever did I utter those words and agree that anyone who said that needs to be incarcerated.
if Randy doesnt back Lambert heavily in Jan and bring in experience, we are doomed. This is a long, long season, youngsters can fizzle out with the demands of it all so I still think this is a valid concern.
we need to bring back NRC to give us some grip in midfield. Yes when Petrov got ill, not now Westwood is finding his feet.
i know that i'm posting this after a good win against Liverpool, and there is a long way to go,
but i havent made any of those points up, they are genuinly what i've been reading on here by some posters, and in my opinion are the biggest load of bollocks i have read since i joined the site seven years ago
only in my opinion obviously
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the crazy thing about this is we are 3points off a relegation place with 20 games left,
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I wish I'd heard or seen Seattle Villain on here this season.
I miss him so much.
last active September 4th this year, so he still logs in from time to time.
Hang on to your cock.
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the crazy thing about this is we are 3points off a relegation place with 20 games left,
but given the amount of changes made in the summer, both to personnel and to style we were always likely to grow into the season. Given this I think most fans are now, maybe only sub-conciously, confident that we will pull away from the bottom end of the table over the next few months. As mentioned on another thread, I think we'll be around 45 points, along with 6-7 other teams, and a fair way clear of the battle in the end.
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There are a few things I reckon we would do well to remember. The first is just how wretched we were last season. Not just in terms of points on the board, but the way we went about things on the pitch. I can remember the last relegation season (although not the third division one), and recall how desperately poor we were that year, and am not going to say last year was "worse" - clearly, we stayed up, which is a bit of a decider, but I can't remember ever feeling as frequently embarassed as a Villa fan as last year.
We were frequently thoroughly embarassing to watch. We looked like a club going one way, and one way only. I also don't want to start another MON ruck, but I think he had certain habits and ways of playing drummed into the players when he was here. To an extent, it obviously worked for him, but in terms of looking to the future, it is a style with next to no longevity, as were a great number of the players he bought.
Houllier tried to change it, and looked like he was getting results near the end, then fate intervened. McLeish set us back further.
All of that is not going to change inside one season. Anyone who thinks Lambert should have been under pressure for his job is welcome to their opinion, but really, I find it a bizarre opinion to have.
I doubt there is a single person on this board who hasn't vented or felt pissed off at the way the season has been so far (for the large part), but I can also think of barely anyone who hasn't been able to see green shoots of recovery in the way we've played thus far - it seems that obvious.
Personally, if I were Lerner, I would give Lambert three years and decent funding to turn this club around and get it established back on the way to where it belongs. I'd even stick with him if he were to get us relegated this season.
We need continuity, and a defining ethos / way of doing things at the club, and it has to be something forward thinking, based on modern football, and it needs to be built on a solid base of good, dependable players, and a manager who knows what he's doing. I think we have got that manager now, we need to back him.
I do, though, think we are still going to have a lot of low moments before the end of this season. We just need to be prepared for them. This is a young side, probably still far too short on experience, the acquisition of a Petrov style player in January would be the sort of thing to help (I don't mean necessarily his style of player, but that type of experienced pesonality).
When I see stuff like "ha ha, see, how WRONG were you lot!111!!!" on the basis of two decent results, I do wonder if people are starting to get carried away and are going to be disappointed that we don't carry on climbing the table, sweeping away all opposition.
That's probably not going to happen, to react like that strikes me as much a case of failing to see the bigger picture as the people who can't see any signs of improvement in the way we've played since the start of the season.
We need to get behind the team and manager, but we also need to be realistic, and understand, we've got a long, long way to go yet. It's good we've started to show more signs of being on the right route.
Reading RAWK yesterday, I was chuckling at the delusion of some of their fans, who seem to think they should be competing with Man City, oblivious to how much things have changed and how their club's aspirations have changed as a result.
There is a certain similarity between Liverpool's position and ours (something which a few journalists touched on at the weekend). Like Liverpool, the decline of this club is not going to be turned around by anybody in the space of a season, and almost certainly not two seasons, either. We're carrying out a fundamental rebuilt of the club, it will need time and support. Just as an iffy first half of the season is not reason to pack it all in and give up, a couple of decent results is not the sign of anything being resolved just yet.
Give it time.
A very good post Paulie.
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There are a few things I reckon we would do well to remember. The first is just how wretched we were last season. Not just in terms of points on the board, but the way we went about things on the pitch. I can remember the last relegation season (although not the third division one), and recall how desperately poor we were that year, and am not going to say last year was "worse" - clearly, we stayed up, which is a bit of a decider, but I can't remember ever feeling as frequently embarassed as a Villa fan as last year.
We were frequently thoroughly embarassing to watch. We looked like a club going one way, and one way only. I also don't want to start another MON ruck, but I think he had certain habits and ways of playing drummed into the players when he was here. To an extent, it obviously worked for him, but in terms of looking to the future, it is a style with next to no longevity, as were a great number of the players he bought.
Houllier tried to change it, and looked like he was getting results near the end, then fate intervened. McLeish set us back further.
All of that is not going to change inside one season. Anyone who thinks Lambert should have been under pressure for his job is welcome to their opinion, but really, I find it a bizarre opinion to have.
I doubt there is a single person on this board who hasn't vented or felt pissed off at the way the season has been so far (for the large part), but I can also think of barely anyone who hasn't been able to see green shoots of recovery in the way we've played thus far - it seems that obvious.
Personally, if I were Lerner, I would give Lambert three years and decent funding to turn this club around and get it established back on the way to where it belongs. I'd even stick with him if he were to get us relegated this season.
We need continuity, and a defining ethos / way of doing things at the club, and it has to be something forward thinking, based on modern football, and it needs to be built on a solid base of good, dependable players, and a manager who knows what he's doing. I think we have got that manager now, we need to back him.
I do, though, think we are still going to have a lot of low moments before the end of this season. We just need to be prepared for them. This is a young side, probably still far too short on experience, the acquisition of a Petrov style player in January would be the sort of thing to help (I don't mean necessarily his style of player, but that type of experienced pesonality).
When I see stuff like "ha ha, see, how WRONG were you lot!111!!!" on the basis of two decent results, I do wonder if people are starting to get carried away and are going to be disappointed that we don't carry on climbing the table, sweeping away all opposition.
That's probably not going to happen, to react like that strikes me as much a case of failing to see the bigger picture as the people who can't see any signs of improvement in the way we've played since the start of the season.
We need to get behind the team and manager, but we also need to be realistic, and understand, we've got a long, long way to go yet. It's good we've started to show more signs of being on the right route.
Reading RAWK yesterday, I was chuckling at the delusion of some of their fans, who seem to think they should be competing with Man City, oblivious to how much things have changed and how their club's aspirations have changed as a result.
There is a certain similarity between Liverpool's position and ours (something which a few journalists touched on at the weekend). Like Liverpool, the decline of this club is not going to be turned around by anybody in the space of a season, and almost certainly not two seasons, either. We're carrying out a fundamental rebuilt of the club, it will need time and support. Just as an iffy first half of the season is not reason to pack it all in and give up, a couple of decent results is not the sign of anything being resolved just yet.
Give it time.
Great post Paulie and I agree with pretty much all of it. We have to remember just how low we reached last season (I still maintain that by those last few games we had become the worst team in the league) and that it was always going to take time to recover from that. What has impressed me most about Lambert is that in the short space of time he has been at the club, he has put solid foundations in place both on and off the pitch which can be built upon in the next few years. He's taken a massive risk going down the route he has chosen (relying on young unproven players as opposed to buying more established players), but it does seem as though he and his staff have a decent eye for talent and on the whole, his purchases have been successful so far.
I have been to most of the home games this season and it is clear to see that although we are nowhere near the finished article yet, there are definite signs of recovery and that the fans are slowly but surely buying into it. As opposed to last season, you can see that we now have a pattern of play and it is clear that the players are being sent out with belief and confidence in themselves. Saying that though, we are still short of quality in a few key areas, but unlike a few of our previous managers, I feel that Paul Lambert will be able to identify that and address it.
All said and done, we are still in a very precarious position though and a couple of defeats combined in an upturn fortune for a few of the clubs below us and we will be right back in the relegation zone.
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We are 3 points (+5 gd) from the relegation places, we're also 5 points from 10th or if you like, 10 points from 5th.
It's a very tight league and at this moment its all about momentum. Any kind of momentum or form shoots you up the league.
We seem to have some, hence the optimism. Plus, many of the teams in this league are hardly frightening. We can easily climb the table.
But you never know. A few key injuries here and there and you start struggling again but Lambert's team is looking strong, motivated and starting to take shape and we're heading the right way. His philospohies are just starting to bed in.
I can't see it tailing off and think we'll only improve (and strengthen in January) but who knows.
It's not time to crow about anything yet but I never thought things were that bad anyway.
I could see something taking shape.
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Third game of the season was Newcastle away, where we looked very good and should have won. I think from there you could see what he was trying to create, so due to numerous factors (age of the squad, number of new signings, short time to work with the new manager) it was only right to be patient and give them time to get it right.
That's not to say they have it right yet, as I doubt we'll play as well as we did in the last two games for the rest of the season, but it's becoming ever more clear what we are trying to get to and exactly how good that could be!
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Third game of the season was Newcastle away, where we looked very good and should have won. I think from there you could see what he was trying to create, so due to numerous factors (age of the squad, number of new signings, short time to work with the new manager) it was only right to be patient and give them time to get it right.
I thought you could see it from the first game of the season, West Ham away. We lost, but you could definitely see the change in the style of play, and see what he wanted us to do (even if we didn't do it for much of the match)
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Third game of the season was Newcastle away, where we looked very good and should have won. I think from there you could see what he was trying to create, so due to numerous factors (age of the squad, number of new signings, short time to work with the new manager) it was only right to be patient and give them time to get it right.
I thought you could see it from the first game of the season, West Ham away. We lost, but you could definitely see the change in the style of play, and see what he wanted us to do (even if we didn't do it for much of the match)
Yes, we passed the ball, but we didn't look all that impressive doing it and didn't really threaten their goal much. Passing isn't in and of itself anything to be shouting about, but is a means to an end, which we only started to see at Newcastle, IMO.
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I think a lot, if not all the credit should go to Lambert's assistant, Ian Culverhouse.
Listening to Lambert's post match interview on Saturday night, I'd imagine that apart from Glasgow born, Barry Bannan, not a single Villa player understands a word he says.
Saying that, when I do manage to understand a word or two, I really like the bloke.
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I think when you factor in how bad we were last season and the large influx of new, unproven players, Lambert's done great. I'd like to see our stats with the cup run included, pretty impressive I'd say.
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Third game of the season was Newcastle away, where we looked very good and should have won. I think from there you could see what he was trying to create, so due to numerous factors (age of the squad, number of new signings, short time to work with the new manager) it was only right to be patient and give them time to get it right.
I thought you could see it from the first game of the season, West Ham away. We lost, but you could definitely see the change in the style of play, and see what he wanted us to do (even if we didn't do it for much of the match)
Yes, we passed the ball, but we didn't look all that impressive doing it and didn't really threaten their goal much. Passing isn't in and of itself anything to be shouting about, but is a means to an end, which we only started to see at Newcastle, IMO.
I think it's about developing good habits. Most of the decent sides are able to keep the ball for long periods and probe for openings, with most tackles being outlawed these days the chances of winning it back quickly and catching the opposition out of position are much reduced. So a more patient approach is required, something a lot of fans aren't comfortable with but are going to have to get used to.
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In the short term there'll be some dizzying highs, terriying lows and creamy middles but as a general long-term trend we're surely only gonna get better.
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I think it's about developing good habits. Most of the decent sides are able to keep the ball for long periods and probe for openings, with most tackles being outlawed these days the chances of winning it back quickly and catching the opposition out of position are much reduced. So a more patient approach is required, something a lot of fans aren't comfortable with but are going to have to get used to.
Welcome to the 21st century, Tony. I knew we'd get you here eventually. ;)
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Third game of the season was Newcastle away, where we looked very good and should have won. I think from there you could see what he was trying to create, so due to numerous factors (age of the squad, number of new signings, short time to work with the new manager) it was only right to be patient and give them time to get it right.
I thought you could see it from the first game of the season, West Ham away. We lost, but you could definitely see the change in the style of play, and see what he wanted us to do (even if we didn't do it for much of the match)
Yes, we passed the ball, but we didn't look all that impressive doing it and didn't really threaten their goal much. Passing isn't in and of itself anything to be shouting about, but is a means to an end, which we only started to see at Newcastle, IMO.
Hmm, well you did say "what he was trying to create" rather then more evidence of us actually doing it.
IIRC the first half hour or so we had phenomenal ball possession percentages.
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West ham and Everton we looked 'undercooked', as if the season just started a little too early for the changes PL wanted to make to really bed in. Since then we've looked pretty good on the whole other than a couple of poor 2nd halves.
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I think it's about developing good habits. Most of the decent sides are able to keep the ball for long periods and probe for openings, with most tackles being outlawed these days the chances of winning it back quickly and catching the opposition out of position are much reduced. So a more patient approach is required, something a lot of fans aren't comfortable with but are going to have to get used to.
Welcome to the 21st century, Tony. I knew we'd get you here eventually. ;)
Oh, ha ha Vivian.
Seriously though, it's more noticeable this season than ever that games are being refereed differently. It does take some of the excitement out of the game, as we've reached a stage where 'some' players think it's an affront to be tackled and flounce about accordingly, but that's the way it's going so we have to adapt. The exception to the rule obviously being Stoke who seem to have some sort of special dispensation to do what the fuck they like.
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I think it's about developing good habits. Most of the decent sides are able to keep the ball for long periods and probe for openings, with most tackles being outlawed these days the chances of winning it back quickly and catching the opposition out of position are much reduced. So a more patient approach is required, something a lot of fans aren't comfortable with but are going to have to get used to.
Welcome to the 21st century, Tony. I knew we'd get you here eventually. ;)
Oh, ha ha Vivian.
Seriously though, it's more noticeable this season than ever that games are being refereed differently. It does take some of the excitement out of the game, as we've reached a stage where 'some' players think it's an affront to be tackled and flounce about accordingly, but that's the way it's going so we have to adapt. The exception to the rule obviously being Stoke who seem to have some sort of special dispensation to do what the fuck they like.
Defending is now much more about controlling where the opposition play and forcing errors, it's probably better as it allows for a much faster game than before, and it puts more emphasis on technique rather than physique, English football has been behind in this regard for years.
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I think it's about developing good habits. Most of the decent sides are able to keep the ball for long periods and probe for openings, with most tackles being outlawed these days the chances of winning it back quickly and catching the opposition out of position are much reduced. So a more patient approach is required, something a lot of fans aren't comfortable with but are going to have to get used to.
Welcome to the 21st century, Tony. I knew we'd get you here eventually. ;)
Oh, ha ha Vivian.
Seriously though, it's more noticeable this season than ever that games are being refereed differently. It does take some of the excitement out of the game, as we've reached a stage where 'some' players think it's an affront to be tackled and flounce about accordingly, but that's the way it's going so we have to adapt. The exception to the rule obviously being Stoke who seem to have some sort of special dispensation to do what the fuck they like.
Defending is now much more about controlling where the opposition play and forcing errors, it's probably better as it allows for a much faster game than before, and it puts more emphasis on technique rather than physique, English football has been behind in this regard for years.
One thing that Lambert & Co have our players doing is playing like it's an honour to put on the Villa shirt. We must be the hardest working team in the Premier League. There's something very old school about the honesty of this current Villa side, very 1970's. Thankfully the football is bang up to date. I can't stop thinking about how this season reminds me of 74/75, we're building something special, it may take a bit of time but you just know we're on the right track.
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So fucking what? If we were all scared to say what we think because some anal clown* was going to drag it up months later nothing would ever get posted except sitting on the fence.
And I say that as someone who hasn't made a fool of myself for hours.
*No offence like.
" So fucking what? If we were all scared to say what we think because some anal clown* etc etc ".....Good to see one our esteemed ' Player-Manager,s " lifting the standard of debate on here .......of course the ' sort of ' apology makes it all alright then (? ) .................Godzvilla!
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All I'm saying is people shouldn't be afraid to be forthright in their views or we'd have nothing to argue or take the piss about.
Again, apologies to the easily offended.
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All I'm saying is people shouldn't be afraid to be forthright in their views or we'd have nothing to srgue or take the piss about.
Again, apologies to the easily offended.
I agree and disagree with that.
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All I'm saying is people shouldn't be afraid to be forthright in their views or we'd have nothing to srgue or take the piss about.
Again, apologies to the easily offended.
I agree and disagree with that.
I think you have a perfect right to say that.
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There can be no retribution without attribution - Sir Ronald Saunders - 1979
In the spirit of message board mockery - I offer you this pearl of wisdom - from the enduring Risso - when talking of PL's £20million summer transfer spend.
"Lambert gambled it all on lots of very average players though, when he'd probably have been better buying two or three very good players"
I am so glad it wasn't me.
Please - feel free to browse the dustier corners of the site - there are gems aplenty just waiting to be mined.
I'm off now to delete all my previous posts.
UTV
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I don't think that one is particularly fair in all honesty, we may well have been in a better place in the league if we'd done just that, and then used this coming window to bring in the youthful players to bulk up the squad.
I'm personally very much in favour of the Lambert approach but I don't think our current position can be used to say that he's got it perfect, there may have been other ways to achieve his long term goals that could've seen less short term alarm than we've seen at times.
The things that are more deserving of ridicule are where a player has been written of as a load of crap having played 4-5 games.
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....
Listening to Lambert's post match interview on Saturday night, I'd imagine that apart from Glasgow born, Barry Bannan, not a single Villa player understands a word he says.
.....
There was a great shot in the Liverpool game when KEA was about to come on. Lambert was giving him lengthy instructions as he waited on the touchline. The expression on the player's face suggested that not all was sinking in.
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There are a few things I reckon we would do well to remember. The first is just how wretched we were last season. Not just in terms of points on the board, but the way we went about things on the pitch. I can remember the last relegation season (although not the third division one), and recall how desperately poor we were that year, and am not going to say last year was "worse" - clearly, we stayed up, which is a bit of a decider, but I can't remember ever feeling as frequently embarassed as a Villa fan as last year.
We were frequently thoroughly embarassing to watch. We looked like a club going one way, and one way only. I also don't want to start another MON ruck, but I think he had certain habits and ways of playing drummed into the players when he was here. To an extent, it obviously worked for him, but in terms of looking to the future, it is a style with next to no longevity, as were a great number of the players he bought.
Houllier tried to change it, and looked like he was getting results near the end, then fate intervened. McLeish set us back further.
All of that is not going to change inside one season. Anyone who thinks Lambert should have been under pressure for his job is welcome to their opinion, but really, I find it a bizarre opinion to have.
I doubt there is a single person on this board who hasn't vented or felt pissed off at the way the season has been so far (for the large part), but I can also think of barely anyone who hasn't been able to see green shoots of recovery in the way we've played thus far - it seems that obvious.
Personally, if I were Lerner, I would give Lambert three years and decent funding to turn this club around and get it established back on the way to where it belongs. I'd even stick with him if he were to get us relegated this season.
We need continuity, and a defining ethos / way of doing things at the club, and it has to be something forward thinking, based on modern football, and it needs to be built on a solid base of good, dependable players, and a manager who knows what he's doing. I think we have got that manager now, we need to back him.
I do, though, think we are still going to have a lot of low moments before the end of this season. We just need to be prepared for them. This is a young side, probably still far too short on experience, the acquisition of a Petrov style player in January would be the sort of thing to help (I don't mean necessarily his style of player, but that type of experienced pesonality).
When I see stuff like "ha ha, see, how WRONG were you lot!111!!!" on the basis of two decent results, I do wonder if people are starting to get carried away and are going to be disappointed that we don't carry on climbing the table, sweeping away all opposition.
That's probably not going to happen, to react like that strikes me as much a case of failing to see the bigger picture as the people who can't see any signs of improvement in the way we've played since the start of the season.
We need to get behind the team and manager, but we also need to be realistic, and understand, we've got a long, long way to go yet. It's good we've started to show more signs of being on the right route.
Reading RAWK yesterday, I was chuckling at the delusion of some of their fans, who seem to think they should be competing with Man City, oblivious to how much things have changed and how their club's aspirations have changed as a result.
There is a certain similarity between Liverpool's position and ours (something which a few journalists touched on at the weekend). Like Liverpool, the decline of this club is not going to be turned around by anybody in the space of a season, and almost certainly not two seasons, either. We're carrying out a fundamental rebuilt of the club, it will need time and support. Just as an iffy first half of the season is not reason to pack it all in and give up, a couple of decent results is not the sign of anything being resolved just yet.
Give it time.
Great post Paulie!
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Bit early for major rethink when we're a mighty three points above the relegation Places. Yes I'm really pleased and a lot more positive than I have been, but being one result away from the drop zone hardly justifies a whole thread about how stupid anyone was to have any doubts or worries about this season.
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Well said, Mr. Nuts.
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I think one of the worst things i've ever seen on here was a minority of morons who said that being relegated 'wouldn't be so bad' and that 'at least it would be more competitive than the premier League.'
To my way of thinking, you are not an Aston Villa supporter if that is your mindset.
Certainly fits the Spineless bill to a tee.
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I think one of the worst things i've ever seen on here was a minority of morons who said that being relegated 'wouldn't be so bad' and that 'at least it would be more competitive than the premier League.'
To my way of thinking, you are not an Aston Villa supporter if that is your mindset.
Certainly fits the Spineless bill to a tee.
This. 100%.
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Maybe it was my age, maybe it was because it was so inevitable for so long, maybe it was because there was no internet to articulate our thoughts and obsess over what it meant. But when we went down in '87, I thought 'Right, it's happened, let's just get on with it', and I think a lot of people felt the same.
And that was five years after winning the European Cup (which was something else I never realised the importance of at the time).
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As long as they are not trolling I don't mind what people say. Do we really want to be licking each other's arses all the time?
Post match threads can be a bit tiresome, but I guess even there people are just venting their spleen in the immediate aftermath of a game.
It would be a sad world if people were discouraged from talking bollocks about football.
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The only opinions stupider than yours are mine.
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Maybe it was my age, maybe it was because it was so inevitable for so long, maybe it was because there was no internet to articulate our thoughts and obsess over what it meant. But when we went down in '87, I thought 'Right, it's happened, let's just get on with it', and I think a lot of people felt the same.
And that was five years after winning the European Cup (which was something else I never realised the importance of at the time).
Absolutely and fair enough, but i'm sure you weren't thinking
'It won't be so bad if we go down, at least we'll be more competitive.'
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Do we really want to be licking each other's arses all the time?
Some do and there's a sexual peccadilloes section being set up as we speak.
I'll bring the bidet.
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Fletch: No, I bet I wasn't. Then again, I absolutely acknowledge it's different these days, but it probably did us a favour when you look back now.
Saying that, a club with our record in the top flight should never have to contemplate playing at a lower level.
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In response to the OP I think people were just calling it as they saw it, most have been fairly balanced in their appraisals, and there have been times when things haven't looked good at all. We may be on a reasonable run and just off the back of two great wins but it's a bit premature to think we've turned the corner when we are still just 3 points off the bottom three with a very inexperienced squad. I still think we need to strengthen in January with some experience.
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Fletch: No, I bet I wasn't. Then again, I absolutely acknowledge it's different these days, but it probably did us a favour when you look back now.
Saying that, a club with our record in the top flight should never have to contemplate playing at a lower level.
I know there's a thread on here at the moment bemoaning the gun-jumping of those who said a couple of weeks ago that we were doomed, but I can honestly say I walked out of Villa 0 - Spurs 3 on the first day of that 86-7 season and said to my mate "we're going down this season, I can feel it in my bones, and that performance just confirms it". And I was right.
I didn't worry too much about it, mind, I fucked off to university two weeks later and started having the time of my life, only allowing football gloom to puncture the fun every now and then
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Maybe it was my age, maybe it was because it was so inevitable for so long, maybe it was because there was no internet to articulate our thoughts and obsess over what it meant. But when we went down in '87, I thought 'Right, it's happened, let's just get on with it', and I think a lot of people felt the same.
And that was five years after winning the European Cup (which was something else I never realised the importance of at the time).
Absolutely and fair enough, but i'm sure you weren't thinking
'It won't be so bad if we go down, at least we'll be more competitive.'
I wonder how many people at the time were convinced that it was inevitable that we'd then turn into the 1987 equivalent of Coventry City, Portsmouth or Bradford as we saw in the more panicky moments of this season.
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I remember thinking it would be a disaster beyond compare, but after getting over the numbing disappointment of relegation in 1987, for me and my mates at least, there was a sense of 'it's happened let's make the most of it'. We promptly bought season tickets and had a great season; I suspect that although some people will be put off many will adopt the attitude that we did back then. Villa fans can be quite perverse.
However, it's a purely hypothetical argument as it's not going to happen.
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Maybe it was my age, maybe it was because it was so inevitable for so long, maybe it was because there was no internet to articulate our thoughts and obsess over what it meant. But when we went down in '87, I thought 'Right, it's happened, let's just get on with it', and I think a lot of people felt the same.
And that was five years after winning the European Cup (which was something else I never realised the importance of at the time).
Absolutely and fair enough, but i'm sure you weren't thinking
'It won't be so bad if we go down, at least we'll be more competitive.'
I wonder how many people at the time were convinced that it was inevitable that we'd then turn into the 1987 equivalent of Coventry City, Portsmouth or Bradford as we saw in the more panicky moments of this season.
The financial implications of relegation in 1987 would have been nowhere as near as bad as they are now would they?
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Maybe it was my age, maybe it was because it was so inevitable for so long, maybe it was because there was no internet to articulate our thoughts and obsess over what it meant. But when we went down in '87, I thought 'Right, it's happened, let's just get on with it', and I think a lot of people felt the same.
And that was five years after winning the European Cup (which was something else I never realised the importance of at the time).
Absolutely and fair enough, but i'm sure you weren't thinking
'It won't be so bad if we go down, at least we'll be more competitive.'
I wonder how many people at the time were convinced that it was inevitable that we'd then turn into the 1987 equivalent of Coventry City, Portsmouth or Bradford as we saw in the more panicky moments of this season.
The financial implications of relegation in 1987 would have been nowhere as near as bad as they are now would they?
That's right.
We must also bear in mind the hefty increases in revenue that kick in next season.
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I think the predominant sentiment in 1987 was 'let's get on with it,' and that's what we did. I certainly don't remember seeing fellow Villans crying on the Holte End as we were sent down. I know there was much less at stake financially, but it's certainly a sign of the times that people were more stoic then. People often fulfil the role that's expected of them, and in a post-Diana society, where no reality TV programme is without its fair share of tears, we would see lots more blarting if the worst were to happen this time around. *sobs*
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I think the predominant sentiment in 1987 was 'let's get on with it,' and that's what we did. I certainly don't remember seeing fellow Villans crying on the Holte End as we were sent down. I know there was much less at stake financially, but it's certainly a sign of the times that people were more stoic then. People often fulfil the role that's expected of them, and in a post-Diana society, where no reality TV programme is without its fair share of tears, we would see lots more blarting if the worst were to happen this time around. *sobs*
they may well have been some blarting, but there were no Sky multi cameras catching every grimace from every supporter at every angle.
The 1987 relegation was a slow, inevitable death as well, not one of those last day of the season jobs.
I think if it happened now there would be more anger than anything and a large part of that would be peoples disgruntlement at the stratospheric wages that players receive.
As in 87, once people got over the shock, they'd say 'let's get on with it.'
However, the thought fills me with dread.
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if we went down again the most important thing would be the same as the last time,
the Manager and his plan for the future
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Maybe it was my age, maybe it was because it was so inevitable for so long, maybe it was because there was no internet to articulate our thoughts and obsess over what it meant. But when we went down in '87, I thought 'Right, it's happened, let's just get on with it', and I think a lot of people felt the same.
And that was five years after winning the European Cup (which was something else I never realised the importance of at the time).
Absolutely and fair enough, but i'm sure you weren't thinking
'It won't be so bad if we go down, at least we'll be more competitive.'
Has anyone said that?
I remember a few people, myself included, saying earlier this season that with such a young side, for the long-term good of the club, them spending 4/5 years struggling at the foot of the Premier League, get hammered every other week might not create the best outcome. Whilst relegation would be a horrendous scenario to find ourselves in, as in times when it's happened previously, it wouldn't be the end of the club and giving the youngsters the opportunity to build up a head of steam by thrashing some shit clubs in the Championship and (hopefully) dominating a league might be the best thing for them in the longer term. Couple that with the fact the parachute payment system is much more generous than it used to be and it would not necessarily be a complete disaster.
I view that as looking at the positives of a very bad situation, not hoping we go down so that we're more competitive.
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WE ARE NOT GOING DOWN ! >:(
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I think the predominant sentiment in 1987 was 'let's get on with it,' and that's what we did. I certainly don't remember seeing fellow Villans crying on the Holte End as we were sent down. I know there was much less at stake financially, but it's certainly a sign of the times that people were more stoic then. People often fulfil the role that's expected of them, and in a post-Diana society, where no reality TV programme is without its fair share of tears, we would see lots more blarting if the worst were to happen this time around. *sobs*
Would it be fair to say that a lot of Villa fans back in 1987 had seen the club play in the lower divisions, so the impact of relegation wouldn't have been so shocking? I would say that there are a lot of supporters these days who have only ever seen Villa play in the top flight (and been fairly high placed for most of that time), so relegation for that generation of supporters would be a lot worse.
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There was a fair bit of dust on the Holte late on in the Sheff Weds game and during the walk to the bus stop after. There was even some on the bus. Dirty WMPTE bastards. I wasn't the only one finding it a problem either.
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Maybe it was my age, maybe it was because it was so inevitable for so long, maybe it was because there was no internet to articulate our thoughts and obsess over what it meant. But when we went down in '87, I thought 'Right, it's happened, let's just get on with it', and I think a lot of people felt the same.
And that was five years after winning the European Cup (which was something else I never realised the importance of at the time).
Absolutely and fair enough, but i'm sure you weren't thinking
'It won't be so bad if we go down, at least we'll be more competitive.'
Has anyone said that?
I wouldn't know where to begin to look for the thread, it was when we were in the shit under McCatpiss.
Posts along the line of 'It wouldn't be such a bad thing to go down, we can regroup and come back stronger.'
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I remember a number of years ago (probably during the DOL days) where a number of posters agreed that they would have swapped the situation at that time with the Division 3 days. Not quite the same, but I remember thinking it was bonkers at the time.
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...
Would it be fair to say that a lot of Villa fans back in 1987 had seen the club play in the lower divisions, so the impact of relegation wouldn't have been so shocking? I would say that there are a lot of supporters these days who have only ever seen Villa play in the top flight (and been fairly high placed for most of that time), so relegation for that generation of supporters would be a lot worse.
It was the fourth and worst relegation by some distance for me. Probably more my perception than anything.
They were all gut wrenching disappointments, but in 59 and especially 70 we had reason to believe we would soon be back. 67 should have been the worst by some distance but for some reason many still spoke of returning quickly as we had done before until reality set in. There may also have been an element of having spent a few seasons scraping safety maybe we'd got used to the idea. Most fans had only known what had been mostly a lower table team.
87 wasn't just relegation. It was stark reinforcement that the European Champions of a few years previously were no more, and then some. A bum outfit seemingly about to endure an ice age. Thank fuck for Graham Taylor.
There won't be a 2013 but we were very lucky there wasn't a 2012. That would have been very difficult to recover from.
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It's hard to recover from a Relagation these days, not saying it wasn't back then, but is there a bigger gulf these days between the top 2 leagues? You have to do what Newcastle did, and try and keep it together as much as possible and go for it straight away. Else, you end up like so many clubs, big clubs, like Leeds and Forest.
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Villa are a top flight club and one of the great names in football, full stop.
I can't think of any reason/situation to justify relegation. A club has to have basic standards and levels of expectation and lower tier football (as enjoyable as the novelty was for supporters in the past) is not acceptable for a club of our size and history - that's not meant in an arrogant way, by the way. We created the league and have spent over one hundred years in the top flight, for us to even accept a relegation as a positive flies in the face of all that history and tradition.
The occasions when we have suffered relegation are real low points for me and testimony to poor leadership/decision making at Boardroom level. (Particularly Doug Ellis's catastrophic handling of the club in the 1980's. European Champs to relegation non-entities in five years really took some doing.)
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An amazing one for me was how many, including the press as well as posters on here, swallowed Hollier's line of not being able to address problems with the defence until the close-season. How long did it take Lambert to change systems successfully? Three days?
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An amazing one for me was how many, including the press as well as posters on here, swallowed Hollier's line of not being able to address problems with the defence until the close-season. How long did it take Lambert to change systems successfully? Three days?
Mainly thanks to a whole different defence than Houllier had to work with.
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An amazing one for me was how many, including the press as well as posters on here, swallowed Hollier's line of not being able to address problems with the defence until the close-season. How long did it take Lambert to change systems successfully? Three days?
Wasn't Houllier just saying that to buy himself some time?
It looked to me like his "solution" would involve Warnock Dunne Collins leaving.
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An amazing one for me was how many, including the press as well as posters on here, swallowed Hollier's line of not being able to address problems with the defence until the close-season. How long did it take Lambert to change systems successfully? Three days?
Wasn't Houllier just saying that to buy himself some time?
It looked to me like his "solution" would involve Warnock Dunne Collins leaving.
Which would appear to be Lambert's as well.
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An amazing one for me was how many, including the press as well as posters on here, swallowed Hollier's line of not being able to address problems with the defence until the close-season. How long did it take Lambert to change systems successfully? Three days?
Wasn't Houllier just saying that to buy himself some time?
It looked to me like his "solution" would involve Warnock Dunne Collins leaving.
Which would appear to be Lambert's as well.
works for me!
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And me, i've no complaints about seeing the back of that lot.
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Funny how it took him minutes to change that defence for the worse.
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Funny how it took him minutes to change that defence for the worse.
The great defence that conceded 7 at Chelsea and 6 at Newcastle before Houllier was even here?
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Funny how it took him minutes to change that defence for the worse.
The great defence that conceded 7 at Chelsea and 6 at Newcastle before Houllier was even here?
That's using the facts a little selectively, in neither of those games were we able to play our first choice defence. It's a matter of record that we had a strong defensive record in MON's final season and the Chelsea game was an aberration. We were a defensive shambles the following season both before and during Houllier's time.
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The defence at Chelsea was Collins, Dunne, Warnock, Young. The defence at Newcastle was Dunne, Clark, Warnock, Young.
Not much off our first choice in either game.
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The defence at Chelsea was Collins, Dunne, Warnock, Young. The defence at Newcastle was Dunne, Clark, Warnock, Young.
Not much off our first choice in either game.
When I watched that 7-1 game at Chelsea, my over-riding thought was that this was a real one-off, with Deko having a blinding 25 minute purple patch. We were well worth the 1-1 score through the first half. Have to say I didn't at the time see it as a collapsing edifice of a defence (as it became).
And An amazing one for me was how many, including the press as well as posters on here, swallowed Hollier's line of not being able to address problems with the defence until the close-season
I just didn't get that comment from GHou! It seemed easy enough for a decent coach to re-set the defence more effectively; unless he and GMac had already given up on The Collins Gang.
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The defence at Chelsea was Collins, Dunne, Warnock, Young. The defence at Newcastle was Dunne, Clark, Warnock, Young.
Not much off our first choice in either game.
The point about the Chelsea game was that many on here were convinced that we'd be better by playing Young instead of Cuellar, we tried it and were a complete shambles. To take that result as representative of our defensive performances for that season is stretching credulity to breaking point.
Under Houllier, first, second, third and fourth choice defences were equally bad. The players were mostly to blame but, as manager, he has to take some of the responsibility.
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The defence at Chelsea was Collins, Dunne, Warnock, Young. The defence at Newcastle was Dunne, Clark, Warnock, Young.
Not much off our first choice in either game.
The point about the Chelsea game was that many on here were convinced that we'd be better by playing Young instead of Cuellar, we tried it and were a complete shambles. To take that result as representative of our defensive performances for that season is stretching credulity to breaking point.
Under Houllier, first, second, third and fourth choice defences were equally bad. The players were mostly to blame but, as manager, he has to take some of the responsibility.
So you agree that they were actually pretty much our strongest defences in both games rather than we weren't able to play our first choice defence?
And I agree that the manager has to take some of the blame, but not all of the blame as the defence had shown weaknesses from about Feb 2010 onwards. Coincidence that Lambert couldn't wait to bin most of them as well?
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I never took you for being this petty, PWS.
The Chelsea game was an aberration, using it as an illustration is meaningless. We were strong defensively that season, arguing anything else is just a distortion.
I've said all along that we were crap the following season, Houllier didn't create the problem but neither did he do much to fix it.
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Well, the common denominator in both those performances was this site's defensive saviour, Luke Young.
And I didn't want to take the Chelsea game out of context, but as you did that for me, weren't the defence the best in the country without those seven goals?,
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A big part of the problem for GH was, in my opinion, that some of the players had a different idea regarding suitable fitness levels to him. I seem to remember seeing a lot of complaints around the time about the players being overtrained. I think he spent the first few months trying to get the fitness levels up rather than trying to get the tactics right. It certainly didn't help that he came in with no option but to play what he had. I think Walker was a good example of what he wanted from players, as his fitness levels were much higher than the rest of the squad and made a big difference to us.
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I never took you for being this petty, PWS.
only with you ;)
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Surely, if it is unreasonable to take one performance as indicative of our defensive performances across the season, it is similarly unreasonable to be singling out the fact that the defence at Chelsea contained Luke Young as the reason we got spanked?
Maybe the biggest factor in our getting spanked was the fact we were playing away, at one of the strongest teams in the country?
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An amazing one for me was how many, including the press as well as posters on here, swallowed Hollier's line of not being able to address problems with the defence until the close-season.
Looking back, I think he'd decided he couldn't work with the experienced defenders we had, and wanted them out, and that's what the summer comment meant.
If you look at what Lambert has done, he has either moved them on (Warnock, Collins), binned them (Hutton, although I realise he wasn't at the club in Houllier's time) or lost them to injury (Dunne).
Also worth remembering, Lambert sussed the defence at the start of the season, having seen them the year before. Houllier was caught with a defence which, on the basis of the previous year, he thought he could work with, but didn't realise he couldn't till a fair way into the season, by which time, he was stuck for options.
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With an injured James Milner.
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I never took you for being this petty, PWS.
The Chelsea game was an aberration, using it as an illustration is meaningless. We were strong defensively that season, arguing anything else is just a distortion.
I've said all along that we were crap the following season, Houllier didn't create the problem but neither did he do much to fix it.
Commenting that in about 12 games we conceding 7 in one game and 6 in another is not being petty, it's just pointing out the defence had started showing signs it wasn't all we thought it was before GH was on the scene.
Easy with hindsight and to look back at results, but from about Feb 2010 until now our defence went from decent and just kept getting worse with very little improvement regardless of who was in charge.
Only now with a new back 5 is it starting to look steady again.
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An amazing one for me was how many, including the press as well as posters on here, swallowed Hollier's line of not being able to address problems with the defence until the close-season.
Looking back, I think he'd decided he couldn't work with the experienced defenders we had, and wanted them out, and that's what the summer comment meant.
If you look at what Lambert has done, he has either moved them on (Warnock, Collins), binned them (Hutton, although I realise he wasn't at the club in Houllier's time) or lost them to injury (Dunne).
Also worth remembering, Lambert sussed the defence at the start of the season, having seen them the year before. Houllier was caught with a defence which, on the basis of the previous year, he thought he could work with, but didn't realise he couldn't till a fair way into the season, by which time, he was stuck for options.
Houllier didn't have much chance to change it early though as he didn't arrive until the summer window was shut. So he was stuck with them whether he rated them or not.
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An amazing one for me was how many, including the press as well as posters on here, swallowed Hollier's line of not being able to address problems with the defence until the close-season.
Looking back, I think he'd decided he couldn't work with the experienced defenders we had, and wanted them out, and that's what the summer comment meant.
If you look at what Lambert has done, he has either moved them on (Warnock, Collins), binned them (Hutton, although I realise he wasn't at the club in Houllier's time) or lost them to injury (Dunne).
Also worth remembering, Lambert sussed the defence at the start of the season, having seen them the year before. Houllier was caught with a defence which, on the basis of the previous year, he thought he could work with, but didn't realise he couldn't till a fair way into the season, by which time, he was stuck for options.
Houllier didn't have much chance to change it early though as he didn't arrive until the summer window was shut. So he was stuck with them whether he rated them or not.
And my earlier point was that he could - with a bit of decent coaching - have changed the way that these experienced players defended; he didn't, which to me says he either wasn't able to influence their behaviours sufficiently or he'd decided it wasn't worth the effort.
Either way, he'd certainly decided to offload them all in the close-season.
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Only now with a new back 5 is it starting to look steady again.
But even then they managed to concede five goals as recently as a few weeks ago.
I don't think any of the defences that we're talking about were that catastrophic, but sometimes these results happen.
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I never took you for being this petty, PWS.
The Chelsea game was an aberration, using it as an illustration is meaningless. We were strong defensively that season, arguing anything else is just a distortion.
I've said all along that we were crap the following season, Houllier didn't create the problem but neither did he do much to fix it.
No distortion Chris, I think it was more a question of overall tactics.
To me that defence was always dodgy. What O'Neill did was shield it with Milner & Petrov's industry in the centre and both wingers - particularly Ashley Young - tracking back. All at a cost of attacking contribution. All that happened in the Chelsea game was a demonstration of how brittle we were when the opposition were allowed to get amongst the back four with regularity.
Houllier tried to play a more expansive game and discovered pretty quickly what the cost was.
McLeish went back to protection mode but no longer had the players to provide the protective shield.
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Only now with a new back 5 is it starting to look steady again.
But even then they managed to concede five goals as recently as a few weeks ago.
I don't think any of the defences that we're talking about were that catastrophic, but sometimes these results happen.
We didn't play a back 5 v city
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Exactly. Lambert didn't need to change the players. He did it with tactics and coaching, something Houllier had people believing was impossible.
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When I said back 5 I was including Guzan. Lambert uses no defenders that were regulars under Houllier. He bought 3 this summer, i'd class that as changing defenders.
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Only now with a new back 5 is it starting to look steady again.
But even then they managed to concede five goals as recently as a few weeks ago.
I don't think any of the defences that we're talking about were that catastrophic, but sometimes these results happen.
We didn't play a back 5 v city
Guzan
Lowton
Clark
Vlaar
Stevens
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Exactly. Lambert didn't need to change the players. He did it with tactics and coaching, something Houllier had people believing was impossible.
I'm no sure who you're answering here Percy but I don't get the logic. There are 3 key component to our upturn in defending for me:
1: The change of players in the defence. We seem less likely to make mistakes and, when there is a mistake we seem better able to recover from it.
2: We have a very vocal keeper who is very good at coming out and claiming the ball.
3: We have two really hard working midfielders who are providing a great shield.
Of those only the 3rd is tactical and I'd suggest the signing of Makoun (to play alongside petrov) was intended to address that.
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Exactly. Lambert didn't need to change the players. He did it with tactics and coaching, something Houllier had people believing was impossible.
I'm no sure who you're answering here Percy but I don't get the logic. There are 3 key component to our upturn in defending for me:
1: The change of players in the defence. We seem less likely to make mistakes and, when there is a mistake we seem better able to recover from it.
2: We have a very vocal keeper who is very good at coming out and claiming the ball.
3: We have two really hard working midfielders who are providing a great shield.
Of those only the 3rd is tactical and I'd suggest the signing of Makoun (to play alongside petrov) was intended to address that.
Makoun wasn't a hardworking defensive midfielder though was he?
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Exactly. Lambert didn't need to change the players. He did it with tactics and coaching, something Houllier had people believing was impossible.
I'm no sure who you're answering here Percy but I don't get the logic. There are 3 key component to our upturn in defending for me:
1: The change of players in the defence. We seem less likely to make mistakes and, when there is a mistake we seem better able to recover from it.
2: We have a very vocal keeper who is very good at coming out and claiming the ball.
3: We have two really hard working midfielders who are providing a great shield.
Of those only the 3rd is tactical and I'd suggest the signing of Makoun (to play alongside petrov) was intended to address that.
Makoun wasn't a hardworking defensive midfielder though was he?
Sorry to be really pedantic. But It doesn't say anything about defensive midfielders.
It says: "we have two really hard working midfielders".
As for Jean Deus I didn't see enough to confidently say what his ideal role in the team would've been.
He seemed to be good at retaining possession ala Westwood, his tackling however was nothing short of Delph-esque.
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My logic is that Lambert changed the defence (from a flat back four to three centre-halves) seamlessly and efficiently, within days. Unlike Houllier, he didn't need to change the players (much) or need a pre-season to drill them on the new formation.
My conclusion is that Houllier was full of shit, or a shit coach, or employed shit coaches. For him to give up on making our leaky defence more efficient at defending set-peices, as he admitted he did, was negligent. For people to agree with him that it couldn't be done was laughable.
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My logic is that Lambert changed the defence (from a flat back four to three centre-halves) within days. Didn't need to change the players (much), and didn't need a pre-season to drill them on the new formation.
Unlike Houllier.
Given how much he used it at Norwich, I'd be very, very surprised if Lambert hadn't trained them in the three at the back in pre-season.
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So are you agreeing with GH that problems such as these can only be addressed in pre-season? I mean, footballers are so busy these days, where would they find the time to work on formations and tactics and play snooker, shop AND go spit-roasting?
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So are you agreeing with GH that problems such as these can only be addressed in pre-season? I mean, footballers are so busy these days, where would they find the time to work on formations and tactics and play snooker, shop AND go spit-roasting?
Merely that they take time to train into. And that the players GH had at his disposal in defence were, shall we say, not exactly the most tactically intelligent you'll ever see.
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An important point as well is that our good defensive record under MON wasn't wholly to do with that back four. Our conservative style and shape meant we were very rarely counter-attacked against, and we looked pretty plodding going forward unless we ourselves could counter (which became increasingly rare). GH tried to change to a more stylish, pro-active style and it blew up in his face, not least because those defenders who had coped fine as blockers were nowhere near good enough to defend high up the pitch.
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I'd lay blame at both camps Houllier's and the players concerned.
Houllier for his indifference at improving/tightening up what he had defensively straight away.
The senior players for being uncooperative and disruptive enough, to make him decide he had to move them on.
It happened much the same way at Liverpool, he went in and within a year, people like Ince were on there way.
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I'd lay blame at both camps Houllier's and the players concerned.
Houllier for his indifference at improving/tightening up what he had defensively straight away.
The senior players for being uncooperative and disruptive enough, to make him decide he had to move them on.
It happened much the same way at Liverpool, he went in and within a year, people like Ince were on there way.
.msg2203068#msg2203068 date=1356032177]
I'd lay blame at both camps Houllier's and the players concerned.
Houllier for his indifference at improving/tightening up what he had defensively straight away.
The senior players for being uncooperative and disruptive enough, to make him decide he had to move them on.
It happened much the same way at Liverpool, he went in and within a year, people like Ince were on there way.
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I'd happily agree with all that.
I don't think you can have shit seasons like the last couple without everyone involved being a bit to blame somewhere along the line.
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Certainly would have been interesting to see who would have come and gone of Houllier had had a full pre-season. Warnock would have been straight out for a start.
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Only now with a new back 5 is it starting to look steady again.
But even then they managed to concede five goals as recently as a few weeks ago.
I don't think any of the defences that we're talking about were that catastrophic, but sometimes these results happen.
We didn't play a back 5 v city
Guzan
Lowton
Clark
Vlaar
Stevens
That doesn't make any sense. PWS said 'only now with a back 5' (ie the 5 defenders that we are only now playing). You then said that even then we conceded 5 v City. We didn't play 5 defenders v City!
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It doesn't made sense when you omit his word 'new'.
Suggesting a change from the five of Friedel, Dunne, Collins, Warnock and Young/Cuellar to what we have been using this season.
Considering he's already said that is what he meant I'm afraid it's you with the wrong end of the stick here.
When I said back 5 I was including Guzan.
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My issue with Houllier wasn't that I thought he was incompetent - his record clearly shows he knows what he's talking about.
It was just that he came across as such a patronising ****** from day one, and dropped a series of gaffes that ensured that when he really, really needed the support of the fans, there wasn't any goodwill left, we were all so sick to the tits of all that Liverpool bullshit.
Lambert's record - let's not kid ourselves - if you look at the league, is still poor, but people are prepared to give him time because we've seen way more in the way we play than we are actually getting in terms of points, and because he comes across as credible, knowledgeable, and dedicated to the job, rather than considering us lucky to have him, which was Houllier's approach.
I dont know how much of our picking up of form at the end of the Houllier year was down to injured players returning, or the fact that Houllier was off the scene and Gary Mac was running it, but it does make you wonder.
It has to be said, the Houllier and McLeish years were fucking terrible. It was truly gobsmacking how quickly we regressed.
The thing that made last year worse for me was that it all just felt so helpless, that we were doomed to misery while that miserable, negative git was at the club.
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My issue with Houllier wasn't that I thought he was incompetent - his record clearly shows he knows what he's talking about.
It was just that he came across as such a patronising c*** from day one, and dropped a series of gaffes that ensured that when he really, really needed the support of the fans, there wasn't any goodwill left, we were all so sick to the tits of all that Liverpool bullshit.
We ended our terrible home record against them at the end of that season.
Then sold them the goalscorer for £20 million, (who has been so rubbish since, he's been told to find a new club).
It can't all just be coincidence can it? ;)
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My issue with Houllier wasn't that I thought he was incompetent - his record clearly shows he knows what he's talking about.
It was just that he came across as such a patronising c*** from day one, and dropped a series of gaffes that ensured that when he really, really needed the support of the fans, there wasn't any goodwill left, we were all so sick to the tits of all that Liverpool bullshit.
We ended our terrible record against them at the end of that season.
Then sold them the goalscorer for £20 million, (who has been so rubbish since, he's been told to find a new club).
It can't all just be coincidence can it? ;)
I must say, that turned out quite well.
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Of course, the final nail in the coffin of Le Clown's 'can't change the defence' bollocks was the fact that he had changed it, from a ruthlessly efficient one into a shambles staffed by the same players.
He could have said 'I've looked at the stats, and you were brilliant at defending set-peices last season - just go back to what you were doing'.
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Crikey, he's left a scar with you that'll take a while to heal, hasn't he?
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I hated him more than TSM.
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Chris Smith, Chris Smith. They're moaning about ex-managers again
Your bitter divorcees line is required.
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the one about mascara and lambrini...
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Can we do Gregory next? He still gets on my tits.
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So Percy, you are on the side of players who decided to get drunk and push Sid over a table?
I'm not dropping Houllier of all responsibility as they obviously didn't like him or his methods but the players did themselves no favours by deciding to not play to the same abilities they could. Also as mentioned we also lost the industry of Milner in midfield to shield the same back four.
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So Percy, you are on the side of players who decided to get drunk and push Sid over a table?
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No.
It was that C.unt Captain Beaky.
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Or players who rebelled at being asked to actually train, and to work in training at that. No, Houllier's time with us was a disaster, in many ways, but those players were and are utter wankers.
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Houllier was not even a glint in Lerner's eye when Dunne decided to come back for summer training twice the size. Neither MON or Macdonald seemed to do anything about that so GH had to try to get him into shape and he didn't like it.
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Agreed about the players, but the bullshit about defending set-peices was him talking to us like we're fucking idiots.
The Liverpool thing was him treating our club like shit.
The Man City thing was cowardice and surrender, which I'll forgive him for as he's French.
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An important point as well is that our good defensive record under MON wasn't wholly to do with that back four. Our conservative style and shape meant we were very rarely counter-attacked against, and we looked pretty plodding going forward unless we ourselves could counter (which became increasingly rare). GH tried to change to a more stylish, pro-active style and it blew up in his face, not least because those defenders who had coped fine as blockers were nowhere near good enough to defend high up the pitch.
That's how I saw it.
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By Christmas that year Carew Gabby and Emile had amassed two league goals between them.
Two!
Both of them were Emile's; in games we ended up winning. Maybe if we'd been scoring more freely,
we wouldn't have noticed quite how poor we'd become at the back.
As amusing as the ex marriage analogy is, this whole thing is a bit like picking scabs isn't it?
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For a few games Emile had something of a renaissance under Houllier. Then he was having a great game at home and managed to get himself sent off. When he came back after that he was shit again.
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For a few games Emile had something of a renaissance under Houllier. Then he was having a great game at home and managed to get himself sent off. When he came back after that he was shit again.
I just remember his bullet header against Wolves. the sending off was it against Sunderland?
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For a few games Emile had something of a renaissance under Houllier. Then he was having a great game at home and managed to get himself sent off. When he came back after that he was shit again.
I thought he managed to get injured after setting up a goal. But I also try not to remember too much of the last two years.
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My abiding memory of the Houllier year (apart from all the off the pitch gaffes like not even being able to start the job for 2 weeks and waving to Liverpool fans) was playing Young in the hole all year.
Never understood it, Young wasn't even that great at it as he rarely scored from open play and didn't really tuck in as a third central midfielder when we were defending which we needed post Milner. Bit of a waste of his last year here not getting in those great crosses.
I also admit at the time I defended the back 4 as they still had credit in the bank from the great record the previous year but in hindsight Houllier got that spot on as they were as bad under TSM who I thought might organise them a little better.
Another solution would've been to play Cuellar a little more in central defence as despite all the crap games and ill discipline it's incredible to think Collins and Dunne remained our first choice defensive combination for the majority of 10/11 and 11/12.
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I also admit at the time I defended the back 4 as they still had credit in the bank from the great record the previous year but in hindsight Houllier got that spot on as they were as bad under TSM who I thought might organise them a little better.
I very much disagree with that. When a new manager comes in and inherites one of the best defences in the league, he needs to be pretty confident in his vision to say 'scrap that, I can do it better'.
He's going to be judged on the end result of that and what he did with the defence clearly wasn't positive. The fact that McLeish messed things up just as much is no vindication of what Houllier tried to do either.
I do still think Houllier given time would have been alright (better than McLeish, worse than Lambert) but risking relegation just because he didn't like the way that a perfectly solid defence was organised wasn't the best way to do things.
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My abiding memory of the Houllier year (apart from all the off the pitch gaffes like not even being able to start the job for 2 weeks and waving to Liverpool fans) was playing Young in the hole all year.
Never understood it, Young wasn't even that great at it as he rarely scored from open play and didn't really tuck in as a third central midfielder when we were defending which we needed post Milner. Bit of a waste of his last year here not getting in those great crosses.
I always saw that as a vain attempt to caress his ego and charm him into staying.
See also: giving him the captaincy.
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I very much disagree with that. When a new manager comes in and inherites one of the best defences in the league, he needs to pretty confident in his vision to say 'scrap that, I can do it better'.
He's going to be judged on the end result of that and what he did with the defence clearly wasn't positive. The fact that McLeish messed things up just as much is no vindication of what Houllier tried to do either.
I do still think Houllier given time would have been alright (better than McLeish, worse than Lambert) but risking relegation just because he didn't like the way that a perfectly solid defence was organised wasn't the best way to do things.
But that isn't taking into account Dunne doubling in size or Collins and Warnock being found out for what they were, very limited footballers playing above their abilities for a time under MON. (Something that MON could do quite well). Under a third (fourth?) manager now, Collins is still dropping similar clangers at Wet Spam where he lets players go, is easily pulled out of position or heads the ball only to the edge of the box for an attacker to pick up.
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Agreed. They are limited players unless they are in a system that seems to suit them as a group, playing in a specific way.
So if you come in fresh, you play them in that way that works until you have a better way. Then ditch them. Rather than ditching them and realising that you don't really know what to do next.
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Agreed. They are limited players unless they are in a system that seems to suit them as a group, playing in a specific way.
So if you come in fresh, you play them in that way that works until you have a better way. Then ditch them. Rather than ditching them and realising that you don't really know what to do next.
Managing for the short term and the long term?!
It will never catch on!
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Agreed. They are limited players unless they are in a system that seems to suit them as a group, playing in a specific way.
So if you come in fresh, you play them in that way that works until you have a better way. Then ditch them. Rather than ditching them and realising that you don't really know what to do next.
I think Houllier must have been a bit surprised at both the lack of professionalism and the lack of intelligence - in every sense. I agree that he really didn't react well when the players didn't respond to his methods, which does indicate that his methods were somewhat one-eyed - but if you're going to be one-eyed in your approach to football, I for one would rather being one-eyed like Houllier more than MON or TSM.
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Houllier's biggest problem was down to his belief on the required fitness levels (if you look through his record his players have always been fit and have always had a good attitude to training). I'm fairly sure he arrived expecting the squad to be much better prepared than they were and he decided that addressing that was the key issue. That was probably a big mistake as it meant the defensive displays were poor for most of the season and it probably led, indirectly, to the number of injuries we saw in that autumn.
However it's a decision that he wouldn't have had to make if he'd come in to the club much sooner, starting the job in early september was always going to make it very difficult for him that year, particularly given the complete lack of continuity with coaches, etc. There was literally no one at the club who'd had any day to day dealings with the coaching/tactics of the first team squad so 'just do what you were doing' wasn't really an option.
If he'd not had the health issues I believe the following summer would've been key as he'd have got the right type of players for what he wanted, the fitness levels would've been much closer to what he wanted and he'd have had chance to work on tactics a lot more. I genuinely believe he would have turned out a good choice if he was still here now.
TSM I have no such regard for, he had a full summer with a squad of players suited to his football and he made us go backwards.
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Exactly. Lambert didn't need to change the players. He did it with tactics and coaching, something Houllier had people believing was impossible.
I'm no sure who you're answering here Percy but I don't get the logic. There are 3 key component to our upturn in defending for me:
1: The change of players in the defence. We seem less likely to make mistakes and, when there is a mistake we seem better able to recover from it.
2: We have a very vocal keeper who is very good at coming out and claiming the ball.
3: We have two really hard working midfielders who are providing a great shield.
Of those only the 3rd is tactical and I'd suggest the signing of Makoun (to play alongside petrov) was intended to address that.
Sorry Paul - I'm with Percy on this one.
Because football is not an individual game.
We could list personnel who kept clean sheets and personnel who leaked loads and many of the names would be the same. The real upturn in Villa's fortunes has come about on the training pitches at BMH - the team are playing to a system as a team. They all know what each other are doing and cover for each other. The same personnel who thumped Liverpool last weekend were being derided as not good enough by many on here not so long ago - yet our second goal revealed the depth of the change for the better that Lambert and Culverhouse have fostered.
Same faces - different result.
Of course - individual brilliance will always find a place - but it is about balance and compatibility as well - hence Benteke not Bent.
And while we may not be the finished article - I have seen mainly good signs from Villa this season - even in the defeats (bar Southampton).
Lambert has shown that he has a lovely big pair of boll**ks in dropping Shay Given, Darren Bent, and now Stephen Ireland. And he's done it for the good of the team as a whole and the philosophy he seeks to cultivate at VP. The shift to a back 3 has not only shored up the defence - it has seen us score more goals in a week than in the previous two months. The said lovely pair became even more swollen and metallic after Benteke's early wasteful displays. Lambert saw the kid would come good and laid his neck on the line to keep faith with him. He was right to do so.
Lambert is more than a motivator or a spotter of talent - he is a shrewd tactician - at Norwich he was lauded for often changing formations 2 or 3 times in a single game - and it lifted them to their highest position ever. It won't always work - as goals change games - but I for one feel hugely optimistic about this season and hopefully the many more to come under the guidance of Lambert and Co.
If we as fans and supporters can show half the faith Paul Lambert has - then the dark days are over - and the bright days are here.
UTV
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It isn't every day you read the phrase "lovely big pair of bollocks" on H & V.
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Exactly. Lambert didn't need to change the players. He did it with tactics and coaching, something Houllier had people believing was impossible.
I'm no sure who you're answering here Percy but I don't get the logic. There are 3 key component to our upturn in defending for me:
1: The change of players in the defence. We seem less likely to make mistakes and, when there is a mistake we seem better able to recover from it.
2: We have a very vocal keeper who is very good at coming out and claiming the ball.
3: We have two really hard working midfielders who are providing a great shield.
Of those only the 3rd is tactical and I'd suggest the signing of Makoun (to play alongside petrov) was intended to address that.
Sorry Paul - I'm with Percy on this one.
Because football is not an individual game.
We could list personnel who kept clean sheets and personnel who leaked loads and many of the names would be the same. The real upturn in Villa's fortunes has come about on the training pitches at BMH - the team are playing to a system as a team. They all know what each other are doing and cover for each other. The same personnel who thumped Liverpool last weekend were being derided as not good enough by many on here not so long ago - yet our second goal revealed the depth of the change for the better that Lambert and Culverhouse have fostered.
Same faces - different result.
Of course - individual brilliance will always find a place - but it is about balance and compatibility as well - hence Benteke not Bent.
And while we may not be the finished article - I have seen mainly good signs from Villa this season - even in the defeats (bar Southampton).
Lambert has shown I am a twat in dropping Shay Given, Darren Bent, and now Stephen Ireland. And he's done it for the good of the team as a whole and the philosophy he seeks to cultivate at VP. The shift to a back 3 has not only shored up the defence - it has seen us score more goals in a week than in the previous two months. The said lovely pair became even more swollen and metallic after Benteke's early wasteful displays. Lambert saw the kid would come good and laid his neck on the line to keep faith with him. He was right to do so.
Lambert is more than a motivator or a spotter of talent - he is a shrewd tactician - at Norwich he was lauded for often changing formations 2 or 3 times in a single game - and it lifted them to their highest position ever. It won't always work - as goals change games - but I for one feel hugely optimistic about this season and hopefully the many more to come under the guidance of Lambert and Co.
If we as fans and supporters can show half the faith Paul Lambert has - then the dark days are over - and the bright days are here.
UTV
Yes training is hugely important and yes it's a team game but individual players are still hugely important and the attitudes of the players to the manager and his techniques are more important still.
The simplest break down is that GH thought our defense was full of overpaid wasters who had no place at the club and was quite honest in identifying that fixing things required him to replace those players with people who could play his system and who would accept his training methods, that's what he meant by solving things in the summer.
I'm not saying GH was perfect by any stretch but there were mitigating factors to some of the problems.
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Houllier's biggest problem was he followed MON. We were used to 6th so being in a relegation battle straight away was a huge shock and meant the majority failed to get behind him.
If the appointments had been reversed and we'd appointed TSM straight after MON (remember he'd just guided SHA to 9th) I'm sure Houllier would've got a lot more time and patience just like Lambert is getting.
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It isn't every day you read the phrase "lovely big pair of bollocks" on H & V.
It isn't, but all traditions start somewhere.
While we're here can I just say that I imagine Vlaar has a beautiful shiny bellend?
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It isn't every day you read the phrase "lovely big pair of bollocks" on H & V.
It isn't, but all traditions start somewhere.
While we're here can I just say that I imagine Vlaar has a beautiful shiny bellend?
No.
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My logic is that Lambert changed the defence (from a flat back four to three centre-halves) seamlessly and efficiently, within days. Unlike Houllier, he didn't need to change the players (much) or need a pre-season to drill them on the new formation.
My conclusion is that Houllier was full of shit, or a shit coach, or employed shit coaches. For him to give up on making our leaky defence more efficient at defending set-peices, as he admitted he did, was negligent. For people to agree with him that it couldn't be done was laughable.
That was always the problem with Houllier, he was full of bullshit. On the day he signed for us I was warned by a few Liverpool (and United!) fans that Houllier was full of bullshit which was generally given credibility because he had a certain intellectual sophistication about him that any 'track-suited manager' who came out with similar guffe simply wouldn't have.
I really disliked Houllier. He nearly always hung our (young) players in the media and never accepted any responsibility himself. For me this is almost as bad as O'Dreary's and, to a lesser extent, TSM's belittling of the club and players. Houllier had damn all respect for Aston Villa and in his first week said that between 7th-12th was our natural place in the English league. Given that a few months earlier we had been pissed off at failing to advance on sixth, he was showing a clear disregard to both our players and supporters.
I am always surprised at the way people here are prepared to defend GH. One thing that always gets mentioned is the apparent 'top six form' we showed towards the end of the season. Lets remember we spent the guts of £30m in January and were still fighting relegation in April with some dodgy performances.
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Absolutely.
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well Lamberts plan didnt work well today ;)
results will be good and results will be bad but posters have the right to have a moan on here when its a bad day , like today and congratulate the players when they play well like last week. Thats why we have excellent forums like this.
anyway Merry Christmas
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well Lamberts plan didnt work well today ;)
results will be good and results will be bad but posters have the right to have a moan on here when its a bad day , like today and congratulate the players when they play well like last week. Thats why we have excellent forums like this.
anyway Merry Christmas
Hear Hear and the 'better fan than you' argument shouldn't have to always rear it's head. Here's to bouncing back and stuffing Spurs!!
Happy Christmas!
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Today was diabolical, but provided we learn from it in the right way it will be a useful if painful lesson.
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One major concern is that when things don't go our way, we just seem to crumble and that is down to a lack of experience.
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One major concern is that when things don't go our way, we just seem to crumble and that is down to a lack of experience.
We need someone to organise and captain the team when things are going badly- leadership was lacking today and I hope we bring in 2 or 3 experienced battlers with some quality .
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You're only as good as your spine. Ours needs bigger players, with a physical presence and exprience.
We need more attacking flair for sure, but getting Vlaar back, a unit to play with him and some bruiser in midfield is vital.
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One major concern is that when things don't go our way, we just seem to crumble and that is down to a lack of experience.
That's a good point.
Defensively we haven't been that bad recently keeping a decent number of clean sheets yet we have the worst goal difference in the league.
Aside from today, we've had four bad defensive halfs of football, first half against Everton when we were battered, ditto second half against Southampton and the second half against two Manchester clubs.
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You were saying John?
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You were saying John?
my thoughts on Villa are exactly the same as they were last week, they dont change from a good game to a bad game,
lamberts way is the best way, but it will take time, never said any different
Anyway hows New York ?
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I tell you what winds me up is when were playing ok and everyone seems to be pulling in the same direction THEN we go tits up and one of the first things you see is Lerner out.
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The worst thing for me is that after we'd improved our goal difference relative to the other relegation candidates, in one fell swoop it's worse again.
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That's the way it's been over the last few years, one step forward followed by two massive steps back. I hope this dosen't set us back as we have crucial games for the next month and we need to get some wins.
Said it in the match thread but we must be the only team in world football who follow a great 3-1 away win by losing our next game 8-0.
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This is the issue - everyone in their heart of hearts knows that a win here, an unbeaten 'streak' there is really papering over the cracks of what a painfully young and inexperienced and not necessarily talented squad this is. We are all going to be sweating on our survival right up until May I suspect. Our next month is literally going to make or break our season. Spuds, Wigan, Swansea, Ipswich, Bradford someone else, Smethwick, Bradford. Fakin hell what a month.
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I did not here any things on hear, but I read some things.
I think PL knows a thing or two about a thing or two and will ship thingummy out in the window an get wossaname in.
When Max Bygraves wailed "Things ain't what they used to be", he wasn't kidding around but he was a Cockney Cant.
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just some of things i've heard on here in the last few weeks -
Lamberts plan is not working, we are worse than last season
we need to find a way of playing Bent, otherwise we are definitely going down
the young players are not good enough, most are championship level players
i hate to say this but Mcliesh was doing a better job
if Randy doesnt back Lambert heavily in Jan and bring in experience, we are doomed
we need to bring back NRC to give us some grip in midfield
i know that i'm posting this after a good win against Liverpool, and there is a long way to go,
but i havent made any of those points up, they are genuinly what i've been reading on here by some posters, and in my opinion are the biggest load of bollocks i have read since i joined the site seven years ago
only in my opinion obviously
does not look so clever now, does it
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This is the issue - everyone in their heart of hearts knows that a win here, an unbeaten 'streak' there is really papering over the cracks of what a painfully young and inexperienced and not necessarily talented squad this is.
Maybe this thrashing has happened at the right time to ensure some money is coughed up.
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This is the issue - everyone in their heart of hearts knows that a win here, an unbeaten 'streak' there is really papering over the cracks of what a painfully young and inexperienced and not necessarily talented squad this is.
Maybe this thrashing has happened at the right time to ensure some money is coughed up.
Was thinking the same, lets hope that Paul and randy are preparing to spend the coffers early in jan and not in a months time, 2 or 3 quality additions and a couple of departures would be ideal.
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just some of things i've heard on here in the last few weeks -
Lamberts plan is not working, we are worse than last season
we need to find a way of playing Bent, otherwise we are definitely going down
the young players are not good enough, most are championship level players
i hate to say this but Mcliesh was doing a better job
if Randy doesnt back Lambert heavily in Jan and bring in experience, we are doomed
we need to bring back NRC to give us some grip in midfield
i know that i'm posting this after a good win against Liverpool, and there is a long way to go,
but i havent made any of those points up, they are genuinly what i've been reading on here by some posters, and in my opinion are the biggest load of bollocks i have read since i joined the site seven years ago
only in my opinion obviously
does not look so clever now, does it
Hilarious.
He needs to explain.
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just some of things i've heard on here in the last few weeks -
Lamberts plan is not working, we are worse than last season
we need to find a way of playing Bent, otherwise we are definitely going down
the young players are not good enough, most are championship level players
i hate to say this but Mcliesh was doing a better job
if Randy doesnt back Lambert heavily in Jan and bring in experience, we are doomed
we need to bring back NRC to give us some grip in midfield
i know that i'm posting this after a good win against Liverpool, and there is a long way to go,
but i havent made any of those points up, they are genuinly what i've been reading on here by some posters, and in my opinion are the biggest load of bollocks i have read since i joined the site seven years ago
only in my opinion obviously
does not look so clever now, does it
Hilarious.
He needs to explain.
no need to explain, the very last line says its my opinion, and still is