Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Legion on October 26, 2012, 02:18:56 PM
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Aston Villa have become the first Premier League club to publicly back a new campaign for trials of standing areas for fans in top-flight and Championship matches. (http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/premier-league-villa-offer-trial-standing-areas-123828820.html)
The campaign has been launched by the Football Supporters' Federation (FSF) and with Birmingham MP Roger Godsiff. Aston Villa and Peterborough have both given their support to calls for the Government to allow "small-scale trials of safe standing areas" and have volunteered to host a trial.
Villa chief executive Paul Faulkner said: "We have had a number of good discussions and meetings with the FSF over the past 12 months and fully support their campaign to allow small-scale trials of safe standing areas at grounds.
"Whenever we have discussed the topic with our fans we've found almost unanimous support for such a trial, and the concept of giving fans the choice to decide to either sit or stand at a game.
"We believe Villa Park could be a potential venue for such a trial, and would like the opportunity to progress the plans further with the wider support of the football community in this country."
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My God,I hope this happens
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That's a re-hash from earlier in the year.
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And the first three comments are from Twat City.
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Hope this does happen, but I don't believe it will...
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Yes they are Dave,and I cant understand why people are against CHOICE,tbf this ,to my knowledge is the first time the club have publicly endorsed it .
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Yes they are Dave,and I cant understand why people are against CHOICE,tbf this ,to my knowledge is the first time the club have publicly endorsed it .
They definitely said the same earlier in the year, because one of the Hillsborough Justice leaders came back with some strange quote about how it's alright in Germany but they don't count or something similar.
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I have to admit that the standing areas in German stadia look like they generate a terrific atmosphere.
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Watching videos of Dortmund fans on terraces makes me jealous, there fans are phenomenal
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and this it what I miss,bouncing up and down on the top right watching the villa win...
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Yes they are Dave,and I cant understand why people are against CHOICE,tbf this ,to my knowledge is the first time the club have publicly endorsed it .
They definitely said the same earlier in the year, because one of the Hillsborough Justice leaders came back with some strange quote about how it's alright in Germany but they don't count or something similar.
Yes, Margaret Aspinall. Needless to say what she's gone through over the years as a result of the Hillsborough Disaster and the ensuing cover-up, is nothing short of a disgrace. And I hope she can get justice for her son.
But ask her about the concept of Safe-Standing, and all you get from her is noise. Bizarre noise. She just will not entertain the idea of standing areas in the top two divisions. Screams the same outdated and indeed disproved arguments every time she features on 5Live or is quoted in the media. Why they ask her for her thoughts I don't know. Anne Williams lost her son Kevin, yet she's far more open minded about it. Not sure of the exact quote but I remember reading she'd said something along the lines of: "standing never killed anybody, cages and treating people like animals did." Amen.
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Have you read the comments on that piece? There really are some stupid people in the world. Apparently we'd be dishonouring the memory of "the 96". For some reason, I can't imagine we'll have the Redscouse singing that ridiculous "no respect" back at us....
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Bringing standing back would be ace, and would be one small victory in the war against football turning shite.
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Agreed Risso.
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I can understand the Hillsborough families' opposition to this. When caught up in the emotion of losing someone you don't neccessarily think completely rationally.
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I actually think it's more dangerous to stand in a seated area, I've actually witnessed my mate nearly break his neck by falling over and banging it against a chair, he was nearly paralysed and he would have been fine if he was stood
I would be behind this 1000000000%
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Here's what Margaret Aspinall said:
"The Hillsborough Family Support Group are totally against any form of standing whatsoever. We are absolutely against it and always will be. Our football clubs should remain all-seater stadiums. People always say they have standing areas in Germany, but we don't play any part over what happens in that country - we just believe there's no such thing as safe standing in this country. We will not be encouraging the government to change the law."
If you take her words at face value and forget if you can her role in the Justice campaign, she comes across as the type of extreme reactionary you'd normally take no notice of. She's not accepting any other argument, no evidence or any possibility that a situation could ever change.
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in the comments sectoion someone has a dig at fatty faulks on us getting relegated, poor sod cant do anything right :P
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Bringing back standing would be a progressive step, leading to a much better atmosphere, cheaper tickets for those areas and who knows maybe even bigger crowds (potentially anyway).
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in the comments sectoion someone has a dig at fatty faulks on us getting relegated, poor sod cant do anything right :P
I know it is a long way off, but I personally would like to see the bottom tiers of the Holte End and the North Stand being safe standing areas (could even go ahead with the redevelopment of the North Stand to include a safe standing area). With all the recent revelations, I just can't see how bringing in safe standing would be disrepectful to the 96 people who died at Hillsborough.
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Any details yet on what form this trial will take?
What part of the ground? How large an area? Will the construction of the area be based on the German model? When and for how long until its results are reviewed? Oh yes, and the little matter of pricing?
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Any details yet on what form this trail will take?
What part of the ground? How large an area? Will the construction of the area be based on the German model? When and for how long until its results are reviewed? Oh yes, and the little matter of pricing?
When it was mentioned before the idea was for a small part of the Holte End near the Trinity Rd stand.
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If they do come back, I hope we don't get all that netting/fencing around them.
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If they do come back, I hope we don't get all that netting/fencing around them.
Now that would be disrespectful to the 96.
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Here's what Margaret Aspinall said:
"The Hillsborough Family Support Group are totally against any form of standing whatsoever. We are absolutely against it and always will be. Our football clubs should remain all-seater stadiums. People always say they have standing areas in Germany, but we don't play any part over what happens in that country - we just believe there's no such thing as safe standing in this country. We will not be encouraging the government to change the law."
If you take her words at face value and forget if you can her role in the Justice campaign, she comes across as the type of extreme reactionary you'd normally take no notice of. She's not accepting any other argument, no evidence or any possibility that a situation could ever change.
Obviously your heart goes out to her, her family and all the others involved. Safe standing is just that safe! You can't disregard the facts from Germany where I have not heard one accident/incident in one of these areas.
It really is time that fans in this country start sticking up for themselves, over this issue plus ticket costs and the fact the football fans are treated like criminals purely for going to watch there team.
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Here's what Margaret Aspinall said:
"The Hillsborough Family Support Group are totally against any form of standing whatsoever. We are absolutely against it and always will be. Our football clubs should remain all-seater stadiums. People always say they have standing areas in Germany, but we don't play any part over what happens in that country - we just believe there's no such thing as safe standing in this country. We will not be encouraging the government to change the law."
If you take her words at face value and forget if you can her role in the Justice campaign, she comes across as the type of extreme reactionary you'd normally take no notice of. She's not accepting any other argument, no evidence or any possibility that a situation could ever change.
Obviously your heart goes out to her, her family and all the others involved. Safe standing is just that safe! You can't disregard the facts from Germany where I have not heard one accident/incident in one of these areas.
It really is time that fans in this country start sticking up for themselves, over this issue plus ticket costs and the fact the football fans are treated like criminals purely for going to watch there team.
Many years ago Simon Page (who should get off his arse and start writing for us again) said in relation to this same subject that anyone who is an expert based on personal experience should be treated in exactly the same way as someone whose expertise has been gained through qualification and acquired knowledge, namely their opinions should be subject to scrutiny and challenged where appropriate. I echo your thoughts that my heart goes out to Mrs Aspinall and I have nothing but total respect for her work with the HJC, but what she says on this subject is tantamount to sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "NO NO NO!!!" all the time.
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I would have thought that the lower North Stand would have been the most obvious choice for trialling safe standing. Wasn't it standing in a previous era, rather than the holte, which was constructed as an all-seater stand?
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Also Margaret Aspinall:
"There is no place for standing in modern football and I cannot comprehend why people want to go back to how it was in the 1980s.
It is both insulting and insensitive to suggest that it is a good idea, particularly knowing there has never been any accountability for what happened at Hillsborough in April 1989.
I have had the argument about what happens in Germany thrown at me before, when people have raised the idea about bringing back standing in England.
Well, what people in another country do is their own affair.
We have had two tragedies at grounds with standing terraces in Great Britain - 96 football fans never returned home from Hillsborough, 66 lives were lost at Ibrox.
When I talk about never bringing standing back to football grounds here, I am thinking about my children and grandchildren going to games.
They should never be put in a position of how it was in the 1980s."
Can't talk to some people....
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Here's what Margaret Aspinall said:
"The Hillsborough Family Support Group are totally against any form of standing whatsoever. We are absolutely against it and always will be. Our football clubs should remain all-seater stadiums. People always say they have standing areas in Germany, but we don't play any part over what happens in that country - we just believe there's no such thing as safe standing in this country. We will not be encouraging the government to change the law."
If you take her words at face value and forget if you can her role in the Justice campaign, she comes across as the type of extreme reactionary you'd normally take no notice of. She's not accepting any other argument, no evidence or any possibility that a situation could ever change.
Obviously your heart goes out to her, her family and all the others involved. Safe standing is just that safe! You can't disregard the facts from Germany where I have not heard one accident/incident in one of these areas.
It really is time that fans in this country start sticking up for themselves, over this issue plus ticket costs and the fact the football fans are treated like criminals purely for going to watch there team.
Many years ago Simon Page (who should get off his arse and start writing for us again) said in relation to this same subject that anyone who is an expert based on personal experience should be treated in exactly the same way as someone whose expertise has been gained through qualification and acquired knowledge, namely their opinions should be subject to scrutiny and challenged where appropriate. I echo your thoughts that my heart goes out to Mrs Aspinall and I have nothing but total respect for her work with the HJC, but what she says on this subject is tantamount to sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "NO NO NO!!!" all the time.
Spot on. Even the Taylor report doesn't blame standing for the incident.
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(http://i3.birminghammail.net/incoming/article6826.ece/BINARY/aston-villa-stands-splash-587928979.jpg)
That's where it would be. The pilot.
265 seats there currently.
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I have never fell sleep at a game standing where as....
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Well i'm in favour of it, so well done for the Villa
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I think it is funny how the mail describes it as 'audacious'. I can't really see the risk myself.
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Also Margaret Aspinall:
"There is no place for standing in modern football and I cannot comprehend why people want to go back to how it was in the 1980s.
It is both insulting and insensitive to suggest that it is a good idea, particularly knowing there has never been any accountability for what happened at Hillsborough in April 1989.
I have had the argument about what happens in Germany thrown at me before, when people have raised the idea about bringing back standing in England.
Well, what people in another country do is their own affair.
We have had two tragedies at grounds with standing terraces in Great Britain - 96 football fans never returned home from Hillsborough, 66 lives were lost at Ibrox.
When I talk about never bringing standing back to football grounds here, I am thinking about my children and grandchildren going to games.
They should never be put in a position of how it was in the 1980s."
Can't talk to some people....
Correct me if I'm wrong but neither of the disasters were due to standing. one was due to overcrowding in a stairwell and the other due to poor construction of the stand.
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Interesting debate on Talksport this evening.
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Interesting debate on Talksport this evening.
There's a phrase you don't hear very often.
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What time?
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I would have thought that the lower North Stand would have been the most obvious choice for trialling safe standing. Wasn't it standing in a previous era, rather than the holte, which was constructed as an all-seater stand?
When the Holte was rebuilt it was built as an all seater, the North Stand was rebuilt and had standing at the front with a big fence to house visiting supporters.
The Holte used to house up to 28,000 people who used to happily enjoy themselves. Those of us old enough to remember what used to happen when we scored a goal and you could suddenly find yourself surging forward and amazingly you used to end up back standing next to your mates. I never saw anybody get hurt. Then they started to put fences up and behaviour got worse.
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I don't see how standing in an area designed for standing is less safe than standing in an are designed for sitting.
To me the argument is as much about having the option of sitting down as it is about choosing to stand.
I hope we get the chance to go through with the trial.
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What time?
4-6.
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havent heard any scousers who are in favour yet, both Mickey Quin and Alvin Martin were against, so not expecting many to be positive for obvious reasons,
but i agree with what a previous poster wrote, it wasnt terracing that killed anyone it was the fences that penned people in and treating fans like cattle that caused it
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As a Manchester City supporter I'd love to see you blaze a trail on this for football fans everywhere. We've had a safe standing campaign for years but unless the club backs it, there's no chance. For me, it's inevitable and economics will eventually make it the only way forward. Good luck with it.
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This is still a long way off.
Rightly or wrongly, terracing at football stadia is intrinsicly linked with the Hillsborough disaster in a large chunk of the public's mind. The Taylor Report pretty much guaranteed that by its main recommendation following Hillsborough being the outlawing of terracing where large crowds occur (ie the top two divisions). This is therefore a political issue and I just don't think there's any political appetite to risk rocking the boat with a public sceptical of standing areas.
Secondly there's the economic argument. Football clubs spent a fortune converting stadia or building new ones to comply with the laws of less than 20 years ago. They're only going to agree to spend more money converting them again if they can see a return on the investment. This will only be the case where they're short of capacity now and can see terracing as a way to get more people in cheaply (not many clubs), but this almost certainly won't involve reducing tickets prices for those areas as there will be demand and the clubs will want to recoup the investment.
Anyway, are there really that many people who don't go to football matches because they are forced to sit down? Thinking as a businessman (as almost all football club owners are), if it's just a case of people who currently go and sit, but would prefer to stand, what's in it for the clubs?
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I would have thought that the lower North Stand would have been the most obvious choice for trialling safe standing. Wasn't it standing in a previous era, rather than the holte, which was constructed as an all-seater stand?
When the Holte was rebuilt it was built as an all seater, the North Stand was rebuilt and had standing at the front with a big fence to house visiting supporters.
The Holte used to house up to 28,000 people who used to happily enjoy themselves. Those of us old enough to remember what used to happen when we scored a goal and you could suddenly find yourself surging forward and amazingly you used to end up back standing next to your mates. I never saw anybody get hurt. Then they started to put fences up and behaviour got worse.
When the North Stand replaced The Witton End, the terracing at the front was split between the Villa and the visitors, wasnt there big sheets of perspex or something to make the divide? Can anyone remember if the stand was actually built with fences or were they added later?
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This is a strange world. Most away fans including us stand when there are good seats provided to make a point. I remember being with our supporters in the safe standing area at Werder Bremen and what did most of our supporters do? They sat with their arse on one safety barrier with their feet on the one in front!
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This is a strange world. Most away fans including us stand when there are good seats provided to make a point. I remember being with our supporters in the safe standing area at Werder Bremen and what did most of our supporters do? They sat with their arse on one safety barrier with their feet on the one in front!
When there used to be an allocation of seats at away games, with standing being pay on the day, there was nobody standing in the seats. When we had the option of standing or seats at
Bristol Rovers last year, they all stood in the seats.
You can't have it both ways. Pay to stand: stand. Pay to sit: fucking sit down. Even last week at Craven Cottage, people had arranged to sit near the front due to being unable to stand. What happened? Nearly everyone in the front row stood up. I must admit, they did look very clever.
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It's not going to happen, at least not for a very long time. Regardless of the evidence for and against, the political risk would be massive. Every time a game kicked off at a ground where standing had been reintroduced the government that made the decision would be crossing its fingers.
It seems to me that the fans' argument that it would make the atmosphere more like the old days is the one sure thing guaranteed to make the government oppose it, because that's the last thing they want.
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It's not going to happen, at least not for a very long time. Regardless of the evidence for and against, the political risk would be massive. Every time a game kicked off at a ground where standing had been reintroduced the government that made the decision would be crossing its fingers.
It seems to me that the fans' argument that it would make the atmosphere more like the old days is the one sure thing guaranteed to make the government oppose it, because that's the last thing they want.
Most of them that quote 'the old days' weren't even there.
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It's not going to happen, at least not for a very long time. Regardless of the evidence for and against, the political risk would be massive. Every time a game kicked off at a ground where standing had been reintroduced the government that made the decision would be crossing its fingers.
It seems to me that the fans' argument that it would make the atmosphere more like the old days is the one sure thing guaranteed to make the government oppose it, because that's the last thing they want.
Most of them that quote 'the old days' weren't even there.
If they were. they'd realise that the old days often weren't that much better atmosphere wise than they are now.
I don't think standing will come back for a long time, if ever. As hilts says, the risk is too great. Just imagine they bring it back and something did happen, the repercussions would be massive. Who is going to sign off the okay and take the risk?
Plus, with so many new grounds and stands built over the last 20 years, there's probably a fair few clubs that won't be able to just switch seats to standing.
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It's not going to happen, at least not for a very long time. Regardless of the evidence for and against, the political risk would be massive. Every time a game kicked off at a ground where standing had been reintroduced the government that made the decision would be crossing its fingers.
It seems to me that the fans' argument that it would make the atmosphere more like the old days is the one sure thing guaranteed to make the government oppose it, because that's the last thing they want.
Most of them that quote 'the old days' weren't even there.
If they were. they'd realise that the old days often weren't that much better atmosphere wise than they are now.
I don't think standing will come back for a long time, if ever. As hilts says, the risk is too great. Just imagine they bring it back and something did happen, the repercussions would be massive. Who is going to sign off the okay and take the risk?
Plus, with so many new grounds and stands built over the last 20 years, there's probably a fair few clubs that won't be able to just switch seats to standing.
surely that's the choice of each individual club. Safe standing isn't anything like old standing, there is no risk in modern football stadia.
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Seems to work well in Germany .
If it brings the price down would be good too.
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Do you think it will bring the price down? I don't see any reason other than capacity increase and in that case we don't have that problem(?) at the moment! Surely if will be same price but option to sit or stand will be there?
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It's not going to happen, at least not for a very long time. Regardless of the evidence for and against, the political risk would be massive. Every time a game kicked off at a ground where standing had been reintroduced the government that made the decision would be crossing its fingers.
It seems to me that the fans' argument that it would make the atmosphere more like the old days is the one sure thing guaranteed to make the government oppose it, because that's the last thing they want.
I disagree I think its now inevitable. Once the drip drip drip effect gives way to the first trickle then the floodgates will open and inevitably standing areas will be reintroduced. Villa wouldn't have gone down this route without even the mildest encouragement from the Premier League, FA et al.
Its also similar to when a govt introduces a policy that may initially be unpopular. release rumours into the press about a tax hike, for example, and the majority shout it down in the media and opinions pages. The matter is raised again 6 months or so later and whilst the public is still gainst it you also here more 'experts' and the reasons that it could work. 12 months+ when it is introduced people react with a "well we knew it was coming".
Standing is going to be like this. The Margaret Aspinall's will be able to have their say but will be eventually drowned in a sea of people backing the campaign. Their is an inevitability about this and I think by 2014-15 we will see some standing areas for certain games at top flight clubs.
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People do need to bear in mind that safe standing will not be 'like the old days'. It will be like standing at our seats like we do on awaydays now - but safer.
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Just out of interest, what makes it "safe standing" as opposed to just "standing" and who has determined that it's safe?
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There should be a debate between Margaret Aspinall and somebody from Bradford who blames the fire on the seats.
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and this it what I miss,bouncing up and down on the top right watching the villa win...
I just miss seeing Villa win.
I went to the Malmö vs Djurgårdens match last night and stood on terracing drinking a beer. It was great being able to move about a bit, and because it was cold, better to be standing up than sitting. The atmosphere was great, it just felt like the crowd had more energy than back home where you have to sit most of the time.
Tickets were about £18 as well.
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Just out of interest, what makes it "safe standing" as opposed to just "standing" and who has determined that it's safe?
It provides a designated space to virtually every stander. Only a couple of people deep between rails. There is no leeway for crushes. Police & security retain the ability to identify & move in on troublemakers. The days of just finding your mates when you get there, crazy surges, & the anoninmity provided by an old style terrace have gone. This is simply an opportunity to stand in a space designed for standing rather than sitting.
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It provides a designated space to virtually every stander. Only a couple of people deep between rails. There is no leeway for crushes. Police & security retain the ability to identify & move in on troublemakers. The days of just finding your mates when you get there, crazy surges, & the anoninmity provided by an old style terrace have gone. This is simply an opportunity to stand in a space designed for standing rather than sitting.
Ta very much. Well that sounds fair enough to me. I still don't think the government will go for it though, I'm afraid.
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I sat in the curved seats (as I call them) today. I wonder how they would stop anyone just wandering over from the seats to stand there?
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http://www.fsf.org.uk/campaigns/safestanding/
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I would love to see terraces back, but i just cant see it happening. When the terraces were removed from Villa Park in 1994, there wasnt the compensation culture that there is now. You can just imagine for example if they terrace the lower holte, and the first wet or icy day comes along and somebody slips on sum terracing and breaks his/her leg then you know whats going to happen next. I can see football clubs insurance premiums sky rocketing.
Also, a whole generation of fans have missed out on standing on terraces..i think the excitement of a reintroduction of them would be too much for some people and would lead to bad behaviour.
I think the argument of standing would lead to cheaper tickets is a bit of a myth. Do you think they would be that much of price disparity between sitting and standing...for example if a seat in the holte now costs £30 do you think standing will be any cheaper than £20 bearing in mind the cost of reintroducing terracing? Also the price of seats would probably go up which would put off families IMO.
I loved the old Holte end, my first game on it was for the game against Inter Milan in 1990 and it still remains my favourite game not just for the great performance against a great team but for the sheer excitement of being in a rammed holte end with plenty of crowd surging and an awesome atmosphere. Great memories. But times and attitudes have changed and it just wouldnt be the same.
On the other hand, if it did come in, it would be great to watch the Holte restored to its former glory, from the safety of my front row seat from the North stand!
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I would love to see terraces back, but i just cant see it happening. When the terraces were removed from Villa Park in 1994, there wasnt the compensation culture that there is now. You can just imagine for example if they terrace the lower holte, and the first wet or icy day comes along and somebody slips on sum terracing and breaks his/her leg then you know whats going to happen next. I can see football clubs insurance premiums sky rocketing.
Also, a whole generation of fans have missed out on standing on terraces..i think the excitement of a reintroduction of them would be too much for some people and would lead to bad behaviour.
I think the argument of standing would lead to cheaper tickets is a bit of a myth. Do you think they would be that much of price disparity between sitting and standing...for example if a seat in the holte now costs £30 do you think standing will be any cheaper than £20 bearing in mind the cost of reintroducing terracing? Also the price of seats would probably go up which would put off families IMO.
I loved the old Holte end, my first game on it was for the game against Inter Milan in 1990 and it still remains my favourite game not just for the great performance against a great team but for the sheer excitement of being in a rammed holte end with plenty of crowd surging and an awesome atmosphere. Great memories. But times and attitudes have changed and it just wouldnt be the same.
On the other hand, if it did come in, it would be great to watch the Holte restored to its former glory, from the safety of my front row seat from the North stand!
Why don't you click on the link in the post above yours and see what safe standing looks like? I cannot imagine from what you have posted that you have done. There is as less risk of slips & falls than there is now from even intermittent standing in seated areas. Safe standing isn't terraces. It is something completely different. It is more akin to a 2012 awayday experience but without anyone telling you to sit down. People who think it is a return to old style standing will be disappointed - but it is a very good, and very safe compromise, which would improve the atmosphere.
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I hope it does come in, but you know what football clubs are like all these changes will cost and end up costing the supporter, I can just imagine Chelsea charging us £40 plus to stand up at Stamford Bridge.
If villa are going to trial this, i think it should be over a more substantial area, such as the North Stand lower..doing it in a tiny corner at the bottom of the Holte End would be pointless.
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I hope it does come in, but you know what football clubs are like all these changes will cost and end up costing the supporter, I can just imagine Chelsea charging us £40 plus to stand up at Stamford Bridge.
If villa are going to trial this, i think it should be over a more substantial area, such as the North Stand lower..doing it in a tiny corner at the bottom of the Holte End would be pointless.
Hence the word 'trial.' If this one works you do it in a bigger area.
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Why on earth is anyone concerned with the cost to the clubs? Surely that isn't a negative. It's each clubs choice what they want to do and spend money on.
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I hope it does come in, but you know what football clubs are like all these changes will cost and end up costing the supporter, I can just imagine Chelsea charging us £40 plus to stand up at Stamford Bridge.
If villa are going to trial this, i think it should be over a more substantial area, such as the North Stand lower..doing it in a tiny corner at the bottom of the Holte End would be pointless.
Hence the word 'trial.' If this one works you do it in a bigger area.
What are you going to learn in that tiny corner in the holte?
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Why on earth is anyone concerned with the cost to the clubs? Surely that isn't a negative. It's each clubs choice what they want to do and spend money on.
Because it will be the supporter who will foot the bill?
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I hope it does come in, but you know what football clubs are like all these changes will cost and end up costing the supporter, I can just imagine Chelsea charging us £40 plus to stand up at Stamford Bridge.
If villa are going to trial this, i think it should be over a more substantial area, such as the North Stand lower..doing it in a tiny corner at the bottom of the Holte End would be pointless.
Hence the word 'trial.' If this one works you do it in a bigger area.
What are you going to learn in that tiny corner in the holte?
How it works, for a start. I know it's a lot to ask, but how about giving something a try before you knock it.
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I hope it does come in, but you know what football clubs are like all these changes will cost and end up costing the supporter, I can just imagine Chelsea charging us £40 plus to stand up at Stamford Bridge.
If villa are going to trial this, i think it should be over a more substantial area, such as the North Stand lower..doing it in a tiny corner at the bottom of the Holte End would be pointless.
Hence the word 'trial.' If this one works you do it in a bigger area.
What are you going to learn in that tiny corner in the holte?
How it works, for a start. I know it's a lot to ask, but how about giving something a try before you knock it.
Im not knocking it, if you read my piece i said i hope would it would be brought in, i just think if you are going to trial something like this you should do it properly..dont know why you are being so aggresive dave, i was just making a point on a discussion board.
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He's hardly being aggressive.
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He's hardly being aggressive.
Ok sarcastic then.
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I'm not being aggressive, but this subject is a lot more difficult than just sticking a terrace on a large area of what is currently seating and seeing what happens. You will have to deal with councils, police, licensing authorities and a lot of negative publicity from media and such groups as the Hillsborough families. You will have to make sure that everything is 100% safe and nothing can go wrong because it will be the most scrutinised part of any football ground in the country, if not the world. That means a trial in a small area then, if it works, it can be rolled out in a larger section of the ground. If my maths are correct the area in question will cover something like 0.6% of total capacity. That might not sound much but it's a lot bigger than most consumer trials.
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Do you really think the concourse ( if you can call it that) of the North Stand is safe to trial having 1.5-1.8 x more supporters? Doubt it very much. Doing something like that would give Aspinal proper ammo to use against safe standing.
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The Witton End, with it's one entry point, has a little too much of Leppings Lane about it to make it suitable for any early trial. One entry point and a long narrow strip of terrace. People will have tickets for a set space, but in the early stages of 'safe standing' they may choose to just revert to what they remember - standing where they like. This could scupper it very early on if there is even a hint of a crush developing because everyone decides to stand near the end where they came in. The principle of standing which is as organised as sitting needs to be well established in small steps, and be well thought out as to which areas of the ground are most suitable.
That corner of the Holte is an ideal start.
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I'm not being aggressive, but this subject is a lot more difficult than just sticking a terrace on a large area of what is currently seating and seeing what happens. You will have to deal with councils, police, licensing authorities and a lot of negative publicity from media and such groups as the Hillsborough families. You will have to make sure that everything is 100% safe and nothing can go wrong because it will be the most scrutinised part of any football ground in the country, if not the world. That means a trial in a small area then, if it works, it can be rolled out in a larger section of the ground. If my maths are correct the area in question will cover something like 0.6% of total capacity. That might not sound much but it's a lot bigger than most consumer trials.
I agree with you on all that Dave, its going to be a difficult thing to implement though thats why I said I cant see it coming in due to those and other factors.As ive said before I would like to see it come in, but maybe im just being cynical. When do football clubs ever put the fans first. If the villa are "the exception to the rule" then that would be fantastic. I just hope its not us who ends up paying for it through higher ticket prices.
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While you can criticise them on playing matters, you can't say much about the board and their customer relations. I also think that all clubs are worried about the increasing age of their fanbase and standing is one thing that can help in this respect.
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The Witton End, with it's one entry point, has a little too much of Leppings Lane about it to make it suitable for any early trial. One entry point and a long narrow strip of terrace. People will have tickets for a set space, but in the early stages of 'safe standing' they may choose to just revert to what they remember - standing where they like. This could scupper it very early on if there is even a hint of a crush developing because everyone decides to stand near the end where they came in. The principle of standing which is as organised as sitting needs to be well established in small steps, and be well thought out as to which areas of the ground are most suitable.
That corner of the Holte is an ideal start.
So if the trial is in that corner of the holte wouldnt the same thing happen, people will be coming in and out through one area?
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The Witton End, with it's one entry point, has a little too much of Leppings Lane about it to make it suitable for any early trial. One entry point and a long narrow strip of terrace. People will have tickets for a set space, but in the early stages of 'safe standing' they may choose to just revert to what they remember - standing where they like. This could scupper it very early on if there is even a hint of a crush developing because everyone decides to stand near the end where they came in. The principle of standing which is as organised as sitting needs to be well established in small steps, and be well thought out as to which areas of the ground are most suitable.
That corner of the Holte is an ideal start.
So if the trial is in that corner of the holte wouldnt the same thing happen, people will be coming in and out through one area?
Yes but it's only a small corner of the ground. If it is successful and they expand it then they will need to look more carefully at entry and exit points and indeed how to cope with extra numbers in concourses. But as others have pointed out, it will be a trial, any issues and it will be stopped until the problems are addressed.
What will need to be pointed out very early to the fans is that they are on trial just as much as the terracing, one hint of "standing where they want" or pushing and shoving and the trial will finish and we can say goodbye to terracing forever.
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Id be happy to see standing back on the basis that I could celebrate a goal properly. I'm 6 foot 5 so since seats have been introduced i have lost count of the number of times i've destroyed my knees on the seat in front of me when celebrating a goal.
Of course standing behind me might be a problem ;) ...............
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Guys and Gals, I've just realised why Bloose are so crap - its deliberate. They are obviously trying to get into the third tier of football so they can reintroduce standing areas at the Sty without going through delicate negotiations with the Premier or Football Leagues. Brilliant idea.
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I think football should allow to reintroduce standing area as long they have 2,500 people limit in one stand, so it will be easier for crowd control rather than have say 15,000 people. So this way fans will be happy and the club will be happy to have this option without massive headache.
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Guys and Gals, I've just realised why Bloose are so crap - its deliberate. They are obviously trying to get into the third tier of football so they can reintroduce standing areas at the Sty without going through delicate negotiations with the Premier or Football Leagues. Brilliant idea.
I reckon you should probably avoid using the term 'Guys and Gals' at the moment. Other phrases best avoided also include, 'Now then, now then', 'Ow's about that then' and making strange ululating noises. Good point re small heath's cunning plan though
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and this it what I miss,bouncing up and down on the top right watching the villa win...
I just miss watching the Villa win!
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I started standing on the Holte at the age of 14, I took my brother when he was 11 - how the hell did we survive?
We used to take fans from other teams onto the Holte for the experience because it was a/ exciting and b/ safe.
Nothing is 100% safe and doubtless the first fans trying this out will have to sign a waiver in case of hideous injury - most likely a result of self-harm due to the performances.
Sorry if this is not taking it seriously but get a grip - this is standing up - it is what made us differnet from the chimps!
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If you want to stand just get a ticket for the lower North Stand, as a lot of fans stand all game in that part of the ground!! Most visiting away fans also stand all game and I can't say that I have seen too many safety issues or violent incidents.
Would anybody be able to shed some light on exactly how safe standing works in countries like Germany?
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If you want to stand just get a ticket for the lower North Stand, as a lot of fans stand all game in that part of the ground!! Most visiting away fans also stand all game and I can't say that I have seen too many safety issues or violent incidents.
Would anybody be able to shed some light on exactly how safe standing works in countries like Germany?
Her you go...
http://youtu.be/apX5V1IJCW4
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If you want to stand just get a ticket for the lower North Stand, as a lot of fans stand all game in that part of the ground!! Most visiting away fans also stand all game and I can't say that I have seen too many safety issues or violent incidents.
Would anybody be able to shed some light on exactly how safe standing works in countries like Germany?
Her you go...
http://youtu.be/apX5V1IJCW4
Great idea and very safe by the looks of it.
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If you want to stand just get a ticket for the lower North Stand, as a lot of fans stand all game in that part of the ground!! Most visiting away fans also stand all game and I can't say that I have seen too many safety issues or violent incidents.
Would anybody be able to shed some light on exactly how safe standing works in countries like Germany?
I can't see how there can be any argument against that to be honest.
Her you go...
http://youtu.be/apX5V1IJCW4
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This has cropped up in the press again. Observer Link (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/nov/17/premier-league-safe-standing-areas). The support for this certainly seems to be growing. I wouldn't be surprised if we see some movement once the Hillsborough inquiry's over.
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Someone posting as 'Mary' had this to say from the link in the OP:
"I have never cared about football but I am incensed with this suggestion. Aston Villa are clearly more interested in money than supporters lives. The government should take action to close down this football club as what they are going to do will endanger public safety. It is also encouraging hooliganism and loutish behaviour in general."
I think ignorance is going to be a factor in this. Still, I'm very proud of villa for being open to this.
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Someone posting as 'Mary' had this to say from the link in the OP:
"I have never cared about football but I am incensed with this suggestion. Aston Villa are clearly more interested in money than supporters lives. The government should take action to close down this football club as what they are going to do will endanger public safety. It is also encouraging hooliganism and loutish behaviour in general."
Bloody hell! Second name Whitehouse?!
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If there was a major incident in a football ground now, I think there is every chance the seating in some grounds could in fact be more dangerous. At least we wouldn't be caged in now.
I'm all for it.
I've never been good at sitting down for anything.
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Someone posting as 'Mary' had this to say from the link in the OP:
"I have never cared about football but I am incensed with this suggestion. Aston Villa are clearly more interested in money than supporters lives. The government should take action to close down this football club as what they are going to do will endanger public safety. It is also encouraging hooliganism and loutish behaviour in general."
I think ignorance is going to be a factor in this. Still, I'm very proud of villa for being open to this.
What a dickhead
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Someone posting as 'Mary' had this to say from the link in the OP:
"I have never cared about football but I am incensed with this suggestion. Aston Villa are clearly more interested in money than supporters lives. The government should take action to close down this football club as what they are going to do will endanger public safety. It is also encouraging hooliganism and loutish behaviour in general."
I think ignorance is going to be a factor in this. Still, I'm very proud of villa for being open to this.
What the hell is OP?
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Opening Post.
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I think football should allow to reintroduce standing area as long they have 2,500 people limit in one stand, so it will be easier for crowd control rather than have say 15,000 people. So this way fans will be happy and the club will be happy to have this option without massive headache.
I don't think the absolute number is really the point. There just has to be proportionately the 'right' amounts of:
- safe entry-exits
- enough crowd-management 'furniture' to avoid excessive crowd-movement and surging
- good circulation space behind the terracing
- good signage
- good stewarding.
I presume it would be sold as season-ticket only, to avoid away-fan incursion and to know who's in there if trouble were to happen.
With what is now known about crowd behaviour and management (lessons-learned from Hillsborough, Heysel, Bradford, Kings Cross Station, etc) and the number of experts out there, this should not be a high-risk venture at all. It just needs proper consideration and management.
It's not for me, however: at 5'7" watching footie from terracing for me was always a challenge (even if lots of fun).
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Someone posting as 'Mary' had this to say from the link in the OP:
"I have never cared about football but I am incensed with this suggestion. Aston Villa are clearly more interested in money than supporters lives. The government should take action to close down this football club as what they are going to do will endanger public safety. It is also encouraging hooliganism and loutish behaviour in general."
I think ignorance is going to be a factor in this. Still, I'm very proud of villa for being open to this.
This is what I don't understand... How can the 'rail seats' used in this safe standing idea be any more dangerous than say, a Saturday in a shopping centre? It's people standing up, in a designated space, which is proven to be safe.
And 'encouraging hooliganism and loutish behaviour in general'?! Please, if you're going to make an assumption like that, delve into a little more detail.
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I'm amazed at the utter nonsense that is written about standing at a football match and whether or not it's safe. Has anyone who is actually involved making these decisions regularly stood on the terraces at a match? I doubt it. If anything was dangerous about attending a match in the 70's and 80's it was getting to and from the ground. Standing and watching was generally the safe bit.
I only ever felt in danger once in the Holte and that was the last game of the season in 1975 when they let way too many people in. That kind of thing can easily be avoided
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Someone posting as 'Mary' had this to say from the link in the OP:
"I have never cared about football but I am incensed with this suggestion. Aston Villa are clearly more interested in money than supporters lives. The government should take action to close down this football club as what they are going to do will endanger public safety. It is also encouraging hooliganism and loutish behaviour in general."
I think ignorance is going to be a factor in this. Still, I'm very proud of villa for being open to this.
Well Mary if that's the case why don't you fuck off and stick you nose into something you might know about!
The thing is if as fans we want this we have to do more than just signing the FSF petition, we need to mobilise like fans on the continent do, German fans are protesting at £17 tickets for a local derby we just hand over £35 for Norwich at home!
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Too many middle-class wankers into football now for us to mobilise about ticket prices I'm afraid. Plus, we've had our community spirit crushed by, yes, Thatcher.
Oh, and Mary is a fucking moron who will, hopefully, be ignored by everybody in the decision making process.
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Opening Post.
Many thanks
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Villa have said they're interested but other clubs seem reluctant. I think we need to make this a wider supporter issue across all clubs, but how it becomes a general campaign is the big question.
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I stand for a goal. (Goodness me, I do whenever I'm there, and.. :P)
What would you stand for?
(if you're a fan)
Suggest a campaign asking people what they stand for.
That might be a bit obvious but I think it could work.
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Villa have said they're interested but other clubs seem reluctant. I think we need to make this a wider supporter issue across all clubs, but how it becomes a general campaign is the big question.
i think it's more of clubs expecting a backlash from the ignorant and uneducated. For a club the size of us to speak in support of this campaign is massive for the FSF. We get the shit and get it into the public eye. Reason is all the SCG meetings where it was brought up ad nausium, declining crowds and declining interest got the Villa. It'll benefit us in the long term I'm sure.
I expect more clubs to follow now we've taken the lead. There have been 2 relatively big clubs in Wolves and Blues as well as Hull speak up anoit this issue and I'm sure more will follow suit.
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To really take this forward Villa need to be able to demonstrate that the fans want it - and that eveidence isn't there at the moment. The FSF petition has a huge number of signatures - but actually when it comes down to it, it's a number that doesn't add up to the support of one club, let alone 92.
I think the difficulty with getting fans to campaign for standing is that they mostly already do. Many don't understand that the stewards have to be seen to get them to sit down and aren't just doing it to be arsey - they have to do it to prevent the club being sanctioned. Even closing parts of some grounds doesn't affect people that much whilst attendances are low. The odd fan who is thrown out at an away game for persistent standing just goes back to the pub and meets his mates after as a bit of a hero. The battle with the stewards is as much part of the matchday experience for younger fans as the sway of the terraces was for those of us that remember it.
It'd be better for everyone not to have to have that battle with the stewards - then the stewards could spend time actually helping people, or dealing with genuine trouble makers.
The advantages of standing at a football match aren't just about atmosphere, it about not being so cold on a horrible winters day, it's about not having to keep standing & sitting down again when everyone leaves early for half time/comes back late/leaves early to beat the traffic. Actually - just not having to keep getting up and down full stop - it's actually harder on older people than simply standing! It's also about people who want to sit being able to sit.
But .....whilst people are standing anyway and steward baiting is a bit of a laugh for many fans, it's difficult to see how we can get the masses motivated to make a noise about standing by any method other than.....just standing. This might be enough if the authorities didn't argue that most of the people standing don't want to, they are just standing because people are in their way!
I know that when I talk to fans around me at Villa that aren't internet geeks, they understand very little about the issues surrounding standing, so it probably would take a concerted campaign by a number of dedicated fans to take the message out there on matchdays, and get ordinary fans to sign up their support. Would anyone be up for this to take it forward?
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Villa have said they're interested but other clubs seem reluctant. I think we need to make this a wider supporter issue across all clubs, but how it becomes a general campaign is the big question.
i think it's more of clubs expecting a backlash from the ignorant and uneducated. For a club the size of us to speak in support of this campaign is massive for the FSF. We get the shit and get it into the public eye. Reason is all the SCG meetings where it was brought up ad nausium, declining crowds and declining interest got the Villa. It'll benefit us in the long term I'm sure.
I expect more clubs to follow now we've taken the lead. There have been 2 relatively big clubs in Wolves and Blues as well as Hull speak up anoit this issue and I'm sure more will follow suit.
In the Premier League West Ham and Sunderland have also backed it.
Then you've got Derby, Peterborough, Crystal Palace, Bristol City, Burnley, Watford, Brentford, AFC Wimbledon & Doncaster.
A good number but it'd be nice to have a few more PL clubs. Jon Darch has said that there are others in the Prem who support the concept but are not ready to go public yet. Shame.
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Each to their own and all that, but standing doesn't appeal to me anymore.
Given some of the twats, chav's and 'no respect' individuals that follow us (and most other clubs I suspect) I can just imagine what a standing area would be like, and its not for me.
That said, its all about choice.
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Each to their own and all that, but standing doesn't appeal to me anymore.
Given some of the twats, chav's and 'no respect' individuals that follow us (and most other clubs I suspect) I can just imagine what a standing area would be like, and its not for me.
That said, its all about choice.
I'm all for safe standing so that those who want to stand can. I don't want to stand, I want to sit so it suits all. Hopefully.
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It tells you all you need to know on the topic, and how different football is now, when some that I know would love to stand as long as they can have a sit down in the warm in the Holte Suite at half time!
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We should be given the right of choice, they even have standing areas at gigs now, AND they`re allowed to take Alcohol into the area, if it can happen at the NEC it can happen in Football grounds, were discriminated against, because we`re football fans, and therefore the lowest of the low, and incapable of independent thought - wrong, bring on the revolution!!..
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We should be given the right of choice, they even have standing areas at gigs now, AND they`re allowed to take Alcohol into the area, if it can happen at the NEC it can happen in Football grounds, were discriminated against, because we`re football fans, and therefore the lowest of the low, and incapable of independent thought - wrong, bring on the revolution!!..
I think gigs stopped being all seater events some time around 1965 ;)
I would absolutely love to see a trial standing area at Villa Park with the aim to make larger areas standing should the trial go to plan. I haven't heard a single argument against standing areas at football stadiums that stands up to debate and it would provide a much needed injection of atmosphere into the crowd.
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To really take this forward Villa need to be able to demonstrate that the fans want it - and that eveidence isn't there at the moment..............
The above post, in full, is one of the most pragmatic I have seen for a long time.
The problem is not that having standing areas does not have merit, it is that there is little impetus for change from the status quo.
It is easy to simply accept that since the Taylor Report and Hillsborough we have had no crowd related deaths in British stadiums for twenty three years. All seaters at large capacity football grounds have worked.Terraces didn't.
In the twenty three years working from Hillsborough backwards, sixty six died at Ibrox, fifty six at Bradford, ninety six at Hillsborough and thirty nine at Heysel, an astonishing two hundred and fifty seven people. Although Bradford was not terrace related being in a seated area, it did reflect poor safety standards endemic in football then. Heysel, although abroad, could have happened at numerous English grounds.
So the question is asked- 0 v 257, why change?
Then there is the question of cost. If it is just a question of allowing people to stand where there are currently seats then it is no change. If it is a question of rail standing, one rail per seat, why would clubs pay extra to facilitate something which is happening already? If it is a question of increased density then there is the cost of re-profiling terraced steps and alterations to exits , entrances, and toilet and refreshment provision for no payback.
I do think that there is a very strong case for German style rail seating in new purpose built stands- but that will be a long haul.
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From the Beeb
Thirteen English league clubs support re-introducing standing at football grounds, according to a fans' group.
On Tuesday, the Football Supporters' Federation is hoping to win the backing of MPs for its plans for a small-scale trial at Premier League clubs.
It believes the pilot scheme would show standing - outlawed after the Hillsborough disaster in 1989 - is now a safe way to watch football.
The Premier League has previously said it opposed the idea.
FSF's Peter Daykin said: "We need to find out if it can work and the only way to do that is to trial it."
All-seater stadiums have been compulsory in the Premier League since 1994, following Lord Justice Taylor's report after the Hillsborough disaster.
But MP Roger Godsiff has tabled an Early Day Motion calling for government approval of a pilot scheme.
The FSF says the idea has the support of Aston Villa and the Scottish Premier League plus 12 Football League clubs, including Peterborough United, Cardiff City, Crystal Palace, Derby County and Hull City.
The proposal is to introduce a design of "rail seat" currently used in some European countries such as Germany. This incorporates a safety barrier and a flip-down seat on every other row. The seats can be locked in an upright position, meaning two rows of supporters can stand in between the barriers, which reduces the danger of a crush.
A panel of industry experts containing Villa's chief executive Paul Faulkner and West Midlands Police Force Superintendent Steve Graham will present a case for allowing standing at matches at Portcullis House in Westminster on Tuesday.
FSF's safe standing co-ordinator Daykin told BBC Sport: "The debate about standing has reached a point where both sides are entrenched.
"The bottom line is things have changed dramatically since 23 years ago when the Taylor Report was produced.
"Things have moved on massively in terms of technology and know-how around safety in football grounds.
"So, what we are calling for is a number of small-scale trials at Premier League clubs up and down the country.
"Then experts, safety officers and the police can see how it works in a modern context.
"We have had 50 MPs sign up to Roger Godsiff's EDM and correspondence showing support from more MPs unable to sign an EDM for technical reasons."
Professional Footballers' Association chief executive Gordon Taylor said on Monday that clubs might have to introduce netting around pitches to protect players.
Taylor was speaking after Manchester United's Rio Ferdinand was hit by an object as his side celebrated the winning goal against Manchester City on Sunday.
English league clubs backing trial
Aston Villa
Brentford
Bristol City
Burnley
Cardiff City
Crystal Palace
Derby County
Doncaster Rovers
Hull City
Peterborough United
Plymouth Argyle
Watford
AFC Wimbledon
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Where i sit in K4, we stand every game, The atmosphere is so much better.
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Why the lack of Premier League clubs other than us?
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Where i sit in K4, we stand every game.
*Oxymoron alert*
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Why the lack of Premier League clubs other than us?
If you have a scoot around most of the Premier League clubs forums I think you'll find most of them have threads mostly in favour of a trial period for safe standing. But with the people holding the purse strings (The Premier League) being against the idea, most clubs are afraid to put their heads above the parapet.
To quote Mr. Woodhall "Aston Villa doing the right thing since 1874."