Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Off Topic => Sports Arena => Topic started by: paul_e on September 04, 2012, 10:33:33 AM
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No one had started a post so I thought I'd get the ball rolling.
First thing - http://www.premiershiprugby.tv/ (http://www.premiershiprugby.tv/) - excellent website, all games available in full the same day they're played, and highlights within a few days.
From this weekend How good a comeback was it for Quins - that mental strength this early in the season is pretty impressive, think they might have a good year in europe.
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More importantly, the "Mighty Lyd" had a convincing victory over Barking. Given the upheaval in the coaching ranks and the number of players who left this summer, we're hot favourites for relegation. Therefore, Saturday's win was a pleasant surprise, albeit against a team that has also lost a load of players.
The leagues have now existed for 25 years and Lydney must be the most consistent (or maybe the dullest) non-Premiership team. We're still at the same level as we were when the leagues started.
We've been promoted a couple of times but have never been lower than where we started.
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Gloucester lost at home. AGAIN! However, they did look much stronger up front.
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Glaws vs Saints was a very good, very close match, I think both will have a good season, can't be happy with a home defeat on the first day though.
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We aren't happy with a home defeat ever. Against any opposition. In any competition.
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Early days and Davies deserves some space although I dare him to lose at home again! Our front five looks light with Big Jim suspended and I worry our back line will be starved of ball.
6th
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We aren't happy with a home defeat ever. Against any opposition. In any competition.
Especially not on Boxing Day by a team from 20 miles down the A48 ;)
(Ah, the good old days)
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Minimum requirement this season is Heineken Cup qualification.
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Minimum requirement this season is Heineken Cup qualification.
Surely most teams in the premiership have that as their target.
Glaws should be targeting the playoffs, along with Quins, Tigers, Saints, Sarries and possibly Exeter. I don't think anyone else has a strong enough squad to get up to the top 4 but I'd think only Welsh, Worcester and Wasps will be thinking safety first.
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Where have exeter come from all of a sudden?
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Excellent management basically.
Strong front 5, great back row, reliable half back pair and good defensive players outside. They're really tough to beat because they're excellently organised and very fit. As you'll guess I have a strong opinion of their best unit - Tom Johnson gets a lot of plaudits (after doing well for england as well) but James Scaysbrook is just as good a player. The pair of them were exceptional last season - run all day, tackle well, pass and carry well and win loads of turnovers.
On top of that they're well drilled in the line and the scrum so they don't give away much there either.
I question how much further they can get with their squad but they're certainly at the least a solid mid table side, and with the likes of Bath, Irish and Sale looking disjointed still I think they're a great shout to make the heineken cup again this year.
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Where have exeter come from all of a sudden?
Devon.
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Where have exeter come from all of a sudden?
Devon.
Much more of that stuff and you'll be parachuted as a pundit on MOTD
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Apt to post this on a Rugby thread, Football has overtaken Rugby as the most popular played sport in New Zealand.
It's about time... :D :D
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I might go to the rugby tomorrow. Big local derby between Stourbridge and DK.
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Apt to post this on a Rugby thread, Football has overtaken Rugby as the most popular played sport in New Zealand.
It's about time... :D :D
Based on what measure? I bet more tun up to the next ABs games than the next AWs
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Apt to post this on a Rugby thread, Football has overtaken Rugby as the most popular played sport in New Zealand.
It's about time... :D :D
Based on what measure? I bet more tun up to the next ABs games than the next AWs
Based on the number of people playing the game. The post did say the most popular played sport.
Will be interesting to see what sort of crowds the AW's get, last time they were here in NZ they had big crowds.
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Nice to see Welsh get a win at the weekend, hopefully they won't be quite such a soft touch as people were predicting.
Can't remember seeing seeing 2 draws in a weekend too often.
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I don't like Worcester but that is mainly because I work with a number of their fans. Very hit and miss from Glaws so far this season.
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Yeah, I'm a little disappointed with glaws so far, I expected them to be much more willing to run the ball than they have been, seems like the nerves from the end of last year haven't been shaken off yet.
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Done alright so far today. Sinbad scored an absolute stormer.
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Bath at home tomorrow.
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Bath at home tomorrow.
the big one. This is the sort of game we need to win to get HC next season. I'm excited and a little nervous in equal measure.
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Interesting season so far this year, I'm foremost a saints fan so I'm very happy with their start. Gloucs (as my other team) have recovered well from losing at home on the opening day and look quite free-flowing again this year, I'm hoping they both make the play-offs (along with quins who also play the right way to develop players for the international side)
Sarries continue to be my most disliked team, really want them to miss out on the playoffs this year to show that the percentage based tripe they play isn't a long term route to success.
Irish and Sale have started badly, which is a shame as both have decent squads with good youngsters but they seem to be lacking a bit of leadership.
Looking forward to the gloucs game tomorrow, usually a good fixture to watch.
Really looking forward to Heineken Cup starting up - Quins vs Biarritz on the sat and Toulouse vs Leicester on the sunday is 2 very tasty fixtures on the opening weekend and Leinster away on their first appearance in it for Exeter is about as harsh as it gets.
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The chances of Glos being top 4 are similar to villa getting to the CL.
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annoying that its difficult getting any Moseley info on the beeb website. Anyway, currently watching Sale - Leicester. easy 2nd half for Leicester.
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Phew 16 10 but should have been more. Glos robbed of a try by the touch judge late on. Alway nice to see the fancy Dans going back down the A46 with their tails between their legs. God crowd too c16k.
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The chances of Glos being top 4 are similar to villa getting to the CL.
I completely disagree, I think it's a push as tigers, saints and quins will get 3 of the spots but I think glaws can sneak 4th from sarries bonus points will be important this year I think and glaws will get the 4 tries a lot more often than sarries (as will quins, tigers and saints)
Bad result for saints yesterday, looked like a team expecting to stroll to a 5 point win.
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I was possibly exaggerating a bit but top4 would be an achievement,top 6 a necessity.
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Stourbridge are still on maximum points in their attempts to get back to National League 1. Stuffed everyone so far.
We could take in a local away later this season with them if anyone fancies it?
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England squad for the Autumn Internationals announced earlier and very interested in how young Vunipola goes at loose head. He won't start in front of Marler, at least not for the big games, I wouldn't imagine but it's good that he will get some experience.
The announcement though does expose the folly of Lancaster having to pick his Elite and Saxon squads in the middle of Summer. Owen Farrell is nowhere near the form to play at 10 for England and doesn't get much game time for Sarries there either. If anything happens to Flood we are fooked if we have to start him. There was little room for manouevre for Lancaster and it's a real shame that he couldn't have squeezed Freddie Burns in somewhere. It is what it is though and presuming all fit, I would go the following :
Marler
Hartley
Cole
Lawes
Parling
Wood
Robshaw
Morgan
Youngs
Flood
Monye
Tuilagi
Joseph
Ashton
Goode
Vunipola, Youngs, Palmer, Johnson, Care, Farrell, Brown
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No Burns, no Simpson Daniel, I despair. Please can a non Gloucester supporter let me know in their independent view this is fair?
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I think overall the squad decision is fair, obviously you're always going to have a few players you could go either way on. However I think the squad seems to have been picked on form and performance over the summer in South Africa overall.
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I'm mostly happy with the squad but for 3 -
Freddie Burns should have been an automatic choice, he's the most promising young FH in the country and has stepped up a level this year, should be in instead on Farrell who isn't playing fly half at club level and has major limitations to his game when he plays there.
Stefon Armitage should be there, yes he's played a few games for England and not done it but it was only 6 games and since then he's had a season and a bit of being the best back row in a very competitive french league, he deserves a chance to start 3-4 games in a row (like the chance Robshaw was given). He is fantastic and turning ball over on the floor, which is an area England have struggled with since Back retired in 2003.
Monye shouldn't be anywhere near the squad. We have some very exciting young talents on the wing who should be getting experience now to be ready for the world cup, calling up someone so average in there place is silly. If you're going to pick an older winger for experience then give Sinbad a go.
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Monye is an odd choice.
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Monye is an odd choice.
Not for me he isn't, think he has something like 5 tries already this season?. As much as I like Sinbad, I think his time has been and gone and he has been so unlucky, especially when he got glandular fever in 2002 just when he got in. Think Jonny May has been injured hasn't he? He would have been my choice if fit. Wade I guess, like Cipriani, they are worried by his defence as opposed to what he can do?.
So although there are choices I don't think Monye is a poor choice. Got a good record for England and I would personally pick him in the team ahead of Sharples.
As I said in my original post, this is the problem of picking a squad in July before the season starts. They couldn't drop Farrell for any reason other than injury. Therefore he stays in and Burns stays out
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Well after the Villa dross Glos are on hand to perk up the week end. How do like them apples Leicester? Monumental defence from those Glos heroes particularly with 13 men.
Hopefully Stuart Lancaster saw that and realises what a twat he's been with his selection.
The cherry on the icing on the cake was the Cock complaining about the ref at the end! Clearly he's going to ask for his money back.
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Going well for me on the rugby front. Stourbridge are demolishing all and sundry.
And after losing at home on the opening day Glaws have worked their way into a tidy run of form.
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Big ask for Glos tomorrow though. I suspect the unbeaten away form to come to an end. That said it's still been a great start to the season.
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After 25 years (ie since the beginning of the league system) in the same division, with just a couple of seasons at the next level up, this could be the year that the mighty Lyd finally drop down a level.
We're currently second from bottom of "National Two South" with our only win being on the first day of the season against Barking, who are the only club below us.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_League_2_South
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Try before half time killed Glaws at the weekend. The ref didn't help any either. Another bonus point win for Stour.
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Great news Freddie has been called up to the squad for the Autumn Internationals and well done to Twelvetrees as well. JTH appears as though he is unfit and I can't think that he offers anything different to Barritt so it maybe a blessing.
Now the interesting part for Lancaster. Freddie is in there, he is clearly the form putside half in the country, so has Lancaster the balls to put him in the Matchday 22 next weekend?. Listening to Chris Foy from the Daily Mail on Talkshite last night, he doesn't seem to think so, but it would be a crying shame if he wasn't given an opportunity when he is in the form he currently is.
Looking at Clive Woodward's choice for England team was interesting as well. Back row of Robshaw, Saull and Easter. Half backs of Care, Cipriani. Three quarters of Burns, Armitage in the centres and Ashton, Wade and Brown as back three. His reasoning, he wants players with the X factor who will get the Twickenham Crowd off their feet and excited.
My backline now for Saturday would be Care, Burns, Barritt, Tuilagi, Sharples, Monye, Goode. Leave Floody till the Aussie game and lets see what Freddie can do. Ashton suspended and Joseph is injured, so that makes my mind up in the rest of the backs. And please, let's not have Waldrom at 8, a back row of Robshaw, Morgan and either Johnson or Wood please.
Am off to Headquarters this Saturday, next Saturday and for the NZ game on 1st December, so looking forward to seeing I hope a minimum of three wins.
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As above - great news for Burns and, in my opinion, he has to have a shot to see if he can step up to internationals. Given the first game is the easiest I'd start him on saturday.
As for woodward's picks, the back row is poor, of those only Robshaw deserves a squad place let alone a start (I like Saull and think he has a lot to offer but he's not ready), If fit Wood has to be the fist name down and Morgan is miles ahead of Easter as an international 8. From there - how can you say you want an exciting side and then pick armitage ahead of Joseph (shame he's a doubt for the first game), that's just silly.
Cole, Youngs, Vunipola, Lawes (if he's fit), Parling, Wood, Morgan, Robshaw
Care, Burns, Sharples, Barritt, Tuilagi, Ashton, Goode
Touch harsh on Mike Brown but I just don't think he's international quality, fly half there's no point looking at Flood for this game (we know what he can do) and I don't like Farrell as a 10, he's too 1-dimensional. I'd go with vunipola for the same reason as Burns, if you can't pick him for this game he's got no business being in the squad because it's only going to get tougher.
I also really don't like the 2nd row options, Botha is average and Palmer is going to struggle to make the next world cup so I'd pick 1 or the other of them and look at getting a younger option, Graham Kitchener being my choice, him and Lawes could make an excellent pairing for the next 10-12 years.
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Great news Freddie has been called up to the squad for the Autumn Internationals and well done to Twelvetrees as well. JTH appears as though he is unfit and I can't think that he offers anything different to Barritt so it maybe a blessing.
Now the interesting part for Lancaster. Freddie is in there, he is clearly the form putside half in the country, so has Lancaster the balls to put him in the Matchday 22 next weekend?. Listening to Chris Foy from the Daily Mail on Talkshite last night, he doesn't seem to think so, but it would be a crying shame if he wasn't given an opportunity when he is in the form he currently is.
Looking at Clive Woodward's choice for England team was interesting as well. Back row of Robshaw, Saull and Easter. Half backs of Care, Cipriani. Three quarters of Burns, Armitage in the centres and Ashton, Wade and Brown as back three. His reasoning, he wants players with the X factor who will get the Twickenham Crowd off their feet and excited.
My backline now for Saturday would be Care, Burns, Barritt, Tuilagi, Sharples, Monye, Goode. Leave Floody till the Aussie game and lets see what Freddie can do. Ashton suspended and Joseph is injured, so that makes my mind up in the rest of the backs. And please, let's not have Waldrom at 8, a back row of Robshaw, Morgan and either Johnson or Wood please.
Am off to Headquarters this Saturday, next Saturday and for the NZ game on 1st December, so looking forward to seeing I hope a minimum of three wins.
I'm going against the Aussies. is Richmond the best place to drink pre-match?
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Great news Freddie has been called up to the squad for the Autumn Internationals and well done to Twelvetrees as well. JTH appears as though he is unfit and I can't think that he offers anything different to Barritt so it maybe a blessing.
Now the interesting part for Lancaster. Freddie is in there, he is clearly the form putside half in the country, so has Lancaster the balls to put him in the Matchday 22 next weekend?. Listening to Chris Foy from the Daily Mail on Talkshite last night, he doesn't seem to think so, but it would be a crying shame if he wasn't given an opportunity when he is in the form he currently is.
Looking at Clive Woodward's choice for England team was interesting as well. Back row of Robshaw, Saull and Easter. Half backs of Care, Cipriani. Three quarters of Burns, Armitage in the centres and Ashton, Wade and Brown as back three. His reasoning, he wants players with the X factor who will get the Twickenham Crowd off their feet and excited.
My backline now for Saturday would be Care, Burns, Barritt, Tuilagi, Sharples, Monye, Goode. Leave Floody till the Aussie game and lets see what Freddie can do. Ashton suspended and Joseph is injured, so that makes my mind up in the rest of the backs. And please, let's not have Waldrom at 8, a back row of Robshaw, Morgan and either Johnson or Wood please.
Am off to Headquarters this Saturday, next Saturday and for the NZ game on 1st December, so looking forward to seeing I hope a minimum of three wins.
I'm going against the Aussies. is Richmond the best place to drink pre-match?
I quite like Richmond, from the little I have seen of it, but never been there before the game. I do know that it is very popular though. The one aspect that puts me off is that you have either got to get a train or a bus or a massive walk to get to the ground.
We tend to go to the pubs in Twickenham itself. If you are heading there by train then come out of the station and turn left into Twickenham town centre, as opposed to going right towards the ground. As with many sporting events the pubs that are right near to the station are the ones that get busy and packed the quickest. However, if you keep going down the High Street you will pass numerous other establishments and the further you carry on, the more room you will get and the quicker you will get served.
Our favourite is The George. If you cross over the road by the station turn left and keep walking for about 500 yds. As the road bears to the right, you will see it and it's about 4 doors down from Greggs (Little taste of Brum:-)). Reasonable amount of room in there and in the garden at the back, they normally have a BBQ from memory too. Big screens showing Football if it is on as well. It's about a 20/30 min walk to the ground from there, takes that long because of the sheer volume of people going to the game.
If you haven't been before, hope you have a fantastic day. I put going to International Rugby right at the top of my favourite days out I must admit.
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Great news Freddie has been called up to the squad for the Autumn Internationals and well done to Twelvetrees as well. JTH appears as though he is unfit and I can't think that he offers anything different to Barritt so it maybe a blessing.
Now the interesting part for Lancaster. Freddie is in there, he is clearly the form putside half in the country, so has Lancaster the balls to put him in the Matchday 22 next weekend?. Listening to Chris Foy from the Daily Mail on Talkshite last night, he doesn't seem to think so, but it would be a crying shame if he wasn't given an opportunity when he is in the form he currently is.
Looking at Clive Woodward's choice for England team was interesting as well. Back row of Robshaw, Saull and Easter. Half backs of Care, Cipriani. Three quarters of Burns, Armitage in the centres and Ashton, Wade and Brown as back three. His reasoning, he wants players with the X factor who will get the Twickenham Crowd off their feet and excited.
My backline now for Saturday would be Care, Burns, Barritt, Tuilagi, Sharples, Monye, Goode. Leave Floody till the Aussie game and lets see what Freddie can do. Ashton suspended and Joseph is injured, so that makes my mind up in the rest of the backs. And please, let's not have Waldrom at 8, a back row of Robshaw, Morgan and either Johnson or Wood please.
Am off to Headquarters this Saturday, next Saturday and for the NZ game on 1st December, so looking forward to seeing I hope a minimum of three wins.
I'm going against the Aussies. is Richmond the best place to drink pre-match?
I quite like Richmond, from the little I have seen of it, but never been there before the game. I do know that it is very popular though. The one aspect that puts me off is that you have either got to get a train or a bus or a massive walk to get to the ground.
We tend to go to the pubs in Twickenham itself. If you are heading there by train then come out of the station and turn left into Twickenham town centre, as opposed to going right towards the ground. As with many sporting events the pubs that are right near to the station are the ones that get busy and packed the quickest. However, if you keep going down the High Street you will pass numerous other establishments and the further you carry on, the more room you will get and the quicker you will get served.
Our favourite is The George. If you cross over the road by the station turn left and keep walking for about 500 yds. As the road bears to the right, you will see it and it's about 4 doors down from Greggs (Little taste of Brum:-)). Reasonable amount of room in there and in the garden at the back, they normally have a BBQ from memory too. Big screens showing Football if it is on as well. It's about a 20/30 min walk to the ground from there, takes that long because of the sheer volume of people going to the game.
If you haven't been before, hope you have a fantastic day. I put going to International Rugby right at the top of my favourite days out I must admit.
Thanks for that Dave. been once before against Italy, which was the only time before I joined the England Supporters Club that I could get tickets. So, this match will be my first taste of a competive fixture at Twickenham. I did go to Richmond due to it being on the tube. Nice enough place but a long walk to the stadium.
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Great news Freddie has been called up to the squad for the Autumn Internationals and well done to Twelvetrees as well. JTH appears as though he is unfit and I can't think that he offers anything different to Barritt so it maybe a blessing.
Now the interesting part for Lancaster. Freddie is in there, he is clearly the form putside half in the country, so has Lancaster the balls to put him in the Matchday 22 next weekend?. Listening to Chris Foy from the Daily Mail on Talkshite last night, he doesn't seem to think so, but it would be a crying shame if he wasn't given an opportunity when he is in the form he currently is.
Looking at Clive Woodward's choice for England team was interesting as well. Back row of Robshaw, Saull and Easter. Half backs of Care, Cipriani. Three quarters of Burns, Armitage in the centres and Ashton, Wade and Brown as back three. His reasoning, he wants players with the X factor who will get the Twickenham Crowd off their feet and excited.
My backline now for Saturday would be Care, Burns, Barritt, Tuilagi, Sharples, Monye, Goode. Leave Floody till the Aussie game and lets see what Freddie can do. Ashton suspended and Joseph is injured, so that makes my mind up in the rest of the backs. And please, let's not have Waldrom at 8, a back row of Robshaw, Morgan and either Johnson or Wood please.
Am off to Headquarters this Saturday, next Saturday and for the NZ game on 1st December, so looking forward to seeing I hope a minimum of three wins.
I'm going against the Aussies. is Richmond the best place to drink pre-match?
I quite like Richmond, from the little I have seen of it, but never been there before the game. I do know that it is very popular though. The one aspect that puts me off is that you have either got to get a train or a bus or a massive walk to get to the ground.
We tend to go to the pubs in Twickenham itself. If you are heading there by train then come out of the station and turn left into Twickenham town centre, as opposed to going right towards the ground. As with many sporting events the pubs that are right near to the station are the ones that get busy and packed the quickest. However, if you keep going down the High Street you will pass numerous other establishments and the further you carry on, the more room you will get and the quicker you will get served.
Our favourite is The George. If you cross over the road by the station turn left and keep walking for about 500 yds. As the road bears to the right, you will see it and it's about 4 doors down from Greggs (Little taste of Brum:-)). Reasonable amount of room in there and in the garden at the back, they normally have a BBQ from memory too. Big screens showing Football if it is on as well. It's about a 20/30 min walk to the ground from there, takes that long because of the sheer volume of people going to the game.
If you haven't been before, hope you have a fantastic day. I put going to International Rugby right at the top of my favourite days out I must admit.
Thanks for that Dave. been once before against Italy, which was the only time before I joined the England Supporters Club that I could get tickets. So, this match will be my first taste of a competive fixture at Twickenham. I did go to Richmond due to it being on the tube. Nice enough place but a long walk to the stadium.
Ahh, you have found out my secret too :-)
I have kept all my ticket stubs from every International I have been too and had a little count up the other day. This Saturday will be my 49th England game, so I reckon I should lead the team out the following week on the occasion of my "50th Cap". It's not too bad getting tickets for the Autumn games from the ERSC but still very difficult for the Six Nations, except Italy.
Wherever you end up, hope you enjoy it and maybe we will bump into each other if you go in the George?. I'll be the one in the black England away shirt :-)
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Great news Freddie has been called up to the squad for the Autumn Internationals and well done to Twelvetrees as well. JTH appears as though he is unfit and I can't think that he offers anything different to Barritt so it maybe a blessing.
Now the interesting part for Lancaster. Freddie is in there, he is clearly the form putside half in the country, so has Lancaster the balls to put him in the Matchday 22 next weekend?. Listening to Chris Foy from the Daily Mail on Talkshite last night, he doesn't seem to think so, but it would be a crying shame if he wasn't given an opportunity when he is in the form he currently is.
Looking at Clive Woodward's choice for England team was interesting as well. Back row of Robshaw, Saull and Easter. Half backs of Care, Cipriani. Three quarters of Burns, Armitage in the centres and Ashton, Wade and Brown as back three. His reasoning, he wants players with the X factor who will get the Twickenham Crowd off their feet and excited.
My backline now for Saturday would be Care, Burns, Barritt, Tuilagi, Sharples, Monye, Goode. Leave Floody till the Aussie game and lets see what Freddie can do. Ashton suspended and Joseph is injured, so that makes my mind up in the rest of the backs. And please, let's not have Waldrom at 8, a back row of Robshaw, Morgan and either Johnson or Wood please.
Am off to Headquarters this Saturday, next Saturday and for the NZ game on 1st December, so looking forward to seeing I hope a minimum of three wins.
I'm going against the Aussies. is Richmond the best place to drink pre-match?
I quite like Richmond, from the little I have seen of it, but never been there before the game. I do know that it is very popular though. The one aspect that puts me off is that you have either got to get a train or a bus or a massive walk to get to the ground.
We tend to go to the pubs in Twickenham itself. If you are heading there by train then come out of the station and turn left into Twickenham town centre, as opposed to going right towards the ground. As with many sporting events the pubs that are right near to the station are the ones that get busy and packed the quickest. However, if you keep going down the High Street you will pass numerous other establishments and the further you carry on, the more room you will get and the quicker you will get served.
Our favourite is The George. If you cross over the road by the station turn left and keep walking for about 500 yds. As the road bears to the right, you will see it and it's about 4 doors down from Greggs (Little taste of Brum:-)). Reasonable amount of room in there and in the garden at the back, they normally have a BBQ from memory too. Big screens showing Football if it is on as well. It's about a 20/30 min walk to the ground from there, takes that long because of the sheer volume of people going to the game.
If you haven't been before, hope you have a fantastic day. I put going to International Rugby right at the top of my favourite days out I must admit.
Thanks for that Dave. been once before against Italy, which was the only time before I joined the England Supporters Club that I could get tickets. So, this match will be my first taste of a competive fixture at Twickenham. I did go to Richmond due to it being on the tube. Nice enough place but a long walk to the stadium.
Ahh, you have found out my secret too :-)
I have kept all my ticket stubs from every International I have been too and had a little count up the other day. This Saturday will be my 49th England game, so I reckon I should lead the team out the following week on the occasion of my "50th Cap". It's not too bad getting tickets for the Autumn games from the ERSC but still very difficult for the Six Nations, except Italy.
Wherever you end up, hope you enjoy it and maybe we will bump into each other if you go in the George?. I'll be the one in the black England away shirt :-)
My pub of choice before a game at Twickenham is the Lord Nelson in Whitton (1 stop past Twickenham coming from Waterloo), turn right out of the station, down the high street and it's at the end on the left. gets a bit busy but it's only a 10 minute walk at the most to Twickenham.
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Team for saturday announced:
England team to face Fiji: Alex Goode (Saracens); Charlie Sharples (Gloucester), Manu Tuilagi (Leicester), Brad Barritt (Saracens), Ugo Monye (Harlequins); Toby Flood (Leicester), Danny Care (Harlequins); Joe Marler (Harlequins), Tom Youngs (Leicester), Dan Cole (Leicester), Tom Palmer (Wasps), Geoff Parling (Leicester), Tom Johnson (Exeter), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt), Thomas Waldrom (Leicester).
Replacements: David Paice (London Irish), David Wilson (Bath), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Tom Wood (Northampton), Ben Youngs (Leicester), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Burns and Twelvetrees not in the 23 is very frustrating, effectively means another season where we're unlikely to see much change from the 15 he's picked (except maybe the Italy game), and where he'll persist with the idea that Farrell has the open play skills to be an international 10. Not sure how flood is starting given the season he's had so far, he doesn't look like the best 10 in leicester, let alone the best 10 in england.
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Go Charlie!
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Team for saturday announced:
England team to face Fiji: Alex Goode (Saracens); Charlie Sharples (Gloucester), Manu Tuilagi (Leicester), Brad Barritt (Saracens), Ugo Monye (Harlequins); Toby Flood (Leicester), Danny Care (Harlequins); Joe Marler (Harlequins), Tom Youngs (Leicester), Dan Cole (Leicester), Tom Palmer (Wasps), Geoff Parling (Leicester), Tom Johnson (Exeter), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt), Thomas Waldrom (Leicester).
Replacements: David Paice (London Irish), David Wilson (Bath), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Tom Wood (Northampton), Ben Youngs (Leicester), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Burns and Twelvetrees not in the 23 is very frustrating, effectively means another season where we're unlikely to see much change from the 15 he's picked (except maybe the Italy game), and where he'll persist with the idea that Farrell has the open play skills to be an international 10. Not sure how flood is starting given the season he's had so far, he doesn't look like the best 10 in leicester, let alone the best 10 in england.
I like the lad Ford at Leicester too. However I think you are being more than a little unfair on Floody. Whenever England have played decent attacking Rugby over the last few years, he has been the fulcrum of it by playing nice and flat to the line and bringing the outside backs into play. Not sure if you saw his performance vs Ospreys, but he was absolutely brilliant in seeing Leicester to a win in a really competitive match.
That said, as I said above I was really hoping to see Burns start this weekend or at least be on the bench. I am totally with you on the subject of Owen Farrell as apart from kicking goals, I seriously don't know what he brings to the team. If Flood gets injured early on in a bigger game than Saturday, shudder !!!!. The only way to beat the TOP teams is by scoring tries. The days of Jonny winning it from his boot are well and truly over.
Overall it's pretty much close to the team I would have picked, given the injuries except I would have gone with Ben Morgan at 8. He is obviously the future and his break for Sharples try vs the French team the other week, is something that all other English 8's can only dream of.
If fit would like to see Joseph and Tuilagi have a run in the centres next week, move Manu too inside centre. Ashton will obviously come in for probably Sharples, but hope Sharples gets a run of games. Hoping that Lawes will be fit as well for the big games.
I believe that Lancaster is "live" on the Rugby Club on Sky tonight, so will be interesting if they ask him some searching questions on the subject of selection?.
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Got my England v Whiney Arsed Convicts tickets yesterday, looking forward to that encounter.
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Dave - I am being a bit harsh on Flood, I'm well aware of it, but I do think he's been average at club level for 18months. In the same time Burns has gone from exciting but inconsistent to being exceptional.
I just find it a very strange attitude to say you'll pick on performance and then select a guy who can't get a start at 10 and a guy who's got a real battle for his place at his club ahead of the form player in the country in that position.
I'm mostly happy with the team, I don't like Barritt and Tuilagi as a centre pairing, they should be competing for the same spot (along with Turner-Hall as the 3rd option). Then the other centre should be 1 of Joseph, Twelvetrees (who is the most complete player of the lot but not as exciting) and Waldouck, who has been let down for a couple of years by being in a poor wasps side.
The front 5 is right, Palmer should only be keeping the shirt warm for Lawes though, and I'm really excited that they went for Launchbury on the bench (who looks good at 2nd row or 6). Back row I really think Wood should be starting ahead of Johnson. I think people are forgetting a little too quickly just how good he was in the build up to the world cup. He had a lot of niggles last year but he's looking back to full fitness and has to play for me.
Care is the right choice at 9, looking on fire again this year and seems to have matured in the last year, Youngs should take a look.
Back 3 are probably the best options he had available, glad Goode got the nod, I think he's a far better player than Brown.
The bench scares me for backs, Johnny May and Freddie Burns in place of Farrell and Brown and we look like we've got really dangeous options, as is we have options to tighten us up if it's a close game and try to kick for the win (harsh on Brown but I don't think he's quick enough, strong enough, or skilful enough to be a top level FB, he looks fine in the premiership but struggles in europe and hasn't really offered much internationally, which suggests premiership club rugby is his level).
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Dave - I am being a bit harsh on Flood, I'm well aware of it, but I do think he's been average at club level for 18months. In the same time Burns has gone from exciting but inconsistent to being exceptional.
I just find it a very strange attitude to say you'll pick on performance and then select a guy who can't get a start at 10 and a guy who's got a real battle for his place at his club ahead of the form player in the country in that position.
I'm mostly happy with the team, I don't like Barritt and Tuilagi as a centre pairing, they should be competing for the same spot (along with Turner-Hall as the 3rd option). Then the other centre should be 1 of Joseph, Twelvetrees (who is the most complete player of the lot but not as exciting) and Waldouck, who has been let down for a couple of years by being in a poor wasps side.
The front 5 is right, Palmer should only be keeping the shirt warm for Lawes though, and I'm really excited that they went for Launchbury on the bench (who looks good at 2nd row or 6). Back row I really think Wood should be starting ahead of Johnson. I think people are forgetting a little too quickly just how good he was in the build up to the world cup. He had a lot of niggles last year but he's looking back to full fitness and has to play for me.
Care is the right choice at 9, looking on fire again this year and seems to have matured in the last year, Youngs should take a look.
Back 3 are probably the best options he had available, glad Goode got the nod, I think he's a far better player than Brown.
The bench scares me for backs, Johnny May and Freddie Burns in place of Farrell and Brown and we look like we've got really dangeous options, as is we have options to tighten us up if it's a close game and try to kick for the win (harsh on Brown but I don't think he's quick enough, strong enough, or skilful enough to be a top level FB, he looks fine in the premiership but struggles in europe and hasn't really offered much internationally, which suggests premiership club rugby is his level).
I think we are essentially singing from the same hymn sheet Paul. If we are going to win the World Cup again then we have to get a fly half with a bit of X factor such as Burns, Cipriani or Flood. Totally agree with you about the centres and as said before would like Tuilagi and Joseph to have a run of games. On the same page too in respect of Goode, a fine Footballer at 15.
I have been really impressed by Johnson this year, thought he was exceptional when he played for the Chiefs v Leinster earlier this season and he also played well in SA so haven't got a massive issue with him starting. I do think Wood will get in at some point soon and will be really interesting to see how they fit Wood, Croft and Robshaw into the same team?. Maybe they won't !!
I also couldn't agree with you more on having Burns and Jonny May as my subs for the outside backs. I think, you may know more than me, Jonny May has been injured hasn't he?. So versatile though and can cover wing and full back. If Burns was on the bench then Flood could cover inside centre. Easy this selection lark huh?
Anyway, hoping for 3 out of 4 the next month.
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Whoops, meant too say fly half with X Factor, Burns, Cipriani or Ford and not Flood.
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Great news Freddie has been called up to the squad for the Autumn Internationals and well done to Twelvetrees as well. JTH appears as though he is unfit and I can't think that he offers anything different to Barritt so it maybe a blessing.
Now the interesting part for Lancaster. Freddie is in there, he is clearly the form putside half in the country, so has Lancaster the balls to put him in the Matchday 22 next weekend?. Listening to Chris Foy from the Daily Mail on Talkshite last night, he doesn't seem to think so, but it would be a crying shame if he wasn't given an opportunity when he is in the form he currently is.
Looking at Clive Woodward's choice for England team was interesting as well. Back row of Robshaw, Saull and Easter. Half backs of Care, Cipriani. Three quarters of Burns, Armitage in the centres and Ashton, Wade and Brown as back three. His reasoning, he wants players with the X factor who will get the Twickenham Crowd off their feet and excited.
My backline now for Saturday would be Care, Burns, Barritt, Tuilagi, Sharples, Monye, Goode. Leave Floody till the Aussie game and lets see what Freddie can do. Ashton suspended and Joseph is injured, so that makes my mind up in the rest of the backs. And please, let's not have Waldrom at 8, a back row of Robshaw, Morgan and either Johnson or Wood please.
Am off to Headquarters this Saturday, next Saturday and for the NZ game on 1st December, so looking forward to seeing I hope a minimum of three wins.
I'm going against the Aussies. is Richmond the best place to drink pre-match?
I quite like Richmond, from the little I have seen of it, but never been there before the game. I do know that it is very popular though. The one aspect that puts me off is that you have either got to get a train or a bus or a massive walk to get to the ground.
We tend to go to the pubs in Twickenham itself. If you are heading there by train then come out of the station and turn left into Twickenham town centre, as opposed to going right towards the ground. As with many sporting events the pubs that are right near to the station are the ones that get busy and packed the quickest. However, if you keep going down the High Street you will pass numerous other establishments and the further you carry on, the more room you will get and the quicker you will get served.
Our favourite is The George. If you cross over the road by the station turn left and keep walking for about 500 yds. As the road bears to the right, you will see it and it's about 4 doors down from Greggs (Little taste of Brum:-)). Reasonable amount of room in there and in the garden at the back, they normally have a BBQ from memory too. Big screens showing Football if it is on as well. It's about a 20/30 min walk to the ground from there, takes that long because of the sheer volume of people going to the game.
If you haven't been before, hope you have a fantastic day. I put going to International Rugby right at the top of my favourite days out I must admit.
Thanks for that Dave. been once before against Italy, which was the only time before I joined the England Supporters Club that I could get tickets. So, this match will be my first taste of a competive fixture at Twickenham. I did go to Richmond due to it being on the tube. Nice enough place but a long walk to the stadium.
Ahh, you have found out my secret too :-)
I have kept all my ticket stubs from every International I have been too and had a little count up the other day. This Saturday will be my 49th England game, so I reckon I should lead the team out the following week on the occasion of my "50th Cap". It's not too bad getting tickets for the Autumn games from the ERSC but still very difficult for the Six Nations, except Italy.
Wherever you end up, hope you enjoy it and maybe we will bump into each other if you go in the George?. I'll be the one in the black England away shirt :-)
My pub of choice before a game at Twickenham is the Lord Nelson in Whitton (1 stop past Twickenham coming from Waterloo), turn right out of the station, down the high street and it's at the end on the left. gets a bit busy but it's only a 10 minute walk at the most to Twickenham.
ust about to mention this place. I used to live just up the road from the pub on Nelson Rd. decent boozer and not too difficult to get served in for a busy pub considering its location.
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Yeah I think we're pretty much in agreement then Dave.
My major issue with the England squad is how many picks (for the last 10 years) are based on someone's ability defensively whilst completely ignoring their lack of attacking ability or intent. Farrell is the latest example, a great defensive option as he tackles well, has decent positioning and will take the points when they're offered, but he offers nothing to the outside backs.
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Yeah I think we're pretty much in agreement then Dave.
My major issue with the England squad is how many picks (for the last 10 years) are based on someone's ability defensively whilst completely ignoring their lack of attacking ability or intent. Farrell is the latest example, a great defensive option as he tackles well, has decent positioning and will take the points when they're offered, but he offers nothing to the outside backs.
Oh God that has been my major issue too. I think the way Cipriani was treated by Johnson was a complete farce. When he picked him for the Internationals in 2008 he had only just come back to fitness from the horrendous ankle injury he had. Yes he had a couple of kicks charged down, but he just completely dropped and ignored him when I felt that he owed him something for putting his body on the line when he wasn't really ready. To see someone like Andy Goode play at 10 when DC wasn't was extremely irritating.
The media don't help either and this goes for most sports. They are continually telling us what people can't do and neglecting what they do bring to the table. I understand he has had injuries but as Stuart Barnes said the other day, Sinbad would be though of as Shane Williams is, if he had been Welsh.
We do seem to have a major problem with flair and creativity in this country and don't seem to trust it. However, Lancaster has made a good start to his tenure and I am hoping in future he will just pick on merit and for attacking flair and not because someone can tackle well.
Many more matches like the Cardiff game three weeks ago and Cipriani will be back as a major player in the England set up. I hope!!!!
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So does the team selection mean we can have our players back for the game tomorrow?
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So does the team selection mean we can have our players back for the game tomorrow?
yes, but they haven't been picked. Very young team selected
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Worth a watch on tv still I reckon. The Glaws academy has some very bright, young, attacking, ball playing types coming through.
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Glaws have 3-4 exceptional youngsters, and they'll be coming through just as May, trinder, sharples, burns, twelvetrees and Morgan are hitting their peak. Get the front 5 right and there's a superb team being built there.
EDIT
Just checked the glaws team for this weekend, Billy Burns on the Bench, supposed to be as good as his brother.
Dan Robson is the man though, I reckon he will be in the england squad before long, really good scrum half, can pass hard and flat off both hands and carries really well.
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I think the team is pretty fair on the whole. Although I would have given Joseph a go in the centre and Wood a go in the back row.
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I think the team is pretty fair on the whole. Although I would have given Joseph a go in the centre and Wood a go in the back row.
Joseph isn't fit as far as I'm aware, I know him, Marler and Lawes were all carrying knocks with Marler the most likely to make it, which seems to to be in line with the team he picked. I hope Joseph does get back in when he's fit, he's electric and, importantly, offers a diffferent threat to Manu, which makes them both harder to double up on. Barritt has a fantastic defense and plays the crash ball well but you become a little too focused on bludgeoning through the middle when him and manu play together.
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Great finish by Sharples for his first international try.
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Great finish by Sharples for his first international try.
indeed, poor defending but got himself into the position well and showed great awareness to finish.
Very very harsh yellow on Care, he lifted the leg but there's nothing dangerous in that.
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Extremely harsh yellow yeah. I think we'll take control now.
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That yellow is far less harsh, 10 pens in less than half an hour is asking for a yellow card.
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Terrible finish by England there.
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Terrible finish by England there.
Where Robshaw got help up? I agree on that one.
Sharples unlucky not to have a 2nd.
Goode has had a fantastic first half, really good awareness and excellent running lines.
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Cole should have scored.
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agreed, really poor decision to go in so 'tall' if you going to barge over you get your body low.
Fiji try sums up why I don't think Monye is good enough, got left for dead.
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Good to see England going wide when on the line, too often in the past we've tried to drive over and failed.
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Overall decent performance, obviously a bit rusty but some good performances. Tom Youngs had an excellent debut, and Goode was superb. Sharples will get the wing spot next to Ashton after a very good performance. Good to see Manu get a couple of tries and see Wood back in the international game.
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Stuart Barnes is an idiot generally but he got the call for motm spot on, Goode was superb, all our good play came through him. Highlights the lack of creativity in the centres though. The difficulty is Barritt and Manu both played well so dropping one of them is really harsh.
For me it was a good performance by everyone, a few errors on the line cost us another 15-20 points which wouldn't have flattered us too much.
The only issue for me is that, against a more organised side, we don't have the creativity when a side is set across the field.
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First chance I have had to get on here since I came back from the game on Saturday. Amazing how differently you see a game when you are there and then when you watch a re-run on the TV?. It was a decent performance but as you have said up above, I think we left at least 4/5 tries out there.
Forwards went well, big kudos to Tom Youngs who nailed every line out and his hands were brilliant in the loose. Will be a great impact sub when Hartley comes back in. Cole's work at rucktime for a prop is something to behold, he has to be the Lions tight head in Australia surely?. Was very impressed with Launchbury when he came on and would like to think he and Lawes will form a decent pair of Locks in time. At the game I thought that Waldrom was poor, he was slightly better than I thought when I watched it on the re-run but the amount of times we lost control at the base of the scrum was poor. I really want Ben Morgan to be re-instated and given a decent run. Robshaw led well and I thought Johnson was good too.
In the backs I thought the yellow was fair enough on Care at the time, not sure now and Flood was steady as usual. I think for an International centre Tuilagi's hands are absolutely shocking and he has no idea of how to draw a man and give a pass. He has too play, but not sure whether it should be 12 or even wing. Barritt had a steady game but I think Joseph should come back in as soon as possible. Said earlier that I thought Monye was a good choice, totally wrong on that. He is a crap finisher isn't he?. Sharples showed him how it was done on Saturday and should stay in the team for the Australia game.
Finally, well played Alex Goode. Was comfortably man of the match and he is just a serioulsly fine full back. When Foden is fit, I think he will have to play wing because Goode has nailed the 15 spot. The fact he comes in as second receiver and has a kicking game, is a big plus too.
Another top day out on Saturday, big kudos as well to my mate who necked 9 pints of Guinness in 90 mins before the game, to provide us with more entertainment. I am looking forward to doing it all again this Saturday
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I think any reasonable person would retain Sharples in the team over Moyne. However I think Sharples will be dropped. I also think Englands centres are too similar. You need one battering ram and one creator. Tuilagi is just a big lump.
I saw a kid of about 14 chucking his guts up near the north stand toilets at half time, we've all been there but perhaps not in front of 10,000 people!
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Dave - I agree totally with you on waldrom, during the game I thought he was really poor at times, but on the highlights it was just that his good work was all the dirty stuff and the showy stuff he normally does well just didn't happen, still carried well though. Robshaw and Johnson were ok but nothing more for me. Says everything about Robshaw as a 7 that Cole is easily our best player around the breakdown.
I'm fairly convinced we're currently a world class 7 away from having a seriously good squad going towards the 2015 world cup, we're a bit one dimensional in the backs but by then I'd expect Burns and Joseph to be established in the squad to give us that spark, and surely May and Wade will be in the squad then as well. The only other change would be that I expect Robson to get into the squad at 9.
Front row we need Vunipola to step then we'll have cole, marler, corbisiero and him as props with hartley and youngs between them, which should be competitive.
Parling, Launchbury, Lawes and Kitchener gives us a strong 2nd row and of those only Parling hasn't played a fair amount at back row as well, so they've all got ability in the loose.
At 8 morgan is an excellent prospect who should get better and better, but we haven't had a viable alternative show up yet. Waldrom is good but I think he's probably getting past his best already, so I'd be suprised if he's playing at the level in 3 years time. I'm optimistic of Billy Vunipola making the step up though, he's an absolute beast, just needs experience and stamina.
At 6 we've got the strongest set in the world. Tom Johnson started and he's probably 5th choice (behind croft, wood, haskell and robshaw) and then you've got Gaskell coming through and looking very much ready to make the step up.
But at 7... we're playing Robshaw out of position, Stefon Armitage has a black mark after failing to step up a few years back (deserves another shot though as he's far better domestically now than he was then) and then we have Matt Kvesic who has bags of potential but is being ruined by Worcester using him as a utility back row rather than a specialist 7 (which is the same problem we have with a number of others who've looked capable). Such a shame Tom Rees had his injuries, he'd have been so important for us.
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I think any reasonable person would retain Sharples in the team over Moyne. However I think Sharples will be dropped. I also think Englands centres are too similar. You need one battering ram and one creator. Tuilagi is just a big lump.
I saw a kid of about 14 chucking his guts up near the north stand toilets at half time, we've all been there but perhaps not in front of 10,000 people!
To be fair Lancaster seems fair and praised Sharples after the game.
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I'm not a big fan of Johnson to be honest, I'd much rather seem Wood playing. Waldrom had earnt his place due to his performances in South Africa, but was poor at the weekend and Morgan should be back in.
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Well I have been told that Waldrom is being put forward for interview at the England camp today, which suggests he will be playing No 8 on Saturday.
I think that Johnson is being treated a tad harshly on here as I thought he was excellent in South Africa and absolutely outstanding for Exeter in Dublin against Leinster and again good last weekend. That said, I tend to agree that we need to get Wood into the mix sooner rather than later, however he isn't playing that well this year.
I also think that for some reason Robshaw isn't fashionable and people are always trying to think of someone else too take his place?. Apart from anything else I would suggest he is probably the best captain England have had since Johnson and probably better becuase Johnno's team practically captained itself. People say he isn't an out and out seven, but he looks fair enough to me both for Quins and England. I would suggest that he is a good bet, as things stand, to lead the Lions next summer. Warburton has not been the same since he got sent off and Wales aren't picking their best 7 in Tipuric. Would back Robshaw against either of the Irish or Scots opensides.
My twitter source, I know I know ;-) seems to think that there will be changes on the wing, Ashton for Monye hopefully. In the back row, so I am deducing that Wood will be in for Johnson and also at lock, wondering if that is Launchbury for Palmer as Lawes playing for Northampton this week.
Finally on the subject of props, I agree we have depth there BUT the props you mentioned are all loosehead. We NEED to get back up for Cole and apart from Henry Thomas not sure who is coming through. Not convinced by Wilson at all.
Oh yes, agree on Billy Vunipola as well, get him in over the next 12 months please.
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The problem with robshaw is that he isn't good enough fighting for the ball on the floor. At 6 you can get away with it so logn as you're a strong tackler and work hard. A world class 7 needs to turn the ball over, stealing ball is so so important now that most top sides are great at recycling, you need to punish mistakes and Robshaw doesn't do it. Armitage is excellent at it and hence should be in the squad. The difficulty is that Robshaw, like our other 6s has great skills around the park so it's easy to want to keep him at 7 but I think he'll hold us back at the very top level.
Prop - I thought M.Vunipola played both sides, I might be wrong though. I had him in mind as covering for Cole. The problem with tight heads is that they tend to come through later, so you won't see any under 25-26 getting into premiership sides (even Cole was genuinely an understudy to castro until the last year or 2).
Johnson - not being harsh at all, it's purely that, with all being fully fit, he's probably 5th choice (I wouldn't want to pick between croft, wood and robshaw for 1st though). It's also important to note that he's the oldest in the group as well (although haskell might be around the same age as him).
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Croft is a cracking player as well, and will boost the squad when he's back.
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I don't think Robshaw is big enough to play at 6 or at 8 and openside is his best position. We do have quite a number of riches in the back row and I can't escape the thought that maybe the back row most people would like to see is Croft, Wood and Morgan?. For me though, as stated above, Robshaw is virtually the first name on the teamsheet at the moment. Let's see how he gets on in these next three weeks for a better idea of his quality as an international openside flanker.
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I don't think Robshaw is big enough to play at 6 or at 8 and openside is his best position. We do have quite a number of riches in the back row and I can't escape the thought that maybe the back row most people would like to see is Croft, Wood and Morgan?. For me though, as stated above, Robshaw is virtually the first name on the teamsheet at the moment. Let's see how he gets on in these next three weeks for a better idea of his quality as an international openside flanker.
I'd actually like to see Wood, Armitage, Morgan. Wood and Croft wouldn't be able to play together as they both like to do the same things, I just think Wood has better hands.
Armitage needs another look. He's been voted the top14 player of the year for last season, that easily the msot competitive league in europe currently so clearly he's playing well and his strength is exactly what England (and english teams in general) have struggled with in recent years, breaking up the steady, forward-based, rumbling attacks that go on for lots and lots of phases. The bottom line is, If he was playing like he is for an english side he'd be in the team.
I do agree that Robshaw is the best option we have (given the selection criteria) though and I agree he's done a very good job as captain and doesn't deserve to be dropped, which makes it all the more difficult. He played 6 when he was younger and developed as a 6, and even came into the quins side at 6 before moving across and that is very evident, he plays very much like a 6 playing on the wrong side, where he hangs off and takes a defensive cover position.
Ideally you want 7 or 13 to be the 2nd man to the tackle (for or against) with their job being to secure possession, neither of our 7 or 13 are good at that (Barritt is excellent at it, as he is in all defensive aspects, but is playing too close to the pack and would be in the way of a proper 7, him and Cole also make up for Robshaw's weakness in that area).
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I see Morgan dropped out of the squad again. Looks like Ashton and Sharples will be the wings which is exciting. I'm also glad to see Botha is dropping down the pecking order, don't rate him at all.
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I see Morgan dropped out of the squad again. Looks like Ashton and Sharples will be the wings which is exciting. I'm also glad to see Botha is dropping down the pecking order, don't rate him at all.
Seems as though my twitter source was correct about Waldrom then. Really hoping that Morgan gets a chance in the remaining two matches. I'm more upset that Joseph has been released if truth be told, although I expected it, I really think we need to get him in that team at outside centre and build the rest of the midfield around him.
Would like to see Launchbury start and although as I said above, would be harsh on Johnson, I would like Wood to come into the back row. I would also start Youngs in this game at scrum half.
Four changes for me then, Ashton, Launchbury, Wood and Youngs. However, I would then say that a bench of Vunipola, Wilson, Paice, Palmer, Johnson, Care, Farrell and Brown doesn't have a lot of game changers if we are behind?.
Lancaster has done heaps correctly in the last 12 months, but there are some tricky decisions to be made over the next 6 months and it will involve leaving some players who have done well for him out.
England by 10 on Saturday
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I see Morgan dropped out of the squad again. Looks like Ashton and Sharples will be the wings which is exciting. I'm also glad to see Botha is dropping down the pecking order, don't rate him at all.
Seems as though my twitter source was correct about Waldrom then. Really hoping that Morgan gets a chance in the remaining two matches. I'm more upset that Joseph has been released if truth be told, although I expected it, I really think we need to get him in that team at outside centre and build the rest of the midfield around him.
Would like to see Launchbury start and although as I said above, would be harsh on Johnson, I would like Wood to come into the back row. I would also start Youngs in this game at scrum half.
Four changes for me then, Ashton, Launchbury, Wood and Youngs. However, I would then say that a bench of Vunipola, Wilson, Paice, Palmer, Johnson, Care, Farrell and Brown doesn't have a lot of game changers if we are behind?.
Lancaster has done heaps correctly in the last 12 months, but there are some tricky decisions to be made over the next 6 months and it will involve leaving some players who have done well for him out.
England by 10 on Saturday
Change that bench to:
Vunipola, Wilson, HARTLEY, LAWES, Johnson, Care, BURNS and JOSEPH
and it looks fantastic
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I see Morgan dropped out of the squad again. Looks like Ashton and Sharples will be the wings which is exciting. I'm also glad to see Botha is dropping down the pecking order, don't rate him at all.
Seems as though my twitter source was correct about Waldrom then. Really hoping that Morgan gets a chance in the remaining two matches. I'm more upset that Joseph has been released if truth be told, although I expected it, I really think we need to get him in that team at outside centre and build the rest of the midfield around him.
Would like to see Launchbury start and although as I said above, would be harsh on Johnson, I would like Wood to come into the back row. I would also start Youngs in this game at scrum half.
Four changes for me then, Ashton, Launchbury, Wood and Youngs. However, I would then say that a bench of Vunipola, Wilson, Paice, Palmer, Johnson, Care, Farrell and Brown doesn't have a lot of game changers if we are behind?.
Lancaster has done heaps correctly in the last 12 months, but there are some tricky decisions to be made over the next 6 months and it will involve leaving some players who have done well for him out.
England by 10 on Saturday
Change that bench to:
Vunipola, Wilson, HARTLEY, LAWES, Johnson, Care, BURNS and JOSEPH
and it looks fantastic
Indeed and a bench capable of making an impact is vital.
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Ashton is the only change for the game. Not overly surprised, would have liked to see Wood and Morgan in but overall pretty happy.
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Speaking of Wood's and props, what the fuck has Nick Wood done wrong?
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Samoa win in Wales, Samoa played really well but Wales have completely fallen apart.
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Well deserved by Samoa, they missed 13 points in kicks as well. Where of Wales go from here? ABs next week!
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it's fairly typical of wales in recent times, every time they start to look decent they overhype them, get unrealistic expectations, and then they fail again. I find it quite amusing that whenever England are having a tough time of it Wales play well but as soon as we start to look like a good side again Wales fall apart. Has been the same for the last 20 odd years.
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Big game for us today, we need to win.
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Today summed up all of our problems:
Flood isn't a threat from 10 because he's isn't quick enough or elusive enough to beat his man.
The centres are just too similar.
Robshaw isn't aggressive enough in the tight to play openside, against a quality 7 he disappears.
We had field position and possession enough to win, but didn't have the ability to expose them.
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Well Johnson shouldn't play for England again, Wood is a million times the player. Also Marler, Palmer and Care should be dropped. Desperately disappointing and poor.
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Marler cannot scrummage ergo he is never going to make it as an international prop.
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Freddie Burns played well for Glaws. And we had a Morgan hat trick to enjoy as well.
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Freddie Burns played well for Glaws. And we had a Morgan hat trick to enjoy as well.
Neither should've been available but nice to see they did the business at club level, fingers cross they're missing for glaws for a couple of weeks now, england need defense breakers and they're 2 of the best in the league.
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I dont give a toss about England, we need them vs Sale next week.
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I still can't get my head around Morgan not being picked. On the game itself, I was suprised we didn't dominate the scrum and we should of took the 3 points every time it became available in the second half.
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I still can't get my head around Morgan not being picked. On the game itself, I was suprised we didn't dominate the scrum and we should of took the 3 points every time it became available in the second half.
I don't fault Robshaw for going for the tries, I fault the selection policy that has left us incapable of finishing those chances despite having some superb finishers in the country. I still think the centres is the biggest problem and will be so long as he persists with the current side, Ashton and Sharples looked lost because no good ball got to them form set plays, it was only when we had broken field and the ball was with Robshaw and Wood (or a couple of times Goode) that either winger had the chance to open their stride and take people on. With 2 crash centres, neither of whom has particularly good hands, it's hard to get good ball out wide without loopy passes from 10, which are risky as can be against the top sides.
As it stands I'd drop Manu and bring Joseph in at 12 with Barritt moving out 1. Harsh on Manu who is scoring but Barritt does the basics better and Manu is a great option on the bench (in place of Brown, If a winger goes off Jospeh and Manu can both move out there). I'd like Foden to come in on the wing (when fit) to give us quality fullback cover if Goode takes a knock, in the meantime Sharples can probably cover there reasonably well as he's good under the high ball, kicks well and has a good rugby brain. Burns then has to be the backup for 10 to give us game changers in the backs on the bench. Currently we have a kicking option in Farrell who weakens our attack and a full back who's coming on to the wing and, whilst getting involved, just isn't good enough for international rugby.
At 9 I think Youngs and Care are too similar, I'd like an alternative and still think Dickson is the only viable choice. Robson will stroll into the side in a couple of years, his basic skills are already well ahead of anyone we have, just needs to get his game management right, which will come with experience, so he;'s not quite ready yet.
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First time had chance to get on here since coming back from the game Saturday and to be honest I was so gutted and still am, by the result and more especially the performance.
I saw Woodward on Sky when I got home and agreed with him that we lost the game in the first half, when bizarrely we were ahead. I would just say one word on the whole thing from England's point of view, TEMPO. And there was none on Saturday.
We have always, a bit like Villa, played our best Rugby when we play with a bit of tempo, quick taps and moving the ball out of contact. Was just so slow on Saturday and we were constantly taking the ball behind the gainline. We don't commit enough forwards to any ruck, for fear of what might happen if we turn it over and as a result it's all very stodgy.
Felt so sorry for Sharples and Ashton on Saturday as they may just as well have been sat with me in the South Stand. Any winger who plays outside Manu may as well give up on getting any passes because he doesn't look or think, he just looks for the first person he can run into. On the odd occasion he does pass, as Paul says above, he is crap. Point of fact, wouldn't it be Barritt at 12 and JJ at 13 and not the other way around?. They won't drop Tuilagi anyway, so not going to happen.
Biggest shock was how poor our forwards were, they were so soft. I see Marler is hurt now and I thought that at the time, so why wasn't he brought off in the first half?. I still fail to see what Waldrom brings to the party, although stats say he made more carry's and made more metres than any other forward. And I may have to eat my words about Robshaw at 7.
With all that, this is my 23 for the Boks
Corbs
Youngs
Cole
Launchbury
Parling
Wood
Morgan
Robshaw
Youngs
Flood
Sharples
Barritt
Joseph
Ashton
Goode
Vunipola
Paice
Wilson
Lawes (if fit enough for bench)
Haskell
Care
Burns
Tuilagi
Not sure Lawes is fit, if he was he would be in the team. Hoping he is fit enough for the bench.
And finally, the kit was bad enough, but please please, can we never endure a National Anthem sung like that ever again. Totally and utterly ruined it.
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Point of fact, wouldn't it be Barritt at 12 and JJ at 13 and not the other way around?. They won't drop Tuilagi anyway, so not going to happen.
Probably would be but it shouldn't be in my opinion, I prefer a creative 12 inside a bustling 13, 13 should be capable of covering for the back row in clearing out the ruck when play gets stretched.
I mostly agree with your 15. Robshaw suffered exactly as I expected, he's not aggressive to counter a top class opposition 7. McCaw will destroy him, it's not that he's a bad player, it's that he's just not suited to play 7 at the highest level, he may be good enough to play 6 but Croft and Wood are probably ahead of him there. The shame is I like him as a player and as a captain.
Reflecting on it a little more I think Youngs at hooker is probably a little too inexperienced as well, add Marler not being fit and our front row failed to dominate a team that we should have walked all over. Corbs and Hartley in there and we'd have been far more powerful.
Oh, and agree totallly on Launchbury getting a start, he looks the real deal, him and Lawes, along with Parling and Kitchener should be our 2nd row options until the world cup, they're all great modern 2nd rows who are good around the park, tackle and pass like back rows but are still big strong guys in the pack.
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Waldrom and Johnson drop out of squad which I'm glad to see. Sharples is unlucky, but I think they're going to play Tuilagi on the wing and put JJ in the centre.
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England team to face South Africa: Alex Goode (Saracens, 4 caps); Chris Ashton (Saracens, 27 caps), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 15 caps), Brad Barritt (Saracens, 9 caps), Mike Brown (Harlequins, 9 caps); Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers, 52 caps), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 26 caps); Alex Corbisiero (London Irish, 16 caps), Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 2 caps), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 33 caps), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 2 caps), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers, 10 caps), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 11 caps), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt, 10 caps), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 7 caps).
Replacements: David Paice (London Irish, 4 caps), David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 21 caps), Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 2 caps), Mouritz Botha (Saracens, 9 caps), Hames Haskell (London Wasps, 43 caps), Danny Care (Harlequins, 35 caps), Owen Farrell (Saracens, 10 caps), Jonathan Joseph (London Irish, 3 caps).
Well that's a little more like the correct balance to the team for me. I can't find fault with the forwards, in the absence of Lawes and Croft I think this is about as strong as we have. Am aware of the lack of a "fetcher" in the pack though. But chuffed Launchbury starts.
Delighted that Youngs is back with Flood as I think they are both better players with each other than with the likes of Care and Farrell and as things stand, are probably the obvious picks at half back. I do worry about the centres and I was hoping that Joseph would get a run out, but at least he is on the bench with a chance to influence matters in the 2nd half. At the start of the week I thought that Manu would be moved to the wing to replace Sharples but I think they have picked Brown to deal with the inevitable barrage of box kicks and high balls from the Saffas. We also need to kick a lot better than we have the last two weekends and again, Brown will help with this.
Let's hope this is the first of a home "win double" on Saturday afternoon
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I'm happy with most of that team, the forward slook a lot stronger. I'm not too sure about Brown on the wing though.
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I'm happy with most of that team, the forward slook a lot stronger. I'm not too sure about Brown on the wing though.
Agreed, pack looks good.
I'm not convinced by the backs. He's still persisting with Barritt and Manu which I can't see working and I'm have huge reservations about Brown (as you may have guessed). I still think Farrell offers little on the bench.
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i dont mind from a Glaws perspective but, really, still no sodding Freddie Burns? Criminal.
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Good start, Brown did well.
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Farrell on and he need to perform well.
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Actually it was blood so maybe not.
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Not good enough Flood, 6 points gone already and we're playing quite well.
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Scrum good, line out poor.
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Scrum good, line out poor.
kicking terrible. Flood has had a really poor half there.
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Very lucky try for SA.
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Flood has had a shocker.
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What's frustrating is that this is a very even game, but one fluke try is the difference at the moment.
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We've done well in last 15 minutes here.
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Robshaw what were you doing?
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We were better this week, but terrible decision at the end by Robshaw and shocking performance by Flood those missed kicks cost us.
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for all the comments about the decisions last week I never thought robshaw got those wrong but the decision today was terrible, even if we'd won the ball clean scoring from your own half against SA was always going to be a nearly impossible task (they'd have given us a penalty in our own half).
Manu, yet again, offers a threat but nullifies the rest of the team too much.
Brown did better than I expected but still made the wrong decisions at key times.
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Brown isn't a winger. Launchbury really impressed me, Flood was piss poor. Barritt and Manu can't both play.
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Aside from the odd decision, yet again Robshaw was outclassed as a 7, he carries well but he's had a couple of very poor weeks where his lack of ability around the ruck has really shown. Whenever we got close they slowed the ball down (just about legally) far too easily, robshaw should be stopping that. We just don't generate quick ball in the 22 and a good 7 is key to doing that.
Flood should be dropped after today, he was really poor, not just by missing the kicks, but in general his tactical kicking was awful (Farrell made the same mistakes as well) and his general play was very average.
I'm not sure why Botha for Launchbury was made as an impact sub but JJ was left on the bench, particularly given how much JJ scarewd them in the summer.
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Brown isn't a winger. Launchbury really impressed me, Flood was piss poor. Barritt and Manu can't both play.
Spot on. That's my biggest issue with him being picked in the 22. He's not as good a FB as Foden or Goode and he's not a winger so he's started on the wing despite the reality being that he's our 3rd choice fullback (personally I put Olly Morgan ahead of him as well but he'll never make it with his injuries). I'd rather see us pick sharples in the side to provide some attacking threat. It's odd that we seem so eager to pick wingers for defensive reasons in England and then complain that we're not a free flowing side like NZ and Oz.
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Botha is a shocking player, never should be on his handling skills are appalling. Robshaw being questioned by the team for his decision is a bit of a concern as well.
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Problems at ten? Burns, ahem, that's Freddie Burns...
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Robinson has resigned as Scotland coach.
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I am not sure why. They only lost by a short margin to Tonga.....
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Tonga cheated, you're not supposed to score tries.
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Burns and Wood both called up by England. Glos absolutely destroyed Sale on Saturday but the weather meant no chance of a bonus point.
Also met Nigel Davies in Cheltenham after and he's a thoroughly good bloke. The futures bright.
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Burns and Wood both called up by England. Glos absolutely destroyed Sale on Saturday but the weather meant no chance of a bonus point.
Also met Nigel Davies in Cheltenham after and he's a thoroughly good bloke. The futures bright.
Burns has been with the squad for most of the autumn before being sent back to glaws, hopefully he'll stay around in the 22 this time, but debut against the all blacks is a bit much to ask.
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This has been a sobering Autumn hasn't it?. Before it started I was looking at winning 3/4 to build on the encouraging start by Lancaster. I can't honestly say that we have deserved anything more than we have got out of each of the games.
On Saturday I thought the forwards were okay to be fair. We seemed to have the edge at scrum time, although not sure how legal Corbs scrummaging was and we committed more players to the breakdown as well which was positive. Line out we were very wobbly, but not sure how much of that fault lies with Youngs or the jumpers?.
So the forwards were okay and then we come to the conundrum that is the backs. In terms of handling and passing we bloody woeful is all I can say. Youngs box kicking was a massive improvement on Care and I just think he brings more to the table, but I know it's a close call between them. Flood didn't have his greatest game, but what chance have you got when the centres are just two big bruisers like Barritt and Manu?. We go from side to side so nicely and no one, except Ashton, ever cuts a line or tries to straighten or fixes a man. I guess Goode does it a little, but that is it. Why oh why wasn't Joseph brought on at some stage?.
The sum result of all of that was we created nothing of note, apart from a charge down at the start and Manu's interception. Brown did okay on his start, but he is a full back and not a winger and oh for a May, Wade or Sharples when Ashton got the ball from Manu's break?.
Looks like Flood has now been ruled out of the AB's game and the interesting call would be to give Burns the start. We all know that isn't going to happen and Golden bollox Farrell will play. No point in Ashton, Brown or Goode playing in that case, they will never see the ball.
New Zealand by 40 pts if they can be @rsed.
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As bad as it sounds I'm quite relieved things have gone the way they have.
No one can have missed how little decent ball we generate for the wings or how dated our kicking game is. Hopefulyl an autumn of 3 defeats in 4 following a summer of defeats will open up their eyes that, to take on the best, we need to score from our chances.
We have a very good pack who work well as a unit and get us into positions for the runners in the backs to go at people, but the lack of basic skills in the midfield means we never take those chances. Come the 6N we need to see a wind change to move us towards playing the rugby our outside backs will thrive on.
We all know Ashton can score, his lack of tries keeps getting brought up as his problem but it isn't it's a team problem. We have one of the best finishers in world rugby and can't create a sniff for him.
As an aside, how much do you reckon you'd have to offer Lawes to give Farrell a couple of big hits, not enough to stop him playing, but enough to restrict him to no more than a half?
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Getting Ashton the ball is an absolute must and the backline should be geared to that. He's one of the best wingers in world rugby.
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Getting Ashton the ball is an absolute must and the backline should be geared to that. He's one of the best wingers in world rugby.
Like many English sports teams, we appear geared to stopping the opposition rather than creating anything ourselves. This results in a mindset of going out not too lose, rather than trying to win. What also happens is that we are too worried about what people can't do, rather than what they can. And as a result of all this, we end up ruining careers like Danny Cipriani because he is that little bit different?
What I wouldn't give for a backline of Youngs, Burns, Twelvetrees, Joseph, May, Ashton and Goode in the 6 nations. Have the two kickers options and gas to burn and most importantly, some decent passers in the team.
However that won't happen because we have to be worried about what big bad Jamie Roberts will do should he come thundering down the 10 channel.
I can't express just how racked off I currently am with the England team at the moment. They have had a marvellous opportunity to make a statement this Autumn and have completely flunked it and worse than that, have been as boring to watch as they ever were under the tenure of Johnson, Wells etc etc
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This is going to be a bit of a case of being smug, but what we're seeing is exactly what I thought might happen under Lancaster. At the time I said on here a few times that I wasn't convinced he was the right choice and I'm still not.
As you say, like so many sports people in the UK the mentality has switched from going for the win, to stopping the other team from winning. You can always tell when a team has been formed that way because you end up with a massive over reliance on 1 person to turn the game. For england that's Manu currently. The game plan is, keep it tight, kick the points on offer, trundle over in the forwards from close range and hope Manu breaks the line and creates something from nothing every now and then.
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This is going to be a bit of a case of being smug, but what we're seeing is exactly what I thought might happen under Lancaster. At the time I said on here a few times that I wasn't convinced he was the right choice and I'm still not.
As you say, like so many sports people in the UK the mentality has switched from going for the win, to stopping the other team from winning. You can always tell when a team has been formed that way because you end up with a massive over reliance on 1 person to turn the game. For england that's Manu currently. The game plan is, keep it tight, kick the points on offer, trundle over in the forwards from close range and hope Manu breaks the line and creates something from nothing every now and then.
I wanted Mallett but after the Six Nations we had there was no way they weren't giving it too Lancaster and I guess on that basis he deserved the job. The stupid decision to go for an interim coach was the catalyst to that. They should have picked their man, Mallett and if he couldn't start to the summer then fair enough, then appoint an Interim coach not the other way around.
Lancaster has and can still do a decent job, but I do think they need some fresh thinking, which is what I thought was going to happen with the appointment of Wayne Smith. I don't think that either Farrell or Catt have served anything like enough time learning their trade to warrant being part of an International coaching set up.
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I think there's still plenty of credit in the bank for Lancaster. He just needs to be a bit more flexible in his thinking. I think he will be or the likes of Burns, Joseph and Launchbury wouldn't be included in the squads.
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I think there's still plenty of credit in the bank for Lancaster. He just needs to be a bit more flexible in his thinking. I think he will be or the likes of Burns, Joseph and Launchbury wouldn't be included in the squads.
I can't decide, he seems quite brave with decisions around the forwards, with players like Tom Youngs, Vunipola, Launchbury among others all being given a chance to earn their spot but in the backs he's very determined to pick players who are regarded as defensively solid and is sacrificing attacking intent to do, Farrell, Barritt, Monye all point towards a predominantly defensive mindset. Given a choice of Burns and Farrell I can't see many other international coaches going with Farrell, ditto the lack of game time for Joseph who at the very least should have been on for 20 minutes on saturday and would have been for most other nations in that situation.
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I think there's still plenty of credit in the bank for Lancaster. He just needs to be a bit more flexible in his thinking. I think he will be or the likes of Burns, Joseph and Launchbury wouldn't be included in the squads.
I can't decide, he seems quite brave with decisions around the forwards, with players like Tom Youngs, Vunipola, Launchbury among others all being given a chance to earn their spot but in the backs he's very determined to pick players who are regarded as defensively solid and is sacrificing attacking intent to do, Farrell, Barritt, Monye all point towards a predominantly defensive mindset. Given a choice of Burns and Farrell I can't see many other international coaches going with Farrell, ditto the lack of game time for Joseph who at the very least should have been on for 20 minutes on saturday and would have been for most other nations in that situation.
Yeah it is a concern, but hopefully he'll see this soon.
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England team to face New Zealand: 15. Alex Goode (Saracens, 5 caps); 14. Chris Ashton (Saracens, 28 caps), 13. Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 16 caps), 12. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 10 caps), Mike Brown (Harlequins, 10 caps); 10. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 11 caps), 9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 27 caps); 1. Alex Corbisiero (London Irish, 17 caps), 2. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 3 caps), 3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 34 caps), 4. Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 3 caps), 5. Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers, 11 caps), 6. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 12 caps), 7. Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt, 11 caps), 8. Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 8 caps)
Replacements: 16. David Paice (London Irish, 5 caps), 17. David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 22 caps), 18. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 3 caps), 19. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 14 caps), 20. James Haskell (London Wasps, 44 caps), 21. Danny Care (Harlequins, 36 caps), 22. Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped), 23. Jonathan Joseph (London Irish, 3 caps)
Team as I feared !!!.
Firstly the positives, I really do like the look of the pack and they played well last week and should be give an opportunity to build on that. I guess from what people would percieve as our first choice pack we are missing Hartley, Lawes and Croft from the starting 8. Add these three in and one or two others and we are starting to get a decent pack of forwards again?
I also love the look of the bench with Lawes, Haskell and Vunipola to bring some power on to the field in the second half.
Negatives : What a thoroughly depressing set of backs that is?. It has got very little going for it in my eyes and I can't quite believe we have gone through the entire Autumn series and picked Barritt and Tuilagi every single game?.
This team is set up, in a McLeish type way, of damage limitation and going out there not too lose, as opposed to trying to win. If Farrell is the answer then goodness only knows what the question is. He can't get a game at 10 for Sarries, so why in heavens name is he being picked in that position for England?. Ashton and Brown may as well come and sit with me in the North Stand, because I have as much chance of getting a pass as them.
I really hope I am proven wrong and we will "give it a lash" on Saturday, but I just can't see it. I think it's a team picked to try and keep the ball and hope to sneak 4/5 pens and win 15/9 or something. I hope if Burns and JJ come on, we aren't too far adrift so that they won't have a chance to influence matters.
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Yeah the backline isn't too inspiring. I'd have Youngs, Tuilagi, Ashton and Goode in the team.
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Yeah the backline isn't too inspiring. I'd have Youngs, Tuilagi, Ashton and Goode in the team.
So would I. Youngs and Burns at half backs, Tuilagi and Joseph in the centres and Ashton, Goode and Sharples as my back three. These are of the players currently available for him to pick.
Once the New Year comes around and he is able to make some changes I am hoping to see what I said above :
Youngs, Burns, Twelvetrees, Joseph, May, Ashton and Goode. Tuilagi as an impact sub.
Add in players like Wade, Sharples, Sinbad, Eastmond, Biggs, Brown, Foden etc then we have numerous decent choices in the back three.
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England team to face New Zealand: 15. Alex Goode (Saracens, 5 caps); 14. Chris Ashton (Saracens, 28 caps), 13. Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 16 caps), 12. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 10 caps), Mike Brown (Harlequins, 10 caps); 10. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 11 caps), 9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 27 caps); 1. Alex Corbisiero (London Irish, 17 caps), 2. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 3 caps), 3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 34 caps), 4. Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 3 caps), 5. Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers, 11 caps), 6. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 12 caps), 7. Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt, 11 caps), 8. Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 8 caps)
Replacements: 16. David Paice (London Irish, 5 caps), 17. David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 22 caps), 18. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 3 caps), 19. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 14 caps), 20. James Haskell (London Wasps, 44 caps), 21. Danny Care (Harlequins, 36 caps), 22. Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped), 23. Jonathan Joseph (London Irish, 3 caps)
Team as I feared !!!.
Firstly the positives, I really do like the look of the pack and they played well last week and should be give an opportunity to build on that. I guess from what people would percieve as our first choice pack we are missing Hartley, Lawes and Croft from the starting 8. Add these three in and one or two others and we are starting to get a decent pack of forwards again?
I also love the look of the bench with Lawes, Haskell and Vunipola to bring some power on to the field in the second half.
Negatives : What a thoroughly depressing set of backs that is?. It has got very little going for it in my eyes and I can't quite believe we have gone through the entire Autumn series and picked Barritt and Tuilagi every single game?.
This team is set up, in a McLeish type way, of damage limitation and going out there not too lose, as opposed to trying to win. If Farrell is the answer then goodness only knows what the question is. He can't get a game at 10 for Sarries, so why in heavens name is he being picked in that position for England?. Ashton and Brown may as well come and sit with me in the North Stand, because I have as much chance of getting a pass as them.
I really hope I am proven wrong and we will "give it a lash" on Saturday, but I just can't see it. I think it's a team picked to try and keep the ball and hope to sneak 4/5 pens and win 15/9 or something. I hope if Burns and JJ come on, we aren't too far adrift so that they won't have a chance to influence matters.
He clearly feels manu and barritt is working. That's what scares me the most.
Bold bit. - The most depressing thing is that Farrell, a guy totally out of his depth at international level who's only real value is as an american football style special team kicker, has been shortlisted for the irb player of the year, it's about as shocking a choice as I can imagine. This is a guy who has clear flaws in his game and can't get a start without an injury in his position.
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I haven't updated you lately. Stourbridge turned over second placed Hull Ionians last week to record another try bonus point win. The same as every other game this season.
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Popped into the office this morning so back in time for the England game. Farrell is kicking like shit at the moment but the Kiwis are worse!
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Carter has just shelled a simple looking kick.
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3-0 England. They look a bit rattled at the minute the All Blacks. It will never last.
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Blimey. Carter has missed another.
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6-0 England. We have them in allsorts at the breakdown.
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9-0 England, drop goal. 2 minutes to half time.
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12-0 England. Penalty on the stroke of half time.
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5 minutes in second half. 15-0 England.
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The comeback begins. Try for Savea. 15-7. The penalty that started it should not have been given.
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Try for Reid. Missed tackles cost us and Farrell missed touch. 15-14.
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Try Barritt! Line break from Farrell and well fininshed. Farrell hits the bar with the conversion from wide. 20-14. Crowd are bang at it.
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58 minutes. Tuilagi bashed a big hole and Ashton is in at the corner. Poor kick from Farrell. 25-14.
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61 minutes. Interception. Tuilagi takes it off Carters hands and runs 50 metres to score. Farrell converts. 32-14.
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For all the critics of him, Farrell is having a blinder in every aspect of the game.
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Don't get too excited - Offside McCaw's Harlem Globetrotters always end up winners in the end :-(
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Carter off, Burns is on and nearly scored immediately. He kicked the penalty after though. We are all over them. 35-14.
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Burns is running the show here and we are smashing them up front.
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Another penalty at the breakdown. Freddie strokes it home with ease. 38-14, eight to play.
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Vunipola in the bin for a stupid challenge. Savea in with 5 minutes left. 38-21.
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England win! 38-21. Fabulous performance.
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That was incredible and it also showed the backline didn't lack talent(like I thought) it was confidence. Once they starting scoring the passing became sharp(Farrell) and the lines that were run were brilliant. Magnificent performance.
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I never saw that coming! Awesome.
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Brilliant win. I love living in New Zealand after results like this as I get sick of hearing how great the All Blacks are all the time (it's like living with a whole population of Manure fans at times).
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Now That's What I Call Rugby ! In a bit like the Villa at the moment, we have an England team that are growing up together. I wouldn't have gven Man of the Match to Tom Wood - I would have given it to the whole team. Rugby is not like football where 1 player can have a huge effect on a game, the interaction between the forwards and the backs leads to a team victory in the modern era - The days of a trundling pack of forwards winning a game are thankfully over. Another huge factor in England's victory was George Clancy, the referee. He did not fall for the All Blacks, and in particular Richie McCaw, sealing off the ball at the breakdown and just plainly being in offside positions or entering rucks straight from the side. Owen Farrell had his best game for England, but the introduction of Freddie Burns saw one of the best miss passes I have seen for some time stright into the recipient's 'bread basket' not to his shoulders leaving a big target or his knees leaving no latitude for the player to make serious yardage. We still have Ben Foden and Dylan Hartley amongst others for instance easing their ways back after injury and George Ford who I think will be England's number 10 inside 18 months to come into the squad. And that is the reality, England are building a squad and have a coach in Stuart Lancaster that understands and can relate to players in that well liked teacher, that he is, way. Roll on the 6 Nations !
P.S I was gutted to see that Wales had lost in the last minute to continue a losing run of 7 games - Amazing how quiet the Welsh are after crowing from the highest roofs about last season's Grand Slam when they were extremely lucky to win at Twickenham.
P.P.S Quiz question for the future or "What Happened Next" on Qurstion of Sport - Has there ever been a previous occcasion when one international captain's partner sang the the other team's national anthem before a game like Camilla Kerslake, partner of Chris Robshaw, did in singing the New Zealand national anthem yesterday ? Turns out her dad is a Kiwi !
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I think the ABs were off their game and whilst England took advantage well, the concern is that this game was a flash in the pan rather than the South Africa and Australia ones.
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Really good performance. This front 5 is immense and wood is an exceptional talent (give him a run of 10 caps without injuries, etc and he'll be the best 6 in the world). Morgan and Robshaw both played really well too which led to us bossing it in the set pieces and in the tight.
1st half was very much as expected, Farrell kicking points at every opportunity but us not really looking like getting tries, but being solid defensively, combined with a poor all blacks performance gave us meant that was really valuable. 2nd half started the same way and I think no score from the ABs would've seen us grind it out. However when they got back in to it we did the unexpected and started looking to draw the tackles and make space for each other. Manu in particular played in a way I've never seen before, looking to get the ball away and the timings of passing was much better, with us making sure the tackler was committed every time.
Burns gave a glimpse of how good this side could be with a more progressive 10 and needs a lot more game time in the 6N to show if he can deliver.
I reckon I need to back down a little on the criticism of Mike Brown, who played superbly yesterday.
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I think the ABs were off their game and whilst England took advantage well, the concern is that this game was a flash in the pan rather than the South Africa and Australia ones.
England could and should have won both the Australia and South Africa games. Better decision making and ball retention should have seen us win both games. Let's be honest, the Springboks try was a fluke. Whilst accepting that the AB's did not play to their full abbilities, England did not allow them the space to, played what was in front of them as they say and I reiterate George Clancey refereed the game very well in not allowing the AB's to seal off the ball at the breakdown and enter rucks illegally. Richie McCaw did not know what to say to the referee - He could hardly complain that the referee wasn't allowing him to be on the 'wrong side' of rucks !
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I don't think that was a flash in the pan performance more a coming of age. You could see the confidence of the players when they realised they could do it. Once he settled Farrell was superb in every facet of the game as well. I don't think people should underestimate that's one of the greatest results in the history of the game. Just listen to Hansen talk about England, he rates us very highly.
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Negatives : What a thoroughly depressing set of backs that is?. It has got very little going for it in my eyes and I can't quite believe we have gone through the entire Autumn series and picked Barritt and Tuilagi every single game?.
This team is set up, in a McLeish type way, of damage limitation and going out there not too lose, as opposed to trying to win. If Farrell is the answer then goodness only knows what the question is. He can't get a game at 10 for Sarries, so why in heavens name is he being picked in that position for England?. Ashton and Brown may as well come and sit with me in the North Stand, because I have as much chance of getting a pass as them
Well I go that right from last week?. I have absolutely no idea where that came from but it was absolutely stunning. I felt priveliged to have been at Twickenham on Saturday and to think when I woke up, I wished I could have been 5/6 miles away at Loftus Road instead.
We now have a set of forwards that can take on and beat any other pack in the world and that's come from the whole of the Autumn series. We have the likes of Hartley, Lawes, Haskell and Croft to come back in to the eight that played on Saturday which gives us some interesting picks for the 6 Nations.
I've been eating large helpings of humble pie since Saturday on the subject of Farrell, Barritt and Tuilagi. What can I say? The two centres totally proved me wrong, although they nearly messed up Barritt's try and Farrell's game management was outstanding.
It's one thing to beat New Zealand but quite another to smash them as we did on Saturday. Congratulations to every player and all the backroom staff and to agree with CL above, yes the crowd were bang at it. It's the best atmosphere I have ever experienced at Twickenham.
And so ends a fantastic sporting 2012. I was lucky enough to see 3 Gold medals for GB in person at the Olympics and then last Saturday put the cherry on top of the icing on top of the cake. Probably won't get any better than this :-)
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Australia and Wales in World Cup, gonna be tough.
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Australia and Wales in World Cup, gonna be tough.
And in all probability Fiji as well. I'm glad we are at home for this World Cup as I wouldn't fancy that pool on neutral territory. It's crucial to see which side of the draw we are on from the Quarters, should we get there, as well. If we play the French group with Ireland in it, then probably won't matter if we finish top or not as they are equally tough.
Was hoping for France and Tonga I must admit. However, let's hope last Saturday is the start of a resurgence for England Rugby and it won't matter who the hell we play come 2015
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It might be useful though. I still get the feeling part of our problem at the last World Cup was because we never got going, as we didn't have massive games in the pool. We played Scotland and Argentina, which whilst tricky we were expected to win. The pool for the next World Cup will mean we're straight into hard competetive matches.
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I see the Welsh want to play the game against us at the Millenium. Forget that, they're the lower seeds so we should play at home.
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I see the Welsh want to play the game against us at the Millenium. Forget that, they're the lower seeds so we should play at home.
And he has said it with a straight face as well?. What an absolute and utter tool. I don't recall Wales playing any of their games away from home in either 91, when they were joint hosts or 99 when they hosted it themselves. In 91 when we got to the Final we played both the Quarter and Semi's away from home against and at the home grounds of, France and Scotland. I am so wound up about this !!!!
Anyway, had a little further look at the draw and IF we can win our pool, it has turned into a great draw.
Could end up something like :
South Africa v Australia
New Zealand v Ireland
England v Samoa
France v Argentina
South Africa v New Zealand
England v France
Maybe the tough group will work out well for us?.
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I think a tough group is a good thing as it gets you up to speed competetively straight away. If we can't beat Australia and Wales we're not going to win it anyway. However we should be playing all our games at home, as is our advantage for hosting the World cup.
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Ian Ritchie's response made me laugh. 'We have a nice stadium of our own.'
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Ian Ritchie's response made me laugh. 'We have a nice stadium of our own.'
Quite right as well. I don't get this "The finest Rugby Stadium in the World" bollox from the Welsh anyway. Rugby is an outside game, so it's a moot point as to whether you should play under a roof?. The pitch there is also an absolute disgrace, as it starts cutting up after the warm up and the one end of the ground is in fact the old North Stand, or part of it, from the 1970's.
The only thing that the Millennium has going for it is the fact that it is in the City Centre?. The ground is about 8k less in capacity than Twickenham and despite all of the hype about the passion of the Welsh fans, has only been filled once this Autumn compared to the 4 times that Twickenham has!!!!
Having said all of that, the outside of the Stadium at Twickenham, especially at the oldest part of it, the North Stand, is looking a little tired these days. However inside and in the concourses, absolutely top notch.
Rant over !!!
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Ian Ritchie's response made me laugh. 'We have a nice stadium of our own.'
Quite right as well. I don't get this "The finest Rugby Stadium in the World" bollox from the Welsh anyway. Rugby is an outside game, so it's a moot point as to whether you should play under a roof?. The pitch there is also an absolute disgrace, as it starts cutting up after the warm up and the one end of the ground is in fact the old North Stand, or part of it, from the 1970's.
The only thing that the Millennium has going for it is the fact that it is in the City Centre?. The ground is about 8k less in capacity than Twickenham and despite all of the hype about the passion of the Welsh fans, has only been filled once this Autumn compared to the 4 times that Twickenham has!!!!
Having said all of that, the outside of the Stadium at Twickenham, especially at the oldest part of it, the North Stand, is looking a little tired these days. However inside and in the concourses, absolutely top notch.
Rant over !!!
I'd guess that some work will be done to tidy twickenham up in the run up to the tournament.
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Whoa, Freddie Freddie...
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Patel is not a Test number 6. We are making a bit of a mess of this, we'll have nice lead but we should have had an unassailable lead.
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A pint of what PaulWinch is having please!
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whoops!
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Ian Ritchie's response made me laugh. 'We have a nice stadium of our own.'
Quite right as well. I don't get this "The finest Rugby Stadium in the World" bollox from the Welsh anyway. Rugby is an outside game, so it's a moot point as to whether you should play under a roof?. The pitch there is also an absolute disgrace, as it starts cutting up after the warm up and the one end of the ground is in fact the old North Stand, or part of it, from the 1970's.
The only thing that the Millennium has going for it is the fact that it is in the City Centre?. The ground is about 8k less in capacity than Twickenham and despite all of the hype about the passion of the Welsh fans, has only been filled once this Autumn compared to the 4 times that Twickenham has!!!!
Having said all of that, the outside of the Stadium at Twickenham, especially at the oldest part of it, the North Stand, is looking a little tired these days. However inside and in the concourses, absolutely top notch.
Rant over !!!
Any luck on the ballot for 6 nations tickets Dave?
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The last time I went to HQ was when the North Stand had just been built. The rest of the ground was those old green stands that were as steep as feck.
In other news, three wins on the trot for the mighty Lyd sees us pulling away from the relegation zone.
Looks like I'll be at the Gloucester v Exeter game next Sat in one of the boxes
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Massive win for Saints away at Ulster yesterday, makes that a potentially very interesting group
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Felt funny supporting Saracens.
Bad stamp by Catres 20 on the Glasgow prop. Needs a big ban.
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Ian Ritchie's response made me laugh. 'We have a nice stadium of our own.'
Quite right as well. I don't get this "The finest Rugby Stadium in the World" bollox from the Welsh anyway. Rugby is an outside game, so it's a moot point as to whether you should play under a roof?. The pitch there is also an absolute disgrace, as it starts cutting up after the warm up and the one end of the ground is in fact the old North Stand, or part of it, from the 1970's.
The only thing that the Millennium has going for it is the fact that it is in the City Centre?. The ground is about 8k less in capacity than Twickenham and despite all of the hype about the passion of the Welsh fans, has only been filled once this Autumn compared to the 4 times that Twickenham has!!!!
Having said all of that, the outside of the Stadium at Twickenham, especially at the oldest part of it, the North Stand, is looking a little tired these days. However inside and in the concourses, absolutely top notch.
Rant over !!!
Any luck on the ballot for 6 nations tickets Dave?
No, not any luck at all for me. Been in the England Supporters Club for 10 years now and never got tickets first up through the ballot. Hopefully there will be some returns or single tickets available for the Scotland and or France game and I will be okay. Having been for three expensive days out last month though and having also got tickets for Italy, I won't be too upset if I don't secure any.
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Watching todays match (wasps vs sale):
I've been praising Billy Vunipola for a while, he looks close to ready to be around the national squad now, superb today.
Christian Wade is quality but he's still very suspect under the high ball, I can't beleive the coaches haven't been working harder on it with him.
Sale are about the worst side I've ever seen in the premiership, no fight, no one breaking the line and look totally disorganised at times but they have a good squad, it's really strange just how poor they are, Redpath has done a really poor job with them after leaving glaws.
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Former Gloucester captain, Mike Nicholls has died
http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co.uk/Gloucester-legend-Mike-Nicholls-hailed-Kingsholm/story-17671163-detail/story.html
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Redpath was no bloody good at Gloucester.
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Redpath was no bloody good at Gloucester.
Whilst i agree in part he did set up the foundation for what is probably the most devestating backline in english rugby at the moment, he just didn't have the tactical ability to get the most out of the players that he was bringing through.
He's done similar with Sale, there's no way that squad should be where they are in the league (for what it's worth I think the gap between the top and bottom is much bigger than the respective squads suggest it should be, I genuinely think the only side who wouldn't have been after a Heineken Cup spot before the season are London Welsh who will have been solely focused on staying up.
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Redpath was no bloody good at Gloucester.
Whilst i agree in part he did set up the foundation for what is probably the most devestating backline in english rugby at the moment, he just didn't have the tactical ability to get the most out of the players that he was bringing through.
He's done similar with Sale, there's no way that squad should be where they are in the league (for what it's worth I think the gap between the top and bottom is much bigger than the respective squads suggest it should be, I genuinely think the only side who wouldn't have been after a Heineken Cup spot before the season are London Welsh who will have been solely focused on staying up.
I know a couple of Sharks season ticket holders up here, to say they aren't impressed at the moment would be an understatement. They feel Diamond was good for the club for a period but he's now shot his bolt, Redpath doesn't look as if he knows as if he's coming or going as he's been promoted/demoted twice already this season and then to top it off you've got the Mitchell saga of the last month! Apparently the owner has been getting some severe grief at home games for the last few matches.
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Redpath was no bloody good at Gloucester.
Whilst i agree in part he did set up the foundation for what is probably the most devestating backline in english rugby at the moment, he just didn't have the tactical ability to get the most out of the players that he was bringing through.
He's done similar with Sale, there's no way that squad should be where they are in the league (for what it's worth I think the gap between the top and bottom is much bigger than the respective squads suggest it should be, I genuinely think the only side who wouldn't have been after a Heineken Cup spot before the season are London Welsh who will have been solely focused on staying up.
I know a couple of Sharks season ticket holders up here, to say they aren't impressed at the moment would be an understatement. They feel Diamond was good for the club for a period but he's now shot his bolt, Redpath doesn't look as if he knows as if he's coming or going as he's been promoted/demoted twice already this season and then to top it off you've got the Mitchell saga of the last month! Apparently the owner has been getting some severe grief at home games for the last few matches.
Doesn't surprise me, there's clearly something very wrong in the background there.
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Dean Ryan is responsible for the quality of our kids. Redpathetic may have coached some but its Deano's work, not his, I assure you.
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Dean Ryan is responsible for the quality of our kids. Redpathetic may have coached some but its Deano's work, not his, I assure you.
I know Ryan was a big part but Redpath was a coach at the time and at Dan Robson has said a lot of good things about him on the England U20 video diary things the RFU were doing, all about how great it was to be mentored by someone who had been such a good player and that he brought it into coaching with him. Tried to find a link to the main video but the rfu website is shit if you're looking for anything more than a few months old.
Henry Paul gets credited with a lot as well, apparently he was very much one for working with the younger kids when he was there, getting them to concentrate on the skills side of the game which is an aspect that doesn't happen as much as it should at the top clubs (hence why so many english players make handling errors under pressure and why our off loading game is so far behind the southern hemisphere nations).
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Redpath was no bloody good at Gloucester.
Redpath was no bloody good at Gloucester.
Whilst i agree in part he did set up the foundation for what is probably the most devestating backline in english rugby at the moment, he just didn't have the tactical ability to get the most out of the players that he was bringing through.
He's done similar with Sale, there's no way that squad should be where they are in the league (for what it's worth I think the gap between the top and bottom is much bigger than the respective squads suggest it should be, I genuinely think the only side who wouldn't have been after a Heineken Cup spot before the season are London Welsh who will have been solely focused on staying up.
I know a couple of Sharks season ticket holders up here, to say they aren't impressed at the moment would be an understatement. They feel Diamond was good for the club for a period but he's now shot his bolt, Redpath doesn't look as if he knows as if he's coming or going as he's been promoted/demoted twice already this season and then to top it off you've got the Mitchell saga of the last month! Apparently the owner has been getting some severe grief at home games for the last few matches.
Doesn't surprise me, there's clearly something very wrong in the background there.
Whilst i agree in part he did set up the foundation for what is probably the most devestating backline in english rugby at the moment, he just didn't have the tactical ability to get the most out of the players that he was bringing through.
He's done similar with Sale, there's no way that squad should be where they are in the league (for what it's worth I think the gap between the top and bottom is much bigger than the respective squads suggest it should be, I genuinely think the only side who wouldn't have been after a Heineken Cup spot before the season are London Welsh who will have been solely focused on staying up.
I know a couple of Sharks season ticket holders up here, to say they aren't impressed at the moment would be an understatement. They feel Diamond was good for the club for a period but he's now shot his bolt, Redpath doesn't look as if he knows as if he's coming or going as he's been promoted/demoted twice already this season and then to top it off you've got the Mitchell saga of the last month! Apparently the owner has been getting some severe grief at home games for the last few matches.
Doesn't surprise me, there's clearly something very wrong in the background there.
Steve Scott, who was sacked as Sale's Forwards Coach in September '12 has been appointed Skills Coach by the Scottish RU along with Dean Ryan who has a 12-week consultant's contract as the SRU Forwards Coach. I hardly think that Scott's new job is a step down from his position at Sale. The word on the street is that John Mitchell resigned as he is "a man of principle" - Read into that what you will and Steve Diamond apparently had a blazing row with Brian Kennedy (Sale's owner) last week. Watch this space. The Sale squad is potentially one that should be challenging for a Top 4 finish like last season. There is more than something wrong at Sale at present. If they get relegated, I cannot see them bouncing straight back.
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We didn't help them with a dogs dinner of a display against Irish.
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I see Flood has been cited for a spear tackle. Having watched it a few times it was more stupid than anything else, why lift someone's legs like that when you know how much it's watched for.
Given Goode landed head first I'll be very suprised if there isn't a 2-4 match ban, cue all the tigers fans moaning about the RFU being out to get them.
In other matches, I'm fairly sure that's tthe worst performance Glaws will put in all season, it really was a horror show. Saints were fantastic with a big win away at Exeter - Lawes in particular was awesome, back to his best, has got to be a key part of the 6N squad, Wood only had 20minutes but he's a class above any other backrow in the league the commentary got it spot in for the 2nd try, his position in starting the maul is perfect, on his own he completely off-balanced the Exeter pack and from there they just drove through him for the simplest push over. My other name from that match was Dom Waldouck, he really does look like an international centre now, was trock solid in defense and is good going forward, runs good support lines, carries well, passes well and is happy to get in and do the dirty work if he's the first to the breakdown. I firmly believe he'll be a big part of the squad by the world cup.
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Squads for the 6N announced:
England Senior Elite Player Squad (33)
Forwards (18)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints)
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (London Wasps)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Backs (15)
Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)
David Strettle (Saracens)
Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
England Saxons Elite Player Squad (32)
Forwards (17)
Mouritz Botha (Saracens)
Nathan Catt (Bath Rugby)
Louis Deacon (Leicester Tigers)
Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints)
Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints)
Will Fraser (Saracens)
Joe Gray (Harlequins)
Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers)
Shaun Knight (Gloucester Rugby)
Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors)
Matt Mullan (Worcester Warriors)
David Paice (London Irish)
Tom Palmer (London Wasps)
George Robson (Harlequins)
Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers)
Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks)
Billy Vunipola (London Wasps)
Backs (15)
Nick Abendanon (Bath Rugby)
Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Biggs (Bath Rugby)
Elliot Daly (London Wasps)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
George Lowe (Harlequins)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Ugo Monye (Harlequins)
Joe Simpson (London Wasps)
Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby)
Joel Tomkins (Saracens)
Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins)
Christian Wade (London Wasps)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)
Pretty happy with both squads. I think i'd have gone with Wade ahead of Strettle in the full squad and I'd have liked to see Dom Waldouck in the saxons but otherwise I think they've been picked on form (barring the exclusion of Stefon Armitage but at least the RFU are being consistent about that rule).
In the Senior forwards I think we're seeing pretty much the squad for the world cup now, probably Billy Vunipola to replace Waldrom and I think Kvesic will force his way in ahead of Johnson or Haskell but otherwise it's pretty set. We desperately need a replacement for Wilson though.
In think the backs is much more open as I'd say there are only 3-4 in there that are definitely in, mainly on the basis of the sheer quantity of quality we've got coming up behind them.
All in I'm happy with that idea as well, I'd rather a consistent pack who know each other and then pick the backs on form closer to the time.
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Ashton and Strettle the only wingers in the main squad.
How Toby Flood avoided a ban for his tip tackle on Goode in beyond me, its almost as if the rules arent applied to Leicester players.
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Ashton and Strettle the only wingers in the main squad.
How Toby Flood avoided a ban for his tip tackle on Goode in beyond me, its almost as if the rules arent applied to Leicester players.
Agreed, it's an odd one, other players have been banned for very similar and the rule is pretty clear cut.
Back to the squad, he is clearly treating Foden and Brown as wing options, which I'm really not sure about, as I said, I think the backs is nothing like the squad we'll see in a few years, In the mid term I think we'll see the NZ result as an anomaly rather than a new beginning, we still need to get the centre balance right and Farrell is still not versatile enough to be an international 10.
Given the squad I'd love to see burns and twelvetrees replace farrell and barritt over the course of the 6N, those 2, along with George Ford and Elliott Daly, are the players I'd expect to see cement places in the squad alongside the established guys (youngs, manu, foden and ashton)
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If Farrell plays like he did against NZ he can be an international 10.
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Ian Ritchie's response made me laugh. 'We have a nice stadium of our own.'
Quite right as well. I don't get this "The finest Rugby Stadium in the World" bollox from the Welsh anyway. Rugby is an outside game, so it's a moot point as to whether you should play under a roof?. The pitch there is also an absolute disgrace, as it starts cutting up after the warm up and the one end of the ground is in fact the old North Stand, or part of it, from the 1970's.
The only thing that the Millennium has going for it is the fact that it is in the City Centre?. The ground is about 8k less in capacity than Twickenham and despite all of the hype about the passion of the Welsh fans, has only been filled once this Autumn compared to the 4 times that Twickenham has!!!!
Having said all of that, the outside of the Stadium at Twickenham, especially at the oldest part of it, the North Stand, is looking a little tired these days. However inside and in the concourses, absolutely top notch.
Rant over !!!
Any luck on the ballot for 6 nations tickets Dave?
No, not any luck at all for me. Been in the England Supporters Club for 10 years now and never got tickets first up through the ballot. Hopefully there will be some returns or single tickets available for the Scotland and or France game and I will be okay. Having been for three expensive days out last month though and having also got tickets for Italy, I won't be too upset if I don't secure any.
Sorry for late reply Dave. Same here but im not going to the Italy game. I was wondering about going to Twickers on the day and looking for touts but that may be expensive.
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Lawes has had an outstanding first half for saints against Castres.
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Gloucester are through in the Amlin then.
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Gloucester are through in the Amlin then.
Still think we need a win next week.
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Top team in each group isn't it?
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Bath are through to the quarter finals in the Amlin.
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Top team in each group isn't it?
Yes you're right, need a win next week to guarantee a home QF. In all likliehood we'll be seeded second with a win as Bath had an extremely easy group.
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To add a note as this is a bit delayed I should include: for those who haven't seen them...
World cup pools have been announced England have Australia and Wales as confirmed as well as the top unseeded Oceania side (fiji probably) and the playoff winner (looking at the way the pools are lined up I'd think Russia or Romania).
That's easily the hardest group and should mean we're going to need to be playing at our top gear from the off, which is often a good thing if you look at the history books, get out of that group on top and you really should be making the final.
I don't normally look them up early but was checking the qualifying in europe, which is really heavily loaded to favour the big 3 (excluding the 6N) of romania, russia and georgia.
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Interesting transfer merry-go-round for some of the England Boys
Billy Vunipola joining his brother at Sarries
Alex Corbisiero heading to Saints to replace tonga'huia who is going to france (with Mujati)
Good move for corbisiero will be a good place for him to develop, so long as he can stop picking up the niggly injuries. Not so sure about the Vunipola move, mostly a family thing, but he was becoming a really important part of the team at wasps and rightly getting recognition, I hope he hasn't made the move too soon.
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Using my rudimentary maths, that is Biarittz at home then.
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Yes, Balshaw and Yashvilli return to Kingsholm.
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I fancy going to the game but can't on the Saturday as I am Best Man at a pals wedding.
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I see Ronshaw has been retained as captain for the 6N. I can't help but think that's a mistake, his form for England in 2012 wasn't good enough for him to deserve a guaranteed starting place which this effectively hands him.
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40 years ago this weekend (27 Jan)......................... "this is Gareth Edwards................... a dramatic start................ what a score !"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21205137
Phil Bennett's side-steps.... wow
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In that game there were 30 scrums, 1 reset, 0 collapses. Compare and contract to today.
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In that game there were 30 scrums, 1 reset, 0 collapses. Compare and contract to today.
A few of the commentators are starting to pick this up, the scrum has become all about the hit in recent years. The shirts were much easier to get a hold of as well.
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40 years ago this weekend (27 Jan)......................... "this is Gareth Edwards................... a dramatic start................ what a score !"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21205137
Phil Bennett's side-steps.... wow
And those David Duckham dummies as well.
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Kvesic is off to Glaws next season.
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Yes Wuss are moaning, how many players have they had off us over the years?
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We take their promising youngsters. They have those we don't want but with the experience to keep them up. They are very much our feeder club.
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Could've sworn I'd already replied on here, but clearly not.
Kvesic is an exceptional talent, I fully expect him to be an england regular within a few years. A back row of him, vunipola and launchbury, behind kitchener and lawes in the 2nd row is a very exciting prospect.
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Could've sworn I'd already replied on here, but clearly not.
Kvesic is an exceptional talent, I fully expect him to be an england regular within a few years. A back row of him, vunipola and launchbury, behind kitchener and lawes in the 2nd row is a very exciting prospect.
When I read that yesterday I thoght there will be a few excited Glaws fans on here. Not a fan of one club per se, but I do love the way Gloucester play the game so I guess they would be my adopted side.
What are you doing with Wood, Croft, Robshaw and Morgan in the back row then?. Embarrassment of riches in those positions :-)
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Could've sworn I'd already replied on here, but clearly not.
Kvesic is an exceptional talent, I fully expect him to be an england regular within a few years. A back row of him, vunipola and launchbury, behind kitchener and lawes in the 2nd row is a very exciting prospect.
When I read that yesterday I thoght there will be a few excited Glaws fans on here. Not a fan of one club per se, but I do love the way Gloucester play the game so I guess they would be my adopted side.
What are you doing with Wood, Croft, Robshaw and Morgan in the back row then?. Embarrassment of riches in those positions :-)
Morgan and Wood will still be around but of them only Wood is better than I think these kids are going to be (I've said before I think Wood is the best 6 in europe, and is probably in the top 2-3 in the world). Vunipola in particular is going to surpass Morgan in every way within a year or 2. He's potentially as good as any 8 I've ever seen.
Croft is too 1-dimensional, if he loses his pace he'll be nowhere near the england squad.
Robshaw is unlucky to an extent. He's a very good 6 and an ok 7, but once Armitage (fingers crossed) is back in england and Kvesic has had another year developing I just don't see him deserving a place, regardless of how good a captain he is.
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I like the look of the youngsters Gloucester are putting together. They need to keep the group together for a couple of years but could be very exciting.
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I like the look of the youngsters Gloucester are putting together. They need to keep the group together for a couple of years but could be very exciting.
The front 5 is still the weakness for me, outside that they're as good as anyone in the league. Even then the individual players are all decent, they just don't perform like you'd expect from a glaws pack.
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Could've sworn I'd already replied on here, but clearly not.
Kvesic is an exceptional talent, I fully expect him to be an england regular within a few years. A back row of him, vunipola and launchbury, behind kitchener and lawes in the 2nd row is a very exciting prospect.
When I read that yesterday I thoght there will be a few excited Glaws fans on here. Not a fan of one club per se, but I do love the way Gloucester play the game so I guess they would be my adopted side.
What are you doing with Wood, Croft, Robshaw and Morgan in the back row then?. Embarrassment of riches in those positions :-)
Morgan and Wood will still be around but of them only Wood is better than I think these kids are going to be (I've said before I think Wood is the best 6 in europe, and is probably in the top 2-3 in the world). Vunipola in particular is going to surpass Morgan in every way within a year or 2. He's potentially as good as any 8 I've ever seen.
Croft is too 1-dimensional, if he loses his pace he'll be nowhere near the england squad.
Robshaw is unlucky to an extent. He's a very good 6 and an ok 7, but once Armitage (fingers crossed) is back in england and Kvesic has had another year developing I just don't see him deserving a place, regardless of how good a captain he is.
It continues to stagger me and I was one of these people in the beginning, just how underrated Robshaw is. Dewi Morris always says on Sky he is a 6.5 playing as 7 and Barnesy has to keep reminding him he is a bona fida number 7. I think he is coming very strongly on the rails to captain the Lions and be openside flanker.
Kvesic may or may not be better than him in time, but he is going to have to be bloody good to usurp him anytime soon. Armitage has never produced the level of performances for England that Robshaw has, albeit he has never had a run. Also I don't think he was ever anywhere near Robshaw's level when playing for Irish. I don't have ESPN so don't see much French ruby so can't comment on his Toulon efforts.
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I like the look of the youngsters Gloucester are putting together. They need to keep the group together for a couple of years but could be very exciting.
The front 5 is still the weakness for me, outside that they're as good as anyone in the league. Even then the individual players are all decent, they just don't perform like you'd expect from a glaws pack.
Especially with Jim Hamilton off next season. i am not getting too excited, even though I think we're moving in the right direction, as we have been here before under Dean Ryan with the Ryan Lamb, Anthony Allen, Jack Adams and Marcel Garvey era. Having potential is one thing, fulfilling it is another.
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At the very highest level you want 7 to be the first guy to every breakdown and you want them protecting your own ball or stealing it from the opposition. Everything else is secondary to this as far as I'm concerned and, unfortunately, Robshaw isn't great at it. You'll find most of the ex pros who question him were either backrows or 9s who know just how big a difference it makes if your 7 is exceptional in that area. You will also find that they all want England to find a way to include Stefon Armitage, who's work around the breakdown, and general work rate, are phenomenal.
Robshaw's strengths are in tackling and positioning himself around the breakdown, which are strengths you want in a 6. Hence he's a very good 6 (behind a world class 6 in Wood) and a decent 7. So far we've got away with it because Dan Cole does a great job of filling in for the work a 7 would normally do in those situations but that's not ideal. Dewi Morris is spot on, Robshaw is a great backrow forward, with all the qualities you want from a generic backrower but he doesn't quite have the skillset or mindset to be a world class openside. That's why I think he's unlucky and lucky at the same time. Unlucky in that England have some truly exceptional backrowers right now, and lucky that he was in the right place at the right time to be made England captain. If Wood had been fit when Lancaster got the job I think he'd be captain and Robshaw would be under a lot more pressure.
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By the way, I do wish we had a proper pack like days of old. The kind of guy that would be building your extension until half 3 and then play that evening. The good old days...
Here is a mega stake in the ground to start a conflab then.
Gloucester: Will they win the Heineken Cup in the next five years?
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By the way, I do wish we had a proper pack like days of old. The kind of guy that would be building your extension until half 3 and then play that evening. The good old days...
Here is a mega stake in the ground to start a conflab then.
Gloucester: Will they win the Heineken Cup in the next five years?
If they get a couple of good front 5 forwards in - yes.
With Kvesic in they have exceptional talent from 7 to 15 who are young enough to stay together for 4-5 years, they just need to get the platform in front right.
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Who would you suggest? I got excited when Ryan was in charge and there was a preliminary deal done for Dontcha O C from Munster. It fell through.
Him and big, ginger Paul were astonishing at that time.
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Its going jolly well at Northampton at the minute. May has scored twice.
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Comfortable win for Glaws. Into the top four. Might have been better still if the ref had a clue how to officiate a scrum.
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Or that a punch is a red card.
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Looks like Cowan might be out for a bit after his injury Saturday so young Robbo could be due a run.
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Looks like Cowan might be out for a bit after his injury Saturday so young Robbo could be due a run.
It looks quite nasty when you see it on the highlights, if a player goes down like that when no one is around it's generally not pleasant.
Same incident - I'm disappointed that the ref didn't stop the game, he was clearly in trouble but with play still 'live' May had little choice but to play the ball. Tindall didn't like it, and his challenge shows as much, but you can't fault May for it.
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I did chuckle at Tindall's "clearing out" after that.
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Lewis is off to Exeter next season then.
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Stitch that you moaning Worcester bastards.
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A lot of Worcester fans moaning about the late penalty try. In reality, if you cynically trip a bloke as he's running through, you're going to get caught out. Glad the TMO was there though as I can't see a ref having the balls to give it in real time. More worrying is how poor Glos have been this year. I cannot see them getting anything at the Wreck on Friday - not even a LBP.
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A lot of Worcester fans moaning about the late penalty try. In reality, if you cynically trip a bloke as he's running through, you're going to get caught out. Glad the TMO was there though as I can't see a ref having the balls to give it in real time. More worrying is how poor Glos have been this year. I cannot see them getting anything at the Wreck on Friday - not even a LBP.
They're really missing Burns and Billy 36, those 2 have been 2 of the best players in the league this season (they'd probably take 10 and 12 in a team of the year currently) and the quality isn't there to replace them. Trinder did very well though, glad to see him getting back to fitness and form, a few years ago I picked him as the best young centre in europe (when he was about 18) so I really don't want to have to back down on that claim, but his injury last year has set him back a fair bit.
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That's been the trouble of late. Mills is not close to an adequate replacement for Burns at ten.
I couldn't get my hat on the bitching of the Worcester fans about the decision. Cheating twat.
In fourth at the minute though and a decent cushion over Bath at the minute to ensure Heineken qualification.
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I think I read earlier that Freddie is due back this weekend so that takes care of 10 for Glaws. I would also imagine that Twelvetrees will be released by England as he didn't get a run out in the France game. If Morgan is also back, not sure if he is or not, then suddenly the trip to Bath doesn't look quite as daunting for you guys does it?
Hoping Gloucester can get into the top 4, but have to say I think Sarries, Quins and Leicester are all as step too far at the moment for them. However, they are building nicely and I do think that Davies is a seriusly good coach so looks okay for the future I would say?
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Davies is doing alright. We will look a lot better once Sinbad and Olly Morgan are available as well.
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Davies is doing alright. We will look a lot better once Sinbad and Olly Morgan are available as well.
I'd never rely on those pair being fit, it's asking to be disappointed, which is infuriating as they're both comfortably international class when they're available.
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Simpson Daniel is Gloucester's best player of the professional era. As with organ he's a top player but I'd question his value given how brittle his body is. Big game Friday night at the Wreck.
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Our record there is fucking terrible but hasn't been too bad the last few years. Looks like it will be dry all week until then so that should help the backs.
My mate gets married on the Saturday after the Biarritz game and I am trying to encourage him to go as a last hurrah.
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When Wimbledon buggered off to Milton Keynes all Hell broke loose. Quite rightly in my opinion.
However in rugby it seems just about all the London sides are playing miles outside London... Wycombe, Reading, Oxford, Watford, but I never hear any fuss being made about this. Don't any of their fans care or have I just managed to miss the surrounding controversy?
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When Wimbledon buggered off to Milton Keynes all Hell broke loose. Quite rightly in my opinion.
However in rugby it seems just about all the London sides are playing miles outside London... Wycombe, Reading, Oxford, Watford, but I never hear any fuss being made about this. Don't any of their fans care or have I just managed to miss the surrounding controversy?
Rugby is shit and absolutely no one outside of Leicester and Bristol gives a fuck.
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When Wimbledon buggered off to Milton Keynes all Hell broke loose. Quite rightly in my opinion.
However in rugby it seems just about all the London sides are playing miles outside London... Wycombe, Reading, Oxford, Watford, but I never hear any fuss being made about this. Don't any of their fans care or have I just managed to miss the surrounding controversy?
Rugby is shit and absolutely no one outside of Leicester and Bristol gives a fuck.
Or, more likely, a lot of the fans will have travelled in to London from the outskirts anyway so they've moved closer to their main fan base. London Irish have always been west london so moving out to Reading isn't a massive change for them.
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Not convinced. You could make a case that most Villa fans have historically come from West Birmingham but I reckon there would still be an outcry if we moved to Telford.
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It does seem as if football is the only sport that just won't accept franchises.
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When Wimbledon buggered off to Milton Keynes all Hell broke loose. Quite rightly in my opinion.
However in rugby it seems just about all the London sides are playing miles outside London... Wycombe, Reading, Oxford, Watford, but I never hear any fuss being made about this. Don't any of their fans care or have I just managed to miss the surrounding controversy?
Rugby is shit and absolutely no one outside of Leicester and Bristol gives a fuck.
To an extent you are correct. Fans in London treat rugby like going to the theatre, a day out to be passively entertained from time to time. Ultimately no passion.
I would have to say from your comment though that you have never been to Gloucester and I suspect Northampton. People there do 'give a fuck' about rugby. Yes siree.
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When Wimbledon buggered off to Milton Keynes all Hell broke loose. Quite rightly in my opinion.
However in rugby it seems just about all the London sides are playing miles outside London... Wycombe, Reading, Oxford, Watford, but I never hear any fuss being made about this. Don't any of their fans care or have I just managed to miss the surrounding controversy?
Rugby is shit and absolutely no one outside of Leicester and Bristol gives a fuck.
To an extent you are correct. Fans in London treat rugby like going to the theatre, a day out to be passively entertained from time to time. Ultimately no passion.
I would have to say from your comment though that you have never been to Gloucester and I suspect Northampton. People there do 'give a fuck' about rugby. Yes siree.
I lived in Northampton for a few years, you don't see many football shirts there, pure rugby town.
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Bringing this thread back fro the brink a little here and commenting on a story from the start of the week but...
It's interesting to note that the luck of the irish clearly extends to the citing commission doing everything they can to ensure Paul O'Connell gets to go on the lions tour.
Here (http://www.rugbydump.com/2013/04/3135/paul-oconnell-knocks-out-dave-kearney-with-clumsy-kick-to-the-head) for those who haven't seen it. To me there's no way he can get a boot to that ball without kicking him in the head so I think calling it clumsy is pretty generous, given some of the bans handed out by the citing commission in the last couple of years I think he's got away with one.
Any thoughts?
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I don't know, I could see that being argued both ways.
You are on the money with the citing of Lions players (and internationals generally). Toby Flood just before the 6N is a case in point.
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For me there is no chance he can get a boot on that ball, from the angle he's coming in at, without kicking the guy in the head first. Yes it's clumsy but there is a complete disregard for the safety of another player there, in my opinion. I'm amazed it wasn't at least cited, 2-4 week ban as far as I'm concerned. As I say though, taking POC on the lions tour would then be difficult as he's already struggling to get enough game time this season to find any form. Add to that a munster and Clermont semi coming next week and when I first saw it I knew he'd get away with it.
I think there needs to be an investigation into it if I'm honest, much like Healy in the 6N and the Flood incident you mentioned it happens too often that international players seem to never get bans that massively affect their national side.
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I see Gatland has ditched a lot of English players from the Lions, no Robshaw at all.
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Lions Squad
Captain: Sam Warburton
Lions squad for the tour to Australia:
Backs: Leigh Halfpenny (Wales), Stuart Hogg (Scotland), Rob Kearney (Ireland), Tommy Bowe (Ireland), Alex Cuthbert (Wales), Sean Maitland (Scotland), George North (Wales), Jonathan Davies (Wales), Brian O'Driscoll (Ireland), Jamie Roberts (Wales), Manu Tuilagi (England), Owen Farrell (England), Jonathan Sexton (Ireland), Conor Murray (Ireland), Mike Phillips (Wales), Ben Youngs (England).
Forwards: Dan Cole (England), Cian Healy (Ireland), Gethin Jenkins (Wales), Adam Jones (Wales), Matt Stevens (England), Mako Vunipola (England), Dylan Hartley (England), Richard Hibbard (Wales), Tom Youngs (England), Ian Evans (Wales), Richie Gray (Scotland), Alun-Wyn Jones (Wales), Paul O'Connell (Ireland), Geoff Parling (England), Tom Croft (England), Toby Faletau (Wales), Jamie Heaslip (Ireland), Dan Lydiate (Wales), Sean O'Brien (Ireland), Justin Tipuric (Wales), Sam Warburton (Wales, captain)
Matt Stevens? Erm..
No place for Robshaw or Wood but Croft gets a spot... really?
I'm amazed that Wade hasn't got a spot, he'd be perfect for the conditions down under.
15 welsh, 10 english, 9 irish and 3 scots - not quite sure how Ireland have nearly as many as england given the form in the last year.
They said there would be suprises, the only name on that list who wasn't fairly obviously in the mix is Matt Stevens and that's mainly because it's well established that he's not good enough for international rugby.
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Yeah Stevens is very odd. I'm really hoping Wade gets the opportunity to cement his place in the England team this summer.
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I think Tommy Bowe and Dan Lydiate are the 2 I'm most offended by. both have play a couple of games after 3-4months out injured and have been picked ahead of Wade and Wood/Robshaw respectively. Wade being the top scorer in the premiership and Wood and Robshaw both having had fantastic seasons, both for club and country.
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How Wood and Robshaw miss out is utterly bewildering. I can't stand Gatland.
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I just lifted the Aviva Premiership Trophy at work and it's bloody heavy!
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How Wood and Robshaw miss out is utterly bewildering. I can't stand Gatland.
You could argue that Wood or Robshaw should have gone ahead of Croft and Lydiate, but I'm not sure you could argue that they should have gone ahead of any of the other flankers in the squad. I personally wouldn't have had Kearney, Stevens, Hartley, Gray, Croft and Heaslip in the squad, but there you go.
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Why pick a captain who's not good enough to get in the team?
Gatland showing his bias.
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How Wood and Robshaw miss out is utterly bewildering. I can't stand Gatland.
You could argue that Wood or Robshaw should have gone ahead of Croft and Lydiate, but I'm not sure you could argue that they should have gone ahead of any of the other flankers in the squad. I personally wouldn't have had Kearney, Stevens, Hartley, Gray, Croft and Heaslip in the squad, but there you go.
Wood can probably blame Lancaster that he's not going. He's the best 6 in europe but played most of the 6N at 8 where he's decent but not great. However, he is a great 6, a very good 7 and and a decent 8, he should have been one of the first back rows down. Warburton couldn't get into the wales side (at 7) and yet is picked as captain, sums it up for me.
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How Wood and Robshaw miss out is utterly bewildering. I can't stand Gatland.
You could argue that Wood or Robshaw should have gone ahead of Croft and Lydiate, but I'm not sure you could argue that they should have gone ahead of any of the other flankers in the squad. I personally wouldn't have had Kearney, Stevens, Hartley, Gray, Croft and Heaslip in the squad, but there you go.
Wood can probably blame Lancaster that he's not going. He's the best 6 in europe but played most of the 6N at 8 where he's decent but not great. However, he is a great 6, a very good 7 and and a decent 8, he should have been one of the first back rows down. Warburton couldn't get into the wales side (at 7) and yet is picked as captain, sums it up for me.
It must be noted that Gatland wasn't picking the side when Sam Warburton couldn't get into the Wales side!! I agree about Wood though and he could have covered 8 as well. There seems to be a lack of genuine lineout options in the backrow selections which will put pressure on the 2nd rows to win lineout ball.
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How Wood and Robshaw miss out is utterly bewildering. I can't stand Gatland.
You could argue that Wood or Robshaw should have gone ahead of Croft and Lydiate, but I'm not sure you could argue that they should have gone ahead of any of the other flankers in the squad. I personally wouldn't have had Kearney, Stevens, Hartley, Gray, Croft and Heaslip in the squad, but there you go.
Wood can probably blame Lancaster that he's not going. He's the best 6 in europe but played most of the 6N at 8 where he's decent but not great. However, he is a great 6, a very good 7 and and a decent 8, he should have been one of the first back rows down. Warburton couldn't get into the wales side (at 7) and yet is picked as captain, sums it up for me.
It must be noted that Gatland wasn't picking the side when Sam Warburton couldn't get into the Wales side!! I agree about Wood though and he could have covered 8 as well. There seems to be a lack of genuine lineout options in the backrow selections which will put pressure on the 2nd rows to win lineout ball.
Croft has been picked for 2 things, his pace and his lineout contribution, I actually think that's an area where the lions will dominate them anyway. What i think we're missing in the backrow is the link up player who makes everyone else have an easier time of it. That's the real strength of Wood, he is always where he needs to be, both attacking and defending and he has great hands to get the ball on to the better runners. We didn't see that in the 6N because at 8 there is a requirement to carry a lot more, which he doesn't have the acceleration to really offer at the highest level.
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Match schedule for the world cup released.
Villa Park has 2 group games
Australia vs the play-off winner (Russia would be my guess, but there's a hell of a lot of teams it could be)
South Africa vs Samoa
The latter would be a very good game to catch if you're interested.
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How Wood and Robshaw miss out is utterly bewildering. I can't stand Gatland.
You could argue that Wood or Robshaw should have gone ahead of Croft and Lydiate, but I'm not sure you could argue that they should have gone ahead of any of the other flankers in the squad. I personally wouldn't have had Kearney, Stevens, Hartley, Gray, Croft and Heaslip in the squad, but there you go.
Wood can probably blame Lancaster that he's not going. He's the best 6 in europe but played most of the 6N at 8 where he's decent but not great. However, he is a great 6, a very good 7 and and a decent 8, he should have been one of the first back rows down. Warburton couldn't get into the wales side (at 7) and yet is picked as captain, sums it up for me.
It must be noted that Gatland wasn't picking the side when Sam Warburton couldn't get into the Wales side!! I agree about Wood though and he could have covered 8 as well. There seems to be a lack of genuine lineout options in the backrow selections which will put pressure on the 2nd rows to win lineout ball.
Croft has been picked for 2 things, his pace and his lineout contribution, I actually think that's an area where the lions will dominate them anyway. What i think we're missing in the backrow is the link up player who makes everyone else have an easier time of it. That's the real strength of Wood, he is always where he needs to be, both attacking and defending and he has great hands to get the ball on to the better runners. We didn't see that in the 6N because at 8 there is a requirement to carry a lot more, which he doesn't have the acceleration to really offer at the highest level.
Tipuric can definitely do that.
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I'm excited by the squad we're taking to Uruguay and Argentina. Particularly interested to see Wade, Kvesic, Billy, May, Tomkins, Eastmond and also Foden back.
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I'm excited by the squad we're taking to Uruguay and Argentina. Particularly interested to see Wade, Kvesic, Billy, May, Tomkins, Eastmond and also Foden back.
I don't think it will happen but I'd love to see a 10-15 of:
Burns
Yarde
Eastmond
Joseph
Wade
May
so much pace, they'd be devastating behind a commanding scrum (which we have). Of the scrum halves in the squad I'd probably pop dickson in at 9 and tell him to just concentrate on quick ball to the backs.
On top of that I want to see Kvesic and Billy V both get a good run at 7 and 8 respectively and I'm optimistic we'll see Lawes and Lauchbury play together.
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Watching the Heineken cup final as a neutral I found it distinctly unsatisfying that the clearly stronger team dint win. With someone as strong at kicking as Wilkinson he'll keep you in touch but there's something wrong with the scoring system that sees this happen.
Deleon Armitage - what a twat, no class that bloke.
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A couple of interesting topics from this weekend:
Richard Cockerill is the Fergie of Rugby, horrible man who spent most of the final trying to turn the officials to his side.
Wayne Barnes was very poor in that he is very inconsistent, for most of the penalties conceded you can find an example from the game of the penalty not being given. He was, however, particularly bad with the scrums where he let Leicester do what they liked, Tonga'huia was pinned 3-4 times for doing nothing wrong.
Which leads to: Dylan Hartley.
I think he's a bit unlucky. The footage you can find online doesn't show the actual incident. What you can see though is hartley, on his knees, next to Tom Youngs, about to speak, then it cuts away, and 2-3 seconds later he's sent off. For Hartley to turn to Barnes and say in a way with no uncertainty to him that he's a fucking cheat seems a bit unlikely to me. Hartley is adamant that he was talking to Youngs and I believe him, from what I can see. Even the ban seems to be based entirely on Barnes having absolutely no doubt that it was directed to him, with testimony from other players being completely ignored. That sounds wrong to me.
Moving on. Yarde, Wade and Eastmond all scored for England and May showed a glimpse of his quality at the end. If we can get all of them delivering for England we'll destroy teams, all 3 tries were excellent examples of a top finisher using their pace and balance to convert a half chance. Yarde also did really well in the build up to the try by...
Freddie Burns - scored the try, controlled the game, kicked his points, and played with a progressive open style that England just don't have normally. One bit of play between him and Twelvetrees in the 2nd half was almost rugby porn it was that good to watch. If Farrell is still the unquestioned first choice by the world cup I'll be very upset, Burns has almost as good a kicking record and is on a par with Game management but has so much more to offer on top.
Last one - Elliott Daly was in the wrong kit and should be in the tour party going to Argentina but regardless of that he was exceptional, light years ahead of Goode who England have been stuck with recently. Brown did well and Foden is clearly world class but Daly as Full-back/Centre cover has got to be something to look at next year.
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In terms of England Paul e, like you I was really encouraged by what I saw yesterday. Yes we have to qualify it by the fact they were against the Baa Baas, but I have seen many England teams in recent years with a lack of experience get blown away by the Barbarians.
The move you mentioned between Burns and Twelvetrees was a thing of beauty and just shows what potential we have if used correctly. Maybe I will be accused of being unpatriotic but I have little interest in the Lions as things stand. The test team is already inked in to be a combination of mostly Wales with a few Irish and I don't see one England or Scotland player being picked. That being the case I am much more interested in our tour to Argentina and how we develop our game.
I just hope that if things go well over the summer then the Lions players don't automatically get picked again in the Autumn. If Freddie plays well and we run in a few tries and win, then he has the shirt for me no matter how many pens Farrell may kick in Australia?.
Was very impressed like you with Eliot Daly yesterday and it was good to see Lancaster talk him up after the game. Eastmond provided a lovely little cameo at the end as well, but not sure of his best position. Up front I thought Attwood was good alongside the magnificent Launchbury (Why has POC been picked on the strength of one game at Quins?). Corbiersero immediately solidified the scrum and I am convinced he would be the starting loose head in Australia if he had stayed fit. Morgan was also very good and we missed him badly in the 6N. I also like the look of Kvesic too.
Finally a mention for the captain Webber who may just have become number 2 back up to Youngs?
So, here is the Dave Summers matchday 23 for November, presuming all fit and available :
Corbiersero
Youngs
Cole
Launchbury
Attwood
Croft
Morgan
Wood
Youngs
Burns
May
Twelvetrees
Tuilagi
Wade
Foden
Vunipola
Webber
Thomas
Lawes
Robshaw
Care
Farrell
Eastmond
Done very quickly and I am sure I will have changed my mind in a few hours :-)
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I mostly agree but:
Parling in for Attwood - I'm a big fan of Parling at the minute.
Yarde in for May who moves to the bench - I think Yarde might turn out to be a bit special, his run down the line for the first and break his his own try were moments of genius.
Robshaw in for Croft with Wood at 6 - you want the biggest impact player on the bench and that's Croft for me
I'm certain that 10 and 12 are the weak points for england, so seeing a 10 and 12 who looked solid in defense but also provided so much quality going forward was great.
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What's pleasing is that Lancaster clearly sees these flair players as the future.
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What's pleasing is that Lancaster clearly sees these flair players as the future.
Farrell is the joker in the pack in that idea though, I really don't understand why he's been so stubborn in selecting 10,12 and 13. We really need some fantastic open attacking displays this summer to make it that much more difficult for him to to revert to the 6N borefest that the backs served up. Alex Goode being injured could be the real blessing in disguise though, a hard running attacking fullback is almost a requirement in modern international rugby and despite being a good player Goode isn't that.
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I'm not really a fan of Goode at international level at all.
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I'm not really a fan of Goode at international level at all.
That's pretty much my point, he's technically sound but he lacks the explosive pace and cutting running lines you need to make it at the very top level.
I have similar concerns about Brown who I think is lacking the change of pace and decision-making you need at international level.
Daly will be a lot better than either of them.
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Barnes really is a wanker. Britz was well out of line when he tried to swing for Farrell and Barnes tried to put the blame on Farrell.
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Barnes really is a wanker. Britz was well out of line when he tried to swing for Farrell and Barnes tried to put the blame on Farrell.
Should have been a red card.
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Definitely a red. Overall the Lions will be happy with that, they did particularly well in tough conditions in the second half.
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I really wish I could get into the Lions this year however I am still really peeved at the lack of Englishmen on the tour, all seemingly based on 80 mins at Cardiff with everything beforehand conveniently forgotten.
Looking at the squad I see a test team of 10/11 Welshmen and the rest Irish so why would I be that bothered if we win, lose or draw?
They played nicely today against a poor opposition really and scored some good tries. Now, can someone answer a question for me please?. Chris Ashton and Delon Armitage have been rightly castigated for seeemingly taking the piss with their pre score celebrations, especially Armitage in the Heineken Final. Not a peep was said about Phillips today for doing exactly the same?
Can you tell I am bitter? :-)
Anyway, much more interested in the England tour and liking what I see in the line up for tomorrow's match. With the two tests on BBC next week, it will be great to see how our young talent and flair go.
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I really wish I could get into the Lions this year however I am still really peeved at the lack of Englishmen on the tour, all seemingly based on 80 mins at Cardiff with everything beforehand conveniently forgotten.
Looking at the squad I see a test team of 10/11 Welshmen and the rest Irish so why would I be that bothered if we win, lose or draw?
They played nicely today against a poor opposition really and scored some good tries. Now, can someone answer a question for me please?. Chris Ashton and Delon Armitage have been rightly castigated for seeemingly taking the piss with their pre score celebrations, especially Armitage in the Heineken Final. Not a peep was said about Phillips today for doing exactly the same?
Can you tell I am bitter? :-)
Anyway, much more interested in the England tour and liking what I see in the line up for tomorrow's match. With the two tests on BBC next week, it will be great to see how our young talent and flair go.
Phillips was doing it to a clubmate (Rokocoko) so I guess it's slightly different.
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I really wish I could get into the Lions this year however I am still really peeved at the lack of Englishmen on the tour, all seemingly based on 80 mins at Cardiff with everything beforehand conveniently forgotten.
Looking at the squad I see a test team of 10/11 Welshmen and the rest Irish so why would I be that bothered if we win, lose or draw?
They played nicely today against a poor opposition really and scored some good tries. Now, can someone answer a question for me please?. Chris Ashton and Delon Armitage have been rightly castigated for seeemingly taking the piss with their pre score celebrations, especially Armitage in the Heineken Final. Not a peep was said about Phillips today for doing exactly the same?
Can you tell I am bitter? :-)
Anyway, much more interested in the England tour and liking what I see in the line up for tomorrow's match. With the two tests on BBC next week, it will be great to see how our young talent and flair go.
It's almost as if Wales relatively poor form up to the England game (and their abysmal record against Australia) has been completely ignored.
It would be absolute madness if at least Coles and Tuilagi weren't in the test team. I don't trust Gatland though.
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I really wish I could get into the Lions this year however I am still really peeved at the lack of Englishmen on the tour, all seemingly based on 80 mins at Cardiff with everything beforehand conveniently forgotten.
Looking at the squad I see a test team of 10/11 Welshmen and the rest Irish so why would I be that bothered if we win, lose or draw?
They played nicely today against a poor opposition really and scored some good tries. Now, can someone answer a question for me please?. Chris Ashton and Delon Armitage have been rightly castigated for seeemingly taking the piss with their pre score celebrations, especially Armitage in the Heineken Final. Not a peep was said about Phillips today for doing exactly the same?
Can you tell I am bitter? :-)
Anyway, much more interested in the England tour and liking what I see in the line up for tomorrow's match. With the two tests on BBC next week, it will be great to see how our young talent and flair go.
It would be absolute madness if at least Coles and Tuilagi weren't in the test team. I don't trust Gatland though.
So you'd have Cole instead of Adam Jones? Seriously?
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I really wish I could get into the Lions this year however I am still really peeved at the lack of Englishmen on the tour, all seemingly based on 80 mins at Cardiff with everything beforehand conveniently forgotten.
Looking at the squad I see a test team of 10/11 Welshmen and the rest Irish so why would I be that bothered if we win, lose or draw?
They played nicely today against a poor opposition really and scored some good tries. Now, can someone answer a question for me please?. Chris Ashton and Delon Armitage have been rightly castigated for seeemingly taking the piss with their pre score celebrations, especially Armitage in the Heineken Final. Not a peep was said about Phillips today for doing exactly the same?
Can you tell I am bitter? :-)
Anyway, much more interested in the England tour and liking what I see in the line up for tomorrow's match. With the two tests on BBC next week, it will be great to see how our young talent and flair go.
It would be absolute madness if at least Coles and Tuilagi weren't in the test team. I don't trust Gatland though.
So you'd have Cole instead of Adam Jones? Seriously?
Yes, Jones is marginally better in the scrum but we'll destroy Australia there anyway. In the loose Cole is one of the best props in the world, his work around the breakdown is as good as most 7s.
If Cole doesn't start it shows that Gatland has clearly gone with the 'familiar' picking welsh players and playing welsh tactics, but subbing in a few from other nations to make it look like he's trying to balance things out.
As others have said a hell of a lot of the Welsh players are in on the back of the game against England, but the reality is it was tactical errors that cost England more than individual players (Brown on the wing, Barritt ahead of Twelvetrees at 12, Marler starting, Wood at 8). Fix these and there is nothing between England and Wales, but we'll likely see 8-9 welsh starters and 2-3 english.
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I really wish I could get into the Lions this year however I am still really peeved at the lack of Englishmen on the tour, all seemingly based on 80 mins at Cardiff with everything beforehand conveniently forgotten.
Looking at the squad I see a test team of 10/11 Welshmen and the rest Irish so why would I be that bothered if we win, lose or draw?
They played nicely today against a poor opposition really and scored some good tries. Now, can someone answer a question for me please?. Chris Ashton and Delon Armitage have been rightly castigated for seeemingly taking the piss with their pre score celebrations, especially Armitage in the Heineken Final. Not a peep was said about Phillips today for doing exactly the same?
Can you tell I am bitter? :-)
Anyway, much more interested in the England tour and liking what I see in the line up for tomorrow's match. With the two tests on BBC next week, it will be great to see how our young talent and flair go.
It would be absolute madness if at least Coles and Tuilagi weren't in the test team. I don't trust Gatland though.
So you'd have Cole instead of Adam Jones? Seriously?
Yep, Coles is a more dynamic player in the loose and is still an excellent scrummager.
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To be honest before the squad was selected I was almost certain of a Lions series victory. Now I'm leaning towards a mediocre Aussie side.
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Whilst I understand that a lot of people are sceptical of such a heavy Welsh bias, this could actually be to the advantage of the Lions.
Already, half the squad understand the system and tactics that Gatland is looking for instead, as in previous years, trying to get 37 players up-to-speed in 3 weeks.
If the non-Welsh contingent can buy into it, we will be in business.
As for Wales' dreadful recent record against Australia, most have those defeats have been very narrow and I think the addition of the likes of O'Driscoll, O'Connell and Sexton plus maybe Tuilagi off the bench are more than enough to make the crucial difference.
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Whilst I understand that a lot of people are sceptical of such a heavy Welsh bias, this could actually be to the advantage of the Lions.
Already, half the squad understand the system and tactics that Gatland is looking for instead, as in previous years, trying to get 37 players up-to-speed in 3 weeks.
If the non-Welsh contingent can buy into it, we will be in business.
As for Wales' dreadful recent record against Australia, most have those defeats have been very narrow and I think the addition of the likes of O'Driscoll, O'Connell and Sexton plus maybe Tuilagi off the bench are more than enough to make the crucial difference.
That's clearly the point. The problem is that is it right for the manager of wales to get the job and select most of his welsh team regardless of fitness and form, or the availability of better options.
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I'm not sure what your point is. Gatland was the only candidate for the job on the basis that Wales have been the dominant home union of recent years, last years' blip apart. The Welsh would have made up the largest chunk of the squad regardless of who the coach is.
Time will tell l guess.
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I'm not sure what your point is. Gatland was the only candidate for the job on the basis that Wales have been the dominant home union of recent years, last years' blip apart. The Welsh would have made up the largest chunk of the squad regardless of who the coach is.
Time will tell l guess.
On the basis of the previous 12months did Robshaw deserve to be sat at home whilst Warburton who'd been in terrible form until the England game got the captaincy? Adam Jones will almost certainly start despite Dan Cole being in outstanding form for the last 18months, is that right?
All said, regardless of what happens in this lions tour I think there were 4-5 selections that were wrong, whether the lions win 3-0 or not those selections were still wrong.
However, I'm not that bothered by the lions this year because the players I want to see get international recognition are mostly in south america.
On that subject, Billy V got a 6 minute hattrick against the consur select side tonight. The kid is so special, watching him a couple of years ago when he first broke through was a lot like seeing Benteke's early performances, everything you want was there, it was just giving it all time to come together.
Match report - here (http://www.rfu.com/news/2013/june/news-articles/020613_eng_consur_report)
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Gatland was definitely wrong not to take Robshaw and Wood in the party. Good to see Billy have a good game.
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I'm not sure what your point is. Gatland was the only candidate for the job on the basis that Wales have been the dominant home union of recent years, last years' blip apart. The Welsh would have made up the largest chunk of the squad regardless of who the coach is.
Time will tell l guess.
On the basis of the previous 12months did Robshaw deserve to be sat at home whilst Warburton who'd been in terrible form until the England game got the captaincy? Adam Jones will almost certainly start despite Dan Cole being in outstanding form for the last 18months, is that right?
Yes it is right in both cases. The only flankers that Robshaw maybe should have gone instead of are Croft and Lydiate. As for Adam Jones, he is arguably one the best tight-heads in the world at the moment, so yes he should be ahead of Dan Cole.
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Healy looks fucked, Mako has come on and made a good impact.
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Surprised and disappointed Billy and Foden aren't starting for England this weekend.
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Surprised and disappointed Billy and Foden aren't starting for England this weekend.
Billy V I understand, Morgan is quality and deserves his place, the 2 of them will fight over that shirt for a few years.
Foden I find strange given his form in the last 3months, much better player than Brown.
Strettle I can't work out at all, he's just not international quality, Yarde or May should've started.
I'm a bit surprised that he is still unwilling to play lawes and launchbury together.
Burns, 36 and JJ looks a fantastic 10,12,13 combo. If the forwards get the power on we'll be devestating in the loose.
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Surprised and disappointed Billy and Foden aren't starting for England this weekend.
Billy V I understand, Morgan is quality and deserves his place, the 2 of them will fight over that shirt for a few years.
Foden I find strange given his form in the last 3months, much better player than Brown.
Strettle I can't work out at all, he's just not international quality, Yarde or May should've started.
I'm a bit surprised that he is still unwilling to play lawes and launchbury together.
Burns, 36 and JJ looks a fantastic 10,12,13 combo. If the forwards get the power on we'll be devestating in the loose.
Very excited by this pick from Lancaster, much more than I am for the Lions on Saturday even though we have a decent representation of English players in the latest team.
I believe we missed Morgan more than anyone in the 6 Nations this year, missed his ball carrying and offloading immensely. I think at this stage, it is right for Billy to come off the bench and wreak havoc in the later stages.
I also think Brown deserves a chance in his correct position, he has been stuffed to some extent by being plonked on the wing and I am interested to see what he brings to the party on Saturday. We know what Foden and Goode can do, these two games should make Lancaster's mind up as to who is his long term 15. As an aside, I think Foden has admitted that he is behind Brown at the moment.
In terms of Launchbury and Lawes, does it have anything to do with whether either of them can call a line out?. I quite like Attwood though, we need a hard bastard in the 2nd row and he may just be it?
Interesting to see Wood in his best position at 6 and the back row as a whole looks better balanced.
Burns, 36 and JJ could be stunningly effective or maybe it will go the other way :-). I guess that Manu will come back in but whether that is at inside or outside centre is open to question?
Strettle I just can't work out and maybe that is Lancaster's one blind spot?. Certainly Yarde or May have more pace and finish better than he has ever done or ever will do.
All in all can't wait for BBC2 on Saturday evening.
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All in all can't wait for BBC2 on Saturday evening.
Very excited now, I'm really looking forward to seeing our midfield, I think we might bee a bit special in there.
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All in all can't wait for BBC2 on Saturday evening.
Very excited now, I'm really looking forward to seeing our midfield, I think we might bee a bit special in there.
what time?
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Ignore me. Found it.
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Good start, really strong in defence, bashing them backwards. Great first kick from Freddie.
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pure brilliance from Wade, cut them to ribbons and had the brains to look for support, very impressive.
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absolutely stunning opening half hour from England. We are relentless. Wade and 12trees playing very well. Importantly, great kicking from Burns also.
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went off the boil a little in the last 5 but it looks very warm. Wade, Burns and 12trees have been excellent, Wade in particular has been easily the best player on the pitch.
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This could be a very big score. I reckon we'll get close to60.
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Do you think that if as expected Bowe is ruled out of the rest of the Lions tour that Wade may be called up ???
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sluggish stuff second half.Silly penalties.
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Do you think that if as expected Bowe is ruled out of the rest of the Lions tour that Wade may be called up ???
I'm amazed he wasn't there in the first place, he should be top of the list, will be a shame though as I'd like him to stay with England for the next game now. Man of the match for me, was key to everything we did well in the first half, 2nd half we didn't get the ball to him anything like enough.
Very disappointed with Strettle the other side his concentration just isn't good enough for this level.
Foden is a step up in class from Brown, he looked much more positive andd just runs better lines.
In general we need to break the habit of kicking the ball away so often, there were 5-6 kicks today which were the wrong option, Burns a few times and Brown a few times and they do nothing positive for the team.
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Do you think that if as expected Bowe is ruled out of the rest of the Lions tour that Wade may be called up ???
I'm amazed he wasn't there in the first place, he should be top of the list, will be a shame though as I'd like him to stay with England for the next game now. Man of the match for me, was key to everything we did well in the first half, 2nd half we didn't get the ball to him anything like enough.
Very disappointed with Strettle the other side his concentration just isn't good enough for this level.
Foden is a step up in class from Brown, he looked much more positive andd just runs better lines.
In general we need to break the habit of kicking the ball away so often, there were 5-6 kicks today which were the wrong option, Burns a few times and Brown a few times and they do nothing positive for the team.
Visser probably next cab off the rank when it comes to wingers I would have thought. The fact that he is 6'6" will suit Gatland's gameplan.
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Do you think that if as expected Bowe is ruled out of the rest of the Lions tour that Wade may be called up ???
I'm amazed he wasn't there in the first place, he should be top of the list, will be a shame though as I'd like him to stay with England for the next game now. Man of the match for me, was key to everything we did well in the first half, 2nd half we didn't get the ball to him anything like enough.
Very disappointed with Strettle the other side his concentration just isn't good enough for this level.
Foden is a step up in class from Brown, he looked much more positive andd just runs better lines.
In general we need to break the habit of kicking the ball away so often, there were 5-6 kicks today which were the wrong option, Burns a few times and Brown a few times and they do nothing positive for the team.
Visser probably next cab off the rank when it comes to wingers I would have thought. The fact that he is 6'6" will suit Gatland's gameplan.
Hence I said should be, I'm sure he won't be, I actually think Gatland would be more likely to call for Strettle of the wingers who played today as he is probably more suited to the game wales/the lions seem to play (lots of kicks onto the wings for them to power on to).
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He's called up Zebo. A definite weakening of the squad.
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Just outstanding first half and playing the Rugby that I have wanted and know we are capable of, for a long time. Our 10/12 was a massive step up from the Farrell/Barritt combo of the Autumn and 6 Nations, yes I know that it was only Argentina but he mustn't go back to them again. Thought JJ did very well at outside centre, his feet and offloading for Strettle's try was superb and not really talked about by the experts.
Although he scored one try, Strettle should have had a hat-trick and it was pure laziness and lack of concentration that stopped him. He really isn't good enough for this level and I want to see either May or Yarde starting next Saturday.
Thought our forwards were excellent and very very impressed with Attwood in the 2nd row. Launchbury again proved why he should not only be on the Lions tour, he should be starting in the test match 15. There isn't a better all round lock in our islands !!!.
Back row balance was excellent and that was Morgan's best game at number 8 for us. As I said earlier this week we massively missed him in the 6 Nations and his running, strength and offloading were of a different quality last night. Another one who should be in Australia. Billy V was great when he came off the bench and he will be a terrific impact player for us going forward.
Yes it wasn't Argentina's top team but the intent to play was there and that is a start. Referee pinged us unbelievably second half which meant we couldn't get any flow to our game and as Paul said, kicked it away too much. If we remember not to do that next week and keep ball in hand for full 80 mins, we will go well again I am sure.
All in all shows our strength in depth and leaves Lancaster with some headaches for his EPS selection whenever that is.
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Watched it back this morning, there's a break from Burns on about 25minutes that Farrell couldn't even dream of.
The important thing, for all that extra sparkle with the ball in hand we looked rock solid in defence, so it's not like 12trees for Barritt weakened that side of the game.
One more, Kvesic played extremely well, did all the dirty work you want from a 7 and was heavily involved in generating quick ball that led to a few of our chances. Also has that willingness to push the rules a bit as shown by the last try. As I've said all along Robsaw is a very good layer but we can't use him in every game, sometimes you need a 7 who is there to get the ball to the guys outside. The wales game we really suffered by not generating quick ball ourselves and allowing Wales to do it too readily. Kvesic for Robshaw in that match would've made a huge difference.
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Sounds like we were great, particularly in the first. Good to see us playing with flair and bodes well for the future. Wade has to play for us moving forward.
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Another performance in the same class and I'd be fairly sure Wade, Foden and 12trees had cemented there places in the team, all 3 showed they're a step up on anyone else who's played in those positions.
I think Burns is very close as well, and I'm fairly confident that Wood will be first choice at 6 going forward.
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I can't remember the last time i looked forward to seeing a player as much as Wade.
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Twelvetrees is now a Lion!
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Twelvetrees is now a Lion!
Rightly so, if lancaster hadn't lost his nerve and brought Barritt back in 12trees would've been one in the first place, Wade should be there as well, but again we have been very conservative in giving him a chance.
The news is that 12trees is being replaced by Eastmond at 12 and Yarde will be in for Strettle. I'm happy with the first as I want to see what he can do and the 2nd is righting a very serious wrong from the first test, Strettle shouldn't be anywhere near the squad let alone the team, he's fine at club level but has been found out repeatedly at international level. Saracens have easily the most boring backline in the premiership and yet most of them are regulars in the england squad, whilst the players at Wasps and Glaws have been stuck on the sidelines.
If England call a replacement for 12trees (I dount it) I hope it's Elliott Daly, he's another one of the round of young kids who has the potential to be anything he wants, we need to get this kids around the squad as much as possible.
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Yarde in for Strettle.
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1-14 he's got right from what's available. 15 I just don't see how Brown is ahead of Foden in the 20odd minutes he was given Foden caused loads more problems and he's not defensively weak in any way. I'm yet to see anyone provide any meaningful reason why Foden has been, effectively, relegated to 3rd choice fullback, despite being one of the few highlights of Johnno's time in charge.
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Christian Wade called up for Lions.
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What a try from Eastmond, unbelievable balance to get through there.
Wood has been near perfect, Burns and Yarde have been exceptional.
Argentina wing has just got a sickener of an injury.
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Another excellent try for Yarde. The team that has played on this tour is closer to side that should play in the autumn than the team that played in Cardiff.
Hopefully Strettle, Barritt and Goode won't get back in, and I think Lancaster has probably started to see the value of a properly balanced Backrow. Wood put in 2 captains performances, Kvesic looked born play at this level and the situation at 8 has gone from a 6 out of position to 2 excellent options fighting it out.
Great tour, 2 wins in Argentina with over half a squad missing (and having had a winger called up to the lions on the day of the game) is a massive result and we really need to start trusting these flair players to win us games, starting in the autumn.
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Christian Wade called up for Lions.
I think he should have been in the original squad.
But then so should Robshaw, Wood and Launchberry
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That tour is great for us, it's shown what some young flair players can do.
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That tour is great for us, it's shown what some young flair players can do.
Yep, just hope Lancaster doesn't go back to the formulaic approach for the autumn. Barritt, Goode and Brown are not the answer and we have much better options in those positions.
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Goode is definitely not the option.
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Lions wise Croft was impressive yesterday and must start now. Ben Youngs I feel is in considerably better form than Phillips, yet Phillips will definitely start for Gatlands style of play. Tom Youngs appears in better nick than Hibbard also, but again he'll pick Hibbard.
It will be interesting to see who partners O'Driscoll in the centre now Roberts appears to be out. Davies has been in outstanding form, but Gatland seems to want a strong 12 in there so Tuilagi should start if fit.
I suppose the right wing is a bit of an issue as Maitland has been poor and Cuthbert has flattered to deceive. I'd expect Cuthbert to get the nod though.
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Watching the Junior world Cup Semi-final v France. NZ v England. 55 mins in and England are 23-11 up. Strong first half and we just looked bigger, better, and stonger. Very unusual for what is an U21 side from the Northern hemisphere look better physicallyand in general size compared to a same aged Southern hemisphere side. Some very good running too. NZ coming back into it 2 nd half and we have been sloppy in attack with the ball. the complete opposite of the first-half. But we still look good. As I say that not releasing the ball, penalty NZ. In their half though.
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starting too look more ragged now. They seem to be at their physical maximum now whilst NZ still look strong.
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23-21 now 72 mins. England are really on their last legs. can they hold out?
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They've done very well.
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TRY! ENGLAND!!! 75 mins 30-21.
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It's over. Brilliant effort.
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All over. 33-20. Great response last 10 mins or so. Into the final against Wales. Its the first time NZ have not appeared in the final at this level. jack Clifford, and Hankin or Rankin, the number 7. Henry Slade kicked 7 from 7 from all angles. Overall too much firepower. If this is it the future is very bright.
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It is very bright and the back row were fantastically mobile.
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Well done the babbies.
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Great results for both Wales and England today in the Junior RWC. Beating the junior South African and New Zealand sides are great achievements.
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Youth rugby in europe has come on massively in the last 10 years and the national sides at this level and seniors are starting to really feel the benefit of it now.
I didn't see the game today unfortunately but this young England side looks a bit special. Anthony Watson is the star turn and I see he got a try just before half time today, I fully expect him and Elliot Daly to be fighting over the 15 shirt in the seniors with Foden in the next 2 years.
One of the comments is praising the backrow - we;ve got a very strong set of young back rows, all 3 spots are going to be heavily contested going forward, Clifford is going to be a big player, he's played a lot of 7s and gets around the park superbly. He's not on a par with Vunipola (who's the same age) but I think he'll become a good utility backrow if he can improve in the tight, if not he'll probably end up as a 6.
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I've watched the highlights:
Clifford's 7s experience showed for the first try, a lovely step, great turn of pace delayed the pass long enough to take the fullback completely out of the game, really good try.
Watson interception and put on the burners to stroll in for the 2nd.
3rd was great work on the try line, just nudged our way over, kept it secure by head down and going really low at the line and getting players up and in behind quickly to avoid the turnover.
Slade kicked brilliantly.
The Baby Blacks looked a really good side and were rightly favourites, it was a massive win for us.
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Staggered that Gatland has seen fit to pick 3 Englishmen for the starting test team. Slightly surprised that Youngs is in ahead of Hibbard, even though he is a far superior hooker. Nothing that I have seen so far has changed my opinion that the test team was largely picked before the tour party left. Adam Jones, although a great scrummager has not had the greatest of tours and yet is picked in front of Cole who has shown a lot more. Mike Phillips has been ponderous in the extreme and yet is picked because he "is a big game player". If he hadn't been injured then Jamie Roberts would have been a certainty despite being a complete one trick boshing pony and the best centre on tour Jonathan Davies would have been left out.
To re-iterate the above posts, fantastic for Northern Hemisphere Rugby that both England and Wales beat the SH to reach the U20 final. Can't wait to watch it on Sunday and hoping for the same result as in the U20 Six Nations at Colwyn Bay.
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Great to see a fellow "Son of the A48", Alex Cuthbert, starting for the Lions
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Great to see a fellow "Son of the A48", Alex Cuthbert, starting for the Lions
Born in Glos actually (like me), and went to Newent school. Close to Forest I guess.
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Great to see a fellow "Son of the A48", Alex Cuthbert, starting for the Lions
Born in Glos actually (like me), and went to Newent school. Close to Forest I guess.
As Dave has said above the team was picked before they left in the main, I'd add cuthbert to the list of those who probably isn't in the team based on Lions performances so far.
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Great to see a fellow "Son of the A48", Alex Cuthbert, starting for the Lions
Born in Glos actually (like me), and went to Newent school. Close to Forest I guess.
As Dave has said above the team was picked before they left in the main, I'd add cuthbert to the list of those who probably isn't in the team based on Lions performances so far.
Don't think Cuthbert would be in the team if Bowe was fit to be honest. Gatland plays a certain way and certain players are key to that style of play (Phillips and Roberts being two examples).
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Great to see a fellow "Son of the A48", Alex Cuthbert, starting for the Lions
Born in Glos actually (like me), and went to Newent school. Close to Forest I guess.
As Dave has said above the team was picked before they left in the main, I'd add cuthbert to the list of those who probably isn't in the team based on Lions performances so far.
Don't think Cuthbert would be in the team if Bowe was fit to be honest. Gatland plays a certain way and certain players are key to that style of play (Phillips and Roberts being two examples).
Which sums up why I'm not impressed with the way he's handling things so far, I still think the lions will win the series, I think Australia will just be totally outgunned in the pack. Warburton is the biggest problem, he's been poor for a year other than the game against England and yet he's the captain. I also think he picked too small a squad and picked too many players with dubious fitness (Bowe being the prime example), making late call ups is ok, making the amount of late call ups he has is wrong, another 6-7 in the original party and a much stricter fitness deadline wold've meant the other teams (read England) wouldn't have been changing their team on matchday to cover for very late call ups.
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All very surprised and a little disappointed in Queensland that Quade Cooper isn't in the Wallabies side (let alomne the squad). Moving James OÇonnor in to Fly Half is a risk and Cooper would have been perfect in the back end of a high tempo, physical game when there's a little more space - also OÇonnor would have been perfect running the lines which Cooper could have fed him in to.
Expect the Lions to out scrummage the Wallabies and win the forwards battle, partucularly at the breakdown as Pocock is a big loss.
Weather is wet today but tomoorow will be fine and Sunny and about 15c at kick off, with little wind or no wind - perfect conditions that might suit the Wallabies running style more.
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Great to see a fellow "Son of the A48", Alex Cuthbert, starting for the Lions
Born in Glos actually (like me), and went to Newent school. Close to Forest I guess.
As Dave has said above the team was picked before they left in the main, I'd add cuthbert to the list of those who probably isn't in the team based on Lions performances so far.
Don't think Cuthbert would be in the team if Bowe was fit to be honest. Gatland plays a certain way and certain players are key to that style of play (Phillips and Roberts being two examples).
Which sums up why I'm not impressed with the way he's handling things so far, I still think the lions will win the series, I think Australia will just be totally outgunned in the pack. Warburton is the biggest problem, he's been poor for a year other than the game against England and yet he's the captain. I also think he picked too small a squad and picked too many players with dubious fitness (Bowe being the prime example), making late call ups is ok, making the amount of late call ups he has is wrong, another 6-7 in the original party and a much stricter fitness deadline wold've meant the other teams (read England) wouldn't have been changing their team on matchday to cover for very late call ups.
I'm with you now Paul on disliking Gatland. I thought it was an insult to the England team that he chose Wade on the day of the match as they must have known whoever he was covering was injured beforehand, think it was Bowe. Wouldn't surprise me if it was a deliberate move to cause maximum damage to the planning for the test v Argentina
Can't wait for this tour to be over so Gatland can get back to his day job of picking giants in a rugby team and trying to bosh everything that moves. The Six Nations game at Twickenham is one I am eagerly awaiting in the hope we will exact full revenge for Cardiff last March. Just have to trust Lancaster to get the right players in the right positions
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I too am amazed he picked Tom Youngs. He has been the best hooker by a considerable distance, but on the other hand he's English so Gatland must have really struggled with that one.
I've changed my opinion again and believe the Lions should have too much up front for the Aussies to cope with. I think they'll win the series despite Gatland's poor squad selection and general fuckwittery.
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All very surprised and a little disappointed in Queensland that Quade Cooper isn't in the Wallabies side (let alomne the squad). Moving James OÇonnor in to Fly Half is a risk and Cooper would have been perfect in the back end of a high tempo, physical game when there's a little more space - also OÇonnor would have been perfect running the lines which Cooper could have fed him in to.
Expect the Lions to out scrummage the Wallabies and win the forwards battle, partucularly at the breakdown as Pocock is a big loss.
Weather is wet today but tomoorow will be fine and Sunny and about 15c at kick off, with little wind or no wind - perfect conditions that might suit the Wallabies running style more.
Just out of interest Oz, how are Lions tours viewed in that part of the world compared to games against NZ and SA?
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All very surprised and a little disappointed in Queensland that Quade Cooper isn't in the Wallabies side (let alomne the squad). Moving James OÇonnor in to Fly Half is a risk and Cooper would have been perfect in the back end of a high tempo, physical game when there's a little more space - also OÇonnor would have been perfect running the lines which Cooper could have fed him in to.
Expect the Lions to out scrummage the Wallabies and win the forwards battle, partucularly at the breakdown as Pocock is a big loss.
Weather is wet today but tomoorow will be fine and Sunny and about 15c at kick off, with little wind or no wind - perfect conditions that might suit the Wallabies running style more.
Just out of interest Oz, how are Lions tours viewed in that part of the world compared to games against NZ and SA?
Lions tours are viewed as the biggest tours. As someone living in NZ the Lions with their 20,000 - 25,000 fans (ex-pats and people coming over) is viewed as the ultimate rugby tour. Australians don't think any differently to Kiwis in this sense. Given tonight at Brisbane there will be 52K fans and at least half will be Lions fans adds to the atmosphere.
Last time the Lions came to NZ I went to a couple of test matches and it isn't about the games so much as the party atmosphere and packed pubs over a whole weekend with a great atmosphere. It's just so much bigger than a normal Rugby test.
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I'm at work doing some overtime this morning, so avoiding all reports until I can get back watch the recording at lunch time.
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Lions to win by 9 today.
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53 seconds gone, already a fella stretchered off
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The Aussies have started better than I expected - early days yet though.
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Wow, this test is pretty good after 30 only minutes
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I do like the way the referees decision is respected in rugby - you never teams surrounding the ref or running 40 yards to debate a decision - very little dissent.
Lovely open game to watch - very enjoyable .
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Terrible luck for the aussies with injuries here, I think the lions would've won either way but 3 backs off after 46minutes makes it really tough.
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Terrible luck for the aussies with injuries here, I think the lions would've won either way but 3 backs off after 46minutes makes it really tough.
The move of the Aussie flanker into the centre was brilliantly exploited by Sexton to set up Alex Cuthbert's try (albeit with the help of a crafty bit of obstruction by O'Driscoll).
Falau is incredible, being as he's only played a dozen games of Union before today.
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In international Rugby Union, it doesn't matter how good your running and handling is, you've got to kick your goals.
The Aussies will have to pick a specialist kicker for the second test
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Then lions have some lessons to learn there though, kicked hte ball away a hell of a lot.
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Lions got Lucky with the last play. Long may it continue.
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I see emile has been advising the Aussies on their kicking accuracy :)
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Well they won, which is obviously the main thing.
For 50 minutes they played quite well, but for the last 30 were pretty poor to be honest. The Aussie injuries strangely affected us negatively apart from the Cuthbert try. We really should have put them away considering the bad luck they had with those knocks. It shouldn't have needed two poor attempts at goal from Beale to see us over the line. There needs to be some honest words spoken in the dressing room now. We definitely got away with it today.
On the plus side Tom Youngs was outstanding and we scored two great trys. Phillips was predictably poor.
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On the. Bennet quotes; on the current topic of rugby, how about this one:
"Look what these bastards have done to Wales. They've taken our coal, our water, our steel. They buy our homes and live in them for a fortnight every year. What have they given us? Absolutely nothing. We've been exploited, raped, controlled and punished by the English-and that's who you are playing this afternoon".
Phil Bennet
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Shit! Posted in the wrong thread. Should have gone into the Summer Transfer thread.
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Well Kurtley Beale likes the wrong type of bottle it seems!
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Fucking hell that was tense. Two points, the referee was a fucking disgrace as was Phillips.
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Agreed Phillips was Terrible, and the Ref well! Seemed familiar to what we get at Villa Park.
I'm flying out there on Tuesday and can't bloody wait!
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Phillips is shit, he's always been shit and always will be shit.
He plays like he's a backrow forward who happens to find himself filling in at scrum half. I genuinely can't think of an international scrum half with a higher percentage of hospital passes, he's seems to aim for the head or feet of whoever he's passing at (not to). On his own he forces every team he plays for to kick for territory because the fly half gets no time to think.
Stupidly though he suits a Gatland team because Gatlands primary 'weapon' is the hanging crossfield kick for one of his giant wingers to get on the end of.
The lions did ok but Australia gifted us the result in my opinion. O'Connor is fantastic on the wing, he brings pace, strong running lines and a solid boot when he's isolated but there's no way that translates to an international class fly half. Even then they were 2 missed kicks away from beating us. I don't think Beales deserves much stick for the last one though, his standing leg slipped when he was midway through the swing, not a lot you can do to save that, I was surprised that the ref didn't force a restart though seeing as the ball went out before the 80 was up, should have been a 22 drop out, which, from the premiership final, we know can't be kicked to touch, so australia would probably have got the ball back in the Lions half.
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Well done Lions
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I know it's their 2nd string but Argentina currently9-12 down v Georgia. Very poor.
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I know it's their 2nd string but Argentina currently9-12 down v Georgia. Very poor.
Georgia are an emerging nation with an increasing number of players now playing in the french league
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Tom Youngs was excellent yesterday, his story gets overlooked but it really is a remarkable rise.
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Tom Youngs was excellent yesterday, his story gets overlooked but it really is a remarkable rise.
Agreed. He was for me the best Lions player yesterday.
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Tom Youngs was excellent yesterday, his story gets overlooked but it really is a remarkable rise.
Agreed. He was for me the best Lions player yesterday.
His story?
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In the sense he was a centre 3 years ago, and then converted to hooker and was playing in lower leagues and only started playing for Leicester last year.
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Junior World champions, well done lads.
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great stuff, and won it from 15-3 down with 25 to go.
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Unbelievable decision to let Horwill off for stamping. Unbelievable.
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Unbelievable decision to let Horwill off for stamping. Unbelievable.
I suppose ramming your studs down on someones head is now a legitimate means of regaining balance.
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Crazy decision, I can't see any reason for him to have got away with it, it was dangerous and deserved a ban, it's pretty simple.
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I genuinely don't see the point of Gatland having taken Wade other than it probably pissed England off to have him called up on match day. Not even giving him a spot on the bench for today means there's no chance he'll get anywhere near the test squad, so effectively he was called up to play in 1 midweek game, at the expense of getting an important start for England.
Twelvetrees has similarly been called up as cover with no meaningful opportunity to stake a claim in the squad. It would've been far better for both players to have stayed with England in my opinion.
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Completely agree.
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Sounds like Manu is having a good game.
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Some sad news that I should have posted earlier in the week.
Gloucestershire rugby legend Gordon Sargent died overnight on Monday at the age of 63
http://www.gloucestercitizen.co.uk/Rugby-Tributes-Mr-Lydney-Gordon-Sargent/story-19394535-detail/story.html
I've known Sarge and his wife Ann since I was a kid and worked with them on several rugby related projects over the years.
You couldn't find any people more committed to the sport than the Sargents.
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This is a real arm wrestle this game, Mako has come back brilliantly after a tough start.
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Bollocks.
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Frustrating defeat.
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Fair result I think. I'm not sure whether we were trying to keep it tight or whether we were simply outplayed.
We just didn't have enough of the ball to warrant winning.
The good news is it sets it up nicely for next week.
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Should have taken the scrum for the knock on before the Aussies try. The kick to touch was never going to go far from that position.
Aussies were the better team though.
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Not as entertaining as last week but still an epic game of Rugby
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Only understand the game at superficial level but in terms of supporting contest both games have been great. Well done to both sets of players for competing. Looking forward to next one.
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I think if the Lions end up losing this series, then it will have well and truly exposed Gatland as a very poor coach and tactician. I haven't seen anything to change my opinion that this is a mediocre Australian side, yet we have been second best for large parts of the series.
It will take changes to win next week.
My team
15 Halfpenny
14 Bowe
13 Tuilagi
12 Roberts
11 North
10 Sexton
9 B Youngs
8 Faletau
7 Warburton
6 Lydiate
5 Parling
4 Wyn Jones
3 Jones
2 T Youngs
1 Corbisiero
As great a player as O'Driscoll has been, he ain't no more. Tuilagi and Roberts would be an absolute nightmare for the Aussies to have to deal with. Faletau would offer so much more carrying than Heaslip, which in turn would create more opportunities for the centres to get over the gainline.
Vunipola settled down to have a very good game after a couple of poor opening scrums. However, I still believe he is more of an impact player and Corbisiero the better scrummager.
The Lions will never have a better chance to win a test series. New Zealand aren't going to be beaten in 2017.
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I feel quite vindicated in my criticism of Gatland now. He's a rugby equivalent of mon, has 1 plan which can prove reasonably successful but has no idea how to use better players to make the game more technical and is very unimaginative with changing things if the plan isn't working.
My biggest issue is his over reliance on tactical kicking, the Lions are kicking away far too much ball, particularly in Australia who base their entire game on broken-field running. If you're going to use the boot heavily in Oz you make sure the ball lands in the crowd.
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Don't know much about the tactical side of rugby, but loving the Lions tests
That thing that North did when he picked that bloke up and ran with him and used him as a human battering ram, is the best thing I've ever see on a rugby field
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Don't know much about the tactical side of rugby, but loving the Lions tests
That thing that North did when he picked that bloke up and ran with him and used him as a human battering ram, is the best thing I've ever see on a rugby field
The Ref could easily have pinged North for that. The way that the laws are these days, I doubt that it was really legal
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Don't know much about the tactical side of rugby, but loving the Lions tests
That thing that North did when he picked that bloke up and ran with him and used him as a human battering ram, is the best thing I've ever see on a rugby field
The Ref could easily have pinged North for that. The way that the laws are these days, I doubt that it was really legal
it's fine so long as he puts him down safely afterwards.
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Well that's either inspired or stupid.
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Hugely risky in dropping O'Driscoll completely imo. Yes, he was poor in the last test, but surely a player of his quality is worth a place on the bench?
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Gatland doesn't seem to be thinking very clearly, he brings Faletau straight into the team after not being in the squad at all. Then drops Tom Youngs who has been much better than Hibbard. Drops Ben Youngs from the squad completely along with O'Driscoll? and has Faletau and O'Brien in the same back row? It seems completely cluttered to me.
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Hugely risky in dropping O'Driscoll completely imo. Yes, he was poor in the last test, but surely a player of his quality is worth a place on the bench?
He's not versatile enough to be on the bench. Once he was dropped from starting XV, that was him finished.
Gatland took a risk last week by naming Cuthbert as the backs sub but he had to do that because it was Bowe's first game back from injury. Now that Bowe has a game under his belt, the backs sub needs to be able to cover both centre and wing. Manu Tuilagi can do that better than BOD
I'd prefer to see Hogg rather than Farrell on the bench
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Hugely risky in dropping O'Driscoll completely imo. Yes, he was poor in the last test, but surely a player of his quality is worth a place on the bench?
He's not versatile enough to be on the bench. Once he was dropped from starting XV, that was him finished.
Gatland took a risk last week by naming Cuthbert as the backs sub but he had to do that because it was Bowe's first game back from injury. Now that Bowe has a game under his belt, the backs sub needs to be able to cover both centre and wind. Manu Tuilagi can do that better than BOD
I'd prefer to see Hogg rather than Farrell on the bench
Disagree on that a specialist Fly half on the bench is vital, Hogg was not up to it when he played at Fly half.
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My concern would also be that Gatland is very much reverting to his 'Welsh' style and that'd be fine against England, France etc as they've had success. However against Australia that approach has consistently failed.
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I can already see how the game is going to pan out, that team is built entirely around kicking the ball high in the air and trying to get men around the catchers and force territory. I've said before Gatland is just like mon. He has his way of playing and sticks to it regardless, with his favourite players always picked and plan b is plan a with a few names changed. I also think the lions will win and it will come from the English players on the bench making a big impact.
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Can anyone explain to me what Faletau, Phillips and Hibbard have done to justify a place? The back row looks really unbalanced as well.
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Can anyone explain to me what Faletau, Phillips and Hibbard have done to justify a place? The back row looks really unbalanced as well.
play for Wales ?
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That genuinely appears to be the only reason, I really don't like or rate Gatland.
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Disagree on that a specialist Fly half on the bench is vital, Hogg was not up to it when he played at Fly half.
I thought that Hogg looked OK in the games I saw
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Disagree on that a specialist Fly half on the bench is vital, Hogg was not up to it when he played at Fly half.
I thought that Hogg looked OK in the games I saw
I thought it was notable how much the Lions improved in the midweek game they lost once Farrell came on, the game management was much better. I just don't think you can have a player who is not a specialist fly half and hasn't played at international level being our back up fly half.
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I think the decision not to have O'Driscoll in the squad is a shocker, because he was better than Davies last week and the knock on effect from losing his experience from the team will not help.
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Phillips is the one i find strangest, he effectively gives you a 4 man back row, which has a value at times, but you can't build a team around him (which you have to do) and expect to succeed at the highest level. He's a big part of why wales do well in years where the 6N is weak but they fall away when the other sides find some form.
Hibbard getting the starting spot is a joke, both him and Best have been appalling all tour, Hartley should have walked into the team with Youngs on the bench.
I don't mind Faletau getting a start, I don't think there's much between him and heaslip. I do think Morgan would've been there if he hadn't got injured in the 6N though.
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Phillips is the one i find strangest, he effectively gives you a 4 man back row, which has a value at times, but you can't build a team around him (which you have to do) and expect to succeed at the highest level. He's a big part of why wales do well in years where the 6N is weak but they fall away when the other sides find some form.
Hibbard getting the starting spot is a joke, both him and Best have been appalling all tour, Hartley should have walked into the team with Youngs on the bench.
I don't mind Faletau getting a start, I don't think there's much between him and heaslip. I do think Morgan would've been there if he hadn't got injured in the 6N though.
I thought B Youngs' lack of physicality was as problem last week and am not surprised that Phillips has been brought back in. There are rumours doing the rounds that he was dropped for disciplinary reasons last week, but I'm not sure how accurate those are. Phillips has got to improve massively from his performance in the first test though.
Hibbard is in for his scrummaging I would have thought. The presence of Corbisiero and Hibbard gives the Lions a much stronger scrum and I think it is an area that they will target on Saturday. He needs to get his lineout throwing right though, as I expect the Lions to catch and drive a lot at the weekend.
Faletau will give that extra presence and work rate in the tight and I agree with you that Morgan should have been selected if fit. If I'm honest, I'm surprised that Parling has remained in the team, as he has been a little lightweight so far.
As for BOD being dropped, Clive Woodward called for it in his Daily Mail column:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2352060/Lions-2013-SIR-CLIVE-WOODWARD--Beach-break-big-mistake.html
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I think Youngs has been good in the scrum and Hibbard has been awful all round and shouldn't be playing. Phillips is useless and Australia have his number completely.
I hope we win, but I think we'll struggle.
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On the backup fly half, I agree you need a specialist. I actually suspect the bench will increase again soon at the top level. Having to pick 3 front row, 1 scrum half and 1 fly half really limits the options. Most teams will want a specialist 2nd row and back row which leaves you needing a back can cover wing, centre and full back, which is very limiting. You normally see a fairly bullish centre in internationals as no one wants to lose a starting centre and end up leaving gaps. It makes giving wingers a bit of time quite tough. England have the advantage of Launchbury and Lawes being capable of playing back row so we could possibly split the bench into 4 and 4 but it's still risky.
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Staggering, absolutely staggering.
Just how pathetically does Phillips have to play to be overlooked? Genia tore him to pieces in the first test, absolutely humiliated him. Ok he got the better of Youngs also, but it was nowhere near as comprehensive.
Davies is an odd selection. He looks incredibly average to me. He offers next to nothing in attack and his passing is poor. Tuilagi and Roberts would have been a much better pairing.
Hibbard doesn't deserve his place either. His slightly better scrummaging does not account for Youngs better throwing, carrying, passing and tackling.
Its a very negative selection overall, based purely on power. If we score a try i'll be surprised.
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Staggering, absolutely staggering.
Just how pathetically does Phillips have to play to be overlooked? Genia tore him to pieces in the first test, absolutely humiliated him. Ok he got the better of Youngs also, but it was nowhere near as comprehensive.
Davies is an odd selection. He looks incredibly average to me. He offers next to nothing in attack and his passing is poor. Tuilagi and Roberts would have been a much better pairing.
Hibbard doesn't deserve his place either. His slightly better scrummaging does not account for Youngs better throwing, carrying, passing and tackling.
Its a very negative selection overall, based purely on power. If we score a try i'll be surprised.
The try threat is a hanging kick out to the wing for North or Bowe to use their power to barge into the corner.
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Fingers crossed for the Aussie's tomorrow against the Welsh lions.
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Come on Lions, in spite of the selection you need to win.
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Corbs over!!
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That was more than Phllips did in the first test.
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Scrum is crushing the Aussies.
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I like this ref a lot more.
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Aussies have come back into this now, despite being down to 14
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Australia score try on half time.
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Struggling now.
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The bench needs a big impact now.
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We're going to lose this by a distance
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It looked like the Lions' scrum domination was going to lead to a romp but its going to be close one now
EDIT - Or maybe not !
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Get over!
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We're going to lose this by a distance
I meant them
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Roberts is tiring, he should come off.
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Farrell on for Sexton, bit of a surprise.
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North over!
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Oh well I was wrong, Slaughter!
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A lot of pundits owe Warren Gatland an apology
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And myself, fair play he's got it right. Nice to see all the bench get on as well.
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Was that Christian Wade in the stands making himself look like a knob by combing his hair ?
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Player of the Tour award must go to Leigh Halfpenny
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It was.
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Miles Harrison is going well over the top know.
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Great to see Rowntree congratulating the rest of the coaching staff
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Brilliant display.
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Back page of all Australian newspapers tomorrow.........'No Sport Was Played Yesterday' hahahaha watch them all blame the ref whiney arsed convicts.
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A lot of pundits owe Warren Gatland an apology
Yes, pleased for him after every man and his dog criticised him during the week.
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Brilliant result, just back from the pub where the atmosphere was fantastic (despite a few amateur refs who never knwo the rules and who keep shouting out their incorrect interpretation of them all the way through, particularly as the mid morning drinking kicks in). Hats off to Gatland who made some big calls and who would have been panned had we lost. As it it, the omission of O'Driscoll etc will be completely forgotten. Way it goes I guess. Amazing too to see what people can put away in terms of food at 11.30am in the morning!
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A lot of pundits owe Warren Gatland an apology
Yes, pleased for him after every man and his dog criticised him during the week.
Including a few on here who should be wolfing down a large portion of humble pie today!!
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A lot of pundits owe Warren Gatland an apology
Yes, pleased for him after every man and his dog criticised him during the week.
Including a few on here who should be wolfing down a large portion of humble pie today!!
I'd guess I'm one that will be high on the list there but I don't think I need to retract anything. I still think he took the safe option of playing the players he knows in the way he knows and I still think the squad could've been much stronger if he'd not focused so much on picking players for a single game plan.
That said, today was a very good performance and the team played out his game plan very well. I've likened him to mon a lot and I stand by that, when everything falls into place you get a great performance like today.
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Who was it who was saying Gatland had picked the wrong squad regardless of the result?
Nothing further to add.
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I am another one who has slated Gatland and it would be churlish to deny him any praise now. He made some ballsy calls and the end result has justified the means. I can't say I enjoyed much of the tour and indeed until the last 20 or so mins today, I thought Australia played most of the attractive rugby. That said the last 20 the Lions totally overpowered them and came away with the right result.
I can't think of any better description of Gatland than Paul E's one of likening him to MON, absolutely perfect. He appears to just rely on power and physicality and for a winger such as George North to be under used as he has on this tour is tantamount to criminal. Very pleased however for Alun Wynn-Jones and Halfpenny who have been major successes in this series.
From an England point of view I think it is crucial that we keep Corbisiero fit and firing because he will make our pack so much better than it was for instance in Cardiff in March. I think also Farrell has probably developed as a player and person on the tour but really hope Burns starts the Autumns.
From a Northern Hemisphere point of view it is great that we have finally won a series and hopefully all the home countries will get a boost, but obviously Wales the most as they had the majority of players.
Roll on November !!!
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Well done Lions
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We are a better team than Australia. If gatland hadn't picked the wrong team - O'driscoll - in the 1st two games and have bad luck with injuries the3rdtest result would, and should, have been seen before the final test. Gatland got lucky.
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New Zealand completely tore the Aussies apart yesterday. The scoreline ended up being very flattering for the Aussies.
Its looking very difficult to stop them at the next WC
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New Zealand completely tore the Aussies apart yesterday. The scoreline ended up being very flattering for the Aussies.
Its looking very difficult to stop them at the next WC
I'll wait until NZ play SA before making any conclusions. The lions 3rd test showed that Australia are very poor if you get them on the back foot, an average pack and a couple of backs who have iffy defence isn't good enough to play against NZ or SA, I think they might get a bit embarrassed in this series, play off for 3rd with the argies, and I wouldn't be confident of them winning it.
Will be interesting to see NZ in the autumn.