Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: bertlambshank on July 04, 2012, 01:25:05 PM
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It's being done up at last.
Anybody know what it is opening as?
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a pub?
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a pub?
Not much call apart from a match day.
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Probably end up as a Co-op supermarket, that is the trend by us nowadays!
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My money's on an indian restaurant
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Used to be awful - I remember being in there and there being signs saying 'anyone caught taking or dealing drugs will be prosecuted - blah blah blah' and then the barstaff were snorting cocaine off the bar!
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Any news on whether Edward and Villa Social will still be open?
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Used to be awful - I remember being in there and there being signs saying 'anyone caught taking or dealing drugs will be prosecuted - blah blah blah' and then the barstaff were snorting cocaine off the bar!
I think that was the same time some feral local youths tried to rob my phone and wallet before being chased off. Classy place.
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My money's on an indian restaurant
You are almost correct. Not a restaurant more of a Big John type of place with spice!
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Used to be awful - I remember being in there and there being signs saying 'anyone caught taking or dealing drugs will be prosecuted - blah blah blah' and then the barstaff were snorting cocaine off the bar!
Did it make them serve any quicker?
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My money's on an indian restaurant
You are almost correct. Not a restaurant more of a Big John type of place with spice!
Do I win £10?
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Good question. I have been wondering for two seasons. It looks to have been converted into flats upstairs, so a shop or maybe restaurant downstairs is probably a good shout, especially given the area it is in.
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My money's on an indian restaurant
Unlikely as there are very few Indians living in the vicinity,mainly Pakistani ,Bangladeshi,Afghani.
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My money's on an indian restaurant
Unlikely as there are very few Indians living in the vicinity,mainly Pakistani ,Bangladeshi,Afghani.
There are very few Chinese in West Brom but we've got some Chinese takeaways.
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The chap who owns/owned the Edward is doing it up as a pub. That's what one of those lovely barmaids said towards the end of last season.
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My money's on an indian restaurant
Unlikely as there are very few Indians living in the vicinity,mainly Pakistani ,Bangladeshi,Afghani.
A remarkable conclusion. How did you come up with that?
I think you may find that Indian restaurant is a generic name and most if not all of these establishments are operated by Pakistanis and Bangalis.
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My money's on an indian restaurant
You are almost correct. Not a restaurant more of a Big John type of place with spice!
Do I win £10?
Sorry Des no money but I will buy you a chicken tikka nan roll if I meet you in the vicinity of VP this season.
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My money's on an indian restaurant
You are almost correct. Not a restaurant more of a Big John type of place with spice!
That would be perfect!
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My money's on an indian restaurant
Unlikely as there are very few Indians living in the vicinity,mainly Pakistani ,Bangladeshi,Afghani.
There are very few Chinese in West Brom but we've got some Chinese takeaways.
Thats because Yow Min Lye.
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Also discussed
http://www.heroesandvillains.info/forumv3/index.php?topic=42666.msg1728458#msg1728458
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Wow that's a pretty lengthy refurbishment.
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The chap who owns/owned the Edward is doing it up as a pub. That's what one of those lovely barmaids said towards the end of last season.
I thought it was the Yew Tree he'd bought?
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Anyone know what The Brittannia is nowadays ? I walk past on a matchday the windows are all blacked out but it seems to be a cross between a Sikh Temple and a curry house. Maybe a hybrid, blueprint for the future ?
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The chap who owns/owned the Edward is doing it up as a pub. That's what one of those lovely barmaids said towards the end of last season.
I thought it was the Yew Tree he'd bought?
I not actually sure thinking about it, she said the derelict pub by the church???
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Sounds like she meant the Tavern.
Maybe the barmaids at the Eddy aren't too clever. You can't have everything.
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Are you talking about the derelict pub between the villa leisure centre & the church ?
That place has been derelict for years, not sure it would be structurally sound enough to renovate ? Nice view of the flyover from the bedrooms mind
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Are you talking about the derelict pub between the villa leisure centre & the church ?
That place has been derelict for years, not sure it would be structurally sound enough to renovate ? Nice view of the flyover from the bedrooms mind
That's the Aston Tavern
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A rebuild of the Aston Tavern is part of the regeneration scheme that knocks down the ASC and Eddie. Or so someone said on the thread about it recently.
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Without digging out old threads to check im sure someone told me the regeneration thing including the ads,KE & Aston social was an April fool joke.
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If it was then someone has gone to an awful lot of trouble drawing up detailed plans for it.
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It seems strange that two pubs and the leisure centre would be knocked down and a fortune spent on renovating a pub a few yards away that must surely be close to falling down by now
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Im confused, is the Aston Tavern the derelict pub by the Aston expressway flyover, near the villa leisure centre ?
Is that pub owned privately or by a brewery / pub chain ?
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If it was then someone has gone to an awful lot of trouble drawing up detailed plans for it.
Don't forgot our brightest minds at the City Planning Department came up with the original road layout in front of Moor Street station that's been in permanent mother of all cone formations for about 5 years now!
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Im confused, is the Aston Tavern the derelict pub by the Aston expressway flyover, near the villa leisure centre ?
Is that pub owned privately or by a brewery / pub chain ?
Yes, that's the one. Don't know the ownership situation.
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If it was then someone has gone to an awful lot of trouble drawing up detailed plans for it.
Don't forgot our brightest minds at the City Planning Department came up with the original road layout in front of Moor Street station that's been in permanent mother of all cone formations for about 5 years now!
I used to walk from Moor St. Stn to Villa Park, via several pubs. Fuck me, you try to do so now and get lost before what used to be known as Gosta Green.
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I used to love the rat-pan. When I worked at VP we always used to meet in there before work (I only worked on matchdays). We used to get free membership as we worked on the gates and I used to like the wide selection of rolls on display ... cheese or ham. Cheese cob and a pint of Mickey Mouse - the real taste of home.
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Don't forgot our brightest minds at the City Planning Department came up with the original road layout in front of Moor Street station that's been in permanent mother of all cone formations for about 5 years now!
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aftab pls don't confuse highway engineers with planners
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I had the Council into see me last week about properties in Aston its absolutely correct they are planning to renovate the land starting under the flyover and down by the Social . The plans are for a giant Automotive Park and yes Tavern gets renovated
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I had the Council into see me last week about properties in Aston its absolutely correct they are planning to renovate the land starting under the flyover and down by the Social . The plans are for a giant Automotive Park and yes Tavern gets renovated
sorry whats a giant automotive park
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A site for car components factories I presume.
Anyway, fascinating stuff MM. Will you be expanding? New premises perhaps? Might it attract competitors?
Keep us updated mate.
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I had the Council into see me last week about properties in Aston its absolutely correct they are planning to renovate the land starting under the flyover and down by the Social . The plans are for a giant Automotive Park and yes Tavern gets renovated
sorry whats a giant automotive park
A huge car park?
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A site for car components factories I presume.
Anyway, fascinating stuff MM. Will you be expanding? New premises perhaps? Might it attract competitors?
Keep us updated mate.
Yes mate looking for another site aswell as keeping existing one . Because of what is happening with UK Car manufacturing won't bore you with the statistics but in a nutshell we have never made as many cars in the UK as we are now ! There is a lack of good sized available factories , Aston great motorway links and close to Jag and Land Rover . Council seriously looking at all of the area and creating an Automotive Park creating thousands of jobs in a high unemployment area . There will be lots of funding availiable and I know from first hand knowledge there are lots of companies in automotive looking to expand and they can't on their existing sites . The plans show Aston Tavern as being renovated but there are question marks / compulsory purchase to sort out with other pubs in the area . Queens Road Station I believe would also have to be relocated .
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Good luck with it mate.
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Don't forgot our brightest minds at the City Planning Department came up with the original road layout in front of Moor Street station that's been in permanent mother of all cone formations for about 5 years now!
aftab pls don't confuse highway engineers with planners
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I would love to know more myf as I alaways thought engineers executed plans?
Anyway going through is yesterday signs showed that new layout opens tomorrow. Looking forward to that.
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Yes mate looking for another site aswell as keeping existing one . Because of what is happening with UK Car manufacturing won't bore you with the statistics but in a nutshell we have never made as many cars in the UK as we are now !
OK not quite correct on numbers. The highest production years was 1970 with well over 2m vehicles produced however we didn't export much and made no money. We are now close to that number and exporting all over the world and making loads of money. This is great and city council are coming to the part to their credit.
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Hmmm... could have sworn they said it was a record year on the news the other week.
Anyway, no offence aftab, but there's very few people who are more knowledgable than MM on this subject.
He is a very big player in the sector, but he's called Mysteryman for a reason, so I'll leave it at that.
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No worries. I standby my statement. If he is a big player in the automotive manufacture in the midlands or for that matter anywhere else , direct or indirect, than I probably know him but as MM I dont so would also leave it at that.
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Looks like something's happening. Although the Mail used to run that story about a "super stadium" at the NEC once a month back in the 80's so make your own minds up:
http://www.birminghammail.net/news/top-stories/2012/08/02/demolition-plan-for-king-edward-vii-pub-in-aston-97319-31532186/
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Hope the barmaids aren't out of work long. Although I've got a couple of jobs they could do. They could come in handy but it's still a blow.
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You won't have to go far to renew your freindship with the barmaids Perc.
http://www.birminghammail.net/news/top-stories/2012/08/03/villa-fans-pub-king-edward-vii-could-be-moved-to-derelict-aston-tavern-97319-31543581/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
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So the Eddy is a profitable business for him? Maybe we should let him takeover the Holte as well as the Tavern and the Rat-Pan.
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So the Eddy is a profitable business for him? Maybe we should let him takeover the Holte as well as the Tavern and the Rat-Pan.
Who knows? It would be good to replace a demolished watering hole if at all possible.
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Too right. The Brittannia is a waste of a beautiful building as well.
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I'd be delighted to see the Aston Tavern reopened - used to be my drinking place before games in the 1970's / '80's.
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I can't see how the Aston Tavern could ever be profitable, possibly the worst pub location, under the A38 and nowhere near civilisation. At least the Eddy is on a main road.
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He must take a percentage of the barmaids' tips.
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Why would he take only a percentage ... Oh I see you said tips.
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Too right. The Brittannia is a waste of a beautiful building as well.
Too right it is.
As is the Swan and Mitre in the terracotta the Victorians threw up so often in Brum.
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I can't see how the Aston Tavern could ever be profitable, possibly the worst pub location, under the A38 and nowhere near civilisation. At least the Eddy is on a main road.
I agree, to be honest.
No boozer is going to remain afloat purely on match day drinking alone. The Aston Tavern is in a terrible location, and a terrible state.
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If the Aston Tavern is to be renovated next to a new industrial unit, there might be a fair bit of lunchtime business to justify its revival. But demolishing the King Edward will be a big mistake. Aston has lost enough of its historic buildings, yet the disgraceful Birmingham City Council appear to be hell bent on destroying the city in order to fill their own coffers. These idiots have got all the vision of a cross-eyed a mole in a shoebox.
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If the Aston Tavern is to be renovated next to a new industrial unit, there might be a fair bit of lunchtime business to justify its revival. But demolishing the King Edward will be a big mistake. Aston has lost enough of its historic buildings, yet the disgraceful Birmingham City Council appear to be hell bent on destroying the city in order to fill their own coffers. These idiots have got all the vision of a cross-eyed a mole in a shoebox.
In terms of Aston, that's a bit unfair, in terms of the city, it is totally incorect.
If it gets demolished it'll be to make way for a large industrial scheme employing lots of people, in a deprived area. You can argue pro and con that on the basis of whether the pub offers more to the area socially, or on the grounds of architectural merit, but I can't see how you can seriously argue they're doing it to fill their own coffers.
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The Demolition of the Church Tavern was scandalous but, if the King Eddy is to go, it will take away a major landmark.
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The problem with that area is the canal.
I bet they would love to shove a new road where it is.
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If the Aston Tavern is to be renovated next to a new industrial unit, there might be a fair bit of lunchtime business to justify its revival. But demolishing the King Edward will be a big mistake. Aston has lost enough of its historic buildings, yet the disgraceful Birmingham City Council appear to be hell bent on destroying the city in order to fill their own coffers. These idiots have got all the vision of a cross-eyed a mole in a shoebox.
In terms of Aston, that's a bit unfair, in terms of the city, it is totally incorect.
If it gets demolished it'll be to make way for a large industrial scheme employing lots of people, in a deprived area. You can argue pro and con that on the basis of whether the pub offers more to the area socially, or on the grounds of architectural merit, but I can't see how you can seriously argue they're doing it to fill their own coffers.
I'm not so sure. What was the motivation for demolishing Island House? Why are they determined to demolish the wholesale markets - would the proposed Travelodge, offices and retail units that are to replace them really be for the greater good of the city? Birmingham is gradually reinventing itself as a food destination, yet all the major chefs / restaurateurs in the city say that the closure of the markets would be a damaging to this movement. If anything, Birmingham needs more markets, not fewer.
And does anyone really believe that the proposed demolition of the Central Library is for aesthetic reasons? It's to clear the site for new offices and retail outlets, which will be in great demand because of the location, flow of people, etc. Yet there's already thousands of sq feet of empty office space in the city, as well as plenty of empty retail outlets.
Chamberlain square should be a civic space. It already has the Town Hall and BMAG. With a bit of imagination and vision the Central Library building could be turned into a museum of modern art and design - a tourist attraction. But no, let's have offices, they bring in money short term.
And so we come back to the King Edward. There's a lot of space for regeneration in this area, does any new development really need to encroach upon a 100-year-old pub that occupies a small tip of land between a fork in the road? Can't the council think up an alternative?
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And so we come back to the King Edward. There's a lot of space for regeneration in this area, does any new development really need to encroach upon a 100-year-old pub that occupies a small tip of land between a fork in the road? Can't the council think up an alternative?
With you all the way on that. Any development could incorporate the Edward. It shouldn't even be up for debate.
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If the Aston Tavern is to be renovated next to a new industrial unit, there might be a fair bit of lunchtime business to justify its revival. But demolishing the King Edward will be a big mistake. Aston has lost enough of its historic buildings, yet the disgraceful Birmingham City Council appear to be hell bent on destroying the city in order to fill their own coffers. These idiots have got all the vision of a cross-eyed a mole in a shoebox.
In terms of Aston, that's a bit unfair, in terms of the city, it is totally incorect.
If it gets demolished it'll be to make way for a large industrial scheme employing lots of people, in a deprived area. You can argue pro and con that on the basis of whether the pub offers more to the area socially, or on the grounds of architectural merit, but I can't see how you can seriously argue they're doing it to fill their own coffers.
I'm not so sure. What was the motivation for demolishing Island House? Why are they determined to demolish the wholesale markets - would the proposed Travelodge, offices and retail units that are to replace them really be for the greater good of the city? Birmingham is gradually reinventing itself as a food destination, yet all the major chefs / restaurateurs in the city say that the closure of the markets would be a damaging to this movement. If anything, Birmingham needs more markets, not fewer.
And does anyone really believe that the proposed demolition of the Central Library is for aesthetic reasons? It's to clear the site for new offices and retail outlets, which will be in great demand because of the location, flow of people, etc. Yet there's already thousands of sq feet of empty office space in the city, as well as plenty of empty retail outlets.
Chamberlain square should be a civic space. It already has the Town Hall and BMAG. With a bit of imagination and vision the Central Library building could be turned into a museum of modern art and design - a tourist attraction. But no, let's have offices, they bring in money short term.
And so we come back to the King Edward. There's a lot of space for regeneration in this area, does any new development really need to encroach upon a 100-year-old pub that occupies a small tip of land between a fork in the road? Can't the council think up an alternative?
Island House is right in the middle of the eastside development.
The wholesale markets are on incredibly valuable land next to the bull ring. They're not going to be flattened to build a Travelodge, either. In fact, they're not going to be relocated at all for the next three years. They're talking about relocating the markets, not doing away with them - there's a big difference.
The reasons the library is going are numerous, chief among them, the fact it doesn't work as a library, is falling to pieces, is a truly horrible building to behold, and in terms of location cuts the city centre in two. Don't forget, when it was built, there wasn't much city centre to speak of the Broad St side of the library. Look at it now.
The city council's job is to assist in the economic growth of the city, and make it a better place for the citizens to live in, and that's what they're trying to do.
It is nothing to do with filling their own coffers. For starters, if that were the case, they wouldn't have bothered spending hundreds of millions of pounds on a new library in the first place.
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If the Aston Tavern is to be renovated next to a new industrial unit, there might be a fair bit of lunchtime business to justify its revival. But demolishing the King Edward will be a big mistake. Aston has lost enough of its historic buildings, yet the disgraceful Birmingham City Council appear to be hell bent on destroying the city in order to fill their own coffers. These idiots have got all the vision of a cross-eyed a mole in a shoebox.
In terms of Aston, that's a bit unfair, in terms of the city, it is totally incorect.
If it gets demolished it'll be to make way for a large industrial scheme employing lots of people, in a deprived area. You can argue pro and con that on the basis of whether the pub offers more to the area socially, or on the grounds of architectural merit, but I can't see how you can seriously argue they're doing it to fill their own coffers.
I'm not so sure. What was the motivation for demolishing Island House? Why are they determined to demolish the wholesale markets - would the proposed Travelodge, offices and retail units that are to replace them really be for the greater good of the city? Birmingham is gradually reinventing itself as a food destination, yet all the major chefs / restaurateurs in the city say that the closure of the markets would be a damaging to this movement. If anything, Birmingham needs more markets, not fewer.
And does anyone really believe that the proposed demolition of the Central Library is for aesthetic reasons? It's to clear the site for new offices and retail outlets, which will be in great demand because of the location, flow of people, etc. Yet there's already thousands of sq feet of empty office space in the city, as well as plenty of empty retail outlets.
Chamberlain square should be a civic space. It already has the Town Hall and BMAG. With a bit of imagination and vision the Central Library building could be turned into a museum of modern art and design - a tourist attraction. But no, let's have offices, they bring in money short term.
And so we come back to the King Edward. There's a lot of space for regeneration in this area, does any new development really need to encroach upon a 100-year-old pub that occupies a small tip of land between a fork in the road? Can't the council think up an alternative?
Island House is right in the middle of the eastside development.
The wholesale markets are on incredibly valuable land next to the bull ring. They're not going to be flattened to build a Travelodge, either. In fact, they're not going to be relocated at all for the next three years. They're talking about relocating the markets, not doing away with them - there's a big difference.
The reasons the library is going are numerous, chief among them, the fact it doesn't work as a library, is falling to pieces, is a truly horrible building to behold, and in terms of location cuts the city centre in two. Don't forget, when it was built, there wasn't much city centre to speak of the Broad St side of the library. Look at it now.
The city council's job is to assist in the economic growth of the city, and make it a better place for the citizens to live in, and that's what they're trying to do.
It is nothing to do with filling their own coffers. For starters, if that were the case, they wouldn't have bothered spending hundreds of millions of pounds on a new library in the first place.
Why couldn't Island House be incorporated into the Eastside development?
According to the business birmingham website, this is what's proposed for the Wholesale Markets site:
"Type of real estate: Mixed-use scheme including a 210-bed Travelodge, a 340-bed, three -star plus Maldron conference hotel, 18,000 sq ft of retail units and 10,000 sq ft of offices, restaurants and bars."
Is the library really falling to pieces? And if they're demolishing it because its horrible to behold, there must surely be hundreds of other buildings in the city awaiting the same fate. Perhaps with a bit of creative thinking, the flow between Broad Street and Paradise Circus could be improved without demolishing the library? They're revamping New Street by putting cladding on it, so couldn't the same be done for the library to improve it aesthetically? I'm sorry, I don't buy it. The library's going because the new office space will bring in money. Meanwhile, the city is badly in need of attractions. With all the artefacts we have stashed away in a warehouse in Nechells, we could fill two museums. But no, we need more offices, apparently, despite all the empty ones we already have.
Look at the so called Big City Plan for Birmingham. It's claimed that they want to build more residential units for up to 5000 families in the city centre. Why? There are empty residential units all over the city, from the Jewellery Quarter to the canals.
Could all this development have something to do with the relationships between certain councillors and contractors, and all the money in between?
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Absolutely Jimbo.
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They're doing far more than putting cladding on it to revamp New Street, Jimbo.
it isn't just the library that interrupts that flow of people, either, look at the rest of the complex that is going, too.
I also don't really see "there are lots of other ugly buildings" as much of an argument to save the library, either. Good point about stuff in storage in Nechells. That's one other reason why the central library wasn't doing its job - the layout was so poorly designed for a library, there wasn't that much room for actual books.
The thing re the use of the markets site - even reading that description, it's obviously not just "to build a Travelodge", as you put it, is it?
Plus, that is only a "type" of development - ie a mix of hotel, office, retail - pretty much what you'd expect.
Once again, the discussion isn't about doing away with the wholesale markets, it is about relocating them. There's a big difference in that. Any responsible city council would wonder whether such valuable land should really be used as market space, which doesn't have to be in that exact spot.
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Obviously, I'm aware that New Street is getting more than just cladding, Paulie. Nevertheless, they're using cladding to 'improve' the facade. I used this example to suggest that the admittedly ugly library could have something similar.
I agree, the central library shouldn't be a library any more. Keep it and make it into a museum, a public building, instead of offices, or private buildings.
I didn't say the Wholesale Markets are to be demolished just to build a Travelodge. I said: "proposed Travelodge, offices and retail units." I know it's Monday morning, but please read what I wrote.
Can you tell me where exactly the council are planning to relocate the wholesale markets? Will it improve the markets and the relationship it has with the city? Because I'm thinking of the Aston Manor Transport Museum that was relocated from Aston, near the city centre, to an industrial unit in Aldridge. The council could have devised a city museum ticket, where people pay a small fee to be transported to various museums / attractions around the central Birmingham area. This could have brought more visitors to the Transport Museum. Now it's in Aldridge. Good work.
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They've not said where they're going to relocate it. One place they looked at was Witton, but the deal fell through. They now reckon it'll be at least 3 and possibly 5 years until it shifts anywhere.
Why does it have to continue to be that exact place? Surely so long as it is easily accessible and somewhere in or around the city centre, it can still do its job?
re the library space, I'll reserve judgement till we see the detailed plans for it. I'd imagine that some of the revenue from redeveloping the old library space will have - or will in future - contributed to the building of the new library.
Were they to keep the current library and covert it into a museum, I imagine the council tax payers wouldn't be too chuffed about paying for it. It also would no doubt take a lot more than cladding it to switch purposes, too.
One thing which is worth remembering is that anything that gets built on that site now is going to have to be way more sympathetic to the proximity to the town hall, which is grade 1 listed, than they were when they built the current library.
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This is the problem with relocating the wholesale markets. Where are they going to put them? They could just leave it alone, and celebrate it as the largest integrated wholesale market in the UK. Incorporate it into food tours of the city. Make Birmingham a destination for food tourists. Build a culture around it. Or they could look at sticking it out in the suburbs and making money from a short term plan for hotels, offices and shops that we probably don't need instead.
As far as the library goes, we have an opportunity to build a museum quarter for the city. I appreciate the current building would need altering, and that it would cost a fair whack, but there are ways to raise funding for such projects. The citizens of Manchester seem to welcome museums in their city, why should Birmingham be any different? And I've seen the current proposals for the site - they're utterly uninspiring, insipid and lacking in vision. At least the current monstrosity has character and some architectural significance. Let's use it, turn it to our advantage and create something exciting around it.
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I'm really not sure the wholesale markets being where they are is going to turn Birmingham into any more of a food destination than it already is.
Can you even go into them now? Can Joe Bloggs off the street go in at 6am and start taking photos? Would he even want to? It's a wholesale market in a run down building. Who would want to go and see that other than the people buying from there?
Birmingham has some good museums already - i don't really see how shoehorning another one into that building is going to improve things. Surely if it were a viable location (in terms of the building itself) for a museum, it would have got more attention already?
I'd much rather the council used the money from the redevelopment of that piece of land to fund things like getting the main traffic on Gt Charles Street entirely in a tunnel and doing something to better join the jewellery quarter to the city centre. That'd have much more of a long term positive impact that saving Central Library, surely?
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From a personal point of view i'd be against the markets leaving the city center. Once or twice a month when i'm town on a Saturday i'll pop down to them for a mooch and a few bits and pieces as they are so close and easy to get to. If they were moved outside the center I doubt i'd bother.
Obviously my few quid here and there makes no difference but I wonder how many are and would be like me?
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From a personal point of view i'd be against the markets leaving the city center. Once or twice a month when i'm town on a Saturday i'll pop down to them for a mooch and a few bits and pieces as they are so close and easy to get to. If they were moved outside the center I doubt i'd bother.
Obviously my few quid here and there makes no difference but I wonder how many are and would be like me?
Which markets are you referring to, though?
This is the wholesale market. Not the market down by the bull ring at the moment.
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All the top chefs in the city seem to think that moving the markets is a bad idea, and would impact on the thriving food scene in the city. Why create setbacks and problems? Birmingham's food offering has done wonders for raising the profile of the city. More than any of the expensive and frankly embarrassing advertising in London, for example. You don't get the New York Times bigging up a city because it's added a new budget hotel, some offices and shops to its portfolio. Would London demolish Smithfield market or Spitalfields? No, they're part of the city's culture. Our wholesale markets are a part of our city culture, and nobody has yet come up with a viable plan for relocation.
The BMAG is great, but a city of this size should have more to offer. Creating a museum quarter wouldn't be 'shoehorning', it would be using an existing building. The reason it hasn't got more attention is because, as a public facility, a museum would fall under the council's remit. But the council hasn't got the vision to improve Birmingham's museum / gallery offering. It wants offices. It wants to commission contractors to build offices we don't need. Why?
Good point about Great Charles Street. Let's fix that area and put some offices there if we need them.
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From a personal point of view i'd be against the markets leaving the city center. Once or twice a month when i'm town on a Saturday i'll pop down to them for a mooch and a few bits and pieces as they are so close and easy to get to. If they were moved outside the center I doubt i'd bother.
Obviously my few quid here and there makes no difference but I wonder how many are and would be like me?
Which markets are you referring to, though?
This is the wholesale market. Not the market down by the bull ring at the moment.
Ah that will teach me to read everything properly. For some reason I thought it was both wholesale and retail. Carry on and ignore the daft bugger.
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The council doesn't have the cash to build new museums. Look what happened with the Science Museum moving to the Thinktank, what was a free facility now costs £39 for a family of four.
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Incidentally, I'm reading The Belly Of Paris by Emile Zola at the moment. It's set in Les Halles, the grand Victorian markets of Paris. Les Halles were demolished in the late 1960s to make way for a soulless subterranean concrete shopping centre. Remind you of anything? Les Halles was replaced with an architectural disaster, and now this area is being redeveloped yet again. Who gains from all this demolishing and 'regeneration' but contractors and councillors? Now, Les Halles is a far cry from Birmingham's markets, but we never learn any lessons do we?
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The council doesn't have the cash to build new museums. Look what happened with the Science Museum moving to the Thinktank, what was a free facility now costs £39 for a family of four.
An excellent example. It now costs more money to see fewer exhibits, and yet we had a perfectly good science museum in the first place. And you're right, the council doesn't have the cash to build new museums, so let's use an existing building to house some of the fine exhibits that are currently stashed away at a warehouse in Nechells.
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The council doesn't have the cash to build new museums. Look what happened with the Science Museum moving to the Thinktank, what was a free facility now costs £39 for a family of four.
An excellent example. It now costs more money to see fewer exhibits, and yet we had a perfectly good science museum in the first place. And you're right, the council doesn't have the cash to build new museums, so let's use an existing building to house some of the fine exhibits that are currently stashed away at a warehouse in Nechells.
And in all that, you're assuming that that existing building should be the Central Library, and that it is economically or structurally feasible to turn it into a museum? That's hardly a zero cost plan, is it?
What about the rest of that horrible area - Fletcher's walk, the conservatoire, the Copthorne? It is a gigantic visual blight on the city centre, and is a massive pinch point between the two halves of the city.
re the Paris markets - it made way for a soulless grey building - you mean like the one that currently houses the Wholesale Markets and the other one that houses the library here?
I entirely understand the argument about not knocking down all our heritage. I would hate to make that mistake again. The thing is, the central library doesn't actually have any heritage. The need to conserve our history doesn't mean you don't knock down anything.
We need to look at preserving / rejuvenating the buildings we have which do have heritage - see the plans for the Grand Hotel, for example. That's a fantastic looking plan, bringing a grand old building back from dead, and is economically viable.
I also can't believe this bit:
Who gains from all this demolishing and 'regeneration' but contractors and councillors?
Surely you don't really believe this? If you do, you must have been gutted to see the old Bull Ring go.
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I'm always amused when well-meaning amateurs think their ideas are better than those of people whose job it is to come up with such things. Turning the wholesale market into a tourist destination, for example. It's hardly La Boqueria; the clue's in the name. If you want to walk round there at 4am watching crates of lettuce being fork-lifted into artics go ahead, but you'll be on your own.
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I'm always amused when well-meaning amateurs think their ideas are better than those of people whose job it is to come up with such things. Turning the wholesale market into a tourist destination, for example. It's hardly La Boqueria; the clue's in the name. If you want to walk round there at 4am watching crates of lettuce being fork-lifted into artics go ahead, but you'll be on your own.
Perhaps we should be welcoming the ideas of 'well-meaning amateurs', because far too many of the people whose job it has been to build and rebuild this city have got it so badly wrong? I'm sure I don't need to remind you of all the examples, but: the demolition of the Victorian library/Mason College, the disastrous ring road and the 1960s bullring. etc.
This market trader - one of your well-meaning amateurs - had an idea for regenerating the wholesale market area, and while he's no town planner, parts of his plan aren't as far-fetched as they may sound.
http://www.birminghammail.net/news/top-stories/2011/11/30/life-long-trader-s-vision-of-birmingham-wholesale-markets-revealed-97319-29866054/
It isn't beyond the realm of possibility to build a food culture around markets and wholesale markets, with stalls and small cafes, restaurants, etc. These things may require a bit of imagination and vision, but... nah, let's have a Travelodge and some shops and offices instead.
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It isn't beyond the realm of possibility to build a food culture around markets and wholesale markets, with stalls and small cafes, restaurants, etc. These things may require a bit of imagination and vision, but... nah, let's have a Travelodge and some shops and offices instead.
You make the wholesale markets sound like some great undiscovered architectural gem that we're at risk of losing, rather than this:
(http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/birmpost/aug2010/5/9/birmingham-wholesale-markets-689727062.jpg)
To be perfectly honest, hotels, shops and offices would be an improvement. There's no reason for the markets to occupy such a crucial, central site.
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Paulie, I'm talking about the demolition of buildings that may still have some use/worth, and the subsequent regeneration of those sites.
I haven't claimed that transforming the existing library into a museum / art space would be a zero cost plan. But I do wonder whether the council have fully explored the viability of such a plan, as well as all the alternatives. I'm concerned about another soulless building replacing the already soulless central library. Some would argue that the central library is a part of our recent heritage, and is a building of architectural worth. I'm not necessarily one of those people, but I'd hate to see a public building with potential get bulldozed for a bunch of office blocks that the city doesn't really need. If tomorrow they announced they were going to build a brand new museum on the site, I'd have no absolutely objection.
Of course, the old bullring had to go, and what has replaced it has been an improvement.
I'm with you on the Grand Hotel plan, it's just what was needed.
Re: the above post - again, where are they going to relocate the market to?
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Perhaps we should be welcoming the ideas of 'well-meaning amateurs', because far too many of the people whose job it has been to build and rebuild this city have got it so badly wrong? I'm sure I don't need to remind you of all the examples, but: the demolition of the Victorian library/Mason College, the disastrous ring road and the 1960s bullring. etc.
This market trader - one of your well-meaning amateurs - had an idea for regenerating the wholesale market area, and while he's no town planner, parts of his plan aren't as far-fetched as they may sound.
http://www.birminghammail.net/news/top-stories/2011/11/30/life-long-trader-s-vision-of-birmingham-wholesale-markets-revealed-97319-29866054/
It isn't beyond the realm of possibility to build a food culture around markets and wholesale markets, with stalls and small cafes, restaurants, etc. These things may require a bit of imagination and vision, but... nah, let's have a Travelodge and some shops and offices instead.
Those things were seen as the right thing to do at the time. It's easy in hindsight to say they were wrong, but nobody knows what would have happened had nothing been changed. It's like saying tower blocks were a bad idea; they were in the way they were built, but the housing stock they replaced was much, much worse for all the idealistic, rose-tinted look at the past we now have.
A market trader whose plan seems to revolve around spending a lot of someone else's money on the market where he works isn't exactly my idea of an impartial observer.
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Re: the above post - again, where are they going to relocate the market to?
They haven't said yet. They looked into Witton, but it became too expensive.
If they said they were relocating to somewhere daft, like the NEC or something, I'd be with you on it, it is the refusal to believe it can't be elsewhere that I don't agree with.
There surely can't be any objections on an architectural level to it going, can there? It and the car park next door are truly horrible buildings.
If you look nearby at what is happening to Digbeth Cold Storage, that's a good example of regeneration respecting and revitalising an old building. So is the custard factory. The difference is that those are buildings with real merit, that's the difference.
You also refer to loads of office blocks the city doesn't need - if the city didn't need them, developers wouldn't be building them.
There is a shortage of grade A office space in the city. That's why Snow Hill is being built now, and that's why office space will be built here, too. I think Paradise Circus is being developed by Argent - the same people who did Brindleyplace, which is often cited as a model city centre regeneration.
If it is anywhere near as good as Brindleyplace, it''ll be fantastic. They're planning to open up lines of sight from Chamberlain Square right through to Centenary Square, I reckon it'll make a gigantic difference, and improvement to, the city centre.
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You make the wholesale markets sound like some great undiscovered architectural gem that we're at risk of losing...
Come now, Paulie, you're making stuff up again. I'm talking about the importance of having the wholesale market in a central location. It works. It's good for the retail markets and local restaurants. Move it half a mile across the city, to a new purpose-built site? That's fine. But that's not what they're planning to do, is it?
As I said before, there's plenty of prime space for offices in the city if we really need them. My opinion is that Chamberlain Square / Paradise Circus should be for civic and public buildings that everyone can use and enjoy, and which attract people to the area.
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You make the wholesale markets sound like some great undiscovered architectural gem that we're at risk of losing...
Come now, Paulie, you're making stuff up again. I'm talking about the importance of having the wholesale market in a central location. It works. It's good for the retail markets and local restaurants. Move it half a mile across the city, to a new purpose-built site? That's fine. But that's not what they're planning to do, is it?
But you're talking about creating a food culture with cafes etc etc around the wholesale market. Do you honestly think anyone is going to want to go there and sit around that 70s monstrosity as lorries and vans come and go?
It doesn't need to be in the city centre, it just needs to be near to it. To listen to your argument, it's as if that's the only place it can be.
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Incidentally, I just read that, prior to the move to Witton breaking down, they polled traders at the markets, and of 68 asked, 55 were in support of the move.
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The wholesale market isn't just catering for the city of Birmingham it's for all Birmingham and the surrounding areas. It makes sense to have it at a more logistical location, ie. just off a motorway exit.
I see no pros for keeping it in the city center and plenty of cons for getting it out of there.
Anyway, save the King Edward first.
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Re: the library I'm with paulie. The market, I'm not sure. You both make some excellent points but I can't say aye or neigh while the plans seem to be on hold anyway. Still, it's a well-reasoned and informative debate on both sides - well done.
And all stemming from a thread on a defunct boozer where I didn't visit more than half-a-dozen times, more for the old Mod nights than on match days. My fondest memory of the place was when some bully chinned an Arsenal fan after the Yorke chipped penalty game, and in the process knocked over a couple of near-empty glasses on my table. I asked him to replace mine and my missus' drinks and he agreed. 'What were they?' he asked. 'Two double vodka and Red Bulls' I lied.
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You make the wholesale markets sound like some great undiscovered architectural gem that we're at risk of losing...
Come now, Paulie, you're making stuff up again. I'm talking about the importance of having the wholesale market in a central location. It works. It's good for the retail markets and local restaurants. Move it half a mile across the city, to a new purpose-built site? That's fine. But that's not what they're planning to do, is it?
But you're talking about creating a food culture with cafes etc etc around the wholesale market. Do you honestly think anyone is going to want to go there and sit around that 70s monstrosity as lorries and vans come and go?
It doesn't need to be in the city centre, it just needs to be near to it. To listen to your argument, it's as if that's the only place it can be.
It depends how they redevelop it. A similar thing happens at Borough Market in London. Tsukiji fish market in Tokyo is far from aesthetically pleasing, and has lorries and fork-lifts darting all over the place, but it has stalls and small outlets selling food.
I think the markets should be centrally located, yes. And I think they should be improved. So far, the council haven't come up with a viable suggestion for relocation. They just want to sell the current site for redevelopment.
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You make the wholesale markets sound like some great undiscovered architectural gem that we're at risk of losing...
Come now, Paulie, you're making stuff up again. I'm talking about the importance of having the wholesale market in a central location. It works. It's good for the retail markets and local restaurants. Move it half a mile across the city, to a new purpose-built site? That's fine. But that's not what they're planning to do, is it?
But you're talking about creating a food culture with cafes etc etc around the wholesale market. Do you honestly think anyone is going to want to go there and sit around that 70s monstrosity as lorries and vans come and go?
It doesn't need to be in the city centre, it just needs to be near to it. To listen to your argument, it's as if that's the only place it can be.
It depends how they redevelop it. A similar thing happens at Borough Market in London. Tsukiji fish market in Tokyo is far from aesthetically pleasing, and has lorries and fork-lifts darting all over the place, but it has stalls and small outlets selling food.
I think the markets should be centrally located, yes. And I think they should be improved. So far, the council haven't come up with a viable suggestion for relocation. They just want to sell the current site for redevelopment.
They suggested Witton, which was one the traders accepted.
I honestly don't see how Tokyo and London wholesale markets really show much relevance to what can be done with the Birmingham one. Those two are global cities and global cities have far more options than cities like Brum do.
Of course they want to sell the site for redevelopment, it is in a prime central location. Does the wholesale market need to be there? No. Should it be miles and miles outside the city centre? No. Has anyone suggested it should be? No.
Incidentally, the wholesale market is already surrounded by restaurants - the bull ring bit on one side, and china town / the arcadian at the back. Why hasn't it already taken off as a food location if it's such a viable idea?
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I don't think for one minute that any Independent Restaurant uses the wholesale market for produce. It's function is for retail only. Why would Purnell need a crate of lettuce? He's always in Asda at Minworth in any case.
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I just can't see where the demand is going to come from for cafes and small food outlets at that end of Hurst Street? You need to attract the office workers to make it viable during the day and it's just too far out for most.
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You make the wholesale markets sound like some great undiscovered architectural gem that we're at risk of losing...
Come now, Paulie, you're making stuff up again. I'm talking about the importance of having the wholesale market in a central location. It works. It's good for the retail markets and local restaurants. Move it half a mile across the city, to a new purpose-built site? That's fine. But that's not what they're planning to do, is it?
But you're talking about creating a food culture with cafes etc etc around the wholesale market. Do you honestly think anyone is going to want to go there and sit around that 70s monstrosity as lorries and vans come and go?
It doesn't need to be in the city centre, it just needs to be near to it. To listen to your argument, it's as if that's the only place it can be.
It depends how they redevelop it. A similar thing happens at Borough Market in London. Tsukiji fish market in Tokyo is far from aesthetically pleasing, and has lorries and fork-lifts darting all over the place, but it has stalls and small outlets selling food.
I think the markets should be centrally located, yes. And I think they should be improved. So far, the council haven't come up with a viable suggestion for relocation. They just want to sell the current site for redevelopment.
They suggested Witton, which was one the traders accepted.
I honestly don't see how Tokyo and London wholesale markets really show much relevance to what can be done with the Birmingham one. Those two are global cities and global cities have far more options than cities like Brum do.
Of course they want to sell the site for redevelopment, it is in a prime central location. Does the wholesale market need to be there? No. Should it be miles and miles outside the city centre? No. Has anyone suggested it should be? No.
Incidentally, the wholesale market is already surrounded by restaurants - the bull ring bit on one side, and china town / the arcadian at the back. Why hasn't it already taken off as a food location if it's such a viable idea?
They suggested Witton, which now isn't going to happen. So, where next?
There's every reason why Birmingham should look to London and Tokyo's models for inspiration. With a little bit of imagination and vision, the wholesale market could be improved in a similar way. Perhaps not on the same scale, but certainly using a similar model. I'm not the only one who thinks so:
http://ourbirmingham.org/?p=1390
The Bullring restaurants and Chinese quarter restaurants may be nearby, but they are contained within their own areas. When the council announced plans for the new Spiceal Street, I foolishly imagined high-quality street food traders like the ones in Borough Market. Something exciting, with great food and a buzzing atmosphere that would reflect the original Spiceal Street of yore. Instead we got chain restaurants. I suppose at least they can afford the rent.
We could conceivably regenerate the wholesale market area so that the Borough Market-style traders come from around the region to sell their wares here. Create something that will attract people, including tourists, to an area with a thriving wholesale market at the centre. Build on Birmingham's burgeoning reputation for great food.
Or we could perhaps relocate the market to an industrial unit and build hotels / shops that look like they might be in any city in England.
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They suggested Witton, which now isn't going to happen. So, where next?
I don't know, but they've said nothing is going to happen for between three and five years in any case. I'm sure they'll manage to find somewhere in that timeframe.
There's every reason why Birmingham should look to London and Tokyo's models for inspiration. With a little bit of imagination and vision, the wholesale market could be improved in a similar way. Perhaps not on the same scale, but certainly using a similar model. I'm not the only one who thinks so:
http://ourbirmingham.org/?p=1390
That's a link to a speech given about Borough Market. It might be feasible for London, but that's a totally different kettle of fish.
The Bullring restaurants and Chinese quarter restaurants may be nearby, but they are contained within their own areas. When the council announced plans for the new Spiceal Street, I foolishly imagined high-quality street food traders like the ones in Borough Market. Something exciting, with great food and a buzzing atmosphere that would reflect the original Spiceal Street of yore. Instead we got chain restaurants. I suppose at least they can afford the rent.
We could conceivably regenerate the wholesale market area so that the Borough Market-style traders come from around the region to sell their wares here. Create something that will attract people, including tourists, to an area with a thriving wholesale market at the centre. Build on Birmingham's burgeoning reputation for great food.
Or we could perhaps relocate the market to an industrial unit and build hotels / shops that look like they might be in any city in England.
Yes, but that's the point isn't it - that's all they need to be, they're there to shift large quantities of food to trade customers. They're not a place where the man on the street goes to buy fresh food for lunch, and I'm afraid they never will be.
They're never going to be like Borough Market or the one in Tokyo because London and Tokyo have the tens of millions of residents and tourists to make those things feasible. Birmingham does not. They are such different cases, you can't even begin to compare them.
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Perhaps we should get the big projects done first, then maybe if that generates the necessary increase in vistors, more imaginitave retail will follow on the back of that.
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Birmingham city centre has a farmers market; possibly the smallest I know of because there's no call for it. That shows me a Borough-type idea would fail.
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They suggested Witton, which now isn't going to happen. So, where next?
I don't know, but they've said nothing is going to happen for between three and five years in any case. I'm sure they'll manage to find somewhere in that timeframe.
There's every reason why Birmingham should look to London and Tokyo's models for inspiration. With a little bit of imagination and vision, the wholesale market could be improved in a similar way. Perhaps not on the same scale, but certainly using a similar model. I'm not the only one who thinks so:
http://ourbirmingham.org/?p=1390
That's a link to a speech given about Borough Market. It might be feasible for London, but that's a totally different kettle of fish.
The Bullring restaurants and Chinese quarter restaurants may be nearby, but they are contained within their own areas. When the council announced plans for the new Spiceal Street, I foolishly imagined high-quality street food traders like the ones in Borough Market. Something exciting, with great food and a buzzing atmosphere that would reflect the original Spiceal Street of yore. Instead we got chain restaurants. I suppose at least they can afford the rent.
We could conceivably regenerate the wholesale market area so that the Borough Market-style traders come from around the region to sell their wares here. Create something that will attract people, including tourists, to an area with a thriving wholesale market at the centre. Build on Birmingham's burgeoning reputation for great food.
Or we could perhaps relocate the market to an industrial unit and build hotels / shops that look like they might be in any city in England.
Yes, but that's the point isn't it - that's all they need to be, they're there to shift large quantities of food to trade customers. They're not a place where the man on the street goes to buy fresh food for lunch, and I'm afraid they never will be.
They're never going to be like Borough Market or the one in Tokyo because London and Tokyo have the tens of millions of residents and tourists to make those things feasible. Birmingham does not. They are such different cases, you can't even begin to compare them.
Well, let's see what they plan to do about the proposed relocation.
I'm not trying to compare Birmingham to London or Tokyo. I'm saying that we could learn a thing or two from them.
The link refers to a speech in which Borough Market is upheld as an example to other markets / cities.
Is this one really too small and parochial to have a thriving food quarter based around a working wholesale market? Maybe, maybe not. But I look at some of the huge blunders the council has made in the past. I look at proposals to demolish such buildings as the King Edward. And I wonder if the council is really examining all the options before plunging ahead with schemes that will bring in the most money.
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Perhaps we should get the big projects done first, then maybe if that generates the necessary increase in vistors, more imaginitave retail will follow on the back of that.
Good point.
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Is this one really too small and parochial to have a thriving food quarter based around a working wholesale market? Maybe, maybe not. But I look at some of the huge blunders the council has made in the past. I look at proposals to demolish such buildings as the King Edward. And I wonder if the council is really examining all the options before plunging ahead with schemes that will bring in the most money.
To suggest that the council's main aim is to fill their own coffers seems a little bit extreme.
Ultimately, the council's main job is to create wealth and prosperity for the city and the people who live in it. That's not a charter to demolish everything, but that's their job.
If there's an argument that the KE has some kind of architectural merit, then that has to be balanced against the prosperity that industry or business could create in that location.
I guess that is subjective too. To one of us who likes to go for a pint there pre or post match, we'd value the retention of the pub much higher than, say, a muslim family who live nearby, who never use the pub, and who have unemployed children who'd love there to be jobs created in their area.
I'd also suggest that the council negotiating with the owner of the KE to move his business to the old Aston Tavern suggest that they're making efforts to please as many people as they can rather than it being all about the money.
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What bothers me about this is that the land is required for highway improvements. i totally understand the aspiration of BCC to deliver regeneration and employment but i can't help thinking of many of the recent highway improvement schemes in the city which i think have been over engineered/unnecessary- moor street, selly oar/QE, northfield, longbridge.
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Perhaps we should get the big projects done first, then maybe if that generates the necessary increase in vistors, more imaginitave retail will follow on the back of that.
Good point.
Double good point.
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Going back to the original point, what right have we, who visit the area 15-20 times a year, for maybe three hours at a time and in general provide very little in the way of direct investment, to influence development in what is a much more deprived area than virtually all of us live in?
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Going back to the original point, what right have we, who visit the area 15-20 times a year, for maybe three hours at a time and in general provide very little in the way of direct investment, to influence development in what is a much more deprived area than virtually all of us live in?
If these pubs are not financially viable then so be it but I would just like the buildings to be retained and re-used in some way. I believe that beautiful buildings enhance our lives even if we only ever drive or walk past them, that was my beef with Island House. I'm aware that there is a cost issue with old buildings but if they can be saved, or at least not totally destroyed, it would benefit us all.
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Any hope that the King Edward could be restored and used as the often mooted AVFC museum? I agree with Nev that preserving some of the Victorian/ Edwardian architecture adds to an environment rather than diminishing it.
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Any hope that the King Edward could be restored and used as the often mooted AVFC museum? I agree with Nev that preserving some of the Victorian/ Edwardian architecture adds to an environment rather than diminishing it.
The Holte Hotel should be used for that.Its not being used as a pub.
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Going back to the original point, what right have we, who visit the area 15-20 times a year, for maybe three hours at a time and in general provide very little in the way of direct investment, to influence development in what is a much more deprived area than virtually all of us live in?
If these pubs are not financially viable then so be it but I would just like the buildings to be retained and re-used in some way. I believe that beautiful buildings enhance our lives even if we only ever drive or walk past them, that was my beef with Island House. I'm aware that there is a cost issue with old buildings but if they can be saved, or at least not totally destroyed, it would benefit us all.
I'm not sure how authentic the building now is, nor how unique it might be. There are many pubs of that vintage in the city and it might be that somewhere like the Vine has more architectural merit based on being unaltered and rarer.
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The Vine- best remembered by me for the eye catching luminous pieces of card dotted around the bar announcing the following:-
NO DRUGS ON PREMISES - CHEESE ROLLS AVAILABLE WITH SALAD.
It is that kind on incisive marketing that makes the British pub the envy of the world.
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The Vine- best remembered by me for the eye catching luminous pieces of card dotted around the bar announcing the following:-
NO DRUGS ON PREMISES - CHEESE ROLLS AVAILABLE WITH SALAD.
It is that kind on incisive marketing that makes the British pub the envy of the world.
I used to work next to the vine,free pool table if you knew what you were doing.
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The Vine used to have the fastest table football table around. I think they had covered the playing surface with formica.
No matter when you went in, the same bloke was there waiting, with his coin on the table. Fucking shark!