Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Hookeysmith on November 22, 2011, 12:57:58 PM
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I do not want us to be Birmingham City anymore. I cannot stand opposing fans taking the piss out of how we play "ole's" and "hoofs" are becoming all too familiar.
Fans are staying away in their droves and ambition we had is being eroded on and off the pitch and all of this was soooooo predictable
I really Like AM as a person - he is courtious and polite with fans and has an obvious understanding of the game but his mentality is set in stone and whilst it may have been seen as doing the best he could with what he had at the rags it is just not acceptable with our club - just not acceptable at any level.
If we were the rags then we would have no hopes or ambitions other than survival - something we have derided them over for many years.
I appreciate that Randy and the purse string tightening has not helped but even so man for man we have a better team /squad of players than he had when he was at the Blues yet we are playing exactly the same way - plan to hold them and if we are lucky catch them on the break and pinch a goal - this is shit and not our way
I have tried to give him time - i even hoped that he would prove all the doubters wrong but i have to admit last night was the final straw. As many have said its not the defeat but the way we planned for defeat before we had started with the team selection
The fact that he acts tough yet we all know it will be the same old faces in the team for Sunday - if he had the balls he would drop half of them just on principle alone - if we lost with kids then at least he looked like he tried to change it - but i doubt he has the nous or the bottle to do it
I do not want my team to be a laughing stock
We had some pretty awful results with DOL / MON and GH but they were the exception
Continue to be a mirror image of the dog shit and these results will become more and more the norm and look where it got them - relegated twice wonder who their manager was?
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After Bent came we looked useful under GH, and there was a clear culture change happening at the club. It is bewildering that McLeish was then appointed by the people so keen for that culture change to happen, as it takes us 10 steps back, and last night showed why. Width offered by Heskey and Hutton who continuously lost the ball, and no central midfield, with defenders that have all failed to perform for us. The manager is a yes man for the board to reduce the wages and do as he is told.
If we are not in the bottom 3 by mid Jan I would be amazed. Totally and utterly depressing, and appears to be completely rudderless from the top.
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His perseverance of the new play-maker role for Heskey is the most bizarre thing that I have seen in years. Whilst he was sometimes played for England on the left side of the forward line, it was never as provider, but as an out-ball and to gate-crash the box with late forays.
With a team with a natural goal poacher in, it's criminal that we are not trying to play players with some modicum of passing ability in those forward areas.
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3 strikers, 5 defenders, 1 midfield player who has played left back and the midfielder and captain who has played the holding role for the last 3 years.
Great team selection.
There is a pub in aston called the adventurers. Doubt Mcleish has ever heard of it.
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Sadly it is SO hard to disagree with the comments above and I can usually find positives in the most dire situations.
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After Bent came we looked useful under GH, and there was a clear culture change happening at the club. It is bewildering that McLeish was then appointed by the people so keen for that culture change to happen, as it takes us 10 steps back, and last night showed why. Width offered by Heskey and Hutton who continuously lost the ball, and no central midfield, with defenders that have all failed to perform for us. The manager is a yes man for the board to reduce the wages and do as he is told.
If we are not in the bottom 3 by mid Jan I would be amazed. Totally and utterly depressing, and appears to be completely rudderless from the top.
I think we looked quite tasty towards the end of last season. The problem is, we sold Downing and Young and replaced them with what? Heskey and Hutton!!! That is a formula for relegation.
After RL stated he has the club at heart, with those two in those positions, I'd hate to see what the team would look like if he hated us.
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The sad fact is that the board/RL will NOT sack Eck as they wanted him. We are stuck with him. Even if we all chant "mcleish out" every game, they will not listen. They didn't listen to the fans that were there outside VP protesting against his proposed appointment nor did they take real notice of the message boards or the radio phone ins.
They wanted a Yes man and they got him. Why Heskey starts every game is beyond me, especially playing on the left???? WTF? What does he offer apart from work rate.
There are not many GH fans but I was one of them. I'm pretty sure if he was still in charge, things would have been better. He would have got rid of the rubbish in our squad and replaced them with a mixture of cheap foreign talent (just like Wenger does) and our youth players. Players like Clark, Bannan and Albrighton would have developed so much better under his guidance. Look at the likes of Steve Gerrard, Michael Owen and Jamie Carragher. they all praise GH for what he done at LFC. After the signing of Bent, we started to look and play better football and thats something he would have continued to address over the summer in preparation for this season. With Eck in charge, we have gone backwards and do not look like every taking the forward steps needed to challenge for a top 6 position.
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Also, wheres the General gone?? Did he say something along the lines of "just imagine what Eck could do with the backing of his owner". Well im sorry, I havent really seen much backing at all. Well, not enough to challenege for top 6
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After the signing of Bent, we started to look and play better football and thats something he would have continued to address over the summer in preparation for this season. With Eck in charge, we have gone backwards and do not look like every taking the forward steps needed to challenge for a top 6 position.
We all sadly know that Bent will not be with the club this time next season. Unfortunately, the rest of the team will no doubt still be all present and correct (including Heskey with a slightly smaller contract) and with an average striker.
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The sad fact is that the board/RL will NOT sack Eck as they wanted him. We are stuck with him. Even if we all chant "mcleish out" every game, they will not listen. They didn't listen to the fans that were there outside VP protesting against his proposed appointment nor did they take real notice of the message boards or the radio phone ins.
They wanted a Yes man and they got him. Why Heskey starts every game is beyond me, especially playing on the left???? WTF? What does he offer apart from work rate.
There are not many GH fans but I was one of them. I'm pretty sure if he was still in charge, things would have been better. He would have got rid of the rubbish in our squad and replaced them with a mixture of cheap foreign talent (just like Wenger does) and our youth players. Players like Clark, Bannan and Albrighton would have developed so much better under his guidance. Look at the likes of Steve Gerrard, Michael Owen and Jamie Carragher. they all praise GH for what he done at LFC. After the signing of Bent, we started to look and play better football and thats something he would have continued to address over the summer in preparation for this season. With Eck in charge, we have gone backwards and do not look like every taking the forward steps needed to challenge for a top 6 position.
I agree but don't panick just yet, remember in the words of the General "Just think what a manager like AM can achieve with Randys backing!"
Not even funny though really is it :-[
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See, for me, the worrying thing is that McLeish does not know how to play ANY differently, and last season is a prime example.
He was manager of a club that had actually acheived something quite remarkable, for them.
By winning a cup, that particular club was at the absolute pinnacle of their achievements. With this win, and understandably, that club was on a huge, massive high.
But, between the end of February and the end of the season, he still managed to oversee a total eroding of that incredible high, and with 1, 2, 5 or 10 games to go he was still not able to motivate or tactically plan to prevent them being relegated.
To me, that says more about his (lack of) ability than anything else.
If they had struggled all season, and without the cup win, had gone down, then fair enough, shit happens, and Wigan this year will be that team, BUT with 3 months to go, after winning a cup, the first thing the club has ever won, and to STILL take them down, I find that almost criminal, and for me is particularly worrying.
I think we are in for a long bleak winter.
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Also, wheres the General gone?? Did he say something along the lines of "just imagine what Eck could do with the backing of his owner". Well im sorry, I havent really seen much backing at all. Well, not enough to challenege for top 6
Challenge for a top 6? You've got to be kidding.
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The manner of the tactics last night have really destroyed any goodwill towards Mcleish and I was very much prepared to give him a chance. We need strong leadership from the club and they need to remember at its essence the game is about entertainment. What we demonstrated last night was about as far from entertainment as possible.
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His perseverance of the new play-maker role for Heskey is the most bizarre thing that I have seen in years. Whilst he was sometimes played for England on the left side of the forward line, it was never as provider, but as an out-ball and to gate-crash the box with late forays.
With a team with a natural goal poacher in, it's criminal that we are not trying to play players with some modicum of passing ability in those forward areas.
Given the competition for ineptitude on the night, he certainly stood out. Given his experience, his inablity to control or pass to a team mate on the few occasions we got the ball down was nothing short of staggering.
Even the main reason for him being there, to try and flick the ball on was a complete failure.
Such a crude and archaic tactic totally out of step with modern football.
He is symbolic of the embarrassment I feel knowing what the football world would have thought of that crap.
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Houllier had to go imo.
But I honestly didn't think Randy would fcuk up a managerial appointment for the second time in less than a year.
I'd think I'd have rather have had Martinez, the football would've been more entertaining, he'd have probably got N'zogbia playing better and we wouldn't have drawn so many games this season.
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Houllier had to go imo.
But I honestly didn't think Randy would fcuk up a managerial appointment for the second time in less than a year.
I'd think I'd have rather have had Martinez, the football would've been more entertaining, he'd have probably got N'zogbia playing better and we wouldn't have drawn so many games this season.
Without a doubt the football wouldn't be as bad.
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Knowing what we know now about finances etc, and that the top men were never really in the running for the job, I wish we had got Mark Hughes.
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As laudable as it is to bemoan the rapid decline of the club since MON and to despair at the growing gulf between us and Spurs (two comparable clubs only 3 years ago); I get the distinct impression that the club is not only not listening, but they knew exactly what they were doing when McLeish was appointed and our best players were sold. I honestly believe that far from being rudderless and clueless the club in fact know precisely what they are doing and precisely what it means. They have factored in the loss of gate receipts, loss of merchandise and balanced it with the savings in salary to determine that our current position is both tenable and the most risk free course of action for the near future.
As we heard so often under Doug, the club is going to cut its cloth accordingly and focus on producing youth talent in the hope that it will bear fruit. Even if it does not, there will always be enough in the bank for an emergency purchase to maintain our Prem status and in addition there will always be enough fans coming through the gates to ensure we tick over.
Dull as dishwater it may be, devoid of any short term hope it certainly is, but I suspect that its the truth.
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I think we should've moved heaven and earth to get Moyes in, beggars belief apparently we didn't approach him as we didn't want to poach another prem manager and then pay SHA 3m for McLeish.
Hughes would've been a decent 2nd choice, got Warnock and Ireland playing very well previously.
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I echo the thoughts of others, last night left me feeling cold towards all of them really, following us is becoming a chore to say the least
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I echo the thoughts of others, last night left me feeling cold towards all of them really, following us is becoming a chore to say the least
A chore is a good way of describing it. I wasn't looking forward to last nights game, although I never anticapted how disasterous it would be. I'm supporting Villa more out of habit of doing so for 20+ years rather than doing it for the enjoyment at the moment.
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I gave up listening to it at half time, didn't expect much of a fightback.
The manner of last night's game hurt but not the result as Spurs are simply much better than us so expected to lose. It's more Sunday and Bolton away coming up where if we lose/concede the obligatory late away goal to draw that will hurt much more to me as that's the games I expect us to get results in/play well in as the level of the opposition is on a par/below us.
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I echo the thoughts of others, last night left me feeling cold towards all of them really, following us is becoming a chore to say the least
A chore is a good way of describing it. I wasn't looking forward to last nights game, although I never anticapted how disasterous it would be. I'm supporting Villa more out of habit of doing so for 20+ years rather than doing it for the enjoyment at the moment.
You are indeed the perfect example to demonstrate precisely why the club can change its policy and still guarantee an income - Its not in any way a criticism merely a demonstration of the fact that there are more than enough people, like you, who are emotionally invested in the club to allow the board to make such unpopular choices and still not jeopardise the future.
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It hurts me to say this but I wish I had not got a season ticket this year. Yes, you support your club through the good and bad times but I have no enjoyment going there every home game. Not to mention the current financial climate we are under. My money could have been well spent else where.
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I think this is as bad as 2005/06, maybe not in final league position but in terms of enjoying games, unpopular manager etc.
Results wise, this has been similar to MON's first season (06-07) when we drew loads of games but back then with Randy just in you knew things would get back and we would have a go in the league (which we did).
Funnily enough there were simply plenty on here at the time (Coopers injury, remember him?) saying Randy wouldn't spend anything and would be lucky to stay up.
Sadly five years on I can't be as optimistic, we're back to making up the numbers from 8th downards in this league.
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...there will always be enough in the bank for an emergency purchase to maintain our Prem status and in addition there will always be enough fans coming through the gates to ensure we tick over.
Unfortunately the way we're going it'll take a lot more than "an" emergency purchase to maintain our Prem status. It'll take several, and who would want to join us? Bent agreed to come because he looked at the supply line and could see a hatful of goals coming his way. Now that creativity has gone we're lucky to get one shot on target per game, let alone make a string of chances. Even if we had the money and we were desperate, I really can't see two or three quality midfielders or strikers viewing Villa as a promising option. The biggest problem we've got at the moment is not simply the dire football, but the general image of the club. Our decline has been fast and spectacular and everyone can see it. We've made a bizarre managerial appointment, sold our best players, and now we play arguably the worst and most incompetent football in the league. If even our own fans are staying away - which they are - how can we convince the rest of the footballing world that we're not on a slippery slope? I'm not sure there will always be enough fans to keep us ticking over, the way things are going. Even if there were, sooner or later they'll be 30-odd thousand very depressed fans blinking back the tears at a relegation parade. Last night was a very poor advert for the club. We showed the nation what a mess we're in. We urgently need some leadership and some positive intent from the top, or I can see a slump it could take many years to recover from.
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I agree but don't panick just yet, remember in the words of the General "Just think what a manager like AM can achieve with Randys backing!"
Not even funny though really is it :-[
Sounds like panick buying in January to me
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His perseverance of the new play-maker role for Heskey is the most bizarre thing that I have seen in years. Whilst he was sometimes played for England on the left side of the forward line, it was never as provider, but as an out-ball and to gate-crash the box with late forays.
With a team with a natural goal poacher in, it's criminal that we are not trying to play players with some modicum of passing ability in those forward areas.
Indeed.
It is like our team is a spoof documentary at the moment.
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We need to change the "Proud history, bright future" statement to "proud history, mediocre future" or "proud history, shite future"
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Tactically he's very limited and when something goes against his plan he tends to freeze like a rabbit in the headlights just not knowing where to turn or what to do.
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My 14 year old lad summed Villa up. 'We are the new Stoke'.
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As we heard so often under Doug, the club is going to cut its cloth accordingly and focus on producing youth talent in the hope that it will bear fruit. Even if it does not, there will always be enough in the bank for an emergency purchase to maintain our Prem status and in addition there will always be enough fans coming through the gates to ensure we tick over.
Dull as dishwater it may be, devoid of any short term hope it certainly is, but I suspect that its the truth.
Don't post things like this, it makes me want to cry.
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Results wise, this has been similar to MON's first season (06-07) when we drew loads of games but back then with Randy just in you knew things would get back and we would have a go in the league (which we did).
Indeed. And when folk go on about McLeish being like MON without the money, I think back to that first season of MON in charge and remember the fight and urgency the players showed when under the cosh. He could motivate players, lets not forget that, whereas after going in 2-0 down at half time last night, McLeish sent the players out for the second half with their heads down more than ever. He can't motivate, but we should know this already - he can't turn things around when under pressure - two relegations have shown this.
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After Bent came we looked useful under GH, and there was a clear culture change happening at the club. It is bewildering that McLeish was then appointed by the people so keen for that culture change to happen, as it takes us 10 steps back, and last night showed why. Width offered by Heskey and Hutton who continuously lost the ball, and no central midfield, with defenders that have all failed to perform for us. The manager is a yes man for the board to reduce the wages and do as he is told.
If we are not in the bottom 3 by mid Jan I would be amazed. Totally and utterly depressing, and appears to be completely rudderless from the top.
Sad to say that there is nothing to disagree with in your comments-a truly sad state of affairs and it will only worsen in the coming weeks.
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I really hope something changes soon we can't play like we did last night again that's for sure.
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I really hope something changes soon we can't play like we did last night again that's for sure.
I am not a betting man but i would imagine the odds on us being even worse are more favourable than us "clicking" and getting it right
sorry but i just cannot see it - those players do not want to play for him - and i think the negative vibes he sends out is ruining some of our better players.
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My 14 year old lad summed Villa up. 'We are the new Stoke'.
Your son is an optimist - we're not that good.
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After Bent came we looked useful under GH, and there was a clear culture change happening at the club. It is bewildering that McLeish was then appointed by the people so keen for that culture change to happen, as it takes us 10 steps back, and last night showed why. Width offered by Heskey and Hutton who continuously lost the ball, and no central midfield, with defenders that have all failed to perform for us. The manager is a yes man for the board to reduce the wages and do as he is told.
It would be interesting to speculate what would have happened over the summer if we had kept with the GHou Project.
- in addition to the AY / SD / BF departures, we would also have seen Collins, Warnock, Ireland and Dunne go.
- we'd have welcomed Cabaye and another midfielder in and we may have signed Given / possibly Foster.
- we'd probably have had to sign another CB - don;t know who that might have been.
- Clark would probably have become a mainstay CB by now.
- Albrighton would probably have played himself back into some form, and BB would also be a regular.
- Gabby would be languishing or already-departed.
Net, net, I think we'd have a similar quality of player, perhaps with even more reliance on the youngsters than currently. The big difference would have been the attitude and desire of the players (the togetherness) and a tighter gameplay that allowed for both a strong defence and an attacking style. More football being played rather than hoof n' hope.
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After Bent came we looked useful under GH, and there was a clear culture change happening at the club. It is bewildering that McLeish was then appointed by the people so keen for that culture change to happen, as it takes us 10 steps back, and last night showed why. Width offered by Heskey and Hutton who continuously lost the ball, and no central midfield, with defenders that have all failed to perform for us. The manager is a yes man for the board to reduce the wages and do as he is told.
It would be interesting to speculate what would have happened over the summer if we had kept with the GHou Project.
- in addition to the AY / SD / BF departures, we would also have seen Collins, Warnock, Ireland and Dunne go.
- we'd have welcomed Cabaye and another midfielder in and we may have signed Given / possibly Foster.
- we'd probably have had to sign another CB - don;t know who that might have been.
- Clark would probably have become a mainstay CB by now.
- Albrighton would probably have played himself back into some form, and BB would also be a regular.
- Gabby would be languishing or already-departed.
Net, net, I think we'd have a similar quality of player, perhaps with even more reliance on the youngsters than currently. The big difference would have been the attitude and desire of the players (the togetherness) and a tighter gameplay that allowed for both a strong defence and an attacking style. More football being played rather than hoof n' hope.
Although those changes might have been the intention/desire of Houllier, he's surely have had the same financial restraints AM had to work under? So given the high wages, some of the departures you mention may not have happened, meaning the incomings would not have either.
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The thing is, as soon as the owners knew the extent of Houllier's desire to rebuild and how much it would cost them he was never going to be able to stay.
Moving on, one of the great disappointments of this season has been the lack of chances given to our young players, something the club keep on telling us is an important part of their vision. Well aside from Bannan pre-drink driving incident and Herd none of them have been given a shot. Albrighton and Clark have fallen well down the pecking order, Weimann and Delfouneso have barely got a game, Hogg sold off cheaply, Baker loaned out and we're yet to see the supposedly super-talented Gardner play for the first team. It would not be as hurtful if the players getting a game were good but they are not.
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The thing is, as soon as the owners knew the extent of Houllier's desire to rebuild and how much it would cost them he was never going to be able to stay.
Moving on, one of the great disappointments of this season has been the lack of chances given to our young players, something the club keep on telling us is an important part of their vision. Well aside from Bannan pre-drink driving incident and Herd none of them have been given a shot. Albrighton and Clark have fallen well down the pecking order, Weimann and Delfouneso have barely got a game, Hogg sold off cheaply, Baker loaned out and we're yet to see the supposedly super-talented Gardner play for the first team. It would not be as hurtful if the players getting a game were good but they are not.
excellent point well made - especially the last line - what can we really lose by playing them and letting them express themselves
I would never thought i would say this but i would even accept relegation if it meant a team of
Bannan
Albrighton
Fonz
Clark
Herd
Weinmann
Baker
Gardener
Johnson
Grealish
Lichaj
were given a decent chance - actually the more i think about it i would really love to see that team evn if it was in the chanpionship and allowed to gel
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My 14 year old lad summed Villa up. 'We are the new Stoke'.
Rubbish , we are not that good!
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My 14 year old lad summed Villa up. 'We are the new Stoke'.
Your son is an optimist - we're not that good.
Stoke always demonstrate passion, even if they're horrible to watch and performing badly.
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Maybe we should write to SAF and hope he can send a message to Lerner.
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I still feel so dejected after last night. The club's in such a bad place and it seems there is no easy way out. We need to arrest the slide and start building again.
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My 14 year old lad summed Villa up. 'We are the new Stoke'.
14 was the age started I messing about with hallucinogenics too.
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Just been driving home , my mate had TS on . The amount of people saying that is the worse Villa side they have ever seen . thank you Randy
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The thing is, as soon as the owners knew the extent of Houllier's desire to rebuild and how much it would cost them he was never going to be able to stay.
Moving on, one of the great disappointments of this season has been the lack of chances given to our young players, something the club keep on telling us is an important part of their vision. Well aside from Bannan pre-drink driving incident and Herd none of them have been given a shot. Albrighton and Clark have fallen well down the pecking order, Weimann and Delfouneso have barely got a game, Hogg sold off cheaply, Baker loaned out and we're yet to see the supposedly super-talented Gardner play for the first team. It would not be as hurtful if the players getting a game were good but they are not.
excellent point well made - especially the last line - what can we really lose by playing them and letting them express themselves
I would never thought i would say this but i would even accept relegation if it meant a team of
Bannan
Albrighton
Fonz
Clark
Herd
Weinmann
Baker
Gardener
Johnson
Grealish
Lichaj
were given a decent chance - actually the more i think about it i would really love to see that team evn if it was in the chanpionship and allowed to gel
Play that team and you'd get your wish because we would be relegated.
Our kids aren't as good as the hype continues to tell us.
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Gardner is that good and should get a go
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It comes from the top down. I'm astonished at Randy Lerner's complete about turn in stewardship, to be honest. From being the model of how to run a club he has become the very model of how not to run a club, in my view. (I'm wondering if Doug gave him some words of advice about how to run Villa on a budget and he has taken it up.)
The whole lack of ambition last night was galling and it has genuinely got to me today. There's no excuses - it was embarrassing. It genuinely beggars belief. You look at some of the characters and winners that have represented the club over the years, you think about the fans that have flocked to the club over the years and that "performance" from the team yesterday was absolutely not on.
The thing is, I don't necessarily blame the players for it. I blame Mr. Lerner. He has set the whole tone for the club now. His managerial appointment, his habit of communicating once a year with supporters, the official website with its turgid "fab" this and "fab" that. There is absolutely no dynamism or energy at the club - no impetus to compete or be the best. The only shining light is, of course, our youth set-up...but how long will it be until the rot sets in there, too?
The manager referring to the clubs above us as "superclubs" and our own official website trumpeting "Man Utd, Liverpool and Arsenal" fixtures as if were a non-league outfit with some plum ties against giants coming up is a slap in the face, too. These are clubs we can more than compete with with ambition and investment. When our own official channels are telling us we are not part of the "elite" I hear alarm bells ringing and I'm brought right back to the mid-eighties, Billy McNeill and Graham Turner. This is not how to run Birmingham's major club, surely?
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I'm more worried about Albrighton than anything else, he's completely killing his career.
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My 14 year old lad summed Villa up. 'We are the new Stoke'.
My 14 year old lad summed Villa up. 'We are the new Stoke'.
Your son is an optimist - we're not that good.
I watched us last night and simply thought: "Birmingham City".
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My 14 year old lad summed Villa up. 'We are the new Stoke'.
My 14 year old lad summed Villa up. 'We are the new Stoke'.
Your son is an optimist - we're not that good.
I watched us last night and simply thought: "Birmingham City".
Yes. That's precisely how Blues would have played that fixture.
In fact, it's precisely how Blues did play that fixture on the last day of the season last year, despite their survival depending on it.
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The thing is, as soon as the owners knew the extent of Houllier's desire to rebuild and how much it would cost them he was never going to be able to stay.
Moving on, one of the great disappointments of this season has been the lack of chances given to our young players, something the club keep on telling us is an important part of their vision. Well aside from Bannan pre-drink driving incident and Herd none of them have been given a shot. Albrighton and Clark have fallen well down the pecking order, Weimann and Delfouneso have barely got a game, Hogg sold off cheaply, Baker loaned out and we're yet to see the supposedly super-talented Gardner play for the first team. It would not be as hurtful if the players getting a game were good but they are not.
excellent point well made - especially the last line - what can we really lose by playing them and letting them express themselves
I would never thought i would say this but i would even accept relegation if it meant a team of
Bannan
Albrighton
Fonz
Clark
Herd
Weinmann
Baker
Gardener
Johnson
Grealish
Lichaj
were given a decent chance - actually the more i think about it i would really love to see that team evn if it was in the chanpionship and allowed to gel
Play that team and you'd get your wish because we would be relegated.
Our kids aren't as good as the hype continues to tell us.
We nearly got relegated with our bunch of senior players last season. If last night is a portent of what is to come this season I am not sure how will they will cope having lost their two most talented team mates.
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RL underwent a personality change at some point during the past 18 months. I'm all for running a club properly and not letting spending get out of hand (as we probably did for a couple of years) but the pendulum has swung so far the other way that we will lose on gate receipts, merhcandise, financial rewards of cup runs and a high leage placing/European qualification.
When you cut back as much as we are you are making your business model very unattractive.
As for his managerial appointments, the less said the better. McLeish is the fall guy for Faulkner and RL's glaring inability to run a big football club.
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We were playing some good stuff towards the end of last season, we then lost Young and Downing.
We've replaced them with N'Zogbia and Gabby.
It's an absolute disgrace that he can say afyer the game that players need to play and cherish their careers and not be afraid..
How the fuck can he say don't be afraid, when his very team selection was a big neon light saying 'IM AFRAID'.
I want my club back, I can honestly say I'd rather be relegated, play decent football in front of a decent crowd, rather than watch this clown's negative football in front of sub 30k crowds(which is where we are headed).
So Randy use your business brain and realise that you've gone to far with the cut backs and they are becoming counter productive and will be more costly in the long run.
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Didn't Faulkner mention something about trying to implement an Ajax style approach last year? Hence Houllier and more of an emphasis on technical ability, training and intergrating the successful youth sides.
Houllier goes -and he had to go- and we opt for McLeish. Where is the continuity, the strategy? RL talks about being impressed with Big Ecks passion for the game, how engaging he is and how he buys into the importance of making the most of our youth team. I can well believe McLeish is engaging. I can well believe McLeish also told him what he wanted to hear. But a quick glance at the clubs he's managed previously doesn't mark him out as a boss who likes to give youth (or flair) it's chance.
Some of the best football we played this season was the second half against QPR, with slick interchanging from Bannan and Ireland. Yet we seem to have jettisoned that in favour of dire, safety first football- the type we all feared when the appointment was made.
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Didn't Faulkner mention something about trying to implement an Ajax style approach last year? Hence Houllier and more of an emphasis on technical ability, training and intergrating the successful youth sides.
The Ajax approach is admirable, but there's a big difference in that Ajax are the biggest club in their league and therefore less vulnerable to other clubs coming in and swiping their talented kids away. They can also offer Champions League football on a constant basis.
They also operate in a country where the average footballer is far more well-rounded and likely to see the benefit of the long term game.
We, on the other hand, have clubs currently bigger than us - quite a few of them - and will find it infinitely harder to maintain the kind of longevity that an Ajax approach absolutely must have it is to have any hope of succeeding.
I'm afraid for us the "Ajax approach" is not going to be anything like as easy to pull off.
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It's better than the Birmingham City approach though, isn't it?
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Houllier goes -and he had to go- and we opt for McLeish. Where is the continuity, the strategy? RL talks about being impressed with Big Ecks passion for the game, how engaging he is and how he buys into the importance of making the most of our youth team. I can well believe McLeish is engaging. I can well believe McLeish also told him what he wanted to hear. But a quick glance at the clubs he's managed previously doesn't mark him out as a boss who likes to give youth (or flair) it's chance.
The fact that they were interested in Martinez also speaks volumes about the lack of direction. I'm not buying the lie about McLeish being identified early on as the sort of manager Lerner had set his stall out for, when Martinez, a completely different sort of manager altogether, would almost certainly have been our manager if he'd decided to speak to us. Or before that, if Benitez had said that he'd be content with little money to spend, he'd have probably been offered the job as well.
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Great post and exactly how I feel.
I have a season ticket this season, my 25th consecutive year, but it shall be my last.
There is a cancer in our club and we are sleepwalking into oblivion and it's a long way back.
I have seen it before many times and it's happening again.
Football is crap, no ambition, lack of leadership, players don't seem to care, it is like groundhog day, in short we are going absolutely nowhere.
I don't know what the answer is but I know I have lost it thgis season is the final straw for me, it killed me financially to buy two season tickets this season and we have to accept that, and the white flag.
No thanks.
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Houllier goes -and he had to go- and we opt for McLeish. Where is the continuity, the strategy? RL talks about being impressed with Big Ecks passion for the game, how engaging he is and how he buys into the importance of making the most of our youth team. I can well believe McLeish is engaging. I can well believe McLeish also told him what he wanted to hear. But a quick glance at the clubs he's managed previously doesn't mark him out as a boss who likes to give youth (or flair) it's chance.
The fact that they were interested in Martinez also speaks volumes about the lack of direction. I'm not buying the lie about McLeish being identified early on as the sort of manager Lerner had set his stall out for, when Martinez, a completely different sort of manager altogether, would almost certainly have been our manager if he'd decided to speak to us. Or before that, if Benitez had said that he'd be content with little money to spend, he'd have probably been offered the job as well.
I don't believe it for a moment, but the very thought that early on in their candidate seeking process they identified McLeish as the number one is possibly the most terrifying indicator of cluelessness I've heard yet.
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Houllier goes -and he had to go- and we opt for McLeish. Where is the continuity, the strategy? RL talks about being impressed with Big Ecks passion for the game, how engaging he is and how he buys into the importance of making the most of our youth team. I can well believe McLeish is engaging. I can well believe McLeish also told him what he wanted to hear. But a quick glance at the clubs he's managed previously doesn't mark him out as a boss who likes to give youth (or flair) it's chance.
The fact that they were interested in Martinez also speaks volumes about the lack of direction. I'm not buying the lie about McLeish being identified early on as the sort of manager Lerner had set his stall out for, when Martinez, a completely different sort of manager altogether, would almost certainly have been our manager if he'd decided to speak to us. Or before that, if Benitez had said that he'd be content with little money to spend, he'd have probably been offered the job as well.
I don't believe it for a moment, but the very thought that early on in their candidate seeking process they identified McLeish as the number one is possibly the most terrifying indicator of cluelessness I've heard yet.
it is enough to make you think Randy has grown to dislike the fans and this is his punishment!
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I don't swallow it either.
I think it was you Paulie that made the point that if he had been a promising up and coming manager, highly coveted and just so happened to be at the B-lose, that wouldn't have put most of the fanbase off. Afterall, quite a few were keen on Foster and Dann.
If anything, it would have made it even sweeter.
But brilliant interview aside (and it must have been) I don't see how anything in his background to date marked him out as being an adequate candidate.
That whole process (and the one that led to the GH appointment) was farcical though. In the latter, we seemed to be treating the job like a vacancy for McJobs- interviewing non-entities such as Curbishley and other oddballs. In the former, we asked for permission to speak to Martinez. Very noble, but it might have been worthwhile to ascertain (through intermediaries/ third parties or whatever) that Martinez might actually want the job in the first place.
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I personally feel that there's been a bit of an over-reaction from a few on here today. Understandably i might add and there's a lot of truth that's been spoken, but a bit of an over-reaction in some quarters all the same.
Last night was our third league defeat, the others being against an outstanding Man City side and unfortunatley a derby, a game we were doing ok in until Phil Dowd intervened.
Last night was McCleish's first real big howler since taking over (although Bolton was'nt pretty). He got it horribly wrong and we've got to hope he realises how wrong he got it.
I think we should get to the end of the year and look at it then, that's fair i think but he's not going to get away with many more team selections and perfomances like that.
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I personally feel that there's been a bit of an over-reaction from a few on here today. Understandably i might add and there's a lot of truth that's been spoken, but a bit of an over-reaction in some quarters all the same.
Last night was our third league defeat, the others being against an outstanding Man City side and unfortunatley a derby, a game we were doing ok in until Phil Dowd intervened.
Last night was McCleish's first real big howler since taking over (although Bolton was'nt pretty). He got it horribly wrong and we've got to hope he realises how wrong he got it.
I think we should get to the end of the year and look at it then, that's fair i think but he's not going to get away with many more team selections and perfomances like that.
I'd agree with most of that. Knee-jerk to want him sacked but there is doubt there about AM that wasn't there previously to last nights game for me. I worry that he seemed to freeze a bit. The line up was obviously wrong after about 5 minutes and it took him another hour to change it - the fact he sent the same side out is bizarre.
I don't care to see Heskey or Hutton in our midfield again. Neither do I think Collins should start again for a while. If he plays any of them in these positions again he's mental.
As for those wanting their club back, last night was as dire a performance as I can remember but howe are we any less connected to the club than we were yesterday? I guess it just felt like the last straw for some, such was the humiliation of the gap in quality (and it was 'only' Spurs).
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Houllier goes -and he had to go- and we opt for McLeish. Where is the continuity, the strategy? RL talks about being impressed with Big Ecks passion for the game, how engaging he is and how he buys into the importance of making the most of our youth team. I can well believe McLeish is engaging. I can well believe McLeish also told him what he wanted to hear. But a quick glance at the clubs he's managed previously doesn't mark him out as a boss who likes to give youth (or flair) it's chance.
The fact that they were interested in Martinez also speaks volumes about the lack of direction. I'm not buying the lie about McLeish being identified early on as the sort of manager Lerner had set his stall out for, when Martinez, a completely different sort of manager altogether, would almost certainly have been our manager if he'd decided to speak to us. Or before that, if Benitez had said that he'd be content with little money to spend, he'd have probably been offered the job as well.
I could see the continuity of bringing in Martinez, he tries to get his teams playing a passing game, something Houllier tried to introduce. It's pretty basic stuff but something we've failed to do for years. But how we got from Martinez to McLeish I'll never know. It was a step back to MON style, something I thought the board realised we had to move on from. Pointless, especially when there was no money to throw around.
This season should have been about introducing the kids, not that they're kids anymore and I can't see the likes of Bannan, Delph, Clark and Albrighton hanging around in the summer if they haven't been given a chance. The ironic point is these players already know how to play decent football, they're tailor made for our objectives.
For me the biggest mistake the board made apart from not getting the right type of manager, was to allow him to bring his own team in. I'd be far happier to see Kevin MacDonald sitting alongside McLeish that his mate Peter Grant. Add to that Sid working on the coaching, we could have made a 'Villa man' out of McLeish. He appears to have the man-management skills but by bringing his baggage with him from the Sty, he's never going to get the tactical side right.
Whilst I think it's unfair to judge McLeish purely on what he did at the Sty, he had very limited resources and his objective was mainly to keep them up, I would have hoped that we would be a little bit more ambitious with our objectives. My concern today is that we're approaching the end of November and we still don't have a settled side, we're accomodating players into a system that really doesn't work and I don't really see the kids being given the chance they deserve.
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Talking to a couple of mates who where at the game last night, Spurs fans, they came right out and said that was the worse Villa side they have seen in a very long time, probably ever, they actually thought we where so weak when the Spuds came out in the 2nd half they had trouble motivating the Spuds side forward and finish us of as we shown no resistance, after Spurs sat back a bit then we came forward.
They where also of the opinion that we would have a hell of a job keeping Bent in Jan and if Gabby decided he was fighting a lost cause we would lose him also.
Putting your best foot forward as you do I pointed out had Bent have scored in the first few mins the game could have looked very different.
You gotta laugh..
RL, has to sit up and take notice, this side is going nowhere other than possibly down, its up to him, he knows full well if he decided to to let AM go the vast majority of Villa fans would back him right now, he may have doubted the wisdom of that at the start putting it down to taking a manager from our rival club, but he must see now that we are only going one way.
Anything less than 3pts at the weekend and I would expect AM to do the honourable thing and say "this is not going to work", and go.
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Evidently and by his own words Lerner went through 20 people in order to get to Mcleish, so presumabley the ones he wanted to interview must have been very near the top.
So Martinez, hardly set the world on fire at Wigan, won one game all year and he thinks the team is playing really well.
McClaren, managed to get Forest from play off hopefuls last year to bottom of championship this.
Bernitez, obviously he wanted money to manage and that was never on the cards
Hughes, not been employed since leaving Fulham, not interviewed
Mcleish, I couldn't care if we played defensively every game and won 1 - 0 with some semblence of tactics, however we don't.
Lerner has cocked up big time and looking at the list of prospective candidates he identified then he lacks any credence in making a football decision. As a business man surely the loss he would take getting relegated means he has to invest in order to preserve our premier status.
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Some people still don't get it, we ended up with AM because he was the only one that would come knowing all the restrictions and the fact we were going to sell top players. Name another top manager that would have come? and don't think these managers don't get to here whats on offer before an interview it would have been common knowledge among their agents, no wonder Martinez didn't want to be interviewed. The set up against Spurs was cowardly and disrespectfull to the travelling Villa supporters.If we have any kid that shows he is a bit special he will be picked off by the top clubs.
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I disagree Clampy,
He has got an easy ride because of our easy fixtures, he picks bizarre teams and continues with Heskey, who yes try's a lot but is not a midfielder full stop.
Add to this, we are back to not giving the youngsters a look in, he has one game plan which is negative and keeps accusing his players of been afraid while showing his own fears in his resistance to play creative players and negative selections.
We have played 2 good games against Wigan and Norwich, Wigan are shite and Norwich was the Gabby show.
We seem to be in a cycle of just beating the shit, struggle against mediocracy and then getting hammered by the top 6.
We are now Birmingham City playing in Clret and Blue, a sad fact, which will result in one thing Relegation.
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Realistically we are unlikely to get anything against the top sides as the gulf is big. However its never impossible because thats football. You don't always have to be the better side to win but you've got to try. If we don't compete and take the game to the opposition whenever possible we give ourselves no chance.
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He got the Job partly because of 'a good reputation within the game', which I guessed meant 'Ferguson rates him'. This was confirmed by Faulkner, but ferguson is nice about all his ex-players, we have to think for ourselves. PF also said that we are trying to copy Man City with their big f**kers. Problem is Ferguson isn't a good manager because of his rough, glaswegian (sp) shipbuilding upbringing, it's because he's a very good manager, and Man City aren't a good team cos they're players are big, silva, milner, aguero etc etc are all tiny. We are clueless from top to bottom
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I don't see why Mcleish is getting all the heat, if you were in his shoes you would have jumped at the chance to manage Villa at double the salary. Who employed him? if you want to be critical blame the people who put him there, Mcleish is a crap manager but it seem everyone knew that exept Randy.
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It is tempting to say we have never been so bad or that things have never looked so bad but neither is true. We have been ten times worse than last night and we have been in situations ten times more depressing.
However, there is one factor which is unique to our present predicament and I can only describe it as schizophrenia. I will mention a few examples of things which illustrate opposing forces which are tearing the club apart.
Alex McLeish came from Birmingham City. The vast majority of us don't give a flying fuck where he came from but the standard perceived wisdom is that we do not like him because of where he came from. Thus any opinion of him is skewed by incorrect popular uninformed opinion.
We have a stream of young players coming through. They are not given adequate opportunities. When the relegation battles begin McLeish will be even more scared to give youth a chance.
Alex McLeish is a decent man who handles the media well and is very sure footed in matters of public relations. In actual playing matters he is a rabbit in the headlights. Scared shitless, tentative and dysfunctional.
We have two of the most potent front men in the Premiership but have the second lowest total of shots on target.
We had a massive blood letting over the punch up at the bonding weekend but the principal culprits of that fiasco still stamp their hoofball on every game we play.
We are told that the big wage earners must be off the balance sheet before more money can be spent on players yet one of the biggest wages cheques goes to Emile Heskey who is clearly having the team shaped around getting him into it while the manager has effectively promised him a new contract.
Jean II Makoun was given seven games to prove himself before being shipped out. Ireland looks well on the way to getting seven seasons to show something.
I could go on. Everywhere there are contradictions.
I have seen the team much worse but I have not seen them playing so badly when there is potentially a great deal going for them. The cupboard is not bare it is just locked and nobody wants to look for the key.
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Great post, Brian.
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Anything less than 3pts at the weekend and I would expect AM to do the honourable thing and say "this is not going to work", and go.
You are living in a parallel universe if you think there is any chance of that happening.
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We're stuck with the buffoon.
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Unless we are taken over or relegated, I have little doubt McLeish will still be manager this time next year.
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To be fair he's not bad at getting teams promoted to the Premier League.
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Should have had Chris Hughton, now we've done a swap - Blues are the good footballing team playing in Europe and we're the hoof' ball team with no ambition.
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Anything less than 3pts at the weekend and I would expect AM to do the honourable thing and say "this is not going to work", and go.
You are living in a parallel universe if you think there is any chance of that happening.
Yeah, when has he ever done something honourable? He ditched his country home team for the shit down the road and then ditch them for us when they were really in the shit.
Why is it also people call him a 'nice bloke'. It's like people get brainwashed on the stuff he says and believe it. He's a bullshitter. He knows he can't ditch us because no other Premier League club would be stupid enough to touch him. He probably still can't get over the fact he has gotten a bigger salary for being a failure.
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Realistically we are unlikely to get anything against the top sides as the gulf is big. However its never impossible because thats football. You don't always have to be the better side to win but you've got to try. If we don't compete and take the game to the opposition whenever possible we give ourselves no chance.
For many years we have had a great record against the so called top sides. Chlsea, United, Arsenal and Liverpoolk have all found us a very tough opponent since 06 and we have picked up wins against them all. That's what amde the Spurs game last night such a complete and utter disgrace.
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Anything less than 3pts at the weekend and I would expect AM to do the honourable thing and say "this is not going to work", and go.
You are living in a parallel universe if you think there is any chance of that happening.
I honestly think he'll get through this season at least by doing just enough.
Bad defeat at home to a poor Bolton side (their reserves FFS) - and a decent performance and result in the next two league games.
Abject surrender away to Man Citeh and home to the Olbiyun- decent performances v Sunderland and Norwich.
I think there will be widespread dissatisfaction, particularly on internet messageboards. But we won't be bad enough for long enough to turn the atmosphere at home games. We probably will see gates continue to barely scratch above the 35k mark though (I'd put money on a high 20k gate at some point in the league this season).
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Am will get the sack after taking 6 points out of 24 next season in the championship.
I didn't want him,but when he was appointed I was ready to back him.
Not any more.
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Can't really see a way out really. At least with Houllier there was the promise of him being allowed to spend in the summer - some hope of bringing in players who shared his way of playing while getting rid of those who didn't, which was my main reason for sticking with him. Now thats gone, who can we bring in better than AM? Only going to get the unemployed or a lower league manager willing to take the risk which is how we got AM in the first place. And even if we could attract a sound manager he's got nowt to work with. Youngsters, a load of work-shy duffers and the likes of gabby and Bent who will probably be exiting through the back door as he's arriving in the car park. The guy in the daily mail did a good piece today about our midfield and how AM has already decided he can't rely on 20+m of signings in Ireland, Delph and N'zogbia and how he expects him to bring in the all important midfielder this January. I fear he's sadly mistaken or he's forgotten about Jenas
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To be fair he's not bad at getting teams promoted to the Premier League.
One promotion, two relegations. The promotion only possible because of the relegation.
AM will be here as long as Randy wants him here. He was the only manager willing to put up with the cost cutting and players being sold. His appointment is like his game plan at Spurs, don't bother trying to achieve any success, just try and avoid any failure. Unfortunately like last night, when the failure becomes a reality and we will be staring at relegation, he won't have a clue what to do, and will just blindly stumble on.
I'm sure Randy wants to avoid relegation, so if we do stay up, which is more likely to happen, AM we be around for a long long time.
Our ambition will be to finish above Wolves and West Brom.
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Agree and very depressing but to cheer yourself up go to VP and watch Garry Gardner and co play some fantastic football and win games. Tonights win again Ajax was amazing so many people in the crowd commenting how different it was to the first team. Players were skillfull but also played their heart out!
Well done Villa youth!!
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The team selections smack of desperation, and yet we haven't even got a massive injury list.
If you look at the team against Spurs, you would have though we sold Downing and Young and replaced them with Hutton and Heskey.
It does kind of have the ring of what happened to Villa when Doug came back in the early 80s i.e.: take a team that has been successful; instead of making a few additions to replace old guard you sell the best players and replace with inferior ones; bring in manager with very modest potential; get relegated.
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Should have had Chris Hughton, now we've done a swap - Blues are the good footballing team playing in Europe and we're the hoof' ball team with no ambition.
Where do you get the idea that 1-1 at home to Peterborough are a good footballing side?
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I personally feel that there's been a bit of an over-reaction from a few on here today. Understandably i might add and there's a lot of truth that's been spoken, but a bit of an over-reaction in some quarters all the same.
Last night was our third league defeat, the others being against an outstanding Man City side and unfortunatley a derby, a game we were doing ok in until Phil Dowd intervened.
Last night was McCleish's first real big howler since taking over (although Bolton was'nt pretty). He got it horribly wrong and we've got to hope he realises how wrong he got it.
I think we should get to the end of the year and look at it then, that's fair i think but he's not going to get away with many more team selections and perfomances like that.
Sounds about right to me. We played well in the previous game but that's just ignored in the rush to jump on the bandwagon.
We're at the start of a rebuilding process, there are going to be ups and downs and there will undoubtedly be mistakes nade along the way but having made the decision to appoint McLeish they have to give him time to prove himself.
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I shall feel much less critical of Alex McLeish when we play well against a really good team with him in charge.
I do not feel there is a bandwagon effect with the criticism of the manager. A bandwagon the way I interpret the expression is a condition which builds up momentum and the anti McLeish feeling has been there since the day he was appointed. I do not see it as a situation where we have suddenly turned against him. In my own very personal opinion I think he was extremely lucky to to get the job and it was always his responsibility to prove that he could cope with it successfully.
In the near half a season he has been in charge there have been flashes of improvement like the second half at QPR and the Norwich game but the rest has been dire player power put it in Row ZZ stuff.
We have no choice but to allow the McLeish management term to run its course and look forward to better days some time in the future. The club has charted its course put its man at the wheel and battened down the hatches. Our morphing into Birmingham City is a price they are clearly prepared to pay. Our future will largely be shaped by luck.
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Brian, you mean near "third of a season".
Of course it's a bandwagon, some were not prepared to give him even 5 minutes while others on this very thread have said things like "final straw" etc. We've had 12 league games.
I thought at the start of the season that we were in transition. We lost our two best players and the manager was working largely with another man's squad. If you accept that fact that it becomes much easier to deal with ups and downs.
The signs were good after Norwich and Sunderland in both we played good football and posed a real goal threat. Unfortunately for the romantics those are the important games to us at the moment, we're just not on the same page as Spurs or Man City.
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All the talk this week has been about "bottleless" "Cowardly" in regard to the team and the tactics
He has 2 ways to dispel this:
a/ Picks exactly the same 11 and tells them to put it right and "you owe the fans"
or
b/ Drops a good few of them on principle (the main culprits being Collins / Hutton / Heskey) and selects a team that goes after Swansea to tear them a new arsehole
I know which one i would go for but sadly i also feel the invevitibility of it not being the same choice as AM
If he gets Sunday wrong (and its not win at all costs - its more about having the bottle to change things i can accept losing to a degree) then he really should have the grace to walk away whilst we still have some semblence of a chance to resurrect the season before we are dragged into the relegation dog fight
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Personally, I feel that he has been given a fairly easy ride so far, no one getting at him during the home matches, BUT I think that now we will start to see supporters turn against him, and become more vocal against him.
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If he gets Sunday wrong (and its not win at all costs - its more about having the bottle to change things i can accept losing to a degree) then he really should have the grace to walk away whilst we still have some semblence of a chance to resurrect the season before we are dragged into the relegation dog fight
The big problem here is he simply cannot walk away, or be sacked, until we have someone on the board who understands how football works, and who can help us get the right replacement in. Can you imagine yet another managerial appointment debacle coming swiftly after the last two? It could drag on for weeks, and further undermine any semblance of confidence the players, staff and fans might have in the board - and themselves. Until Randy sees the light and sorts that problem out, we'll be floundering. It's a huge and fundamental problem.
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Brian, you mean near "third of a season".
Of course it's a bandwagon, some were not prepared to give him even 5 minutes while others on this very thread have said things like "final straw" etc. We've had 12 league games.
I thought at the start of the season that we were in transition. We lost our two best players and the manager was working largely with another man's squad. If you accept that fact that it becomes much easier to deal with ups and downs.
The signs were good after Norwich and Sunderland in both we played good football and posed a real goal threat. Unfortunately for the romantics those are the important games to us at the moment, we're just not on the same page as Spurs or Man City.
even in the bad old days i still cant remember a Villa team defending a 2 nill loss,
sometimes you just have a bad day, it happens, but you dont set your stall out for it which is what AM did.
you might think Spurs away was just one of those things, beaten by a better team etc, but Mcliesh's management career has built on that type of team selection and tactics, it wasnt just a one off, thats the problem.
everyone was up in arms over his appointment not because of his Blues connections [although that didnt help] but because of his managment methods which we feared were exactly as we saw on monday night,
its the old saying of 'you get what it says on the tin' and what it says on AM's tin is the most boring negative football i think i can remember, not particulary at the begining of the season with Villa admitidly but on monday night and obviously through all his years at Blues.
theres just no getting away with it, we have what we have, and thats it, we cant change it , i would like a change in manager but i accept its not going to happen,
but its not a judgement of Mcliesh over the last 12 games at Villa, its a realisation that he will not change his methods, and he is what he's always been, and thats not good, and theres no point pretending otherwise
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I will be supporting Villa longer than AM is in charge. I'm sure he will be out either at the end of this season or early next.
The one positive I can take from the whole debacle is that I can't afford to watch the turgid crap that is being served up.
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I thought at the start of the season that we were in transition. We lost our two best players and the manager was working largely with another man's squad. If you accept that fact that it becomes much easier to deal with ups and downs.
I think it's clear that under Lerner from now on, the downs are going to outnumber the ups by some considerable margin. Fans can see this, which is why they're staying away in droves.
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Im pretty sure that had he decided to play a more attacking style against spurs then we wouldnt be so disgruntled had we lost. The fact that we played worse than a pub team with a defensive mind set just shows that he was set up for damage limitation. Even at 2-0 down at HT for some bizarre reason, he decided to keep the same 11 and same tactics. what was the point in that?? I'm a strong believer that you should have a go at teams not sit back and invite the pressure.
I wasn't at all keen on the appoint of Eck but was willing to give him a chance. Ok, we are 8th in the league but thats as high as we will go. He is going to be under some real pressure come december especially with the game we have. The board will not sack him though. They will stick with him all the way.
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If he gets Sunday wrong (and its not win at all costs - its more about having the bottle to change things i can accept losing to a degree) then he really should have the grace to walk away whilst we still have some semblence of a chance to resurrect the season before we are dragged into the relegation dog fight
The big problem here is he simply cannot walk away, or be sacked, until we have someone on the board who understands how football works, and who can help us get the right replacement in. Can you imagine yet another managerial appointment debacle coming swiftly after the last two? It could drag on for weeks, and further undermine any semblance of confidence the players, staff and fans might have in the board - and themselves. Until Randy sees the light and sorts that problem out, we'll be floundering. It's a huge and fundamental problem.
I completely agree.
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Im pretty sure that had he decided to play a more attacking style against spurs then we wouldnt be so disgruntled had we lost. The fact that we played worse than a pub team with a defensive mind set just shows that he was set up for damage limitation. Even at 2-0 down at HT for some bizarre reason, he decided to keep the same 11 and same tactics. what was the point in that?? I'm a strong believer that you should have a go at teams not sit back and invite the pressure.
I wasn't at all keen on the appoint of Eck but was willing to give him a chance. Ok, we are 8th in the league but thats as high as we will go. He is going to be under some real pressure come december especially with the game we have. The board will not sack him though. They will stick with him all the way.
Have to agree with all of the above.
I think it is also worth noting that when we saw the fixture list we all remarked on the easy start we had. Yet we have lost as many as we have won. 8th is a false position and by January, I think we will see this.
The bandwagon comments are a bit unfair. Many of us have said from day 1 he was the wrong man. He has done nothing to dispell that. Monday night was the first time it came into sharp focus and I think a lot of the posters, like me, fear what is going to happen to us over the next month.
I really hope McLeish shows the ability to get some results and perhaps as importantly, some good performances. We shall see.
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My one hope is that having seen that gutless display he will not attempt to do the same raising of the white flag from the off when we play the bigger teams.
Not holding out much hope though.
My overiding image of this season so far is Villa taking a kick off, passing it back to Collins to launch the ball down the pitch towards Heskey. Repeat whenever possible.
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Im pretty sure that had he decided to play a more attacking style against spurs then we wouldnt be so disgruntled had we lost. The fact that we played worse than a pub team with a defensive mind set just shows that he was set up for damage limitation. Even at 2-0 down at HT for some bizarre reason, he decided to keep the same 11 and same tactics. what was the point in that?? I'm a strong believer that you should have a go at teams not sit back and invite the pressure.
I wasn't at all keen on the appoint of Eck but was willing to give him a chance. Ok, we are 8th in the league but thats as high as we will go. He is going to be under some real pressure come december especially with the game we have. The board will not sack him though. They will stick with him all the way.
Have to agree with all of the above.
I think it is also worth noting that when we saw the fixture list we all remarked on the easy start we had. Yet we have lost as many as we have won. 8th is a false position and by January, I think we will see this.
The bandwagon comments are a bit unfair. Many of us have said from day 1 he was the wrong man. He has done nothing to dispell that. Monday night was the first time it came into sharp focus and I think a lot of the posters, like me, fear what is going to happen to us over the next month.
I really hope McLeish shows the ability to get some results and perhaps as importantly, some good performances. We shall see.
Spot on,he's only delivering what a lot of us feared he would,negative,limited tactics,yes its only 12 games,but we've easily been out played and passed in more than half of them. And with next months fixtures being tough,I can't see it improving unless he has a major rethink of his basic game plan.
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Brian, you mean near "third of a season".
Of course it's a bandwagon, some were not prepared to give him even 5 minutes while others on this very thread have said things like "final straw" etc. We've had 12 league games.
I thought at the start of the season that we were in transition. We lost our two best players and the manager was working largely with another man's squad. If you accept that fact that it becomes much easier to deal with ups and downs.
The signs were good after Norwich and Sunderland in both we played good football and posed a real goal threat. Unfortunately for the romantics those are the important games to us at the moment, we're just not on the same page as Spurs or Man City.
Chris, I can accept we are not on the same page as them, but I do expect to put up a fight when we play those teams. Monday night AMc had accepted a loss before the match had started. It's not the fact we had lost, it was how we lost - gutless. We didn't show at any point we wanted to win or had the belief.
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Bandwagon jumpers very good Mr Smith what next Happy clappers?
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I thought at the start of the season that we were in transition. We lost our two best players and the manager was working largely with another man's squad. If you accept that fact that it becomes much easier to deal with ups and downs.
I think it's clear that under Lerner from now on, the downs are going to outnumber the ups by some considerable margin. Fans can see this, which is why they're staying away in droves.
Or to put it another way, during an economic downturn in an area of the country particularly hard hit by unemployment crowds have returned to their natural level after a 2 or 3 year spike.
To say from " now on" is showing powers of prediction that most humans don't possess. For now, is certainly true but the message from his interviews last week is that he's still committed to trying to grow the club.
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Or to put it another way, during an economic downturn in an area of the country particularly hard hit by unemployment crowds have returned to their natural level after a 2 or 3 year spike.
Except that isn't true.
Average crowds for the last 15 years:
37.194
38.573
39.812
40.029
36.214
34.112
37.354
36.622
33.923
35.012
31.597
31.697
36.935
36.136
36.027
average over that period = 36,082.
The entire country is feeling the effects of the recession, not just the midlands, and everywhere crowds are suffering a little, but nowhere have they suffered as much as ours have.
It's fair enough for us to argue about why the crowds are down, but to pretend they've done nothing other than sink to a "natural" level strikes me as ignoring statistical fact.
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I think the posters on this site are pretty good at spotting lemons but always willing to back the managers judgement til proven right. I site Harewood and Heskey as prime examples, the disbelief when MON signed those two, we knew they were crap players but still gave them time to prove us wrong, unfortunately our judgement proved correct. Heskey tries hard i'll give him that but what good is he? and the latest purchase Hutton he will be one of the undropables because AM will have to prove he was right.
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I thought at the start of the season that we were in transition. We lost our two best players and the manager was working largely with another man's squad. If you accept that fact that it becomes much easier to deal with ups and downs.
I think it's clear that under Lerner from now on, the downs are going to outnumber the ups by some considerable margin. Fans can see this, which is why they're staying away in droves.
Or to put it another way, during an economic downturn in an area of the country particularly hard hit by unemployment crowds have returned to their natural level after a 2 or 3 year spike.
To say from " now on" is showing powers of prediction that most humans don't possess. For now, is certainly true but the message from his interviews last week is that he's still committed to trying to grow the club.
Wrong Chris, when was the last time our average crowd has been as low as it is now, bearing in mind we've had two local derbies as well? Enough people have said that they're not going any more because of the perceived lack of direction from the club. The economic downturn will have had some effect, but not as much as Lerner clearly having had enough.
Lerner is just an appalling businessman. He lost total control over finances, makes poor appointments, and under him now we're in a worse financial position than we were under Ellis. All he's done is let O'Neill take a scatter gun approach to transfers, less than half of which actually improved the club.
Take it from me, we haven't see the worst of the austerity measures under Lerner yet.
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Or to put it another way, during an economic downturn in an area of the country particularly hard hit by unemployment crowds have returned to their natural level after a 2 or 3 year spike.
Except that isn't true.
Average crowds for the last 15 years:
37.194
38.573
39.812
40.029
36.214
34.112
37.354
36.622
33.923
35.012
31.597
31.697
36.935
36.136
36.027
average over that period = 36,082.
The entire country is feeling the effects of the recession, not just the midlands, and everywhere crowds are suffering a little, but nowhere have they suffered as much as ours have.
It's fair enough for us to argue about why the crowds are down, but to pretend they've done nothing other than sink to a "natural" level strikes me as ignoring statistical fact.
Now take out the spike I mentioned and what is the figure? Our three highest averages were all under in the last 5 years.
It's clear that the current level of support is not unprecedented.
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Since General Krulak stopped posting can I ask if H&V has any direct contact with the club anymore? Is there any way that supporter's collective concerns expressed on threads like this can be passed on to the club? Perhaps a letter (not a publicity seeking open letter) sent to the club from H&V that summarises the worries that people here have may be of value. Written in the right spirit I think a letter from H&V Towers to the club might be worthwhile... and personally I would like to see the campaigning/lobbying aspect of fanzines return.... This might already be happening so I go back to my initial question, Does H&V have any contact with the club management at the mo?
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Or to put it another way, during an economic downturn in an area of the country particularly hard hit by unemployment crowds have returned to their natural level after a 2 or 3 year spike.
Except that isn't true.
Average crowds for the last 15 years:
37.194
38.573
39.812
40.029
36.214
34.112
37.354
36.622
33.923
35.012
31.597
31.697
36.935
36.136
36.027
average over that period = 36,082.
The entire country is feeling the effects of the recession, not just the midlands, and everywhere crowds are suffering a little, but nowhere have they suffered as much as ours have.
It's fair enough for us to argue about why the crowds are down, but to pretend they've done nothing other than sink to a "natural" level strikes me as ignoring statistical fact.
Now take out the spike I mentioned and what is the figure? Our three highest averages were all under in the last 5 years.
It's clear that the current level of support is not unprecedented.
Our current average is 32,922, lower than any attendance in the last 10 years, AND we've played two local derbies at home. Our ten year average is 36,800, so we're currently well down. It's clear that our average attendance should be somewhere up around the 37K mark, and it goes up a thousand or so when we do well, and drops a thousand when we do less well. These crowds are dire.
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The average of the ten years pre Lerner was 34.9k. My guess is that is around where we'll be by the end of the season. We've played none of the top clubs at home and our crowds are generally higher after Christmas.
They are clearly down but comparing them to the unusually high averages of the past few years distorts the picture.
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I think it's clear that when there's a bit of hope around, crowds go up, when there isn't, they go down. I dread to think what they'd be in the Championship.
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Seriously lads we havent a hope under McLeish or without someone running the club who actually has a clue what he is doing. If it came down to a choice of McLeish walking or a Dein or Levy type figure being appointed as CE, Id plump for a proper CE.
The club is sleepwalking into oblivion. I wouldnt mind but I think we actually have a decent enough squad at the moment. With lots of young players on the verge of the first team and a mix of Given, Dunne, Bent, Gabby, Nzogbia who are as good in their positions as most players in the league. But without leadership in the board room and on the sideline, these players wont thrive and will just continue to leave.
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I dont want to get distracted by crowd volumes as this was not the point of the thread - this was a thread about how we have morphed into the dog shit and the common denominator is clearly the managers mentality in relation to senior players and tactics.
Any how another factor regarding the crowds at VP - Norwich have been the only club that actually took up their full allocation considering we have had 2 local derbies neither of the away supporters filled their allocation and considering other include Blackburn (750) and Wigan (450) that certainly does not help the overall total headcount
Even the barcodes brought 1000 less than they usually do and they are the bestest greatest fans in the world
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McLeish is the managerial equivalent of Harewood. When we signed him I despaired, said I'd give him a chance, but all along I knew he was shite. And despite the odd hint at quality, so it proved.
As for the neutral view, in the mailbox on football 365, there are a couple of non-villa fans commenting on the game with Spurs, and marvelling at how bad we were, and at the complete absurdity and ineptitude of McLeish's selection, formation and, er, "tactics". One asked if we are that bad every week, another was gobsmacked at Mcleish urging the players to keep it up at the 86 minute mark - the "it" in question presumably being defending the 2-0 defeat. Another thanked Villa for providing Harry with the completely stress-free return he needed.
True there has been the odd glimpse of attempts to play decent football, but against opposition rated between mediocre and appalling. Only three of whom we've beaten, and then only just. In two games against the better teams we have simply bent over and splayed our arse cheeks. That is the most damning element of McLeish's reign.
He's supposed to be utilising the academy talent - Okay he's used Herd, Bannan and to a lesser extent Baker, but Clarke, Delfounso and Albrighton have barely had a sniff. Would they have been any worse than Collins, Heskey and Hutton on Wednesday? I can't imagine how.
Ultimately I ask myself could I see any of the top flight clubs of similar size or potential to us (say Everton, Spurs, Newcastle, even Sunderland) accepting that kind of mediocrity, gutlessness, lack of belief and piss poor technique. Would any of them consider appointing a manager with McLeish's track record in the PL? I really can't see it.
Unfortunately for us, relegation might be the only way to get shot of him.
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The average of the ten years pre Lerner was 34.9k. My guess is that is around where we'll be by the end of the season. We've played none of the top clubs at home and our crowds are generally higher after Christmas.
They are clearly down but comparing them to the unusually high averages of the past few years distorts the picture.
No, it doesnt, though.
In fact, it is more relevant to look at it against recent averages as it shows the way things have swung.
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I think relegation would not get rid of him - he then would be promoted as being the manager who has won promotion from the championship
We need him to have the balls to realise this job, as well rewarded as it is , is beyond him and to walk away
I also have spokent oa few clients of ours who are ST holders at Spurs and they have always said that one of the many games they look forward to in recent times as been us at their place. The reasoning has been that both teams were attack minded and it was alway a decent / open game. They always knew they had been in a game even if they had won.
They could not believe the team selection or the way we played either and said it was the worst performance they had seen at WHL by any team for many years - without being too condescending they actually said that they felt for us
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I think it's clear that when there's a bit of hope around, crowds go up, when there isn't, they go down. I dread to think what they'd be in the Championship.
if we were near the top, with a decent manager, larger than they are now would be my guess
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I think relegation would not get rid of him - he then would be promoted as being the manager who has won promotion from the championship
We need him to have the balls to realise this job, as well rewarded as it is , is beyond him and to walk away
I also have spokent oa few clients of ours who are ST holders at Spurs and they have always said that one of the many games they look forward to in recent times as been us at their place. The reasoning has been that both teams were attack minded and it was alway a decent / open game. They always knew they had been in a game even if they had won.
They could not believe the team selection or the way we played either and said it was the worst performance they had seen at WHL by any team for many years - without being too condescending they actually said that they felt for us
Listening to the last few minutes on fivelive,the commentators seemed really shocked at how negative and poor we were.
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There hasn't half been some toss written in this thread!
Worst performance (or even most gutless performance) for 40 years? Not even fucking close!
"I'd accept relegation to get rid of McLeish"? Get a fucking grip on yourself.
"We're doomed, the whole club is shit" - No we're not and no it isn't, we're in a bit of a slump which many, many clubs go through, made to look worse by the optimism garnered at the start of the Lerner era.
"Sleepwalking into oblivion" - Larf *faceplam* as Greggers would say, we won't go down, and I'm sure the board are as aware of the problems we have as all us internet warriors are. They were last January when things looked even more grim, cue Darren Bent.
And as for the question in the title thread, well a lot of you had a stake in your club up until the time you all fell over yourself to give Randy your shares!
Get a grip and get back to supporting your club, that is all.
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And as for the question in the title thread, well a lot of you had a stake in your club up until the time you all fell over yourself to give Randy your shares!
Or to be more precise "legally obliged to sell the shares whether they wanted to or not".
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And as for the question in the title thread, well a lot of you had a stake in your club up until the time you all fell over yourself to give Randy your shares!
Or to be more precise "legally obliged to sell the shares whether they wanted to or not".
Yep, I never wanted to sell my one measly share.
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And as for the question in the title thread, well a lot of you had a stake in your club up until the time you all fell over yourself to give Randy your shares!
Or to be more precise "legally obliged to sell the shares whether they wanted to or not".
I'm more talking about the many posters on more than one internet forum whowere urging us to sell, sell, sell just in case he walked away.
One poster, hwo hsall remaon nameless, actually called me a non-Villa supporting ****** because I said I was keeping mine.
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I'd put it down to paranoia we'd be stuck with Ellis and sink into Oblivion. They were strange times indeed.
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Brian, you mean near "third of a season".
Of course it's a bandwagon, some were not prepared to give him even 5 minutes while others on this very thread have said things like "final straw" etc. We've had 12 league games.
I thought at the start of the season that we were in transition. We lost our two best players and the manager was working largely with another man's squad. If you accept that fact that it becomes much easier to deal with ups and downs.
The signs were good after Norwich and Sunderland in both we played good football and posed a real goal threat. Unfortunately for the romantics those are the important games to us at the moment, we're just not on the same page as Spurs or Man City.
Chris, I can accept we are not on the same page as them, but I do expect to put up a fight when we play those teams. Monday night AMc had accepted a loss before the match had started. It's not the fact we had lost, it was how we lost - gutless. We didn't show at any point we wanted to win or had the belief.
Ditto that. If he really has no intention of going out to win these games, rotate the squad and trial new tactics.
It is also interesting to note, when reading threads on national newspaper websites, the amount of sympathy there is for AV fans at the moment. That's not really a good sign at all. It's the kind of sentiment you see when a colleague is dismissed who you don't like, but have to feel sorry for them.
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Worst performance (or even most gutless performance) for 40 years? Not even fucking close!
It was no worse than Man City (twice) last season and Liverpool, that is true.
However, I've got to say I'm dreading the visit of Randy and Alex Mcleish's 'hero' with his Newton Heath team in a few weeks. If we rolled over to Spurs and Man City so easily are we going to put up any kind of fight against Manure?
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if its the united from last night who shows up we will put on a snorefest, i was at old trafford last night looking forward to a good free flowing game and it was shit, admittedly i was happy about that as i went supporting benfica, but it was truly tragic david de gua is enklemann in disguise
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It doesn't seem so long ago that the press loved coming to B6 and even Capello said the future of England lay with the Villa players we had, what a difference 18 months make.
I live in Canada and I am coming home next week for a fortnight and for the first time ever when coming home I am not bothered about going to watch the Villa under AM, I will love being home and will go to the shop but that is all really!
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One of the main reasons that i thought McLeish was such a strange appointment was that his poor CV and (to a far lesser extent) Blues connection would put him under extreme pressure from the beginning and wouldn't allow him any time to fail.
Then the fixture list was drawn up and i could see some rays of hope that he might be able to show enough of what he could do before we had a run of tough games, giving him some time in the bank. The problem is that our early season form has been woeful. The brief highlights being the game against Norwich and the second half against QPR (following one of the worst halves of football i've ever seen from us)
Last season we flirted dangerously with relegation before our change of fortunes in the last few games gave our final league position a sheen of respectability. We have lost some of our only genuine quality from that team and are now set for a run of tough fixtures in a league where there are only a couple of games where i would honestly expect us to win.
Whoever took on the job in the summer would have had a tough job rebuilding the team and their confidence with little budget but the board made it a lot harder by choosing McLeish.
I can't see the board getting rid of him but i can see the atmosphere becoming pretty ugly down at Villa Park. If i was Randy Lerner i would be extremely concerned by the number of long time season ticket holders who are talking about giving it up. Once that sense of duty people feel to their team has been broken it won't be easy to replace them.
What could be done to turn the atmosphere around? Get the kids in the team. Trouble is the time to do that would have been from the start, can't see it happening if we slide down the table.
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I think relegation would not get rid of him - he then would be promoted as being the manager who has won promotion from the championship
We need him to have the balls to realise this job, as well rewarded as it is , is beyond him and to walk away
I also have spokent oa few clients of ours who are ST holders at Spurs and they have always said that one of the many games they look forward to in recent times as been us at their place. The reasoning has been that both teams were attack minded and it was alway a decent / open game. They always knew they had been in a game even if they had won.
They could not believe the team selection or the way we played either and said it was the worst performance they had seen at WHL by any team for many years - without being too condescending they actually said that they felt for us
That's one of the sad things about the other night, we've had some absolute cracking games at WHL over the years, the 5-2 around 1992, the 4-3 with the last gasp winner from Saunders, I think another 5-2 after being 2 down when Dublin was playing, the Marewood 4-4 under MON. Even last year's defeat was a decent game with both sides having a go. Monday night was a stark contrast indeed.