Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Match Threads & Player Ratings => Topic started by: Legion on October 14, 2011, 07:28:31 PM
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Available Saturday evening.
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Kind of expected, shame we managed ok until half time and then threw it away straight after. It's a shame we can't compete.
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Well, I think... oh fuck it! What's the point?
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Manchester City are quite good really.
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Like most things in life you get what you pay for.
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i cant be bothered to pass comment on it so i wont.
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That was painful. We were poor. Didn't have a clue in all honesty.
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Makes me angry about football, not Villa.
To be expected. Forget it and move on. Three points next week will do. Any less will be very disappointing.
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still in the top half despite selling our two best players, and I'd bet, nearly everyone would have taken that at the beginning of the season.
It's not today's result that really matters, it's losing the points in the final minutes of the game that will make a difference.
We just lost to the potential champions at their place.
Still think we've got enough to stay up. Remember, last season we didn't guarantee our safety till the penultimate game, and that was with both Young and Downing. Credit to AM for achieving what he has done so far.
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These days i don't rush back early from work!
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Well Man City stepped it up.
Division apart IMO, have to say at one point in the 2nd half when they where taking the piss, thought that was the lowest point, honestly felt if Man City wanted that bad enough they could have scored another couple with ease.
This was always going to be the real test, first quality side we have come up against and we lacked all over, our defence was shocking at times.
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We lost to the best team in the league, so no real disgrace there imho.
Positives for me were Clark, Hutton, and Ireland, who i thought played well.
Negatives, we need better passers in the middle of the park, work harder off the ball, and Gabby and Bent need to be stonger when receiving the ball.Tbh even if Randy had spent 30/40 million this summer, i think we would still be way behind Citeeh.Not over disappointed with the performance, we constantly kept trying to play football, and pass the ball.Whisper it quietly but i am starting to warm to Mr McCleish.
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For the first time all season we have a pretty good 1st half. Then we switch off for the second instead.
Still look woefully static going forward and still seem to play a rugby style off passing, having to go backwards to get forwards.
There's no dynamism in our attack, feel sorry for Gabby & Benty.
Just have to hope there's a spare middle eastern royal family looking to buy into Prem football.
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Just shows why modern football is crap, the league is boring and predictable beyond the top 6 and why we couldn't sell 1700 tickets today. Watching your team get spanked for £38 battling to finish 8th isn't fun.
Fabian Delph is a piss poor excuse for a footballer, i said it before the season started and i've said it after every game since. He's Championship standard at best.
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I thought Clark was poor to be honest.
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Makes me angry about football, not Villa.
To be expected. Forget it and move on. Three points next week will do. Any less will be very disappointing.
Exactly this. Predictable scoreline. There are a lot of teams bunched together who are all average, we are only 3 points behind Liverpool who spent loads. Man City and the other 1 or 2 are in a league of their own.
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I think the FA must have issued a statement that 8+ goals are not good for the game! How many could it have been? Need to survive now against lesser sides!
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I thought Clark was poor to be honest.
Bent and Delph were contenders for me.
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This was always going to be the real test, first quality side we have come up against and we lacked all over, our defence was shocking at times.
So forget the results we've got so far, the actual test is when we come up against a team of world class players after spending a sum we could only dream of? A team who will almost certainly finish in the top 4 and probably run other teams close for the championship?
Edit: Quite right, sorry Legion.
I haven't half had enough of some people on here seeming delighted whenever we lose, though, they can't wait to stick the boot in.
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This was always going to be the real test, first quality side we have come up against and we lacked all over, our defence was shocking at times.
So forget the results we've got so far, the actual test is when we come up against a team of world class players after spending a sum we could only dream of? A team who will almost certainly finish in the top 4 and probably run other teams close for the championship?
Are you joking, or are you just a twat?
No need for that.
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Perhaps could have been a little different had Gabs scored at 0-0. (Id have picked up some first GS bet money to go out on the piss with for a start!) Although, we probably still would have lost. They really are a very good team. Thats what ridiculous money gets you though.
3 points next week will do nicely.
Oh, and Heskey was more Kaiser Chiefs than Der Kaiser today
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Just shows why modern football is crap, the league is boring and predictable beyond the top 6 and why we couldn't sell 1700 tickets today. Watching your team get spanked for £38 battling to finish 8th isn't fun.
Fabian Delph is a piss poor excuse for a footballer, i said it before the season started and i've said it after every game since. He's Championship standard at best.
Best point made, isn't it a sad day when your allowed to throw 500ML at a side and they can pass a ball around like that and make everything else look totally embarrassing.
How sad has football become..........................and friggin boring, did any Man City player actually break sweat.
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If you're going to play Heskey, at least use him in strongest position as a target man.
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Sad to say I predicted 4-1 to them and the gulf in class reflects the gulf in finances. They'll buy all the trophies and continue to hoover up the best players, so the filthy Mancs can carry on with that twatty celebration. Bit pissed off with the team selection but think we'd have lost whoever played. Not too hung up about the result - we're going to need a huge slice of luck to beat the likes of Citeh and unfortunately we've become also-rans. I'll be more concerned if we don't get results in the next 3 games.
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Well... we scored, which is a plus after last season's visits.
I'm out tonight with a Citeh supporting mate, which should be as much fun as watching the game for a second time.
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This was always going to be the real test, first quality side we have come up against and we lacked all over, our defence was shocking at times.
So forget the results we've got so far, the actual test is when we come up against a team of world class players after spending a sum we could only dream of? A team who will almost certainly finish in the top 4 and probably run other teams close for the championship?
What results? Why play clark when Cuellar is on the bench? Our defence was shocking at times like their second goal for instance!
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Just shows why modern football is crap, the league is boring and predictable beyond the top 6 and why we couldn't sell 1700 tickets today. Watching your team get spanked for £38 battling to finish 8th isn't fun.
Fabian Delph is a piss poor excuse for a footballer, i said it before the season started and i've said it after every game since. He's Championship standard at best.
I have to agree.
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Predictable line up, predictable pattern of play, predictable result.
Saw a comparison of stats of Petrov and Delph against their opposing pair for each game this season and they have not come close to matching any of them. Worrying when you consider this is the first really decent team we have come up against.
Why is it every game our players look as though they are playing with each other for the first time.
Somebody said it earlier and I feel the same, if this had happened a couple of years ago, I would have been upset. Now, I couldn't have cared if they had scored another couple.
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This was always going to be the real test, first quality side we have come up against and we lacked all over, our defence was shocking at times.
So forget the results we've got so far, the actual test is when we come up against a team of world class players after spending a sum we could only dream of? A team who will almost certainly finish in the top 4 and probably run other teams close for the championship?
Edit: Quite right, sorry Legion.
I haven't half had enough of some people on here seeming delighted whenever we lose, though, they can't wait to stick the boot in.
Complete rubbish. this is exactly the kind of team that tests the side, that shows the teams strengths and weaknesses. talking complete rubbish.
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Bring Clark back into the centre of defence and concede 4 goals?
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You thought Clark was poor Paul.
For me against a very good player he did'nt get over exposed, covered well, but more importantly always tried to play the ball out, and keep the ball.The fact that Petrov and Delph did'nt do a great deal with it when they got it was not his fault.The fact that Gabby and Bent were not stong enough to hold onto the ball and bring other players into the game was not his fault either.Heskey is too cumbersome at this level, as is Warnock tbh.Not enough options when we had the ball, only Hutton was making runs off the ball,copy Citeehs team work and tbh we will finish easily in the top 8.
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If you can't get hold of yje ball you can't play and if you can't deliver to the forwards you'll never score..we was lucky with that result. A lesson in Football.
Next week we have a more, potentially, achievable objective.
Need to get points from the lesser teams!
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I wonder what we could have done differently to change this result and reckon half a billion ££££ might help.
There will be more days like this for us and most of the rest of the Premiership.
I almost feel like saying it aye fair!
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For the first time all season we have a pretty good 1st half. Then we switch off for the second instead.
Still look woefully static going forward and still seem to play a rugby style off passing, having to go backwards to get forwards.
There's no dynamism in our attack, feel sorry for Gabby & Benty.
Agree with that, our midfield is just so weak and disjointed.
Delph and Bannan constantly gave the ball away.
Petrov still thinks he's a young Frank Lampard. At times great but no real sense of positioning which makes Delph look poor..
Heskey was there because erm.. he's big? Yes Man City are the strongest, most physical side in the PL but we should be trying to build something there.
Thought Ireland did ok but still doesn't bust a gut.
N'Zogbia? As mentioned on the Match thread, I'd completely forgotten we had him.
Let's face it, there's not much to choose from but the team have such little confidence in each others ability on the ball, they always opt for the 99.9% safe ball 30 yards back rather than play a neat one-two and move forward.
Like you Beds, I felt really sorry for Bent and Gabby (my MOTM) with the poor service all day.
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It was an oblect lesson in football today. Let's hope a lesson learnt. We can use the experience against lesser teams. Not going anywhere this season!
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Complete rubbish. this is exactly the kind of team that tests the side, that shows the teams strengths and weaknesses. talking complete rubbish.
And Barcelona would test Coventry, it's a bit daft to consider it "the real test" though, isn't it?
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I wonder what we could have done differently to change this result and reckon half a billion ££££ might help.
There will be more days like this for us and most of the rest of the Premiership.
I almost feel like saying it aye fair!
Its how we bounce back from this, shouldn't be a problem but they (the FA) need to do something to get more of a balance in the Premiership whereby its more of a level playing field because Man City could throw another 500ML at this squad and play everybody out of sight. Crazy.
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Makes me angry about football, not Villa.
To be expected. Forget it and move on. Three points next week will do. Any less will be very disappointing.
Exactly... from twitter..
"Excitement continues at #mcfc where the real world equivalent of an FM cheat continues to help a failing small club to pyrrhic victories."
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It was an oblect lesson in football today. Let's hope a lesson learnt. We can use the experience against lesser teams. Not going anywhere this season!
It was, we can play your Blackburn's and Co all day long, they won't teach you anything, we've now played a good side and we should learn from that and improve and I'm sure AM will look to do that.
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This club can lure away players from Arsenal.
That's the team with the largest match day income.
That's one of the big four
That's one that have had Champions League football since it was invented.
If they can't compete how can we?
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The really annoying thing is, I looked at their line-up, saw they'd left out Silva and Nasri, and had Aguero missing, and still assumed we'd get tanked.
But let's face it, with the amount they are spending, if they failed to beat us at home it would be a ridiculously bad result for them. Hardly anyone will go to Eastlands and get even a point. We aren't competing against City in any way this season, and we only need to worry about results against teams around us. Next week will be far more important.
I refuse to feel even slightly depressed about that defeat.
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This club can lure away players from Arsenal.
That's the team with the largest match day income.
That's one of the big four
That's one that have had Champions League football since it was invented.
If they can't compete how can we?
This is why something must be done to get a more level playing field, otherwise teams will raise the white flag even before they've taken to the pitch.
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With regard to the Bannan's non-selction, I think McLeish has been pretty shrewd here.
The reality is that we would probably still lost, however Bannan has not been exposed and will be fresher for a winnable fixture in a week.
Failure to pick him next week will deserve the wrath that some expressed today.
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I'm not buying all this 'outclassed' shit. We gifted them 3 goals. Two from corners and one from Warnock trying to do Doug Ellis.
We were our own worst enemy today - Milner's goal was class and the only one I can excuse.
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Makes me angry about football, not Villa.
To be expected. Forget it and move on. Three points next week will do. Any less will be very disappointing.
Exactly this. Predictable scoreline. There are a lot of teams bunched together who are all average, we are only 3 points behind Liverpool who spent loads. Man City and the other 1 or 2 are in a league of their own.
Exactly this again. I stopped receiving Sky Sports last weekend - and how liberating does that feel - and this result kinda symbolises exactly why. Another hugely mediocre Saturday afternoon in the Premier League passes me by...
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I'm not buying all this 'outclassed' shit. We gifted them 3 goals. Two from corners and one from Warnock trying to do Doug Ellis.
We were our own worst enemy today - Milner's goal was class and the only one I can excuse.
True I was going to write similar. They did create a few, not loads, of other chances however.
I just hope we got our bad defending day out of the way against this lot as we cannot afford it against lesser teams.
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Makes me angry about football, not Villa.
To be expected. Forget it and move on. Three points next week will do. Any less will be very disappointing.
Exactly this. Predictable scoreline. There are a lot of teams bunched together who are all average, we are only 3 points behind Liverpool who spent loads. Man City and the other 1 or 2 are in a league of their own.
Exactly this again. I stopped receiving Sky Sports last weekend - and how liberating does that feel - and this result kinda symbolises exactly why. Another hugely mediocre Saturday afternoon in the Premier League passes me by...
More sadness than anger for me.
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I'm really glad I wasn't stupid enough to rebel rouse pre-match that we would win!
Another 3 points bought by the City filthy lucre. Fuck em and their money. The 3 we earn next week in the oldest derby will feel much sweeter than theirs did today.
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I'm not buying all this 'outclassed' shit. We gifted them 3 goals. Two from corners and one from Warnock trying to do Doug Ellis.
We were our own worst enemy today - Milner's goal was class and the only one I can excuse.
Its a good point, 1st half, for all there money it certainly didn't show Villa where just as good, in fact I though Villa where slightly the better side in the first 20mins, maybe Gabby could have scored, maybe Heskey could have scored and maybe had that have been the case we may have seen a different outcome.
Then the mega rich concept would have seemed crap.
Still think with who this side have and left out its all out of kilter.
Still Villa will look back at the first half, we held our own, it was a good test of our character, if we can take a lesson from the first 45 then we will continue to do well IMO.
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Makes me angry about football, not Villa.
To be expected. Forget it and move on. Three points next week will do. Any less will be very disappointing.
Exactly... from twitter..
"Excitement continues at #mcfc where the real world equivalent of an FM cheat continues to help a failing small club to pyrrhic victories."
Beautifully put - exactly what my head thinks but I can't quite express so eloquently...
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Agree about the midfield. Ireland seems promising to me, I think in a better side he'd look really good.
But the question we have to ask ourselves is: what exactly are Delph and Petrov for? What I would like to see is specialists. If you're going to compete with the big boys, you need athletic buggers who can stamp their authority on the game and stifle the supply to the opposing forwards. De Jong, Fellaini, etc.
Petrov and Delph are both lightweights, neither of them have any natural defensive ability, neither are especially quick or strong, they're both crap in the air, and Delph doesn't even have Stan's technical ability so he keeps giving the ball away or playing hospital passes to teammates.
We haven't had a strong, balanced midfield at Villa for years. I wish someone would sort it out.
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Bring on the Baggies.
4-1 is what I predicted, so now we need 3 points next Saturday - that's about it really !
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Also fair play to Milner for not celebrating, although that may have been because what's the point of celebrating in such a one sided contest.
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My stream went down towards the end - did Milner celebrate his goal?
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My stream went down towards the end - did Milner celebrate his goal?
No.
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Also fair play to Milner for not celebrating, although that may have been because what's the point of celebrating in such a one sided contest.
Blimey, you must be psychic.
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This was always going to be the real test, first quality side we have come up against and we lacked all over, our defence was shocking at times.
So forget the results we've got so far, the actual test is when we come up against a team of world class players after spending a sum we could only dream of? A team who will almost certainly finish in the top 4 and probably run other teams close for the championship?
Edit: Quite right, sorry Legion.
I haven't half had enough of some people on here seeming delighted whenever we lose, though, they can't wait to stick the boot in.
Complete rubbish. this is exactly the kind of team that tests the side, that shows the teams strengths and weaknesses. talking complete rubbish.
That shows the team’s strengths and weaknesses? I suppose it does, but what did we actually learn from today? That our central midfield is a bit lightweight compared with Toure and De Jong? That Balotelli is a bit too good for the likes of Hutton and Warnock? That all over the pitch we just aren’t as good as Citeh? You don’t say.
As others have said, it’s a sad indictment of the current state of football that we knew we would probably lose this game, and we did. We all know where our weaknesses are, today they were confirmed. We have strengths too, but against a side like that they count for very little. Even if our strongest XI played out of their skins Citeh have got enough quality on the pitch and on the bench to deal with it – they didn’t spend £300 zillion to lose at home to the likes of us.
Griping about today’s game is pointless. If you want to use it as a stick to beat McLeish or have a pop at any of the players, fine, but I’d say you should have a reality check before you give yourself an ulcer. The best thing we can all do is forget it and move on. Have a few drinks, enjoy your evening, and let’s look forward to a very sweet three points next week.
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Also fair play to Milner for not celebrating, although that may have been because what's the point of celebrating in such a one sided contest.
It was a goal worth celebrating by any standards. Pure class, from the 50 yard ball he played out to start the move to the most beautiful of finishes into the top corner.
Milner previously showed his true character last season for us against West Ham so today was no surprise. The lad has respect.
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One other thing, were they fitter than us?
Barry left 2 years ago, and yet on todays performance his running off the ball was more noticeable than he ever did for us.
That was the big difference today, when they had the ball their urgency and movement was much more superior to ours.
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One other thing, were they fitter than us?
Barry left 2 years ago, and yet on todays performance his running off the ball was more noticeable than he ever did for us.
That was the big difference today, when they had the ball their urgency and movement was much more superior to ours.
Better players around him probably helps.
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One other thing, were they fitter than us?
Barry left 2 years ago, and yet on todays performance his running off the ball was more noticeable than he ever did for us.
That was the big difference today, when they had the ball their urgency and movement was much more superior to ours.
You're so right, we lack so much urgency in our build up play, I mentioned earlier there seems to be a lack of faith in each others ability. Safe, slow passes.
Saying that, I got the feeling Man City never really had to move out of second gear all game which may go some way to explain Custard Pants appearing to look fit today.
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Also fair play to Milner for not celebrating, although that may have been because what's the point of celebrating in such a one sided contest.
It was a goal worth celebrating by any standards. Pure class, from the 50 yard ball he played out to start the move to the most beautiful of finishes into the top corner.
Milner previously showed his true character last season for us against West Ham so today was no surprise. The lad has respect.
Yeah you're probably right. It's just sad to see us taken to the cleaners.
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We lost to the best team in the league, so no real disgrace there imho.
Positives for me were Clark, Hutton, and Ireland, who i thought played well.
Negatives, we need better passers in the middle of the park, work harder off the ball, and Gabby and Bent need to be stonger when receiving the ball.Tbh even if Randy had spent 30/40 million this summer, i think we would still be way behind Citeeh.Not over disappointed with the performance, we constantly kept trying to play football, and pass the ball.
Agree with this.
Can't believe some of the comments on the match thread: we did okay against a side that is eons ahead of us and people were still bitching about selections and individuals.
Petrov worked bloody hard; Warnock (Citeh's second goal aside) palyed okay; Ireland had a few good touches; Clark looks really good all round; and Gabby did well with the little he had. Felt sorry for Bent: nothing is happening for him at the moment.
As Paulie kept saying this afternon: next week's game will show whether McGinge can steer us to safety or to oblivion.
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One other thing, were they fitter than us?
Barry left 2 years ago, and yet on todays performance his running off the ball was more noticeable than he ever did for us.
That was the big difference today, when they had the ball their urgency and movement was much more superior to ours.
There was one time in the 2nd half when Barry left Petrov for dead. That just shows why we lose the midfield battle week after week.
The good parts of our team are constantly let down by the weaker parts but as a club we fail to rectify the situation.
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I've really fallen out of love for this game. I hope there's a radical shake up in football.
That is all.
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Our midfield is shown up badly against citeh's let's be honest second string team,was there a game plan today ?
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I've really fallen out of love for this game. I hope there's a radical shake up in football.
That is all.
Yeah ditto to be honest, there's something very wrong about the game. It's dull and not at all competitive.
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I agree with others that we didn't play all that badly and we had one or two decent moments, but we were terribly dull. For much of the 2nd half, as City stroked the ball around and we didn't get a touch, I was very bored, waiting for it all to end. No aggression from Villa, no excitement. Is this what football has become?
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I've really fallen out of love for this game. I hope there's a radical shake up in football.
That is all.
Yeah ditto to be honest, there's something very wrong about the game. It's dull and not at all competitive.
And I don't mean that in a petulant way. It's just that it's all so pointless now and there's no soul in the game. Kendrick has tweeted that no villa player came to speak to the press, what does it matter to them?
It can't go on like this, it has to burst some day.
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It will go on like this, because most people seem happy to keep on paying their Sky Sports subscriptions to watch The BIG FOUR!!! every week.
The people who could actually change how football works won't, because it doesn't benefit them, they're making money just fine the ways things are.
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I've really fallen out of love for this game. I hope there's a radical shake up in football.
That is all.
Yeah ditto to be honest, there's something very wrong about the game. It's dull and not at all competitive.
Plus we are shite and it appears we are happy to stay that way as long as we stay up.......I agree the modern game is no longer competitive (unless of course you have ££££ Millions to spunk on mercanaries and their salaries).
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I wonder what would Roberto Mancini do if he took over Aston Villa as manager What we will be like in 2 years.
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City fans are a bunch of ******, arrogant twats, if they win anything they will be unbearable. You can understand why mcleish left bannan out but why put heskey in? Fucking hopeless did the fat shit break a sweat?
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Losing to them means nothing in the grander scheme of things, it's just a fixture to get out of the way. That said we gifted them two goals so didn't help ourselves. Perhaps Collins is more important to us that he's given credit for.
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Highlights (http://www.101greatgoals.com/videodisplay/manchester-city-4%E2%80%93-aston-villa-15555698/)
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So, we lost away against the richest club in the world who are gonna spank 15/19 teams this season.
Let's move on & beat the baggies next week,
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I thought we would lose and we did
Their team cost about £400 million and ours cost a fraction of that
Predictable and a sad indictment of the so called greatest league in the world; let the Sky Six form their own league and play each other live on Sky PPV 8 times a season to keep the Sky pundits and their legions of armchair fans happy
We gave it our best shot, we were far from embarrassed and the score probably flattered them but onwards and upwards to next weekend; come on you Villa boys
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Losing to them means nothing in the grander scheme of things, it's just a fixture to get out of the way. That said we gifted them two goals so didn't help ourselves. Perhaps Collins is more important to us that he's given credit for.
What is the grander scheme?
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Exactly as expected. I predicted 4-0 so to score a goal was a bonus...heard the Villa fans were taking the piss doing the Poznan so at least something to look forward to on MOTD.
Nothing more to see here...moving swiftly back to the real world with a win against Baggies next week please.
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Low points.........It's the money that won it.
High points.........we're the first team this season to score at whatever they call their ground nowadays.
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I put it this way. Today, we probably going to lose from the start. We had a shot, but it was an outside shot. If Gabby would've tucked that early chance away we could have probably scrapped a point, but who knows. We played some pretty good stuff for 24 minutes and lost control. If we play like that for 24 minutes again against wba we'll be up 3-0 but halftime. We need three points next weekend, and I think we'll get it convincingly. I hate etiCity and all that they stand for. It's all a scam, ruins football.
Some players had good days though. I think things looked promising for a bit.
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Did ok up until half time THEN GIFTED THEM them 2 goals.
Credit to us for keeping going, it could have got very embarrassing.
Many other teams will get the same treatment as us,still its not the end of the world.
Bring on the Baggies.
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Losing to them means nothing in the grander scheme of things, it's just a fixture to get out of the way. That said we gifted them two goals so didn't help ourselves. Perhaps Collins is more important to us that he's given credit for.
What is the grander scheme?
Our season, obviously.
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No shocks here, talksport were wanking over it and it was just another routine day. Although I'm not happy at the amount of goals conceded.
Let's look forward to smashing the tesco bags next week!
VTID
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In a few years, I think this particular period of Villa history will be one to gloss over -to just fast forward over and pretend like it never happened. See also large chunks of the early-mid noughties.
Getting tonked by a second string Citeh side is one thing. Getting tonked and so many Villa fans being largely indifferent to it is something else.
I know the state of the game in general is facked, that Milner and Ash turning it on for the Manc clubs is a bit of a sickner when - with a bit of foresight- they might still be lining up alongside other decent players at VP.
Even so, the extent to which we have gone so backward in just over 18 months is quite alarming.
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This was always going to be the real test, first quality side we have come up against and we lacked all over, our defence was shocking at times.
So forget the results we've got so far, the actual test is when we come up against a team of world class players after spending a sum we could only dream of? A team who will almost certainly finish in the top 4 and probably run other teams close for the championship?
Edit: Quite right, sorry Legion.
I haven't half had enough of some people on here seeming delighted whenever we lose, though, they can't wait to stick the boot in.
Complete rubbish. this is exactly the kind of team that tests the side, that shows the teams strengths and weaknesses. talking complete rubbish.
That shows the team’s strengths and weaknesses? I suppose it does, but what did we actually learn from today? That our central midfield is a bit lightweight compared with Toure and De Jong? That Balotelli is a bit too good for the likes of Hutton and Warnock? That all over the pitch we just aren’t as good as Citeh? You don’t say.
As others have said, it’s a sad indictment of the current state of football that we knew we would probably lose this game, and we did. We all know where our weaknesses are, today they were confirmed. We have strengths too, but against a side like that they count for very little. Even if our strongest XI played out of their skins Citeh have got enough quality on the pitch and on the bench to deal with it – they didn’t spend £300 zillion to lose at home to the likes of us.
Griping about today’s game is pointless. If you want to use it as a stick to beat McLeish or have a pop at any of the players, fine, but I’d say you should have a reality check before you give yourself an ulcer. The best thing we can all do is forget it and move on. Have a few drinks, enjoy your evening, and let’s look forward to a very sweet three points next week.
Of course you test yourself against any opposition that are better than you and that's exactly how you find out what works and what doesn't and its not having a pop at AM or the players because I'll bet AM is thinking precisely the same thing and as for reality check, the reality is we matched them ball for ball for the first 20 and they only just edged us for the first 45 for all there countless millions.
Said at half time that Man City where pacing themselves and looked capable of stepping up a gear come the 2nd half and so they did and although I agree about the in balance in the amount of money this side are capable of spending, doesn't meant for one second they are unbeatable, its exactly the teams above us that you do test yourself against and hopefully improve and learn, or are you suggesting that AM went into the game today thinking may as well give up as we are in for a right tanking here, he obviously set the team up to try win the game, and that's how we started.
Personally I think your exaggeration as to how good you think Man City actually are, but we exist in the same league we are 7 places below them and we should compete.
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Same old same old up there.
Missed the first twenty minutes as some bright spark had shut the A57 and brought Manchester to a halt.
The most entertaining part of the 1st half was the Man City fans fighting amoingst themselves. Their was no tempo from either side.
The second started with Emile missing a sitter and them going up the other end and scoring. Oh well.
Delph gives the ball away far to often, we missed Collins at the back and wee Barry until he came on.
Its the fixture I look forward to least, as we are always pap and get turned over.
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Did I hear that we scored the first goal against them at the United Stadium in 9 months? The only conclusion I drew from today is that English football is dying.
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Anybody reading anything into this game is a fool.
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Disappointed tonight, but not devastated. I've been expecting it all week, although I did go for an optimistic 2-2 prediction. I agree that we need to keep a sense of perspective, we aren't going to be competing with citeh at the very top of the table, and most teams will be on the wrong end of a hiding there this season. It is games like next week that we need to win.
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My reaction to this is...
Meh
I had no faith that we would get anything out of it.
Come to think of it, I can't say my faith in getting a result in any game is very strong. I'm starting to go into games assuming we are going to loose.
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Anybody reading anything into this game is a fool.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/15323658.stm
He must be a fool then.................................think he gets this bang on.
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Did I hear that we scored the first goal against them at the United Stadium in 9 months? The only conclusion I drew from today is that English football is dying.
It's dead.
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Did I hear that we scored the first goal against them at the United Stadium in 9 months? The only conclusion I drew from today is that English football is dying.
It's dead.
Certainly dying.....Thats for sure...
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Did I hear that we scored the first goal against them at the United Stadium in 9 months? The only conclusion I drew from today is that English football is dying.
It's dead.
Certainly dying.....Thats for sure...
It's turning into Scotland.
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Anybody reading anything into this game is a fool.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/15323658.stm
He must be a fool then.................................think he gets this bang on.
He's being paid to, but Alex, bless him, he really shouldn't bother.
All he needs to do is look back over the pasty twenty odd years. From being pissed on in the Kippax and Paul Walsh scoring, to Kindkladze waltzing passed all and sundry, with Joe bloody Royle as manager for goodness sake and Vassell of all people.... we're just shite at Man City.
The only way we'll win up there is if Joe Hart takes up boozing and Dion Dublin starts up front.
There is no merit in ever reading anything into a Villa performance at Man City. Or Manchester in general.
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Did I hear that we scored the first goal against them at the United Stadium in 9 months? The only conclusion I drew from today is that English football is dying.
It's dead.
Certainly dying.....Thats for sure...
It's turning into Scotland.
And as cold next week...............
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I watched it live over here and the first half we played well, I had a feeling Balotelli would score after he started winding up our fans. We should have scored from Gabby's effort and we did gift them two goals but it is what we all expected so lets speak no more of it. If I just had one wish it would be that Milner was still ours, such a class player whose head was understandably turned for stupid money, the game needs to change somehow but I don't think it will.
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such a class player whose head was understandably turned for stupid money
And nothing to do with the fact that he was going to play with far better players and win things?
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What was Balotelli's problem?
When he scored he was squaring up to the entire Villa travelling support.
Must have been a good song...
"You pt your left arm in, your left arm out..."
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I love Villa, and while it's frustrating I'm not trying not to go too overboard about the doom and gloom of the Premier League.
A few years ago we were saying the same about the top 4 that we are now about the top 6. You don't know what's around the corner, so I completely disagree with this defeatist 'what's the point' attitude amongst some of us tonight!
Ultimately, we're a work in progress, a new manager and a change of squad is always gonna result in this. Had MON gone in June 2010 we'd probably be a half decent side again, and while we're closer to that than being bad, inconsistency is to be expected.
We need a new centre back, a centre midfielder and a wide player to be a top 6 side again. Hopefully we've got them in Clark, Bannan and N'Zogbia/Albrighton, I'd imagine we'll know by next season regarding the youngsters and their impact on the current Villa side.
It'll probably be a long and boring season ahead, I just hope McLeish gets it right.
But keep the faith, 3 points against the Baggies next week will see us in the top 6 of the league again. It's not all bad.
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I think the Beeb review has it right, stating we were outclassed, and it was a comfortable win for Citeh.
We weren't bad for about 20 mins, but then sat back as though we had fulfilled the game plan to get an early goal.
Sadly Gabby's missed chance highlights the distance between him and a top class striker. Bent seems to be distracted by thoughts about which team he is moving to in January. The less said about Hutton and Warnock the better.
We just seem a functional team; we didn't play that bad, we just played to our potential against a team that were without a number of first teamers, but who were able to beat us at a canter.
The two teams we have beaten so far this season, sit in the bottom three which I think says a number of things about where Villa are.
I can't really see this as a transitional season anymore as our only future plans are still to ship out the players who are overpaid or who can bring in a profit. The problem with the latter of these is, who actually can we sell at a profit to generate funds in the future (apart from Bent and maybe Gabby)?
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such a class player whose head was understandably turned for stupid money
And nothing to do with the fact that he was going to play with far better players and win things?
I think when he left we were under the impression that we were still after good players and were going to be challenging for trophies, so it sort of felt like he was leaving just for the money even if that wasn't actually the case. Of course even at the height of Randy's spending we weren't signing players of the calibre Man City have been able to bring in.
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such a class player whose head was understandably turned for stupid money
And nothing to do with the fact that he was going to play with far better players and win things?
Fair point, but the reason those players were already there is due to lots of money.
To be honest I expected nothing out of this game and am unsurprised at the result. I'm not sure I want to fork out £40 for a ticket anymore either, not when it's all about bumbling around with the also-rans. It's just chucking good money after bad.
I get far more enjoyment out of Cricket these days, football and it's cost, coupled with the lack of competitiveness and the inability to hang on to your best players - due to the money - is sapping my interest. It's not a sport anymore, it's a cash cow, a gravy train for all manner of hangers on.
Meh.
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My reaction to this is...
Meh
I had no faith that we would get anything out of it.
Come to think of it, I can't say my faith in getting a result in any game is very strong. I'm starting to go into games assuming we are going to loose.
As this was the first on we've lost it suggests your judgement is not up to much.
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Has this thread involved the word 'predictable' yet?
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I'm usually a 'glass half-full' type of guy but if anybody thought at anytime during that game that we could get something out it, they were sadly mistaken.
Just because Man City failed to turn up for the first 20 minutes and Gabby forced an error from Lescott to get a chance shouldn't hide the fact that we were second best by a long way.
The first time we have played a decent side and the defence looked no better than last season's. I am not just blaming the defenders as defence starts from the front. The opposition always have the freedom of the park between the half way line and the edge of our penalty area. I wouldn't mind so much if we were playing a very attacking game and leaving gaps but we are playing dull and lifeless football.
If we are not going to be top 4 contenders, then at least play some decent football that gives some excitement. I never had much time for the 'West Ham way' when they were at their peak but I would willingly accept that way of playing for Villa now. Oh for the times of Little, Gray and Deehan.
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By the way, does anyone else recall the manager's quite worrying comments about playing Man City when he was a pundit for the Spain v Scotland match the other night? Think his expressions whilst talking about Silva et al had the word 'defeat' for today's game stamped all over it.
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I predicted we would lose 4-1 in the pre match thread.
Really couldn't summon up much enthusiasm to watch this so went to Walsall PNE instead which was a decent game.
I think it's a case of just move on and hopefully get a response against Baggies next week.
Let's face it, we usually lose up there even in the days when City were crap and had no money.
Interested a few people saying things like we put in Clark and conceded 4. Well we conceded 4 with Cuellar and Collins at the back up there last season...
Whatever formation McLeish would've come up with today, we'd have lost imo.
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The problem with the latter of these is, who actually can we sell at a profit to generate funds in the future (apart from Bent and maybe Gabby)?
If you are forced to sell players to generate funds, you do not fill your squad with over paid ageing players, you develop young players either from within or from clubs lower down the league. You keep the best if you can and move on the rest at a profit.
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Sad but due to the game being killed by Sky and Scudamore, games against Man Utd, Chelsea and Citeh have to be endured in the hope that the inevitable defeat doesn't damage confidence too much for those other games of genuine importance.
Today had the air of an FA cup tie when a lower divison side plays a top flight team, just without the away fans viewing it as a day out.
We did ok considering but today pretty much encapsulates why i'm losing interest in football more with every passing year. As predicatable as an election in North Korea.
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We don't have one player that would get into their team, everyone of their players would be an automatic start for us. It's terrible that all i'm hoping for is that Liverpool don't make the top four and we don't get relegated.
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It doesn't help when the MOTD team refer to a petulant wanker like Balotelli as a 'character'
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Not for the first time in the last few months my love affair with football died a bit more today.
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I do wish people would stop hiding behind the money angle. we were piss poor as we've been a few times this season - so they've got the personnel to capitalise on our mistakes and bad play but when we were rolling in it not so long ago, i'm not sure the clubs with a fraction of our spend were claiming it was pointless turning up and we were killing football. Heart, discipline and concentation cost nowt.
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I do wish people would stop hiding behind the money angle. we were piss poor as we've been a few times this season - so they've got the personnel to capitalise on our mistakes and bad play but when we were rolling in it not so long ago, i'm not sure the clubs with a fraction of our spend were claiming it was pointless turning up and we were killing football. Heart, discipline and concentation cost nowt.
And putting a side together that can contend costs £400,000,000, as seen today.
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Highlight of the day was a pint costing only £1.92 at the Oyster Bar!
City really are the new Chelsea; arrogant supporters. What were their fans doing fighting stewards in the first half?; saw one get smacked four of five times, strange.
Decent meat and potato pie at half-time.
Couldn't even forget about the game this evening; went to a 40th Birthday Party at the Shrewsbury Town ground to be confronted by a mural of Joe Hart on the stairs leading up to the gents!!
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I do wish people would stop hiding behind the money angle. we were piss poor as we've been a few times this season - so they've got the personnel to capitalise on our mistakes and bad play but when we were rolling in it not so long ago, i'm not sure the clubs with a fraction of our spend were claiming it was pointless turning up and we were killing football. Heart, discipline and concentation cost nowt.
And putting a side together that can contend costs £400,000,000, as seen today.
so that's the best we can play? I'm sorry Citeh may be a good side but we were complete arse. Bloody side assembled for 40 quid would would have caused us trouble today.
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We weren't as shite today as when we played them last season. That's all I choose to remember of this game, now let us never speak of it again.
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I do wish people would stop hiding behind the money angle. we were piss poor as we've been a few times this season - so they've got the personnel to capitalise on our mistakes and bad play but when we were rolling in it not so long ago, i'm not sure the clubs with a fraction of our spend were claiming it was pointless turning up and we were killing football. Heart, discipline and concentation cost nowt.
And putting a side together that can contend costs £400,000,000, as seen today.
so that's the best we can play? I'm sorry Citeh may be a good side but we were complete arse. Bloody side assembled for 40 quid would would have caused us trouble today.
Hyperbole cranked up to 11, Greg? I agree that the football is shite, but I'd be more concerned if we played like that against Albion next week than against Man City. It was an expected result, just move on from it.
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WellSWell first proper test and we were well short.
I am astonished by Ecks post match comments. He accepted the defeat the thrashing as inevitable. This is poor piss poor attitude. The man needs to realise he is now managing Aston Villa and for us to lose a game 4-1 any where is a disgrace.
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Looking at the game from Man City's point of view: How little effort could they put into this match and still win (comfortably)? The answer was: very little. They'll probably be pleased with that knowing that they can stroll into home wins against 50 % of the sides in EPL this season.
Looking at the game from our point of view: was there ever any chance that we could get anything from the match? Well, if we ddn't think so, then we won't. Maybe Gerard was right all along.
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WellSWell first proper test and we were well short.
I am astonished by Ecks post match comments. He accepted the defeat the thrashing as inevitable. This is poor piss poor attitude. The man needs to realise he is now managing Aston Villa and for us to lose a game 4-1 any where is a disgrace.
Bloody hell. Get a grip. The defeat was inevitable. Most of us on here knew it. Doesn't mean we like it, just that we're realistic about our current situation. I said earlier, Man City didn't spend £400m to lose at home to the likes of us. I think Eck knows full well that he is now managing Aston Villa, and he's realistic too about what we can achieve at the moment. To say getting thrashed by a team light years ahead of us is a disgrace is a massive over-reaction. You seem to have a very lofty view of our place in the big scheme of things; sorry to break it to you, but we have no divine right to not get thrashed from time to time, never have had. I'd go as far as to say that outside of Villa Park we're a largely uninspiring and irrelevant outfit, and have been for most of my lifetime. I don't like it any more than you do, but to imply that our club is above such humblings is bombastic nonsense. I'd advise you to go to bed and calm down.
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I think his point was that it's the manager's job to be positive and getting the players to believe they can compete even if he doesn't think so himself.
Thankfully there hasn't been too much wanking over Milner's goal and how nice of him it was not to celebrate. Inevitable he'd have one of his few decent games for them in 15 months against us I suppose.
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This was always going to be the real test, first quality side we have come up against and we lacked all over, our defence was shocking at times.
So forget the results we've got so far,
I certainly haven't forgotten the 5 draws.
Anyway, today's game was entirely as expected. Even resting a no of players Citeh were always going to be a class above.
What did annoy me though was the comical defending at times.
Need to forget about this one, and try and take the promising parts of the QPR and Wigan games forward to next week, which is looking like a must win.
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I thought we did alright today in the first half especially. Pretty obvious we will struggle for goals this year. On the goals we conceded, Darren Bent was at fault for the two set piece ones. Awful attempted clearance for the first header and lost Kompany for the other. To be fair I thought Given could have done better with that one. Warnock's fuck up for the second killed the game and spoiled an otherwise decent performance by him. Milner's one was unstoppable.
There were positives. Hutton was ok I thought. Dunne was good. Clark was caught out of position a bit but will learn a lot from today. Petrov did his best in midfield. Delph and Ireland had good first halves but disappeared after the break. Bent was hopeless but not his type of game to be fair. Gabby did his best with little support.
Big game for Ireland next weekend. He needs to get far more involved than the odd nice touch. Bannan was demanding the ball far more when he came on. Very little again from Nzogbia and Albrighton which is worrying.
The gap between the haves and have nots is ridiculous. That is what today proved. Other than that we are a very average side. One of about 14 in the EPL. Depends on injuries, Gabby and Bent gelling and at least one of Ireland or Nzogbia hitting a serious run of form if we are to top that particular league.
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One incident that did catch my eye in the second half was Petrov failing to keep up with Barry, how slow is that.
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Highlight of the day was a pint costing only £1.92 at the Oyster Bar!
City really are the new Chelsea; arrogant supporters. What were their fans doing fighting stewards in the first half?; saw one get smacked four of five times, strange.
Decent meat and potato pie at half-time.
Couldn't even forget about the game this evening; went to a 40th Birthday Party at the Shrewsbury Town ground to be confronted by a mural of Joe Hart on the stairs leading up to the gents!!
A steward pushed an old man over that's why it kicked off
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Apart from Warnock's fuck up for the goal I thought he looked very dangerous and I said to my missus early he on that he looked a threat to score... then he hit that volley straight at Hart. I was impressed with his overlap.
That surface was slippery as; we didn't seem to have long enough studs on our boots.
City made a statement against Spurs and us, and I think they were well up for both games to show that they have surpassed us to go onto the next level.
I am just so jealous of Man City's depth on their playing list.
Our supporters were a bit stupid to wind up Balotelli: if you ignore him he has no power.
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I'll say one thing that is an indictment of modern football. When a team with 9 internationals in its starting line up gets beaten 4-1 and its fans largely just expected it, it means there is something wrong.
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Obviously disappointed, as much with the sheer predictability of it all as anything else.
However, I didnt see anything yesterday that a cash injection of approximately £500-£700million wouldnt be able to easily address.
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I didn't expect to get a result, it appeared that the players didn't either.
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The most predictable outcome in the history of the game. Greece should have put every Euro it could find down the back of the settee on this one down at Paddy Power. Let's move on to the next one, and hope the game implodes sooner rather than later, so we can all start from scratch and have a league with competition.
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As a City fan, I'm interested in the comments on here particularly as regards the death of the game etc etc. I was saying exactly the same before we won the lottery in 2008. How is it different now that City have money except that there are now 5 or 6 teams that can compete rather than the previous 3 ?
Yep, we've spent £*** [insert your own made-up figure here] billions of pounds but you have to to join the Sky 4. It has always been a cartel for goodness sake and no-one, but no-one, is going to join that self-interested club from a standing start without spending that sort of money. Having spent our way into the reckoning you'll see that we no longer have to spend more each year than say, United, to stay there.
City players are "mercenaries" ? well knock me down with a feather, who'd have suspected that professional footballers were motivated by money ? As for the salaries, we, and any other club lucky enough to find itself in our position, have to pay high basic salaries because we simply can't compete yet (and possibly never will) with the worldwide personal sponsorship and image rights deals that Sky4 players get as soon as they sign on the dotted line.
Sure the Premier League is all about money, it has been for 19 years which is why only rich clubs have won it (and, in the two exceptional cases, nearly bankrupted themselves in the process) but we didn't light that particular fire.
As far as Villa are concerned. It's difficult to say anything encouraging from yesterday's performance without sounding patronising but you have stood by them in worse times than these, and with worse teams than this, by a long way and I know for certain that the majority of you will continue to do so because that's what you do. The day before our investors took over, we survived only on hope and had no idea what was around the corner for us. Neither do you. Just hang in there and do what we did for 35 years, take what enjoyment you can, where you can. Things change, something will turn up.
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As a City fan, I'm interested in the comments on here particularly as regards the death of the game etc etc. I was saying exactly the same before we won the lottery in 2008. How is it different now that City have money except that there are now 5 or 6 teams that can compete rather than the previous 3 ?
Yep, we've spent £*** [insert your own made-up figure here] billions of pounds but you have to to join the Sky 4. It has always been a cartel for goodness sake and no-one, but no-one, is going to join that self-interested club from a standing start without spending that sort of money. Having spent our way into the reckoning you'll see that we no longer have to spend more each year than say, United, to stay there.
City players are "mercenaries" ? well knock me down with a feather, who'd have suspected that professional footballers were motivated by money ? As for the salaries, we, and any other club lucky enough to find itself in our position, have to pay high basic salaries because we simply can't compete yet (and possibly never will) with the worldwide personal sponsorship and image rights deals that Sky4 players get as soon as they sign on the dotted line.
Sure the Premier League is all about money, it has been for 19 years which is why only rich clubs have won it (and, in the two exceptional cases, nearly bankrupted themselves in the process) but we didn't light that particular fire.
As far as Villa are concerned. It's difficult to say anything encouraging from yesterday's performance without sounding patronising but you have stood by them in worse times than these, and with worse teams than this, by a long way and I know for certain that the majority of you will continue to do so because that's what you do. The day before our investors took over, we survived only on hope and had no idea what was around the corner for us. Neither do you. Just hang in there and do what we did for 35 years, take what enjoyment you can, where you can. Things change, something will turn up.
I, for one, would hate for us to be given the mega-bucks in the style your lot have been given them.
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WellSWell first proper test and we were well short.
I am astonished by Ecks post match comments. He accepted the defeat the thrashing as inevitable. This is poor piss poor attitude. The man needs to realise he is now managing Aston Villa and for us to lose a game 4-1 any where is a disgrace.
I'm not sure where you read that but it's not what i read. He's said in a couple of papers i've read this morning that the defending was shambolic and they'll be working on it on the training ground next week. He was'nt happy with the 2nd half perfomance either.
It's always disapointing to lose, especially 4-1 but it's our first defeat against a very good side so i'm not going to cry over it. It's how we react next week that's the important thing.
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As a City fan, I'm interested in the comments on here particularly as regards the death of the game etc etc. I was saying exactly the same before we won the lottery in 2008. How is it different now that City have money except that there are now 5 or 6 teams that can compete rather than the previous 3 ?
Yep, we've spent £*** [insert your own made-up figure here] billions of pounds but you have to to join the Sky 4. It has always been a cartel for goodness sake and no-one, but no-one, is going to join that self-interested club from a standing start without spending that sort of money. Having spent our way into the reckoning you'll see that we no longer have to spend more each year than say, United, to stay there.
City players are "mercenaries" ? well knock me down with a feather, who'd have suspected that professional footballers were motivated by money ? As for the salaries, we, and any other club lucky enough to find itself in our position, have to pay high basic salaries because we simply can't compete yet (and possibly never will) with the worldwide personal sponsorship and image rights deals that Sky4 players get as soon as they sign on the dotted line.
Sure the Premier League is all about money, it has been for 19 years which is why only rich clubs have won it (and, in the two exceptional cases, nearly bankrupted themselves in the process) but we didn't light that particular fire.
As far as Villa are concerned. It's difficult to say anything encouraging from yesterday's performance without sounding patronising but you have stood by them in worse times than these, and with worse teams than this, by a long way and I know for certain that the majority of you will continue to do so because that's what you do. The day before our investors took over, we survived only on hope and had no idea what was around the corner for us. Neither do you. Just hang in there and do what we did for 35 years, take what enjoyment you can, where you can. Things change, something will turn up.
The only problem i have with Man City is that a lot of their fans have developed a Man Utd type arrogance. I supose it's understandable given that they've lived in their neighbours shadow for so long, but it dose'nt make it a very nice place to go to anymore.
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As a City fan, I'm interested in the comments on here particularly as regards the death of the game etc etc. I was saying exactly the same before we won the lottery in 2008. How is it different now that City have money except that there are now 5 or 6 teams that can compete rather than the previous 3 ?
Yep, we've spent £*** [insert your own made-up figure here] billions of pounds but you have to to join the Sky 4. It has always been a cartel for goodness sake and no-one, but no-one, is going to join that self-interested club from a standing start without spending that sort of money. Having spent our way into the reckoning you'll see that we no longer have to spend more each year than say, United, to stay there.
City players are "mercenaries" ? well knock me down with a feather, who'd have suspected that professional footballers were motivated by money ? As for the salaries, we, and any other club lucky enough to find itself in our position, have to pay high basic salaries because we simply can't compete yet (and possibly never will) with the worldwide personal sponsorship and image rights deals that Sky4 players get as soon as they sign on the dotted line.
Sure the Premier League is all about money, it has been for 19 years which is why only rich clubs have won it (and, in the two exceptional cases, nearly bankrupted themselves in the process) but we didn't light that particular fire.
As far as Villa are concerned. It's difficult to say anything encouraging from yesterday's performance without sounding patronising but you have stood by them in worse times than these, and with worse teams than this, by a long way and I know for certain that the majority of you will continue to do so because that's what you do. The day before our investors took over, we survived only on hope and had no idea what was around the corner for us. Neither do you. Just hang in there and do what we did for 35 years, take what enjoyment you can, where you can. Things change, something will turn up.
The only problem i have with Man City is that a lot of their fans have developed a Man Utd type arrogance. I supose it's understandable given that they've lived in their neighbours shadow for so long, but it dose'nt make it a very nice place to go to anymore.
Hmmm. That, of course, is a matter of external perception which is all in the eye of the observer. Certainly it is true to say that, being in the lucky position we are in, of course expectations change in that you can't help yourself from expecting to win most games rather than hoping you win some games. Not much anyone can do about that.
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As a City fan, I'm interested in the comments on here particularly as regards the death of the game etc etc. I was saying exactly the same before we won the lottery in 2008. How is it different now that City have money except that there are now 5 or 6 teams that can compete rather than the previous 3 ?
Yep, we've spent £*** [insert your own made-up figure here] billions of pounds but you have to to join the Sky 4. It has always been a cartel for goodness sake and no-one, but no-one, is going to join that self-interested club from a standing start without spending that sort of money. Having spent our way into the reckoning you'll see that we no longer have to spend more each year than say, United, to stay there.
City players are "mercenaries" ? well knock me down with a feather, who'd have suspected that professional footballers were motivated by money ? As for the salaries, we, and any other club lucky enough to find itself in our position, have to pay high basic salaries because we simply can't compete yet (and possibly never will) with the worldwide personal sponsorship and image rights deals that Sky4 players get as soon as they sign on the dotted line.
Sure the Premier League is all about money, it has been for 19 years which is why only rich clubs have won it (and, in the two exceptional cases, nearly bankrupted themselves in the process) but we didn't light that particular fire.
As far as Villa are concerned. It's difficult to say anything encouraging from yesterday's performance without sounding patronising but you have stood by them in worse times than these, and with worse teams than this, by a long way and I know for certain that the majority of you will continue to do so because that's what you do. The day before our investors took over, we survived only on hope and had no idea what was around the corner for us. Neither do you. Just hang in there and do what we did for 35 years, take what enjoyment you can, where you can. Things change, something will turn up.
Agree with all of that.
City aren't killing football anymore than Chelsea did eight years ago or Blackburn did sixteen years ago.
-
Deano,
What would your views on an American style salary cap being introduced into football be?
It definitely seems to work in their sports as there are far more competitive games seen each week compared to the premier league, serie a, liga bbva etc etc.
It would definitely take some ironing out, but I believe it would be the best way for the sport to move forward.
-
I do wish people would stop hiding behind the money angle. we were piss poor as we've been a few times this season - so they've got the personnel to capitalise on our mistakes and bad play but when we were rolling in it not so long ago, i'm not sure the clubs with a fraction of our spend were claiming it was pointless turning up and we were killing football. Heart, discipline and concentation cost nowt.
And putting a side together that can contend costs £400,000,000, as seen today.
so that's the best we can play? I'm sorry Citeh may be a good side but we were complete arse. Bloody side assembled for 40 quid would would have caused us trouble today.
Hyperbole cranked up to 11, Greg? I agree that the football is shite, but I'd be more concerned if we played like that against Albion next week than against Man City. It was an expected result, just move on from it.
If its hyperbole to say we played shit then its something i share with the manager who says people would be "appalled" by the goals we gave away. I prefer that to the complacent attitude of yourself that "we would have lost to Citeh anyway"
-
WellSWell first proper test and we were well short.
I am astonished by Ecks post match comments. He accepted the defeat the thrashing as inevitable. This is poor piss poor attitude. The man needs to realise he is now managing Aston Villa and for us to lose a game 4-1 any where is a disgrace.
Where did you read anything like that?
All I've seen is him saying our defending was shambolic and that he's disappointed to lose.
-
It's not City killing the game, but the way they're going about getting success is the extreme consequence of the way football's been going for 20-odd years, if not longer. There will always be clubs richer than others, but the disparity is getting embarrassing now.
-
As a City fan, I'm interested in the comments on here particularly as regards the death of the game etc etc. I was saying exactly the same before we won the lottery in 2008. How is it different now that City have money except that there are now 5 or 6 teams that can compete rather than the previous 3 ?
Yep, we've spent £*** [insert your own made-up figure here] billions of pounds but you have to to join the Sky 4. It has always been a cartel for goodness sake and no-one, but no-one, is going to join that self-interested club from a standing start without spending that sort of money. Having spent our way into the reckoning you'll see that we no longer have to spend more each year than say, United, to stay there.
City players are "mercenaries" ? well knock me down with a feather, who'd have suspected that professional footballers were motivated by money ? As for the salaries, we, and any other club lucky enough to find itself in our position, have to pay high basic salaries because we simply can't compete yet (and possibly never will) with the worldwide personal sponsorship and image rights deals that Sky4 players get as soon as they sign on the dotted line.
Sure the Premier League is all about money, it has been for 19 years which is why only rich clubs have won it (and, in the two exceptional cases, nearly bankrupted themselves in the process) but we didn't light that particular fire.
As far as Villa are concerned. It's difficult to say anything encouraging from yesterday's performance without sounding patronising but you have stood by them in worse times than these, and with worse teams than this, by a long way and I know for certain that the majority of you will continue to do so because that's what you do. The day before our investors took over, we survived only on hope and had no idea what was around the corner for us. Neither do you. Just hang in there and do what we did for 35 years, take what enjoyment you can, where you can. Things change, something will turn up.
Agree with all of that.
City aren't killing football anymore than Chelsea did eight years ago or Blackburn did sixteen years ago.
The difference being that city are buying up a vast squad of players and paying them huge amounts
of money which noone else can compete with or sustain.These players which for the most part
would be the best players at the majority of clubs rot and waste their careers playing a bit part.
-
Deano,
What would your views on an American style salary cap being introduced into football be?
It definitely seems to work in their sports as there are far more competitive games seen each week compared to the premier league, serie a, liga bbva etc etc.
It would definitely take some ironing out, but I believe it would be the best way for the sport to move forward.
Like every reasonable fan in the country, I dream of a level playing field but a salary cap would have to include so many other variables as to make it impossible to implement. As I say above, the salary packages that are bandied about don't include image rights and personal sponsorship deals which, at certain clubs cannot currently be matched anywhere and would be very, very difficult to regulate. From a purely monetary point of view, if you could get the same salary at West Ham or Man United most people would choose the latter regardless. So unless you have a draft system too, they'd still end up with the best players.
It's hard to see any way out of the impasse that the G14 clubs inflicted on us when they formed the European league (in all but name) for the simple reason that they control the game and there is no room for sentiment in the business world. from a City perspective, whatever people think it's great to be tweaking the tails of the clubs who thought they have a divine right to continual success due to historical success at a fixed moment in time (1992) and they do not like it one bit.
As far as the idea of true competition is concerned it is, very very sad that business has put us in this position.
-
Although the Man City fan makes a good case, the fact is that someone with unlimited wealth has turned up and is literally buying all the top prizes in football like it was some casual purchase. How can that be good for the game? Whatever Man City win now, it won't mean anything. No managerial genius, no team building, no real achievement. Just throw the cash on the table and collect the trophies.
-
It's not City killing the game, but the way they're going about getting success is the extreme consequence of the way football's been going for 20-odd years, if not longer. There will always be clubs richer than others, but the disparity is getting embarrassing now.
The situation in a nutshell. Football clubs as corporations, rather than sporting institutions. Domestic leagues, driven by huge revenues, have become dominated by elite clubs who garner support from emerging markets. Increasingly, international championships such as the world cup are becoming a side show. Sport is being driven out of football and replaced with finance. Man City are the latest phase.
-
Oh well. Move on & beat WBA next weekend.
-
Deano,
What would your views on an American style salary cap being introduced into football be?
It definitely seems to work in their sports as there are far more competitive games seen each week compared to the premier league, serie a, liga bbva etc etc.
It would definitely take some ironing out, but I believe it would be the best way for the sport to move forward.
Like every reasonable fan in the country, I dream of a level playing field but a salary cap would have to include so many other variables as to make it impossible to implement. As I say above, the salary packages that are bandied about don't include image rights and personal sponsorship deals which, at certain clubs cannot currently be matched anywhere and would be very, very difficult to regulate. From a purely monetary point of view, if you could get the same salary at West Ham or Man United most people would choose the latter regardless. So unless you have a draft system too, they'd still end up with the best players.
It's hard to see any way out of the impasse that the G14 clubs inflicted on us when they formed the European league (in all but name) for the simple reason that they control the game and there is no room for sentiment in the business world. from a City perspective, whatever people think it's great to be tweaking the tails of the clubs who thought they have a divine right to continual success due to historical success at a fixed moment in time (1992) and they do not like it one bit.
As far as the idea of true competition is concerned it is, very very sad that business has put us in this position.
Good points there.
Obviously a salary cap would never be allowed or entertained by the elite level clubs or Fifa / Uefa who thrive on the money such clubs and ridiculous sponsorship levels bring in. It would be possible, but it would take a drastic reconstruction of the game from the top level down. An opportunity was definitely missed for this approach pre premiership, when the financial differences between clubs were nowhere near as colossal.
At the moment though, I think a lot of the fans of clubs such as Villa, Everton, Newcastle etc, find it very difficult to get interested in the game, as their club have no chance of anything more than mid table boredom without the investment of mega rich businessmen looking for a new toy.
-
Although the Man City fan makes a good case, the fact is that someone with unlimited wealth has turned up and is literally buying all the top prizes in football like it was some casual purchase. How can that be good for the game? Whatever Man City win now, it won't mean anything. No managerial genius, no team building, no real achievement. Just throw the cash on the table and collect the trophies.
Nice thought, but people only remember the trophies and not how they did it. Take Ferguson's first title, spent a fortune in those days on the likes of pallister, bruce, Ince, Keane as well as all the big money purchases that failed to make the grade - probably would top Citeh's spending if you tried to buy the same type of players now.. Does anyone say ManU bought the league?
-
Although the Man City fan makes a good case, the fact is that someone with unlimited wealth has turned up and is literally buying all the top prizes in football like it was some casual purchase. How can that be good for the game? Whatever Man City win now, it won't mean anything. No managerial genius, no team building, no real achievement. Just throw the cash on the table and collect the trophies.
Nice thought, but people only remember the trophies and not how they did it. Take Ferguson's first title, spent a fortune in those days on the likes of pallister, bruce, Ince, Keane as well as all the big money purchases that failed to make the grade - probably would top Citeh's spending if you tried to buy the same type of players now.. Does anyone say ManU bought the league?
I think that most would attribute ManU's success to a combination of having the money to buy top quality players, and being lucky enough to have an outstanding set of youngsters coming through at the same time.
The outstanding youngsters part will almost certainly never happen again to any club in the current climate.
-
Although the Man City fan makes a good case, the fact is that someone with unlimited wealth has turned up and is literally buying all the top prizes in football like it was some casual purchase. How can that be good for the game? Whatever Man City win now, it won't mean anything. No managerial genius, no team building, no real achievement. Just throw the cash on the table and collect the trophies.
Nice thought, but people only remember the trophies and not how they did it. Take Ferguson's first title, spent a fortune in those days on the likes of pallister, bruce, Ince, Keane as well as all the big money purchases that failed to make the grade - probably would top Citeh's spending if you tried to buy the same type of players now.. Does anyone say ManU bought the league?
I think that most would attribute ManU's success to a combination of having the money to buy top quality players, and being lucky enough to have an outstanding set of youngsters coming through at the same time.
their first title was done with no youngsters - they basically bought a PL winning team - no different from Citeh,
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WellSWell first proper test and we were well short.
I am astonished by Ecks post match comments. He accepted the defeat the thrashing as inevitable. This is poor piss poor attitude. The man needs to realise he is now managing Aston Villa and for us to lose a game 4-1 any where is a disgrace.
Where did you read anything like that?
All I've seen is him saying our defending was shambolic and that he's disappointed to lose.
WellSWell first proper test and we were well short.
I am astonished by Ecks post match comments. He accepted the defeat the thrashing as inevitable. This is poor piss poor attitude. The man needs to realise he is now managing Aston Villa and for us to lose a game 4-1 any where is a disgrace.
I'm not sure where you read that but it's not what i read. He's said in a couple of papers i've read this morning that the defending was shambolic and they'll be working on it on the training ground next week. He was'nt happy with the 2nd half perfomance either.
It's always disapointing to lose, especially 4-1 but it's our first defeat against a very good side so i'm not going to cry over it. It's how we react next week that's the important thing.
If you listen to his post match interview ob SSN that is the message that comes across. Words may not be exact.
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Although the Man City fan makes a good case, the fact is that someone with unlimited wealth has turned up and is literally buying all the top prizes in football like it was some casual purchase. How can that be good for the game? Whatever Man City win now, it won't mean anything. No managerial genius, no team building, no real achievement. Just throw the cash on the table and collect the trophies.
Nice thought, but people only remember the trophies and not how they did it. Take Ferguson's first title, spent a fortune in those days on the likes of pallister, bruce, Ince, Keane as well as all the big money purchases that failed to make the grade - probably would top Citeh's spending if you tried to buy the same type of players now.. Does anyone say ManU bought the league?
I think that most would attribute ManU's success to a combination of having the money to buy top quality players, and being lucky enough to have an outstanding set of youngsters coming through at the same time.
their first title was done with no youngsters - they basically bought a PL winning team - no different from Citeh,
Giggs was definitely a major part of their team in 92/93, although I take your overall point.
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Although the Man City fan makes a good case, the fact is that someone with unlimited wealth has turned up and is literally buying all the top prizes in football like it was some casual purchase. How can that be good for the game? Whatever Man City win now, it won't mean anything. No managerial genius, no team building, no real achievement. Just throw the cash on the table and collect the trophies.
Nice thought, but people only remember the trophies and not how they did it. Take Ferguson's first title, spent a fortune in those days on the likes of pallister, bruce, Ince, Keane as well as all the big money purchases that failed to make the grade - probably would top Citeh's spending if you tried to buy the same type of players now.. Does anyone say ManU bought the league?
I think that most would attribute ManU's success to a combination of having the money to buy top quality players, and being lucky enough to have an outstanding set of youngsters coming through at the same time.
their first title was done with no youngsters - they basically bought a PL winning team - no different from Citeh,
Giggs was definitely a major part of their team in 92/93, although I take your overall point.
schmeical
steve bruce
Irwin
pallister
parker
ferguson
giggs
Ince
kancleskis
phelan
sharpe
cantona
dublin
Hughes
mclair
wallace
webb
yep. always forget giggs was a bit older than the likes of Beckham
Still that squad taking out giggs, sharpe and ferguson, what it would cost in 2011 doesn't bear thinking about.
For instance Pallister world or british record fee for a defender... whats the record currently?
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I'll say one thing that is an indictment of modern football. When a team with 9 internationals in its starting line up gets beaten 4-1 and its fans largely just expected it, it means there is something wrong.
There are two things wrong. One is the financial disparity that is eradicating fair and honest competition out of our football. This will inevitably make the game in this country unsustainable for majority of the clubs and will probably lead to our top 4/6 clubs joining a combined European League.
The second is that attitude of players and supporters.
I can not understand fans on here and else where who have this "it's not a disgrace to lose heavily to xxxx" attitude. Obviously we have all been brow beaten
What's more worrying is that all other team's players including ours are actually OK with getting beaten at City, manu and Chelsea. This may be that these teams have mentally destroyed the opposition before the match starts or modern players just look up to the mega rich superstars and all they care about is swapping , well not swapping, but getting their shirt at the end of the match.
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Although the Man City fan makes a good case, the fact is that someone with unlimited wealth has turned up and is literally buying all the top prizes in football like it was some casual purchase. How can that be good for the game? Whatever Man City win now, it won't mean anything. No managerial genius, no team building, no real achievement. Just throw the cash on the table and collect the trophies.
Nice thought, but people only remember the trophies and not how they did it. Take Ferguson's first title, spent a fortune in those days on the likes of pallister, bruce, Ince, Keane as well as all the big money purchases that failed to make the grade - probably would top Citeh's spending if you tried to buy the same type of players now.. Does anyone say ManU bought the league?
I do! And Blackburn and Chelsea. With the notable exception of Wenger using his links with France to cream off their best young talent, every Premier League title winning team has been bought. Go back to the days of Liverpool being a force and they were buying it too by paying out wages the rest of us couldn't match.
The game, in my opinion, needs huge reform and a levelling of the playing field. Every club should have the same financial budget and wage limit for starters - that would bring an element of genuine skill and judgement back into the game. If a rule was added that fifty per-cent of a squad had to be local players that would restore a whole lot more local pride and support in clubs, too. It might even go some way to putting an end to glory-hunting.
Judging by the empty seats at Man City yesterday it would seem that buying trophies doesn't necessarily fire the imagination of all City supporters either. Deep down I'm sure many of them know all too well that it's a farce.
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I'll say one thing that is an indictment of modern football. When a team with 9 internationals in its starting line up gets beaten 4-1 and its fans largely just expected it, it means there is something wrong.
There are two things wrong. One is the financial disparity that is eradicating fair and honest competition out of our football
When was there a time when there wasn't 'financial disparity' between some clubs and other clubs?
When we were spending millions and millions of pounds a couple of years ago, were we ruining things for the likes of Wigan and Bolton?
If not, it seems a bit unreasonable for us to be whinging just because there's now someone much richer out there.
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As a City fan, I'm interested in the comments on here particularly as regards the death of the game etc etc. I was saying exactly the same before we won the lottery in 2008. How is it different now that City have money except that there are now 5 or 6 teams that can compete rather than the previous 3 ?
Yep, we've spent £*** [insert your own made-up figure here] billions of pounds but you have to to join the Sky 4. It has always been a cartel for goodness sake and no-one, but no-one, is going to join that self-interested club from a standing start without spending that sort of money. Having spent our way into the reckoning you'll see that we no longer have to spend more each year than say, United, to stay there.
City players are "mercenaries" ? well knock me down with a feather, who'd have suspected that professional footballers were motivated by money ? As for the salaries, we, and any other club lucky enough to find itself in our position, have to pay high basic salaries because we simply can't compete yet (and possibly never will) with the worldwide personal sponsorship and image rights deals that Sky4 players get as soon as they sign on the dotted line.
Sure the Premier League is all about money, it has been for 19 years which is why only rich clubs have won it (and, in the two exceptional cases, nearly bankrupted themselves in the process) but we didn't light that particular fire.
As far as Villa are concerned. It's difficult to say anything encouraging from yesterday's performance without sounding patronising but you have stood by them in worse times than these, and with worse teams than this, by a long way and I know for certain that the majority of you will continue to do so because that's what you do. The day before our investors took over, we survived only on hope and had no idea what was around the corner for us. Neither do you. Just hang in there and do what we did for 35 years, take what enjoyment you can, where you can. Things change, something will turn up.
Agree with all of that.
City aren't killing football anymore than Chelsea did eight years ago or Blackburn did sixteen years ago.
No, but it's magnified it to a large degree. I don't have anything against City having the cash, but what it's shown us is how far behind everyone else is from Man U/Chelsea. City have had to spend hundreds of millions of pounds to regularly crack the top four, no one else is in that position and it just further highlights what it takes to become contenders. We had a good side a couple of seasons ago, but had our best players plucked from us by sides that could throw money at them. Look at the England midfield the other night; Young, Milner, Barry and Downing at one point. You're unable to build a team anymore, the chance to compete is being nullified by the money being spunked at players. The inability to compete at the top is making football a boring expense for fans of clubs like us and Everton, say. Our gates are down this season for a few reasons and I think that the realisation that the league is a closed shop is one of them.
I blame Jimmy Hill :P
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I do wish people would stop hiding behind the money angle. we were piss poor as we've been a few times this season - so they've got the personnel to capitalise on our mistakes and bad play but when we were rolling in it not so long ago, i'm not sure the clubs with a fraction of our spend were claiming it was pointless turning up and we were killing football. Heart, discipline and concentation cost nowt.
And putting a side together that can contend costs £400,000,000, as seen today.
so that's the best we can play? I'm sorry Citeh may be a good side but we were complete arse. Bloody side assembled for 40 quid would would have caused us trouble today.
Hyperbole cranked up to 11, Greg? I agree that the football is shite, but I'd be more concerned if we played like that against Albion next week than against Man City. It was an expected result, just move on from it.
If its hyperbole to say we played shit then its something i share with the manager who says people would be "appalled" by the goals we gave away. I prefer that to the complacent attitude of yourself that "we would have lost to Citeh anyway"
Saying that a side put together for £40 would have competed with City more than the Villa did? That's hyperbole I reckon. I'm pissed off with a couple of the goals, but this is a fixture we shouldn't be looking at to test ourselves in, it's daft. We're not on a level playing field, we should be looking at performances against Newcastle and Everton for instance.
-
Although the Man City fan makes a good case, the fact is that someone with unlimited wealth has turned up and is literally buying all the top prizes in football like it was some casual purchase. How can that be good for the game? Whatever Man City win now, it won't mean anything. No managerial genius, no team building, no real achievement. Just throw the cash on the table and collect the trophies.
Nice thought, but people only remember the trophies and not how they did it. Take Ferguson's first title, spent a fortune in those days on the likes of pallister, bruce, Ince, Keane as well as all the big money purchases that failed to make the grade - probably would top Citeh's spending if you tried to buy the same type of players now.. Does anyone say ManU bought the league?
I do! And Blackburn and Chelsea. With the notable exception of Wenger using his links with France to cream off their best young talent, every Premier League title winning team has been bought. Go back to the days of Liverpool being a force and they were buying it too by paying out wages the rest of us couldn't match.
The game, in my opinion, needs huge reform and a levelling of the playing field. Every club should have the same financial budget and wage limit for starters - that would bring an element of genuine skill and judgement back into the game. If a rule was added that fifty per-cent of a squad had to be local players that would restore a whole lot more local pride and support in clubs, too. It might even go some way to putting an end to glory-hunting.
Judging by the empty seats at Man City yesterday it would seem that buying trophies doesn't necessarily fire the imagination of all City supporters either. Deep down I'm sure many of them know all too well that it's a farce.
Well i do too, but whenever journalists or tv talk about ferguson's reign they tend to skim over 5 years it took to buy the league and the large collection of expensive duffers he bought before find the winning combination. just how it is...
Not sure how a local players rule would work, apart from lowering the standard of the league as a whole - there's just not that many great local based players around to support 20 odd teams - if there was Citeh would have saved their money, as would Manu, chelsea etc...
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Although the Man City fan makes a good case, the fact is that someone with unlimited wealth has turned up and is literally buying all the top prizes in football like it was some casual purchase. How can that be good for the game? Whatever Man City win now, it won't mean anything. No managerial genius, no team building, no real achievement. Just throw the cash on the table and collect the trophies.
Nice thought, but people only remember the trophies and not how they did it. Take Ferguson's first title, spent a fortune in those days on the likes of pallister, bruce, Ince, Keane as well as all the big money purchases that failed to make the grade - probably would top Citeh's spending if you tried to buy the same type of players now.. Does anyone say ManU bought the league?
I think that most would attribute ManU's success to a combination of having the money to buy top quality players, and being lucky enough to have an outstanding set of youngsters coming through at the same time.
their first title was done with no youngsters - they basically bought a PL winning team - no different from Citeh,
Giggs was definitely a major part of their team in 92/93, although I take your overall point.
schmeical
steve bruce
Irwin
pallister
parker
ferguson
giggs
Ince
kancleskis
phelan
sharpe
cantona
dublin
Hughes
mclair
wallace
webb
yep. always forget giggs was a bit older than the likes of Beckham
Still that squad taking out giggs, sharpe and ferguson, what it would cost in 2011 doesn't bear thinking about.
For instance Pallister world or british record fee for a defender... whats the record currently?
But weren't Utd able to spend that money having built the club to that position with previous successes, a large fan base, a great manager and spending money they had earnt through that. Not because a super rich businessman showed up and spent the equivilent of a small country's GDP on, at best, a historical also ran.
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I do wish people would stop hiding behind the money angle. we were piss poor as we've been a few times this season - so they've got the personnel to capitalise on our mistakes and bad play but when we were rolling in it not so long ago, i'm not sure the clubs with a fraction of our spend were claiming it was pointless turning up and we were killing football. Heart, discipline and concentation cost nowt.
And putting a side together that can contend costs £400,000,000, as seen today.
so that's the best we can play? I'm sorry Citeh may be a good side but we were complete arse. Bloody side assembled for 40 quid would would have caused us trouble today.
Hyperbole cranked up to 11, Greg? I agree that the football is shite, but I'd be more concerned if we played like that against Albion next week than against Man City. It was an expected result, just move on from it.
If its hyperbole to say we played shit then its something i share with the manager who says people would be "appalled" by the goals we gave away. I prefer that to the complacent attitude of yourself that "we would have lost to Citeh anyway"
Saying that a side put together for £40 would have competed with City more than the Villa did? That's hyperbole I reckon. I'm pissed off with a couple of the goals, but this is a fixture we shouldn't be looking at to test ourselves in, it's daft. We're not on a level playing field, we should be looking at performances against Newcastle and Everton for instance.
my point stands, that the majority of the goals yesterday could have been scored by the likes of Newcastle and everton. If you defend like that you'll lose 4-1 to them as well however many millions worth of players they have on the pitch.
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No, but it's magnified it to a large degree. I don't have anything against City having the cash, but what it's shown us is how far behind everyone else is from Man U/Chelsea. City have had to spend hundreds of millions of pounds to regularly crack the top four, no one else is in that position and it just further highlights what it takes to become contenders. We had a good side a couple of seasons ago, but had our best players plucked from us by sides that could throw money at them. Look at the England midfield the other night; Young, Milner, Barry and Downing at one point. You're unable to build a team anymore, the chance to compete is being nullified by the money being spunked at players
I daresay that fans of Wigan and Sunderland would agree that it's annoying when someone else with more money and better prospects comes in and signs your best player.
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No, but it's magnified it to a large degree. I don't have anything against City having the cash, but what it's shown us is how far behind everyone else is from Man U/Chelsea. City have had to spend hundreds of millions of pounds to regularly crack the top four, no one else is in that position and it just further highlights what it takes to become contenders. We had a good side a couple of seasons ago, but had our best players plucked from us by sides that could throw money at them. Look at the England midfield the other night; Young, Milner, Barry and Downing at one point. You're unable to build a team anymore, the chance to compete is being nullified by the money being spunked at players
I daresay that fans of Wigan and Sunderland would agree that it's annoying when someone else with more money and better prospects comes in and signs your best player.
Very true, however in the cases of the players you're implying at least they came here to be first-team regulars. The way City just bought Milner, definitely our best player that season, and just squadded him was uncomfortable to see. Downing, Young, even Barry, they've gone to be important first-teamers at their clubs. The Milner thing still seems unseemly to me.
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No, but it's magnified it to a large degree. I don't have anything against City having the cash, but what it's shown us is how far behind everyone else is from Man U/Chelsea. City have had to spend hundreds of millions of pounds to regularly crack the top four, no one else is in that position and it just further highlights what it takes to become contenders. We had a good side a couple of seasons ago, but had our best players plucked from us by sides that could throw money at them. Look at the England midfield the other night; Young, Milner, Barry and Downing at one point. You're unable to build a team anymore, the chance to compete is being nullified by the money being spunked at players
I daresay that fans of Wigan and Sunderland would agree that it's annoying when someone else with more money and better prospects comes in and signs your best player.
And rightly so. Why did we have to sign N'Zogbia and Bent though?
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Although the Man City fan makes a good case, the fact is that someone with unlimited wealth has turned up and is literally buying all the top prizes in football like it was some casual purchase. How can that be good for the game? Whatever Man City win now, it won't mean anything. No managerial genius, no team building, no real achievement. Just throw the cash on the table and collect the trophies.
Nice thought, but people only remember the trophies and not how they did it. Take Ferguson's first title, spent a fortune in those days on the likes of pallister, bruce, Ince, Keane as well as all the big money purchases that failed to make the grade - probably would top Citeh's spending if you tried to buy the same type of players now.. Does anyone say ManU bought the league?
I think that most would attribute ManU's success to a combination of having the money to buy top quality players, and being lucky enough to have an outstanding set of youngsters coming through at the same time.
their first title was done with no youngsters - they basically bought a PL winning team - no different from Citeh,
Giggs was definitely a major part of their team in 92/93, although I take your overall point.
schmeical
steve bruce
Irwin
pallister
parker
ferguson
giggs
Ince
kancleskis
phelan
sharpe
cantona
dublin
Hughes
mclair
wallace
webb
yep. always forget giggs was a bit older than the likes of Beckham
Still that squad taking out giggs, sharpe and ferguson, what it would cost in 2011 doesn't bear thinking about.
For instance Pallister world or british record fee for a defender... whats the record currently?
But weren't Utd able to spend that money having built the club to that position with previous successes, a large fan base, a great manager and spending money they had earnt through that. Not because a super rich businessman showed up and spent the equivilent of a small country's GDP on, at best, a historical also ran.
well they'd been a bit light on previous success since the late 60's. A few fa cup wins over about 15 years i think. And their fan base was not what people recall now. From memory they rarely sold out their ground during ferguson's first years and regularly got attendaces in the low 20's. I'm sure they had a little help in that direction as they didn't have 40 trillion oversea's supporters in those days.
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I'll say one thing that is an indictment of modern football. When a team with 9 internationals in its starting line up gets beaten 4-1 and its fans largely just expected it, it means there is something wrong.
There are two things wrong. One is the financial disparity that is eradicating fair and honest competition out of our football
When was there a time when there wasn't 'financial disparity' between some clubs and other clubs?
When we were spending millions and millions of pounds a couple of years ago, were we ruining things for the likes of Wigan and Bolton?
If not, it seems a bit unreasonable for us to be whinging just because there's now someone much richer out there.
Agreed that a level of disparity has always been around but now the scale is so huge with the way Chelsea and Mancity have spent. They have not only bought players to play in their first team but also made strategic purchases to weaken opposition or deny improvement to competitors.
The difference should be by how much a club earns in gate receipts not injection of enormous unaccountable funds.
I am arguing not just for us but for the future of football where empty grounds on Saturday afternoon is going to be the case.
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I can remember back in the 80s, when Liverpool had Beardsley and Barnes on the bench for one match. There was as much disparity then as there is now.
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I cant recall Man United ever getting crowds in the low 20s.
Edit; A quick look, they once got a 23k against Wimbledon in 1988.
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Are we going to continue to say that we lost because we cannot compete with the top 3 or 4 because of money. Are we going to use it as an excuse for half-hearted performances against these teams. I am amazed that people cannot see we are a soft touch these days. As soon as something goes against us, our heads drop and they give up. What happened to fighting spirit.
If we had put in a real battling performance yesterday, pushed them all the way and lost by the odd goal or two, it would have taken us into next weeks game in the right frame of mind. As it is now, it is back to basics (the manager's words) and starting from square one again. We do not seem to have a plan to build and progress.
The other point is that we do not seem to play as a team but as a side of individuals. It is almost as though you can hear them think "I'll do my own job and that's all". Where is the encouragement from the older players to the younger players.
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The difference should be by how much a club earns in gate receipts not injection of enormous unaccountable funds.
Why weren't you arguing this when Randy was injecting tens of millions of pounds into us then?
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Man U definitely bought the League title in 93 and everyone since. They'd been trying to buy it since around 1978 so they were bound to succeed sometime and Ferguson was lucky enough to be at Old Trafford long enough to benefit from Liverpool's kamikazee appointment of Souness which briefly left United with no real competion (leeds and us - wow!) so at that point their lavish spending could hardly fail.
If Villa were doing what Man City are I would have mixed feelings, but I'd still enjoy us being able to stick it to Man U, so I can fully understand why City fans have no mixed feelings at all given the humiliations they have had to take over the last 30 years or so from Man U and their arrogant supporters.
Maybe we can take some pride in the fact that we were the last team to win the league without any significant spending at all.
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It was a pity that James Collins was not fit to play as we could have done with the extra muscle.
Disappointed with Delph again. No ball control and inability to pass accurately. I am sure he is a better player than this.
N'Zogbia worries me even though he only played for a bit and Bent disappears from view far too often.
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N'Zogbia worries me even though he only played for a bit and Bent disappears from view far too often.
Spot on DC5; I was particularly disappointed with Bent's half-arsed performance yesterday - his immobility was very worrying - he only seems to make an effort if he thinks the ball is coming straight to him. A striker should be making the two central defenders work, through regular movement. He needs to take a leaf out of Gabby's book. McLeish's assertions during the week leading up to the game that he has more to his game than 'being a poacher' were proven to be laughable yesterday.
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Are we going to continue to say that we lost because we cannot compete with the top 3 or 4 because of money. Are we going to use it as an excuse for half-hearted performances against these teams. I am amazed that people cannot see we are a soft touch these days. As soon as something goes against us, our heads drop and they give up. What happened to fighting spirit.
If we had put in a real battling performance yesterday, pushed them all the way and lost by the odd goal or two, it would have taken us into next weeks game in the right frame of mind. As it is now, it is back to basics (the manager's words) and starting from square one again. We do not seem to have a plan to build and progress.
The other point is that we do not seem to play as a team but as a side of individuals. It is almost as though you can hear them think "I'll do my own job and that's all". Where is the encouragement from the older players to the younger players.
I think this is a fair comment but I don't think it's about fighting spirit; more about having the right players. Ireland and Heskey in MF are not going to give us the opportunity to impose ourselves on opponents. Delph still has a lot to learn and Petrov will always run out of 'legs' as the game lengthens.
Against Everton, earlier in the season, I was really impressed with the way that they swamped the midfield and squeezed the life out of us (even if we managed to sneak a draw). Newcastle did the same at VP. We are certainly a soft touch in midfield, and it's an area where we should have strengthened in the close season.
I said earlier in the season that we're an opposition's dream opposition: easy to read and easy to set up against. Having said that, we've only actually lost once!
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I am amazed that people cannot see we are a soft touch these days. As soon as something goes against us, our heads drop and they give up. What happened to fighting spirit.
That's just not true. Our last two away games have seen us come from behind to get a point. As ever people try to extrapolate far too much from one game. You're just twisting the facts to suit a viewpoint.
Man City are a better team than us, in fact they've probably got two teams better than the first team of all but 3 or 4 other clubs. Poor defending cost us a couple of goals yesterday but they've been strong most of the season so I'm prepared to cut them some slack. I think all that did was change the score, not the result. If it had been a tighter game they had Silva, Nasri and Dzeko to bring on to exploit a tiring defence. I think those not getting their knickers in a twist are just being realistic.
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I am amazed that people cannot see we are a soft touch these days. As soon as something goes against us, our heads drop and they give up. What happened to fighting spirit.
That's just not true. Our last two away games have seen us come from behind to get a point. As ever people try to extrapolate far too much from one game. You're just twisting the facts to suit a viewpoint.
Man City are a better team than us, in fact they've probably got two teams better than the first team of all but 3 or 4 other clubs. Poor defending cost us a couple of goals yesterday but they've been strong most of the season so I'm prepared to cut them some slack. I think all that did was change the score, not the result. If it had been a tighter game they had Silva, Nasri and Dzeko to bring on to exploit a tiring defence. I think those not getting their knickers in a twist are just being realistic.
they may well have beaten us but thats not the point. they barely had to go above 2nd gear - if they'd played like a 400m pound team and we'd played at our best then all the "football's unfair yadda yadda yadda" comments would have some validity. play like that against most teams and you'll get nowt
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I agree with others that we didn't play all that badly and we had one or two decent moments, but we were terribly dull. For much of the 2nd half, as City stroked the ball around and we didn't get a touch, I was very bored, waiting for it all to end. No aggression from Villa, no excitement. Is this what football has become?
We didn't move the ball quickly enough to make the opposition think and chase back; all v pedestrian.
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I think you're confusing individual errors with performance, Greg.
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I think you're confusing individual errors with performance, Greg.
we were bobbins even without certain players given them a helping hand. Don't know what AM's game plan was apart from "try to keep the goals against in single figures"
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I think you're confusing individual errors with performance, Greg.
we were bobbins even without certain players given them a helping hand. Don't know what AM's game plan was apart from "try to keep the goals against in single figures"
We were the better side in the first half, we then gave away two bad goals just after half time and undid all the good work. As I said, we lost one game and despite your attempts to turn it in to something wider it was no more or less significant than winning the previous one.
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I am amazed that people cannot see we are a soft touch these days. As soon as something goes against us, our heads drop and they give up. What happened to fighting spirit.
That's just not true. Our last two away games have seen us come from behind to get a point. As ever people try to extrapolate far too much from one game. You're just twisting the facts to suit a viewpoint.
Man City are a better team than us, in fact they've probably got two teams better than the first team of all but 3 or 4 other clubs. Poor defending cost us a couple of goals yesterday but they've been strong most of the season so I'm prepared to cut them some slack. I think all that did was change the score, not the result. If it had been a tighter game they had Silva, Nasri and Dzeko to bring on to exploit a tiring defence. I think those not getting their knickers in a twist are just being realistic.
No they haven't, we led at QPR and threw it away. The only league games we've gone behind in this season are Everton and yesterday.
Maybe people are twisting facts, but at least they are facts, unlike your post *winky*
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Hang one, wasn't crap defensive mistakes what AM was brought in to stop? bottom line is Citeh will play better than that this season and lose. they were average and even thier stats bare it out- they hardly dominated us with possession or shots on goals and yet as certain commentators have said already it was embarrassing at times. I'm not trying to turn it into anything apart from it being a rotten performance with a poor team selection and formation. whoever the oppossition was and their current bank balance is immaterial
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Although the Man City fan makes a good case, the fact is that someone with unlimited wealth has turned up and is literally buying all the top prizes in football like it was some casual purchase. How can that be good for the game? Whatever Man City win now, it won't mean anything. No managerial genius, no team building, no real achievement. Just throw the cash on the table and collect the trophies.
Nice thought, but people only remember the trophies and not how they did it. Take Ferguson's first title, spent a fortune in those days on the likes of pallister, bruce, Ince, Keane as well as all the big money purchases that failed to make the grade - probably would top Citeh's spending if you tried to buy the same type of players now.. Does anyone say ManU bought the league?
No, but by the time they won the league, they had been trying for over 20 years. Also, their main title rivals that season were Villa and Norwich City. Two clubs who now have absolutely no chance of competing again.
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Although the Man City fan makes a good case, the fact is that someone with unlimited wealth has turned up and is literally buying all the top prizes in football like it was some casual purchase. How can that be good for the game? Whatever Man City win now, it won't mean anything. No managerial genius, no team building, no real achievement. Just throw the cash on the table and collect the trophies.
Nice thought, but people only remember the trophies and not how they did it. Take Ferguson's first title, spent a fortune in those days on the likes of pallister, bruce, Ince, Keane as well as all the big money purchases that failed to make the grade - probably would top Citeh's spending if you tried to buy the same type of players now.. Does anyone say ManU bought the league?
No, but by the time they won the league, they had been trying for over 20 years. Also, their main title rivals that season were Villa and Norwich City. Two clubs who now have absolutely no chance of competing again.
by the same token if some revenue connected rules had been bought in mid-80's along the lines they're talking about now, the likes of chelsea, blackburn citeh, etc would never have won anything or been able to compete and the likes of United and Liverpool would have dominated even more. Not sure whats worse but 20 years of every trophy ending up shared between those two doesn't exactly strike me as a great alternative to the current state of affairs
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The difference should be by how much a club earns in gate receipts not injection of enormous unaccountable funds.
Why weren't you arguing this when Randy was injecting tens of millions of pounds into us then?
He only invested funds that could be serviced by the Club earnings. There were no "gifted" cash funds given to Villa with no need to payback like Chelsea and Mancity.
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With Gabby, Bent, Bannan, Ireland and N'Zog we have a good strikeforce in there somewhere, the water carriers alongside them need to be better.But they are no Balotelli, Silva, Nasri et al.
It would'nt surprise me if Citeeeh go the whole Prem season undefeated.
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With Gabby, Bent, Bannan, Ireland and N'Zog we have a good strikeforce in there somewhere, the water carriers alongside them need to be better.
Yeah, watching the Barcodes right now, the combo of Tiote and Cabaye really looks good in the MF centre. We're currently light in the area that we effectively disinvested in over the summer; and in which we've actually been weak for several seasons.
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With Gabby, Bent, Bannan, Ireland and N'Zog we have a good strikeforce in there somewhere, the water carriers alongside them need to be better.But they are no Balotelli, Silva, Nasri et al.
It would'nt surprise me if Citeeeh go the whole Prem season undefeated.
we'll see how they do against manu away next week. Personally i don't think they've got a hope in hell of staying unbeaten all season.
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With Gabby, Bent, Bannan, Ireland and N'Zog we have a good strikeforce in there somewhere, the water carriers alongside them need to be better.But they are no Balotelli, Silva, Nasri et al.
It would'nt surprise me if Citeeeh go the whole Prem season undefeated.
we'll see how they do against manu away next week. Personally i don't think they've got a hope in hell of staying unbeaten all season.
For a team that had not conceded at home, their defence showed one or two weaknesses yesterday but I felt - like several others who were on the match thread - that they always had another gear to go to if required. They'll defo be 'in the mix' come May, unbeaten or not.
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Although the Man City fan makes a good case, the fact is that someone with unlimited wealth has turned up and is literally buying all the top prizes in football like it was some casual purchase. How can that be good for the game? Whatever Man City win now, it won't mean anything. No managerial genius, no team building, no real achievement. Just throw the cash on the table and collect the trophies.
Spot on. When that fat balloon head David Platt can start making out he is a coaching genius football is in trouble.
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What a waste of bandwidth, arguing about a performance at City? Two wins in twenty odd years.
From Moss Side to Beswick, we're shit in Manchester, it's the law.
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... that fat balloon head David Platt ...
He he; made me chuckle.
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I am amazed that people cannot see we are a soft touch these days. As soon as something goes against us, our heads drop and they give up. What happened to fighting spirit.
That's just not true. Our last two away games have seen us come from behind to get a point. As ever people try to extrapolate far too much from one game. You're just twisting the facts to suit a viewpoint.
Man City are a better team than us, in fact they've probably got two teams better than the first team of all but 3 or 4 other clubs. Poor defending cost us a couple of goals yesterday but they've been strong most of the season so I'm prepared to cut them some slack. I think all that did was change the score, not the result. If it had been a tighter game they had Silva, Nasri and Dzeko to bring on to exploit a tiring defence. I think those not getting their knickers in a twist are just being realistic.
No they haven't, we led at QPR and threw it away. The only league games we've gone behind in this season are Everton and yesterday.
Maybe people are twisting facts, but at least they are facts, unlike your post *winky*
Yes, you're right but we did come back from a first half battering down there to take the gem to them so the broader point still stands.
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The difference should be by how much a club earns in gate receipts not injection of enormous unaccountable funds.
Why weren't you arguing this when Randy was injecting tens of millions of pounds into us then?
He only invested funds that could be serviced by the Club earnings. There were no "gifted" cash funds given to Villa with no need to payback like Chelsea and Mancity.
I'd put a lot of money on the fact that we have spent considerably more than what the club "earns in gate receipts".
And if the money that he has put in can be 'serviced by the club's earnings' (which it can't) why has it stopped all of a sudden?
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I think you're confusing individual errors with performance, Greg.
I'm not surprised Greg has popped into this post match thread. He was nowhere to be seen in the Wigan one.
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We were poor vs Citeh -AM said he would offer Emile a new contract
What for???
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I think you're confusing individual errors with performance, Greg.
I'm not surprised Greg has popped into this post match thread. He was nowhere to be seen in the Wigan one.
!
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He only invested funds that could be serviced by the Club earnings. There were no "gifted" cash funds given to Villa with no need to payback like Chelsea and Mancity.
Absolutely, completely and utterly wrong.
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In that case what's the correct position?
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I'd put a lot of money on the fact that we have spent considerably more than what the club "earns in gate receipts".
And if the money that he has put in can be 'serviced by the club's earnings' (which it can't) why has it stopped all of a sudden?
Well I would assume that the money to buy the club and the transfer money is a loan to the club from Randy (via some Finance house). This loan is now at a level that if we were to "borrow" more than we are not able to keep up with repayments and therefore the money supply has stopped.
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I am amazed that people cannot see we are a soft touch these days. As soon as something goes against us, our heads drop and they give up. What happened to fighting spirit.
That's just not true. Our last two away games have seen us come from behind to get a point. As ever people try to extrapolate far too much from one game. You're just twisting the facts to suit a viewpoint.
Man City are a better team than us, in fact they've probably got two teams better than the first team of all but 3 or 4 other clubs. Poor defending cost us a couple of goals yesterday but they've been strong most of the season so I'm prepared to cut them some slack. I think all that did was change the score, not the result. If it had been a tighter game they had Silva, Nasri and Dzeko to bring on to exploit a tiring defence. I think those not getting their knickers in a twist are just being realistic.
We came back to get a point against Everton and regardless of how Everton are playing, getting anything there over the years has always been a good result, I believe. When was the other time we have come from behind (me twisting the facts!).
Chris, it is not just the reaction to one result. We have played 5 of the bottom 7 teams and I do not think we looked convincing in any of those games. Even in the two games we have won, there were long periods when we were second best to the two teams that are propping up the table.
Every week before the games I am not confident of us winning and it is not just this season, it was just the same in the MON years. We seem incapable of dominating teams and we rely too much on the quality of individuals to win games.
So you are not getting your knickers in a twist and think you are being realistic. Realistic about what? I am being realistic (I think) in that we are not going to challenge the top 4 or 6 for many years unless there is a change in the financial status quo. I do believe that we have the set up and standing to be the best of the rest and play entertaining/exciting football at the same time.
I thought last season we were starting to make some headway and progressing by slowly changing our style of play. This season I see it being a step back to the MON years but without the star players.
I am concerned that being undefeated early season (until yesterday) has masked some uninspiring performances. Granted that we have lost probably our two most influential players from last season (Bent's goals aside) but we have neither replaced them with players that play the same positions or strengthened the team in other positions so as to play a different type of game.
In my opinion, we seem to have stopped looking to the future and are only concerned with the next game.
By the way, when I say they give up, I mean they are just content with going through the motions. When was the last time you could see them roll up their sleeves, get the bit between the teeth and really go for it. We still have some quality strikers that can score goals out of the blue and, thus, makes us seem better than we are.
4 of our next 5 matches are again against easier opposition and we need to be picking up 10 to 12 points from these games. If not, we are going to be going into a very difficult December looking down rather than up, with the threat of relegation being talked of again. If that is the case, come the turn of the year, I am afraid the calls for a new manager will be strong and could turn very nasty.
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Great post, OMVF.
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I'd put a lot of money on the fact that we have spent considerably more than what the club "earns in gate receipts".
And if the money that he has put in can be 'serviced by the club's earnings' (which it can't) why has it stopped all of a sudden?
Well I would assume that the money to buy the club and the transfer money is a loan to the club from Randy (via some Finance house). This loan is now at a level that if we were to "borrow" more than we are not able to keep up with repayments and therefore the money supply has stopped.
All the money Lerner has put in has come from his family trust. Half has been injected in the form of share capital, and half in the form of loan notes. The loans are due to be repaid in the next 6+ years. We've made big losses for the last two years, of about £85m for the two years combined. As to why the cash has stopped, well that's something that only Lerner really knows, although I think a combination of him taking some big hits on the general value of his core investments, plus the desire to scale back after O'Neill wasted half of the money given to him is probably not far off the mark.
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Omvf, I was specifically talking about there bring no fighting spirit and us being a soft touch. That was true for large parts of last season but not this one. Until yesterday we've been strong defensively and the argument about us not playing anyone doesn't really hold water as anyone coukd score against us last season.
Performances have been patchy but the effort and application have been there.
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I'd put a lot of money on the fact that we have spent considerably more than what the club "earns in gate receipts".
And if the money that he has put in can be 'serviced by the club's earnings' (which it can't) why has it stopped all of a sudden?
Well I would assume that the money to buy the club and the transfer money is a loan to the club from Randy (via some Finance house). This loan is now at a level that if we were to "borrow" more than we are not able to keep up with repayments and therefore the money supply has stopped.
All the money Lerner has put in has come from his family trust. Half has been injected in the form of share capital, and half in the form of loan notes. The loans are due to be repaid in the next 6+ years. We've made big losses for the last two years, of about £85m for the two years combined. As to why the cash has stopped, well that's something that only Lerner really knows, although I think a combination of him taking some big hits on the general value of his core investments, plus the desire to scale back after O'Neill wasted half of the money given to him is probably not far off the mark.
Thank you. I assume Club are paying interest on the outstanding loans.
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Although the Man City fan makes a good case, the fact is that someone with unlimited wealth has turned up and is literally buying all the top prizes in football like it was some casual purchase. How can that be good for the game? Whatever Man City win now, it won't mean anything. No managerial genius, no team building, no real achievement. Just throw the cash on the table and collect the trophies.
Spot on. When that fat balloon head David Platt can start making out he is a coaching genius football is in trouble.
When they won the FA cup last season, one of the knobs on Sky said it was a great acheivement - bollox, it what was expected after all the money spent. City's situation has taken money from being factor to a huge difference in competing for trophies. A few years ago they were nothing. I saw a young lad in Reading yesterday with a full Citeh kit on - it's started.
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As a City fan, I'm interested in the comments on here particularly as regards the death of the game etc etc. I was saying exactly the same before we won the lottery in 2008. How is it different now that City have money except that there are now 5 or 6 teams that can compete rather than the previous 3 ?
Yep, we've spent £*** [insert your own made-up figure here] billions of pounds but you have to to join the Sky 4. It has always been a cartel for goodness sake and no-one, but no-one, is going to join that self-interested club from a standing start without spending that sort of money. Having spent our way into the reckoning you'll see that we no longer have to spend more each year than say, United, to stay there.
City players are "mercenaries" ? well knock me down with a feather, who'd have suspected that professional footballers were motivated by money ? As for the salaries, we, and any other club lucky enough to find itself in our position, have to pay high basic salaries because we simply can't compete yet (and possibly never will) with the worldwide personal sponsorship and image rights deals that Sky4 players get as soon as they sign on the dotted line.
Sure the Premier League is all about money, it has been for 19 years which is why only rich clubs have won it (and, in the two exceptional cases, nearly bankrupted themselves in the process) but we didn't light that particular fire.
As far as Villa are concerned. It's difficult to say anything encouraging from yesterday's performance without sounding patronising but you have stood by them in worse times than these, and with worse teams than this, by a long way and I know for certain that the majority of you will continue to do so because that's what you do. The day before our investors took over, we survived only on hope and had no idea what was around the corner for us. Neither do you. Just hang in there and do what we did for 35 years, take what enjoyment you can, where you can. Things change, something will turn up.
I think the mistake your making is that you are of the impression that people commenting about the vast amounts of money being spent is solely about Man City and in some way you feel its directed at Man City because it is Man City, not so.
I personally was saying the same to a lesser degree when Abramovich was throwing it about at Chelsea, the problem is in the case of your owners they have taken it to the e nth degree, all of a sudden the game has taken a twist where struggle to achieve and endeavour has gone out the window and has been replaced with whoever can throw the most money at it, problem is and just like the global economy when things get out of hand to this level there is only one outcome, mark my words, its coming and it will happen in football, all this will come to an abrupt end simply because when you go down this road ask yourself,,,where does it end.
We are already seeing the money men making suggestions of how the market should be freer and that the top clubs should be free to exploit TV rights, Liverpool at the moment, I wouldn't mind betting your sheiks are thinking, "this makes sense" as I'm sure are the Glaziers, problem is carry on like this and you won't be playing clubs like Villa, Everton, Wigan and many others, they will simply cease to exist.
My reasons for saying something should be done isn't just about money its about the fact that the very idea of being able to see dream players making up dream teams you would think would have the impact on fans of all teams that they are seeing something incredibly wonderful, fact is its having the exact opposite effect, people I talk to are getting very very bored with football, the old excitement of seeing a team in the UK week in and week out that could encompass skills through players like Silva, Aguerro, Balotelli and many others, simply isn't there, in fact its like dog shit these day's, its everywhere.
Its killing the game mate, not Man City, but the whole concept of overwhelming wealth.
Seriously, do you not think something is wrong in football when many fans psychologically look at the next fixture and see we are playing Man Utd or Man City, Chelsea, and think phuk that not worth throwing the money away on it, I'll wait till we play someone we can actually get a game with.
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I saw a lad in Martley (Worcs) in a Reading shirt this morning. It's neither here nor there to this debate but DB's pst just reminded me of it.
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I don't really know how anyone thinks yesterday is a valid result to have a go at McLeish over. If we lose next weekend, yes, those are the matches we should be winning, but not what is the second toughest away trip of the season. The measure of McLeish is not what we did yesterday, it will be how he lifts usfor next weekend.
As for not challenging the top four, *of course* we are not going to.
The club have made it quite clear we have to become self sufficient. The last time they told us was at the SCG meeting.
Some of us seem to be walking around with our fingers in our ears, refusing to listen, refusing to face facts.
We are being set up to coast along, under our own steam. How anyone thinks you can challenge under those conditions is beyond me.
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Until yesterday we've been strong defensively and the argument about us not playing anyone doesn't really hold water as anyone coukd score against us last season.
But we still finished 9th with 48 points. At our current rate of points per game, we would only just exceed last season's points.
I will say it again, we have had an easy start to the season and we only have 11 points. This concerns me greatly.
We have been strong defensively you say but at the expense of an attacking side to the game. At least last season there were times when we played some good football and won with attacking play.
The one good thing this season is that we have not been hit with the appalling injuries we had in the first half of last season.
The improvement with the defence could be put down to many things:
Weaker opposition
More settled team
Players being in the right frame of mind and of the required fitness at the start of the season
More professional attitude
A better goalkeeper
etc etc.
Only time will tell.
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The time to be concerned is not losing to Man City, its when we play a team like WBA and lose, then is the time to go super analytical mode.
So far we have been holding our own versus the lesser sides, so we have set our stall out there, in that we are rightly placed in the Premiership with perhaps a view to up our position to maybe 7th or 8th at the final, yesterday was a good test, it screams one thing, we can't compete at that level and that's that, and we struggle to defend against quality but this point we should be able to improve on.
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But that's a different argument, omvf. We finished last season well but were dreadful up until January. This season we're doing the basics right. There are plenty of valid criticisms but a lack of fight isn't one of them. Getting Bent more involved, the right balance in centre mid, the struggle of N'Zogbia to find any form and the decline of Marc Albrighton are more pressing concerns.
I was encouraged by the second half at Loftus Road and the Wigan game and even the first half yesterday. I think we're a comfortably a mid table side and if we get the things above sorted perhaps a bit higher. As Paulie says, that's where the club are choosing to operate at present, expecting anything else is both unfair and unrealistic.
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But that's a different argument, omvf. We finished last season well but were dreadful up until January. This season we're doing the basics right. There are plenty of valid criticisms but a lack of fight isn't one of them. Getting Bent more involved, the right balance in centre mid, the struggle of N'Zogbia to find any form and the decline of Marc Albrighton are more pressing concerns.
I was encouraged by the second half at Loftus Road and the Wigan game and even the first half yesterday. I think we're a comfortably a mid table side and if we get the things above sorted perhaps a bit higher. As Paulie says, that's where the club are choosing to operate at present, expecting anything else is both unfair and unrealistic.
Well this say's one thing, we've got a good 45 in us.....
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The time to be concerned is not losing to Man City, its when we play a team like WBA and lose, then is the time to go super analytical mode.
So far we have been holding our own versus the lesser sides, so we have set our stall out there, in that we are rightly placed in the Premiership with perhaps a view to up our position to maybe 7th or 8th at the final, yesterday was a good test, it screams one thing, we can't compete at that level and that's that, and we struggle to defend against quality but this point we should be able to improve on.
That's pretty much it.
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I was just wondering, where is the continuity in planning in spending somewhere between 18 and 24 million pounds on one player in January and then throwing ourselves at self sufficiency so whole heartedly a few months later.
Lots of things about Villa in recent months make no sense at all.
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But that's a different argument, omvf. We finished last season well but were dreadful up until January. This season we're doing the basics right. There are plenty of valid criticisms but a lack of fight isn't one of them. Getting Bent more involved, the right balance in centre mid, the struggle of N'Zogbia to find any form and the decline of Marc Albrighton are more pressing concerns.
I was encouraged by the second half at Loftus Road and the Wigan game and even the first half yesterday. I think we're a comfortably a mid table side and if we get the things above sorted perhaps a bit higher. As Paulie says, that's where the club are choosing to operate at present, expecting anything else is both unfair and unrealistic.
Well this say's one thing, we've got a good 45 in us.....
The stars on 45 keep on turning in your mind...
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The trouble is, with the cost of watching football increasing all the time...
Ticket: £20-£45
Travel (fuel, fares, parking): £20
Food/drink: £10+
Other: £10
This gives a total of between £65 and £85 per game x 19 games = £1,235 to £1,615 per person (not including cup games)
This is a large cost especially in the current climate.
Couple that with uninspiring performances, the likely hood of finishing 8th - 10th and a very small chance of a cup win will only mean one thing...
Lower attendance, worse finances and the club stagnating further.
Some keep saying we cant use this result to judge us by and to wait till we play teams like the baggies, the problem is we already have (Wigan, Backburn, QPR) and we have not exactly been inspiring.
I am very concerned about the club and it's direction
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The one thing that does concern me is Darren Bent, it is without question he is one of the best goalscorers in the Premiership, a natural goal poacher, did more than is fair share to keep us up for the business end of last season.
So where is he now, thus far we have been playing mostly average sides this season and he just hasn't figured, its against these sides you would think he would be doing it for fun and on auto.
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The trouble is, with the cost of watching football increasing all the time...
Ticket: £20-£45
Travel (fuel, fares, parking): £20
Food/drink: £10+
Other: £10
This gives a total of between £65 and £85 per game x 19 games = £1,235 to £1,615 per person (not including cup games)
This is a large cost especially in the current climate.
Couple that with uninspiring performances, the likely hood of finishing 8th - 10th and a very small chance of a cup win will only mean one thing...
Lower attendance, worse finances and the club stagnating further.
Some keep saying we cant use this result to judge us by and to wait till we play teams like the baggies, the problem is we already have (Wigan, Backburn, QPR) and we have not exactly been inspiring.
I am very concerned about the club and it's direction
Personally I think its scary...
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I am very concerned about the club and it's direction
Substitute 'the club' with 'football' and you are on the money...
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The trouble is, with the cost of watching football increasing all the time...
Ticket: £20-£45
Travel (fuel, fares, parking): £20
Food/drink: £10+
Other: £10
This gives a total of between £65 and £85 per game x 19 games = £1,235 to £1,615 per person (not including cup games)
This is a large cost especially in the current climate.
Couple that with uninspiring performances, the likely hood of finishing 8th - 10th and a very small chance of a cup win will only mean one thing...
Lower attendance, worse finances and the club stagnating further.
Some keep saying we cant use this result to judge us by and to wait till we play teams like the baggies, the problem is we already have (Wigan, Backburn, QPR) and we have not exactly been inspiring.
I am very concerned about the club and it's direction
Personally I think its scary...
I was called by the club last week to see if I wanted a 1/2 season ticket as I didn't renew this season after 18yrs. It's not bad, 250 quid in lower Holte for 10 games, 11 if I order before Nov 5th and get the Norwich game as a bonus. However, the point above is a valid one....we have no chance of competeing with the top 5, due to the finances that clubs like Citeh, Chelsea can boast, it's like buying a lottery ticket knowing all you can win is a 100 quid.
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The one thing that does concern me is Darren Bent, it is without question he is one of the best goalscorers in the Premiership, a natural goal poacher, did more than is fair share to keep us up for the business end of last season.
So where is he now, thus far we have been playing mostly average sides this season and he just hasn't figured, its against these sides you would think he would be doing it for fun and on auto.
Go back and look at where Bent's assists came from last season. You could have the best striker in the world but if he is not getting the service he will not score goals. Perhaps not quite true as Messi doesn't seem to need help from anybody.
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The trouble is, with the cost of watching football increasing all the time...
Ticket: £20-£45
Travel (fuel, fares, parking): £20
Food/drink: £10+
Other: £10
This gives a total of between £65 and £85 per game x 19 games = £1,235 to £1,615 per person (not including cup games)
This is a large cost especially in the current climate.
Couple that with uninspiring performances, the likely hood of finishing 8th - 10th and a very small chance of a cup win will only mean one thing...
Lower attendance, worse finances and the club stagnating further.
Some keep saying we cant use this result to judge us by and to wait till we play teams like the baggies, the problem is we already have (Wigan, Backburn, QPR) and we have not exactly been inspiring.
I am very concerned about the club and it's direction
Personally I think its scary...
I was called by the club last week to see if I wanted a 1/2 season ticket as I didn't renew this season after 18yrs. It's not bad, 250 quid in lower Holte for 10 games, 11 if I order before Nov 5th and get the Norwich game as a bonus. However, the point above is a valid one....we have no chance of competeing with the top 5, due to the finances that clubs like Citeh, Chelsea can boast, it's like buying a lottery ticket knowing all you can win is a 100 quid.
That's decent really, and I have to say v Norwich would probably create more excitement in terms of football than anything we witnessed yesterday. Hopefully.
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The one thing that does concern me is Darren Bent, it is without question he is one of the best goalscorers in the Premiership, a natural goal poacher, did more than is fair share to keep us up for the business end of last season.
So where is he now, thus far we have been playing mostly average sides this season and he just hasn't figured, its against these sides you would think he would be doing it for fun and on auto.
Go back and look at where Bent's assists came from last season. You could have the best striker in the world but if he is not getting the service he will not score goals. Perhaps not quite true as Messi doesn't seem to need help from anybody.
Couldn't argue with that omvf, good point, the only comment i would make is that he appears to be drifting in and out games, and I would say if Gabby is there for 4 I would expect Bent to have more.
As you say if he's not getting the service, and he's not, then his best asset being a goal poacher goes out the window.
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But that's a different argument, omvf. We finished last season well but were dreadful up until January. This season we're doing the basics right. There are plenty of valid criticisms but a lack of fight isn't one of them. Getting Bent more involved, the right balance in centre mid, the struggle of N'Zogbia to find any form and the decline of Marc Albrighton are more pressing concerns.
I was encouraged by the second half at Loftus Road and the Wigan game and even the first half yesterday. I think we're a comfortably a mid table side and if we get the things above sorted perhaps a bit higher. As Paulie says, that's where the club are choosing to operate at present, expecting anything else is both unfair and unrealistic.
Chris, I have always admired your optimism and support for the team/manager/club to the point of being the last man to turn the lights off when things have not been going well for us.
As I said earlier, I believe we have the set up and standing to be the best of the rest. However, we have to believe that and have the vision to see a way in which we can achieve it and that doesn't meen just throwing money at it.
Like others, I am getting a little concerned that the club is burying it's head in the sand and sailing on hopefully. An owner without a detailed understanding of the game can only take you so far.
I want this club to be the best but understand that we do not have the finances to do that. I will be patient if I can see a progression in the right direction. All I can see at the moment is a mid-table side. Considering where we were 2 seasons ago, this is a major fall and I am struggling to see the current way (manager and owner) getting us to 7th.
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We're going through a process of cost cutting and only time will tell if that's a transitional arrangement or a sign of how things are going to be on a longer term basis. I think it's a bit premature to declare that we've given up completely.
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The trouble is, with the cost of watching football increasing all the time...
Ticket: £20-£45
Travel (fuel, fares, parking): £20
Food/drink: £10+
Other: £10
This gives a total of between £65 and £85 per game x 19 games = £1,235 to £1,615 per person (not including cup games)
This is a large cost especially in the current climate.
Couple that with uninspiring performances, the likely hood of finishing 8th - 10th and a very small chance of a cup win will only mean one thing...
Lower attendance, worse finances and the club stagnating further.
Some keep saying we cant use this result to judge us by and to wait till we play teams like the baggies, the problem is we already have (Wigan, Backburn, QPR) and we have not exactly been inspiring.
I am very concerned about the club and it's direction
Personally I think its scary...
I was called by the club last week to see if I wanted a 1/2 season ticket as I didn't renew this season after 18yrs. It's not bad, 250 quid in lower Holte for 10 games, 11 if I order before Nov 5th and get the Norwich game as a bonus. However, the point above is a valid one....we have no chance of competeing with the top 5, due to the finances that clubs like Citeh, Chelsea can boast, it's like buying a lottery ticket knowing all you can win is a 100 quid.
That's decent really, and I have to say v Norwich would probably create more excitement in terms of football than anything we witnessed yesterday. Hopefully.
Yes, I will probably get one!
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I am not giving up completely. Not even giving up.
We have 5 or 6 senior players with contracts that are coming to an end at the end of this season or next. Our approach to how we handle this will set our destiny for the next 5 years or more. At this point in time we do not seem to be planning for this in a way that is going to take us forward.
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I think the mistake your making is that you are of the impression that people commenting about the vast amounts of money being spent is solely about Man City and in some way you feel its directed at Man City because it is Man City, not so.
Its killing the game mate, not Man City, but the whole concept of overwhelming wealth.
Seriously, do you not think something is wrong in football when many fans psychologically look at the next fixture and see we are playing Man Utd or Man City, Chelsea, and think phuk that not worth throwing the money away on it, I'll wait till we play someone we can actually get a game with.
Yes, it's more than wrong, it's a disaster. I said as much above but my point is that its been going on for years and what I can't understand is why I didn't hear the same arguments when United paid £30 milllion for Ferdinand nearly 10 years ago. Our top signing that season was Tyrone Loran for £60k (although in fairness we did have Anelka at the time and paid about £13m for him prior to that, having to fire-sell him for £9m a year later because we were skint)(I don't think you could afford to sign anybody that season)
Mick McCarthy codified the mindset when he sent out his reserves to play United a couple of seasons ago because he knew they were going to lose and they had a more winnable game the following week. As if it wasn't easy enough for united as it is. The whole idea is so horrible you'd have thought the Premier League would have done something drastic to prevent it happening again but the fact is, they've created a monster they can't control.
Off topic but I think the single most aggravating factor is, that whilst all this is going on, we're all worried about money, redundancy etc (except for the footballers) and shelling out £50+ plus for a match is increasingly out of the question. If you've got kids its a nightmare and that level of cost isn't sustainable in the current climate. For us, Valencia on Tuesday is £25 and a fiver for kids and still won't sell out. Like the players being a fan has ceased to be about loyalty and become a question of economics. That is effecting all clubs, Arsenal's much vaunted 30,000 waiting list has apparently disappeared overnight, and, on the bright side, I reckon PL admission prices will start to fall in the near future.
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Same old same old up there.
Missed the first twenty minutes as some bright spark had shut the A57 and brought Manchester to a halt.
The most entertaining part of the 1st half was the Man City fans fighting amoingst themselves. Their was no tempo from either side.
The second started with Emile missing a sitter and them going up the other end and scoring. Oh well.
Delph gives the ball away far to often, we missed Collins at the back and wee Barry until he came on.
Its the fixture I look forward to least, as we are always pap and get turned over.
Blimey Ads .............you & me agree - that's almost a first mate ..........North Walsall Lions de-bused
in the city centre and the majority walked almost 3 miles but missed 25 minutes which was probably
our best period
Expected the result but extremely disappointed with the overall performance by majority of the team-
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The one thing that does concern me is Darren Bent, it is without question he is one of the best goalscorers in the Premiership, a natural goal poacher, did more than is fair share to keep us up for the business end of last season.
So where is he now, thus far we have been playing mostly average sides this season and he just hasn't figured, its against these sides you would think he would be doing it for fun and on auto.
Go back and look at where Bent's assists came from last season. You could have the best striker in the world but if he is not getting the service he will not score goals. Perhaps not quite true as Messi doesn't seem to need help from anybody.
Couldn't argue with that omvf, good point, the only comment i would make is that he appears to be drifting in and out games, and I would say if Gabby is there for 4 I would expect Bent to have more.
As you say if he's not getting the service, and he's not, then his best asset being a goal poacher goes out the window.
yep. our style doesn't suit him at all. no surprise since we've gone back to a more direct style gabby's returned to form while Bent's gone the other way. I can see AM cashing in on him and getting someone who's more comfortable with our play and probably a few million left over for other area's of the team.
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I don't think it's a matter of our style not suiting him, but rather the players currently in the side. If we had Albrighton and N'Zogbia in and playing well we wouldn't be having this discussion. Plus, he's got 2 goals and missed another couple of very presentable chances, so I don't think it's as big an issue as some make out.
As to the game itself, it was one of those "Yeah, thought so" ones where we didn't really learn a great deal about our side we didn't already know. Started well, but went behind to a good goal. Had we not then conceded a sloppy 2nd who knows how it might have gone, but we did and then had the cushion to be able to turn on the style.
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I don't think it's a matter of our style not suiting him, but rather the players currently in the side. If we had Albrighton and N'Zogbia in and playing well we wouldn't be having this discussion. Plus, he's got 2 goals and missed another couple of very presentable chances, so I don't think it's as big an issue as some make out.
As to the game itself, it was one of those "Yeah, thought so" ones where we didn't really learn a great deal about our side we didn't already know. Started well, but went behind to a good goal. Had we not then conceded a sloppy 2nd who knows how it might have gone, but we did and then had the cushion to be able to turn on the style.
Fair enough summing up, but the overall tone of 'Yeah, thought so' reminds me of the 'What did you expect?' attitude of DOL.
I think we had our real first test of the season, and we came up wanting against of collection of showboaters. Yes we could have the attitude of well, it's a season of consolidation. But a season of consolidation should be followed by growth. I can't see that next season, only more experienced players leaving, replaced perhaps by journeymen.
I could be optimistic if we looked at the Newcastle model, who had a virtual slash and burn but have managed to slowly rebuild. The problem with that is though, they manage to bring in viable foreign players on a budget. If we are only going to concentrate on British or established Premier League players, then I can't see us achieving much. What could we have got by spending that £9 million for N'Zogbia on one or a couple of European prospects?
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Agree, there's no question Newcastle have picked up a couple of gems in Tiote and Cabaye - think both are top class.
We buy Makoun and then farm him out before he's had any chance to settle - very frustrating given the current stat of our midfield.
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Agree, there's no question Newcastle have picked up a couple of gems in Tiote and Cabaye - think both are top class.
We buy Makoun and then farm him out before he's had any chance to settle - very frustrating given the current stat of our midfield.
Getting rid of Makoun was baffling. He hardly had a chance to settle with us.
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Fair enough summing up, but the overall tone of 'Yeah, thought so' reminds me of the 'What did you expect?' attitude of DOL.
I think we had our real first test of the season, and we came up wanting against of collection of showboaters. Yes we could have the attitude of well, it's a season of consolidation. But a season of consolidation should be followed by growth. I can't see that next season, only more experienced players leaving, replaced perhaps by journeymen.
I could be optimistic if we looked at the Newcastle model, who had a virtual slash and burn but have managed to slowly rebuild. The problem with that is though, they manage to bring in viable foreign players on a budget. If we are only going to concentrate on British or established Premier League players, then I can't see us achieving much. What could we have got by spending that £9 million for N'Zogbia on one or a couple of European prospects?
It's one thing to have that attitude after the game and another to have it before/during. I think our attitude was fine and we had a go, but there's no disgrace in admitting afterwards that player for player they are a lot better than us.
As for the Newcastle model, yes there are some points we can take on from them, but I don't see how Makoun fits into that argument. He had games and played relatively poorly to the point where the manager who brought him wasn't playing him. If anything it's a sign we are looking for that 'low cost and comes good' foreigner, it's just that are first go hasn't worke out too well. Time to judge that is probably next summer when the wagebill is further under control and AM has some more freedom to move in the market.
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Mick McCarthy codified the mindset when he sent out his reserves to play United a couple of seasons ago because he knew they were going to lose and they had a more winnable game the following week. As if it wasn't easy enough for united as it is. The whole idea is so horrible you'd have thought the Premier League would have done something drastic to prevent it happening again but the fact is, they've created a monster they can't co
That's very easy to say for you clubs with expensively assembled squads giving you strength in depth. Which, like on Saturday, gives you the opportunity to rest loads of players ahead of big games coming up. If Wolves want to do the same why shouldn't they?
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Fair enough summing up, but the overall tone of 'Yeah, thought so' reminds me of the 'What did you expect?' attitude of DOL.
I think we had our real first test of the season, and we came up wanting against of collection of showboaters. Yes we could have the attitude of well, it's a season of consolidation. But a season of consolidation should be followed by growth. I can't see that next season, only more experienced players leaving, replaced perhaps by journeymen.
I could be optimistic if we looked at the Newcastle model, who had a virtual slash and burn but have managed to slowly rebuild. The problem with that is though, they manage to bring in viable foreign players on a budget. If we are only going to concentrate on British or established Premier League players, then I can't see us achieving much. What could we have got by spending that £9 million for N'Zogbia on one or a couple of European prospects?
It's one thing to have that attitude after the game and another to have it before/during. I think our attitude was fine and we had a go, but there's no disgrace in admitting afterwards that player for player they are a lot better than us.
As for the Newcastle model, yes there are some points we can take on from them, but I don't see how Makoun fits into that argument. He had games and played relatively poorly to the point where the manager who brought him wasn't playing him. If anything it's a sign we are looking for that 'low cost and comes good' foreigner, it's just that are first go hasn't worke out too well. Time to judge that is probably next summer when the wagebill is further under control and AM has some more freedom to move in the market.
Do you really think the manager will have much scope for the transfers next season? Unless we sell, I can't really see where funds will be coming from. Selling 2 players, to buy 2 cheaper players on lower wages does not a squad make.
Makoun was brought into a struggling team, and wasn't really given the chance for half a season before he was moved on. Do you suggest that N'Zogbia be shipped out in January? By then he will have been here half a season. He has also been dropped by the manager who purchased him. Although he, unlike Makoun, has had experience of playing in the EPL.
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Do you really think the manager will have much scope for the transfers next season? Unless we sell, I can't really see where funds will be coming from. Selling 2 players, to buy 2 cheaper players on lower wages does not a squad make.
Makoun was brought into a struggling team, and wasn't really given the chance for half a season before he was moved on. Do you suggest that N'Zogbia be shipped out in January? By then he will have been here half a season. He has also been dropped by the manager who purchased him. Although he, unlike Makoun, has had experience of playing in the EPL.
In a word - yes!
We've heard it a lot, and I for one believe it, that the issue is wages as opposed to fees. By next summer we'll have Beye, Cuellar and Heskey off the bill, although in Heskey's case it may be a matter of staying on reduced wages. That should allow him to get a few players in.
Makoun would still be here if Houllier was manager, so the same will apply with N'Zogbia. I'd imagine Newcastle let a few players go with their managerial changes in the same way we've moved Makoun on.
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I went to the game on saturday, and our wretched performance was nothing to do with 1 team spending 400 million more than the other team. We as a team didnt do the basics right. We defended set pieces like a pub team, we had no shape, no width, we had Heskey playing, who didnt know whether he was playing upfront, midfield or right back. We have Delph who was running around like a headless chicken, and Pertov who in my opinion was finished 2 years ago. There was hardly any running off the ball, there was no passion no leadership and basically no ideas.
A lot of people are saying the game is finished now, with the likes of City and chelsea maybe it has, but that had nothing to do with our performance on saturday. That was pureley down to lazy boneidle villa players led by a limited manager who doesnt seem to be able to motivate his team.
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Do you really think the manager will have much scope for the transfers next season? Unless we sell, I can't really see where funds will be coming from. Selling 2 players, to buy 2 cheaper players on lower wages does not a squad make.
Makoun was brought into a struggling team, and wasn't really given the chance for half a season before he was moved on. Do you suggest that N'Zogbia be shipped out in January? By then he will have been here half a season. He has also been dropped by the manager who purchased him. Although he, unlike Makoun, has had experience of playing in the EPL.
In a word - yes!
We've heard it a lot, and I for one believe it, that the issue is wages as opposed to fees. By next summer we'll have Beye, Cuellar and Heskey off the bill, although in Heskey's case it may be a matter of staying on reduced wages. That should allow him to get a few players in.
Makoun would still be here if Houllier was manager, so the same will apply with N'Zogbia. I'd imagine Newcastle let a few players go with their managerial changes in the same way we've moved Makoun on.
Why do people assume that wages and fees are in some way different?
They're two sides of the same coin.
Randy's desire is for the club to be self supporting, I don't see how transfer fees are going to be considered any different in that respect.
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Why do people assume that wages and fees are in some way different?
They're two sides of the same coin.
Randy's desire is for the club to be self supporting, I don't see how transfer fees are going to be considered any different in that respect.
But surely if they are supposed to be self sustaining, then the recent fees we've recieved, which we could not soend due to wanting to control the wagebill, come into play once there is room?
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Why do people assume that wages and fees are in some way different?
They're two sides of the same coin.
Randy's desire is for the club to be self supporting, I don't see how transfer fees are going to be considered any different in that respect.
But surely if they are supposed to be self sustaining, then the recent fees we've recieved, which we could not soend due to wanting to control the wagebill, come into play once there is room?
What makes you think those fees aren't going to be used to reduce the amount the club had gone into the red on previous spending, though?
Even if we started the counter now, and were to be self sustaining, we'd have very little to spend on transfers.
Not a pop at you, John, but in general I think a lot of people are not listening to what the club are saying, and are convincing themselves that once the wages are down to a more acceptable level of turnover, we'll start spending big again, as if it is just the wages that need sorting.
We're either self sufficient or we're not, and I don't see how there's much room for major transfer spending under self sufficiency.
Paul Faulkner told the SCG meeting that the club has to "be able to survive Randy going under a bus". Having an unsustainable wage bill doesn't fit that measure, but then again, neither does owing tens of millions of pounds in transfer deficit
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It's an interesting point, but as has been argued before, there is a difference between fees and wages in that one is a capital expenditure, so is seen as an asset on the balance sheet, and one simply goes out the door to be spent on Ferraris and lapdancers.
I'm guessing the proof will be in the pudding, but when clubs like Stoke can spend large-ish sums without a sugar daddy I think we can also.
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It's an interesting point, but as has been argued before, there is a difference between fees and wages in that one is a capital expenditure, so is seen as an asset on the balance sheet, and one simply goes out the door to be spent on Ferraris and lapdancers.
I'm guessing the proof will be in the pudding, but when clubs like Stoke can spend large-ish sums without a sugar daddy I think we can also.
I don't think Stoke have had the large expenditure we have had. As such, they have accumulated cash over the past few seasons, and are able to splash a bit now. Villa put a lot of their money up front, expecting it to pay dividends with CL qualification etc. That didn't happen, and now our purse strings are tightened.
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As per Paulie's post, this is supposing the counter is reset and we just need to fund ourselves from now on. Randy may have pumped a lot of money in, but he's also considerably increased the value of his asset (the club) in the process, so that may not be too far from the truth of it.
If you're well run there's enough money in the game (as in from Sky) to be able to go out and buy players.
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It's an interesting point, but as has been argued before, there is a difference between fees and wages in that one is a capital expenditure, so is seen as an asset on the balance sheet, and one simply goes out the door to be spent on Ferraris and lapdancers.
I'm guessing the proof will be in the pudding, but when clubs like Stoke can spend large-ish sums without a sugar daddy I think we can also.
Stoke have a sugar daddy who is probably richer than our sugar daddy and have only spend reasonable amounts in one window, though.
Regardless of players being seen as capital assets, if the club is self sufficient, it implies the money to buy them has to be generated by the club, rather than ploughed in by Randy.
I'd much prefer it didn't, but it is hard to see any other outcome, unfortunately.
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Another issue is, how much capital has been set aside to rebuild the North Stand. Is that a worthwhile venture at this time? This also means the club misses out on income from the Olympics next year.
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Regardless of players being seen as capital assets, if the club is self sufficient, it implies the money to buy them has to be generated by the club, rather than ploughed in by Randy.
I'm not sure I agree with that, Paulie. Having a plan for if Randy falls under a bus implies that it will be different to what happens if he doesn't.
My guess, and that's all it can be, is that money will be still found to fund transfers within the current wage structure as players leave and growth, if there is any, will be funded by improved commercial activity (as per the letter to season ticket holders).
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As per Paulie's post, this is supposing the counter is reset and we just need to fund ourselves from now on. Randy may have pumped a lot of money in, but he's also considerably increased the value of his asset (the club) in the process, so that may not be too far from the truth of it.
He hasn't increased the value of the club though, far from it. Yes, anybody buying the club would getting a more valuable squad of players, but there's also the rather large matter of an awful lot of debt that more than offsets that increase in value. Purely from a net asset point of view, we're not actually worth as much as when Ellis sold us.
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The whole club being self-sustaining is pie in the sky anyway - we're not a club you can run on a shoestring. Ellis tried and we were still making big losses in his last years and this all sounds scarily similar to the crap him and his pals were spouting back then. Only way we willl become self-sustaining is through increased revenue and the only way you get increased revenue is bigger crowds, more tv games, more prize money and more merchandise sold. None of those things are possible without success on the field and with the current squad - no chance.
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As per Paulie's post, this is supposing the counter is reset and we just need to fund ourselves from now on. Randy may have pumped a lot of money in, but he's also considerably increased the value of his asset (the club) in the process, so that may not be too far from the truth of it.
He hasn't increased the value of the club though, far from it. Yes, anybody buying the club would getting a more valuable squad of players, but there's also the rather large matter of an awful lot of debt that more than offsets that increase in value. Purely from a net asset point of view, we're not actually worth as much as when Ellis sold us.
Is that fact or opinion? My guess is it would only become a fact if/when the club were to be sold. I understand the argument that debt would offset some of the added value Randy has generated, but then you also have the more lucrative TV deals now in place, which should again add to the value.
As I said, it's pretty accademic unless Randy wishes to sell, but I'd be surprised if the club hadn't at least held it's value.