| Team Average Borussia Dortmund 79,250 Bayern Munich 69,000 Schalke 04 61,248 Hamburg SV 54,445 FC Cologne 47,752 Eintracht Frankfurt 47,335 Kaiserslautern 46,378 Borussia Monchen 45,676 Hannover 96 43,948 Nurnberg 42,019 VfB Stuttgart 38,847 Werder Bremen 37,464 TSG Hoffenheim 29,858 VfL Wolfsburg 28,909 Bayer Leverkusen 28,627 St Pauli 24,274 SC Freiburg 23,047 Mainz 20,17 |
4 different champions in last 5 seasons including 2 'lesser' clubs (as determined by lower attendances).sorry pestria,we said the same thing at the same time
Lower ticket prices.
Standing.
4 different champions in last 5 seasons including 2 'lesser' clubs (as determined by lower attendances).
Lower ticket prices.
Standing.
Agree with most of thisIf I could afford it I would come regardless of how successful we are.
People will come and watch us if:
It is reasonably priced
We are successful
We play good exciting football
i read all the bollocks last week as to why we don't get a greater diversity of ethicities through the gates, well if we won something and built on that success we would.
we were.
Agree with most of thisYou haven't noticed that it isn't just AV that's suffering with falling attendance figures then?
People will come and watch us if:
It is reasonably priced
We are successful
We play good exciting football
i read all the bollocks last week as to why we don't get a greater diversity of ethicities through the gates, well if we won something and built on that success we would.
The sad truth is that the Germans do most things better than everybody else and wont have the piss taken out of them.
They may not have the top stars in football (although the standard is good or very good) but the Bundesliga is still about the fans and hasn't disappeared up its own bloated arsehole.
Definitely an example to follow.
I wish we could follow the Bundesliga's way of doing things full houses would be a start with a cracking atmosphere would inspire our players.Thats a very good point. Clubs do a lot with fans with the emphasis on atmosphere and match day experience. Think that really does have a positive effect on the players.
The sad truth is that the Germans do most things better than everybody else and wont have the piss taken out of them.
They may not have the top stars in football (although the standard is good or very good) but the Bundesliga is still about the fans and hasn't disappeared up its own bloated arsehole.
Definitely an example to follow.
this...
Ticket prices are the main thing.
I'd love it if one PL club had the balls to give it a go. Not just the occasional two adults for 40 quid style thing we see, but the whole season, saying "right, these are the prices" and cutting them to the bone.
I'm sure the bigwigs at the PL would point to how well English clubs do in the CL as proof our ticket prices have a positive outcome in their role in money in the game, but bar the four champions league clubs, nobody else gets anything out of it.
Yes but isn't it because there stadiums are massive modern affairs, they earn way more, far less of there total income is taken by the state
Ticket prices are the main thing.
I'd love it if one PL club had the balls to give it a go. Not just the occasional two adults for 40 quid style thing we see, but the whole season, saying "right, these are the prices" and cutting them to the bone.
I'm sure the bigwigs at the PL would point to how well English clubs do in the CL as proof our ticket prices have a positive outcome in their role in money in the game, but bar the four champions league clubs, nobody else gets anything out of it.
I was listening to a report about this on five live the other week. Their pricing policy is low for the ordinary fan because they ensure the corporates pay absolutely through nose for exec boxes etc. We should absolutely do the same in my view.
If you could pay £12 to stand and have a nice tram take you to VP for free, I could see us full most games. Other considerations: do the Germans have a lot of games on and moved times for Sky?
Agree with most of thisIf I could afford it I would come regardless of how successful we are.
People will come and watch us if:
It is reasonably priced
We are successful
We play good exciting football
i read all the bollocks last week as to why we don't get a greater diversity of ethicities through the gates, well if we won something and built on that success we would.
we were.
Bundesliga Vs The Premiership; strangers or brothers?
Speak to football fans in England about the Bundesliga and the majority of them will have no knowledge of the teams, or even what is currently going on (with the exception maybe of Bayern Munich's Champions League progress). This may not seem a particularly striking fact as knowledge of most leagues around Europe is poor. People tend to hold the opinion that the Premier League (PL) is the best league - so why bother watching others. However, a look into German football reveals that it is infact very similar to English football and the PL in many ways.
English fans are often considered by many (mainly by English people), to be the most passionate in Europe, although the Germans are certainly capable of at least matching them. The Bundesliga is currently the most well supported league in Europe with an average attendance of around 38,000 , a figure over twice that of current PL club Wigan Athletics average. Last years league champions Borissia Dortmund also achieved the second highest average attendance in Europe with over 80,000, only bettered by Barcelona.
Tune in to any Bundesliga game and you'll instantly be struck by the passion and colour on display from banners, scarves and costumes. Something not really seen so often in England, particularly since the large hike in ticket prices etc, possibly with the exception of Anfield on a flag day ( although they may argue they are not English - they are Scouse.)
On the pitch the styles are also very similar. Unlike the majority of European leagues the Bundesliga and the PL are very physical leagues. A fact backed up by the two leagues recording some of the highest fouls per game ratio's of the top European leagues - even with La Liga's inclination for 'simulation'. The game is also played at a similar frantic pace, something foreign to the other European leagues who would consider themselves to adopt a more 'calculated' approach.
The similarities with the two leagues should lend itself to the idea that player acquisitions between respective clubs should be fairly successful. However, perhaps strangely, there is a limited amount of history of clubs from these leagues conducting business - in comparison to the other western European leagues such as La Liga, Ligue 1, Serie A. However, the transfers of players such as Markus Babbel, Michael Ballack or even Kevin Keegan to some extent can point to the fact that on the occasions business is done, the transition between leagues is a strong one.
Although there are many examples of these leagues being alike, there is one major difference. The way clubs are run at board/ownership level is completely different. In England there is currently a scramble for the worlds richest to buy PL clubs, in recent years there have been takeover deals involving over a third of PL clubs, the most lucrative owners being Manchester City's sheiks - who have constantly pumped in hundreds of millions of pounds for a shot at success. Unfortunately there is a downside though, the recent demand for PL clubs is a fairly new phenomenon and rules were not set in place early enough to prevent poorly run companies and owners from seizing control of clubs purely for their own commercial benefit. Perfect examples of this are Portsmouth's ownership debacle which eventually sent the club into administration, and Liverpool's 2007 takeover which also bled the club dry - something they are only recovering from now.
In stark contrast to this, 'outside' parties can only buy a maximum of 49% of a club in the Bundesliga - with at least 51% having to be member owned (fan owned). This essentially means that funds generated should be going straight back into the club and not servicing any owner or takeover/ leveraged buyout debts, as well as ensuring that aspects such as ticket prices are kept at a lower premium. In essence, the supporters have a controlling say in the club, meaning so long as they have the clubs interest at heart it is unlikely to encounter the risk of mismanagement (unlike PL teams).
With UEFA Financial Fair Play (UFFP) rules due to be introduced in the near future requiring all clubs to eventually 'live within their means', operating at a very small loss at worst, fans of PL clubs may soon wish that 'member' ownership was another similarity between the leagues - not a difference.
Written by Chris Martin
I don't really think the population has a great deal to do with it, to be honest.
Also, if you look at German attendances pre 2006, they were already pretty enormous.
There's no shortage of interest in the game in this country, but the prices are truly horrendous.
I don't really think the population has a great deal to do with it, to be honest.
It's not the only factor but it will have some bearing on it especialy as we also have Rugby in its two forms viying for business.
I agree the prices are way over the top and are the main factor bearing on reduced attendances but other factors can not be discounted.
Yes but isn't it because there stadiums are massive modern affairs, they earn way more, far less of there total income is taken by the state
Errr, having lived and worked in Germany for eight years in total, I can promise you that this is not true. You pay a lot in unemployment/health/care/pensions insurance in Germany on top of a standard income tax rate that's similar to ours. As an ordinary employee, you end up with somewhere in the region of 55% net after all the deductions. I used to say that you got what you paid for in terms of the quality of healthcare and benefits, but they started to hack away at these during the last SPD (similar to New Labour) government. So now you have the shocking situation where you pay all that money and still have to fork out 10 euro a quarter just to see your GP. Unemployment benefit has been slashed as well from what used to be very generous levels. On the other hand, you don't pay council tax, so the ultimate tax take might work out to be similar once you've added in what we pay here in national insurance and the rest of it.
The main thing is they still have standing almost everywhere (seat prices aren't necessarily cheap in Germany), clubs have a social conscience on the whole and realise that to ensure they're still around in 20 years' time they need to encourage the younger generation to come along. And with the Bundesliga so open, the football's far more interesting.
Is it also not the case (from what I've been told) there culture is not so heavily dependent on credit, IE the average German would not consider the use of a Credit Card in the almost addicted way that his counterpart in the UK has to, to survive.
Sky almost have their perfect product to sell now. The dominance of a handfull of teams, including the most marketable of all in Newton Heath has created their ideal customer. No connection at all to the clubs only a fascination with success nurtured from childhood through the screen, now parting with money to keep up their support through subscription.
Gary Neville has not been recruited for his media skills but for his identification with the most marketable club, another well considered strategy.
The rest of the Premier League exist as cannon fodder for the rich and powerfull, and while attendances droop for the visit of Wigan and Stoke, they will rise for televised games against the top clubs satifying the demand for atmosphere so craved by the TV execs.
The coverage afforded to the lesser teams is nothing more than lip service to ensure they feel part of the whole shebang, when in reality they are turkeys being plumped up for Christmas slaughter. Live in HD.
While the TV companies pay the money they will call the tune, and there is nothing anybody can do. Apart from refusing to be any part of the whole rotten process. But Sky know damn well that, for many of us, it's a question of loyalty to the club that we have grown up with.
They have the game by the balls.
The "best league in the world" nonsense we hear spouted all the time is just that - utter nonsense.
It is without a doubt the best marketed league in the world, but that's a different matter altogether.
I don't really think the population has a great deal to do with it, to be honest.
It's not the only factor but it will have some bearing on it especialy as we also have Rugby in its two forms viying for business.
I agree the prices are way over the top and are the main factor bearing on reduced attendances but other factors can not be discounted.
I'm not sure that it seriously contributes, either. Italy has a population roughly equivalent to the UK (around the 60 million mark) and yet average attendances here are much lower - 23,940 (http://soccernet.espn.go.com/stats/attendance/_/league/ita.1/italian-serie-a?cc=5739) in Serie A so far this season, compared to 33,779 (http://soccernet.espn.go.com/stats/attendance/_/league/eng.1/barclays-premier-league?cc=5739) for the Premier League. Yes, this is only for the season so far, but, in general, attendances are significantly lower here.
Having said that, when comparing it with the Bundesliga, I suppose that the fact that it is the English Premier League - therefore with a population in the region of 51 million - should be considered. The difference between 80 million and 50 million is more significant.
I don't like the thrust of this thread, Oswald Mosely was a great admirer of the German way of doing things.
I don't like the thrust of this thread, Oswald Mosely was a great admirer of the German way of doing things.
That is childish and incredibly offensive. Are you suggesting I'm some sort of apologist for fascism? Or just trying to be amusing?
:D Bastard!I don't like the thrust of this thread, Oswald Mosely was a great admirer of the German way of doing things.
That is childish and incredibly offensive. Are you suggesting I'm some sort of apologist for fascism? Or just trying to be amusing?
Oh deary me, we do take ourselves seriously don't we?
It was just a daft throwaway remark, nothing for you to invade Poland over.
Scotland and Albania have the highest proportain of people who attend games
Is it also not the case (from what I've been told) there culture is not so heavily dependent on credit, IE the average German would not consider the use of a Credit Card in the almost addicted way that his counterpart in the UK has to, to survive.
You don't have to use cards to survive. Too many people use cards to buy luxuries they can't afford and which they've been hyped into believing are essentials.
Got it in one Lizz, except maybe I'd change the word from some to most.Is it also not the case (from what I've been told) there culture is not so heavily dependent on credit, IE the average German would not consider the use of a Credit Card in the almost addicted way that his counterpart in the UK has to, to survive.
You don't have to use cards to survive. Too many people use cards to buy luxuries they can't afford and which they've been hyped into believing are essentials.
Quite. The pursuit of instant gratification seems to rule some peoples' lives.
Villa, Forest and Everton came from nowhere to win the league. That'll never happen again unless something drastic happens.
Ticket prices are the main thing.
I'd love it if one PL club had the balls to give it a go. Not just the occasional two adults for 40 quid style thing we see, but the whole season, saying "right, these are the prices" and cutting them to the bone.
I'm sure the bigwigs at the PL would point to how well English clubs do in the CL as proof our ticket prices have a positive outcome in their role in money in the game, but bar the four champions league clubs, nobody else gets anything out of it.
We’ve been very quick to point and laugh at the farcical nature of the SPL when affectively you could scrap the league and just get Rangers and Celtic to play each other 4 times a year to decide the title. However, here we are now in a situation where as the years go by, we edge closer to an English version. A league where 3 űber rich teams hoover up all the best players and kill competition before its even started. Even if we reduce ticket prices to Bundesliga levels (which we obviously can’t unless the players opt for at least a 50% wage cut) the gap and inequity of money would still not be enough to fill the void.
The monstrous, bloated, over-hyped product that is the Premier League is disappearing up its own ars* while we the loyal fans, emotionally tied to Villa, are forced to watch us getting humiliated live on Sky to the great pleasure of a growing band of armchair fans driven wild by the relentless advertising of the product.
Where’s the pleasure in this? Where’s the fun in forking out more than most supporters in Europe to watch the team you love be treated as cannon fodder? Why is that you can almost sense the contempt from Sky when they have to cover a match involving anyone outside the Sky4?
Sky almost have their perfect product to sell now. The dominance of a handfull of teams, including the most marketable of all in Newton Heath has created their ideal customer. No connection at all to the clubs only a fascination with success nurtured from childhood through the screen, now parting with money to keep up their support through subscription.
Gary Neville has not been recruited for his media skills but for his identification with the most marketable club, another well considered strategy.
The rest of the Premier League exist as cannon fodder for the rich and powerfull, and while attendances droop for the visit of Wigan and Stoke, they will rise for televised games against the top clubs satifying the demand for atmosphere so craved by the TV execs.
The coverage afforded to the lesser teams is nothing more than lip service to ensure they feel part of the whole shebang, when in reality they are turkeys being plumped up for Christmas slaughter. Live in HD.
While the TV companies pay the money they will call the tune, and there is nothing anybody can do. Apart from refusing to be any part of the whole rotten process. But Sky know damn well that, for many of us, it's a question of loyalty to the club that we have grown up with.
They have the game by the balls.
We’ve been very quick to point and laugh at the farcical nature of the SPL when affectively you could scrap the league and just get Rangers and Celtic to play each other 4 times a year to decide the title. However, here we are now in a situation where as the years go by, we edge closer to an English version. A league where 3 űber rich teams hoover up all the best players and kill competition before its even started.
i don't follow the Bundesliga but will take other's word thats its more competitivie and more open. but the stamp of how good a countries national league is how they do in the European cup and unfortunately they haven't won it in 10 years with only 2 different teams making it to the final in that period. Compare that to the PL who've won it twice in that period with 4 different teams getting to the final. To me that says you've got a lot of average sides all of the same standard rather than a lot of quality sides who can take on the best. Ideally you'd want a league where its competitive AND they win in Europe but i'm not sure how you go about that to be honest.
I don't know for certain but I'm fairly sure that English football has also got significantly more 'meaningful' tiers of divisions than our European counterparts. I'm sure I read/heard somewhere that in England more people per capita attend football matches than any other European country. That's a more important and healthy statistic for English football than purely focusing on the top flight as the be all it makes it self out.
A revolution is needed. I read recently that Sevilla's owner was getting together a group of Spanish clubs to try and mitigate the massive financial advantages the big 2 have over there, which makes the others also rans before a ball is kicked. Unfortunatley the cannon fodder clubs here are all getting loads of Sky money and seem unwilling to risk it by getting together and pulling out of the PL and forming their own league on a fairer basis.
Not such fair play from Bayern's stopper Neuer and all his money talk
By MARTIN SAMUEL
When the inevitable moment came, Bayern Munich goalkeeper Manuel Neuer was diplomatic, yet effortlessly on-message.
Asked to assess the Champions League tie between Bayern and Manchester City in financial fair play terms, a battle between the old European order and its evil usurper, new money, Neuer instinctively assumed an air of superiority.
‘I think every club has its own philosophy and I can only speak of ours, which is to get in a lot of good young German players,’ he said. ‘They go with the good German players that are already here and as you can see it seems to work very well for us.’
He made it sound so noble, so altruistic, almost a national calling. The reality is a very rich club, with wealth established over many decades, solving their problems by throwing money around.
Bayern Munich are a great club but, like those other self-proclaimed saints of the modern game in Europe, Barcelona, is it not as if they operate on a superior moral plane once that pretence is stripped away.
Take the arrival of Neuer. He is not Munich’s own but a product of the youth system at Schalke 04 in Gelsenkirchen, where he made more than 200 appearances for Under 23 and first teams before announcing he would not renew his contract, which expired at the end of the 2011-12 season.
Despite interest from abroad, notably Manchester United, Neuer made it clear that his preferred destination was Munich. With Schalke forced to sell a year early rather than let their prime asset go for free, a fee was agreed of roughly £18million, making him the third most expensive goalkeeper of all time.
That Munich were able to pay this, rather than wait 12 months and sign Neuer for nothing, did not pass without comment in Germany. Rudi Voller, sporting director at Bayer Leverkusen, drew comparison with the most powerful clubs in Spain.
‘We should not close our eyes when it comes to Munich’s financial strength,’ he said. ‘They purchase a goalkeeper for nearly £20m and he only has a one-year contract with Schalke. Not even Real Madrid have done such a thing.’
It is the shape of things to come in German football. There is a reason Karl-Heinz Rummenigge, Bayern’s chief executive officer, is such an eager advocate of UEFA’s financial fair play laws. When the dust settles after their implementation, Bayern Munich will quite probably be the most powerful club in European football.
The economic powerhouse team of the economic powerhouse country, creating revenue that will eclipse the spending power of every rival, certainly inside Germany, but possibly beyond.
Bayern Munich’s defence has been outstanding this season. Since their loss to Borussia Monchengladbach on the opening day of the Bundesliga campaign, they have played nine games in all competitions and scored 26 goals without conceding once. Much of the defensive strength has been due to the form of goalkeeper Manuel Neuer, the 25-year-old Germany No 1 signed from Schalke 04 in the summer.
The most recent European money list made Bayern Munich a top-four club, but that does not tell the whole story. Bayern’s commercial revenues alone, minus prize money or transfer profits, are substantial enough to have justified a place in the top 10.
In 2009-10, when the last figures were published, they earned £150m commercially - more than the entire revenue stream at Manchester City, or even at a Champions League regular such as Olympique Lyonnais of France. Their nearest commercial rival in Europe would be Real Madrid, who earn £17.3m less. Manchester United, with the greatest commercial revenue in the Premier League, trail Munich by £63.91m.
Manchester City represent a different model to the one employed at the Allianz Arena
Sponsorship and marketing make up just under half of Munich’s total commercial pot, bringing in £72m, mainly due to the benefits of being not just the biggest club in Germany, but the only Bundesliga club with a global profile.
Munich have a unique selling point and their commercial tie-ups are blue chip: Deutsche Telekom, Audi, adidas. The Deutsche Telekom shirt sponsorship was the most lucrative in Europe until Barcelona struck oil in Qatar.
So what is the long-term plan? Bayern Munich financial director Karl Hopfner claims that Munich are financial fair play compliant now and within five years could be in a position to spend the £80m that Real Madrid paid Manchester United for Cristiano Ronaldo. Munich’s reputation is for conservatism in the transfer market. Flexing their muscles as the financial superpower of the European game, that could be about to change.
‘There is generally no limit for transfers,’ said Hopfner. ‘But there may be a psychological barrier. Yet why should we put a limit?
‘The first thing we must ask ourselves is whether we should bring an £80m player and whether we can afford him. Currently, we cannot do that, because it would breach financial fair play rules. However, who knows how things will stand in five years?’
This is what is driving Rummenigge’s campaign to have the new regulations enforced vigorously. Unless clubs such as Manchester United can almost double commercial revenue streams, all that stands in Munich’s way is outside investment at an emerging rival such as Manchester City.
If Rummenigge, in his position as acting chairman of the European Club Association, can successfully lobby to have City tied up in knots by UEFA, Munich’s elevation will be as good as unopposed.
‘It is not just about Manchester City, there are teams in other countries with debts, like Real Madrid, Barcelona and Valencia,’ said Jupp Heynckes, the Munich coach.
‘What I would say is Munich is very economically sound, very intelligent and they have proved with the way they have managed their business that this can make a club very successful on the pitch.’
A record that saw Munich last lose a game or concede a goal on August 7 is evidence of that. If the club can get their way with UEFA’s help, however, the golden era is only just beginning.
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I don't know for certain but I'm fairly sure that English football has also got significantly more 'meaningful' tiers of divisions than our European counterparts. I'm sure I read/heard somewhere that in England more people per capita attend football matches than any other European country. That's a more important and healthy statistic for English football than purely focusing on the top flight as the be all it makes it self out.