Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: KRS on September 04, 2011, 07:46:47 PM
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Looks like 2 of our most influential players, Bent (groin) and Given (back), are already carrying knocks just a few games into the season. Bent has been sent home and Given may miss the next international match.
Hope they are fit for next weekend but not a good sign if they are already carrying unjuries going into games.
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Let's just hope it's a bit of 'Ryanitus'
(as in the mysterious short term injury that would affect Ryan Giggs prior to a Wales match)
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The Bent one is a bit concerning now. As he's now going to miss the Wales game says there is something wrong. It seems his only way into the Euro 12 team is to impress for England, especially if the Wolves game is anything to go by, so can't see any reason apart from a serious injury for him to pull out.
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The Given injury is equally serious.... damaged groin in the Fulham game and has not been right since. Unable to kick ball with his right foot and poor with the left.
Imaging having to resort to Brad Guzan and our next reserve keeper as we enter a more challenging phase of the league programme !!
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He was sent home by the England medical team so it must be serious, he didnt pull out of the squad
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Lets hope Given get fit for Everton, that said, when we signed him it was always going to be the catalyst where this player was concerned, always going to be a risk, so I assume the club have made the necessary back plans to cover for this very occasion......I would hope.
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The Given injury is equally serious.... damaged groin in the Fulham game and has not been right since. Unable to kick ball with his right foot and poor with the left.
Imaging having to resort to Brad Guzan and our next reserve keeper as we enter a more challenging phase of the league programme !!
True, but who on Earth is going to go up front? If the plan is transform Heskey and Gabby into midfielders, then chopping and changing the positions is going to cause problems. Yes Jenas can drop in and allow one of them to go upfront, but Hesley's not going to score regularly, but Gabby up front to rely on for goals? Or Nathan D? Is he up to it, yet?
So that's unpredictable upfront, unpredictable in goal, and a hodge podge midfield. I suppose the defence is sorted though!!
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The Given injury is equally serious.... damaged groin in the Fulham game and has not been right since. Unable to kick ball with his right foot and poor with the left.
Imaging having to resort to Brad Guzan and our next reserve keeper as we enter a more challenging phase of the league programme !!
True, but who on Earth is going to go up front? If the plan is transform Heskey and Gabby into midfielders, then chopping and changing the positions is going to cause problems. Yes Jenas can drop in and allow one of them to go upfront, but Hesley's not going to score regularly, but Gabby up front to rely on for goals? Or Nathan D? Is he up to it, yet?
So that's unpredictable upfront, unpredictable in goal, and a hodge podge midfield. I suppose the defence is sorted though!!
Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't Bent been pulled from the England squad, if so he'll be fine I would imagine, if not I would have no hesitation in playing Gabby up front on his own, done that job for seasons under Mon and did a great job, as you say Jenas can drop into midfield, in actual fact as a lone striker Gabby is probably better suited to that role than Bent who definitely needs someone to play of to get anything from him, whereas Gabby has much superior pace so playing away from home if we have to go for some opportunistic counter attacking, who better than Gabby and combined with Jenas, N'Zogbia, Banan, Albrighton, pace in abudance.
Win win situation, :) although I have this one chalked up as a tight loss.... :(
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The Given injury is equally serious.... damaged groin in the Fulham game and has not been right since. Unable to kick ball with his right foot and poor with the left.
Imaging having to resort to Brad Guzan and our next reserve keeper as we enter a more challenging phase of the league programme !!
Givens previous injury problem was his shoulder but now its his back apparently. Did he injure his groin against Fulham too? Both groin and back injuries would explain why Collins has been taking goal kicks.
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GA is a perfect replacement upfront in a 4-2-3-1. keep the faith.
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The concelation with the GK situation is that our defence seems to be so strong that we haven't had to worry too much about Givens injury, only from goalkicks.
I only recall him making one save at Villa Park so far
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It's too early to panic just yet although Given has struggled in the first two games. Let's hope he just needs a rest
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I'm not too worried about Bent's injury. We can just move Lionel Heskey up to the strikers position
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If Bent is out his place upfront can be taken by one of our other joint leading scorers this season Gabby or Emile!
Shay out no problem Brad is ready.
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Gabby is a more than capable top half of the Premier League striker. We've just blessed with a better one. We'll do fine with Gabs for an extended period, just better with Bent.
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True Gabby was a prolific goal scorer, but he was used as a winger for virtually all of last season, scoring 1 in 8 in the Premier League, and for the start of this, so expecting him to fit nicely back into a striker role may not be he easy answer to all our questions.
That said, the main benefit of him playing compared to Bent, is that at least he will drop into midfield to pick the ball up.
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GA is a perfect replacement upfront in a 4-2-3-1. keep the faith.
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Let's hope Bent and Given are fit for Everton on saturday.
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Let's hope Bent and Given are fit for Everton on saturday.
We can only hope. I'm happy Bent didn't feature in Bulgaria, we need him fit. But then again we also need to get the ball to him ;D
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I would think Gabby would slot in, with Ireland coming in for Bent and Heskey left, NZogbia right.
Given, if he needs 2-3 games out to get it right should be given it. His fitness is vital long term, but Guzan is a decent keeper.
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Gabby's played a lot of his best football for us as the one upfront so I reckon he'd be upfront against Everton with maybe Bannan coming in as the third central midfielder.
We'll lose up there if McLeish goes with just Heskey upfront.
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Given has just been named in the ROI team to face Russia
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I hate these international call ups - with our 'small' squad they are a nightmare! Thanks for squad depth Randy!
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I bet they both start on Saturday
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I hate these international call ups - with our 'small' squad they are a nightmare! Thanks for squad depth Randy!
26 man first team squad. How just how big a squad do you want?
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GA is a perfect replacement upfront in a 4-2-3-1. keep the faith.
spot on gabby as the 1 in 4-2-3-1 be ideal
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Given shouldnt be playing. He looks clearly injured and isnt moving as sprightly as he should. Definitely uncomfortable kicking the ball. Id say an operation and a lay off is in the offing.
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Has our official 25 man squad been named for the season (presumably done after the transfer window)?
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Bent has averaged a goal every other game for Villa & Gabby 1 in 3.7.
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Has our official 25 man squad been named for the season (presumably done after the transfer window)?
Yes. 23 players in it, but other reserve players like Gardner are eligible to play.
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Bent has averaged a goal every other game for Villa & Gabby 1 in 3.7.
Bent hasn't completed one season yet, Gabby has completed 4/5, Gabby spent the whole of last season out of position or injured, whilst Bent has been afforded the luxury of consistency by both Houllier and McLiesh in what he has to do in his work.........stick Bent out on the left wing and see how fast his goal ratio drops through the floor........Even so by the end of this season you'll be seeing a very different goal ratio from Darren Bent, hope I'm wrong because if Bent is keeping up that ratio then that would mean we are at least challenging to win games, somehow I doubt it.
You can no sooner compare stats on Gabby v Bent any more than you can judge them to be similar players, both very different other than they are attacking players.
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I'd be less concerned about Given if he wasn't passed fit for tonight funnily enough.
I think there is every chance that they might be forcing him to play even though he is not 100% and that might risk aggravating the injury and meaning he won't be fit for Everton. If he wasn't he'd have a week resting which would put him in a better position for the game.
What is worrying is that this groin injury is another injury from the one we were sweating on when we signed him.
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I hate these international call ups - with our 'small' squad they are a nightmare! Thanks for squad depth Randy!
26 man first team squad. How just how big a squad do you want?
I want a squad full of quality. So you think the 'quality' is equal to the last couple seasons?? When you replace quality with mediocrity the performance levels drop which means you slide down the table - pain and simple!
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Don't know if it's been mentioned but Hutton's not playing for Scotland due to a groin injury.
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Don't know if it's been mentioned but Hutton's not playing for Scotland due to a groin injury.
Even if Hutton was fit to play Herd should not be dropped to make way for him.
I like the look of Herd.
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Bent has averaged a goal every other game for Villa & Gabby 1 in 3.7.
Bent hasn't completed one season yet, Gabby has completed 4/5, Gabby spent the whole of last season out of position or injured, whilst Bent has been afforded the luxury of consistency by both Houllier and McLiesh in what he has to do in his work.........stick Bent out on the left wing and see how fast his goal ratio drops through the floor........Even so by the end of this season you'll be seeing a very different goal ratio from Darren Bent, hope I'm wrong because if Bent is keeping up that ratio then that would mean we are at least challenging to win games, somehow I doubt it.
You can no sooner compare stats on Gabby v Bent any more than you can judge them to be similar players, both very different other than they are attacking players.
Not a fan of Darren then?
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What are they doing at Villa Park to have so many groin strains? Gabby was out with one recently I think (not surprising perhaps) now Bent is sent home from the England camp and Given is struggling with the Republic. It seems to be infectious because Hutton is out of tonight's Scotland match for the same reason and he only visited Bodymoor briefly for a medical and to sign a contract.
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Don't know if it's been mentioned but Hutton's not playing for Scotland due to a groin injury.
Even if Hutton was fit to play Herd should not be dropped to make way for him.
I like the look of Herd.
It would be risky playing Hutton as Saturday was his 1st game of the season and he maybe carrying an injury and Herd looked good v Wolves
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Given is taking goal kicks with no apparent difficulty.
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Dunne picked up bad looking facial injury, maybe concussion as well
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Dunne's been fantastic for Ireland today. Back to his best.
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Another great save from Given
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Dunne being given lot of credit for the 0-0 draw by the pundits.
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Another great save from Given
Yes he is even good with his knees!
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Given will turn out to be signing of the season. I'd put money on it.
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Bent has averaged a goal every other game for Villa & Gabby 1 in 3.7.
Bent hasn't completed one season yet, Gabby has completed 4/5, Gabby spent the whole of last season out of position or injured, whilst Bent has been afforded the luxury of consistency by both Houllier and McLiesh in what he has to do in his work.........stick Bent out on the left wing and see how fast his goal ratio drops through the floor........Even so by the end of this season you'll be seeing a very different goal ratio from Darren Bent, hope I'm wrong because if Bent is keeping up that ratio then that would mean we are at least challenging to win games, somehow I doubt it.
You can no sooner compare stats on Gabby v Bent any more than you can judge them to be similar players, both very different other than they are attacking players.
Not a fan of Darren then?
No problem whatsoever with Darren Bent, solid player, when he's done his tour of duty and earned his stripes as Gabby has and scored his 20+ this season as his 20ML+ figure commands then I will lavish hype on him, not yet though, he's got some work to do...
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Personally I think you're being a bit harsh on Bent. I see what you're saying regarding earning his stripes compared to Gabby but Bent's record speaks for itself... It's not like we signed Andy Carrol for £35 million
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He's saved our season, be grateful.
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Not that i want to speak for Villanation, but take it easy villadelph.
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Not that i want to speak for Villanation, but take it easy villadelph.
Edited, apologies.
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To me the groin injury is football's equivalent of I can't do swimming cos of my period excuse.
If I remember Andy Gray suffered a lot of this type of injury prior to his departure from the club.....
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To me the groin injury is football's equivalent of I can't do swimming cos of my period excuse.
If I remember Andy Gray suffered a lot of this type of injury prior to his departure from the club.....
I completely disagree. While a groin strain/pull is not the most serious injury, it is one of those injuries that never goes away. Just when you think you're over it, it springs back up. I'm confident he can play through it, but I want him to be at full health also.
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Bent trained today apparently...........
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To me the groin injury is football's equivalent of I can't do swimming cos of my period excuse.
If I remember Andy Gray suffered a lot of this type of injury prior to his departure from the club.....
Having just come back from the hospital with the boy who strained his groin playing football this morning I can confirm it hurts like feck. The poor lad was white as a sheet andin agony for hours while we waited for a paramedic to get there. 4-6 weeks before he can play sport, so no it's not a made up injury.
Another gripe why can't schools administer pain killers anymore?? Ridiculous.
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To me the groin injury is football's equivalent of I can't do swimming cos of my period excuse.
Sorry, that's complete rubbish
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You are missing my point...whilst agreeing a groin injury can be painful ..I know I've had one...it can also be a very useful excuse type of injury....dont remember Gray having too many problems after he left
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He's probably trying to rest so that he can stay fit for the Everton game.
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Bent has averaged a goal every other game for Villa & Gabby 1 in 3.7.
Bent hasn't completed one season yet, Gabby has completed 4/5, Gabby spent the whole of last season out of position or injured, whilst Bent has been afforded the luxury of consistency by both Houllier and McLiesh in what he has to do in his work.........stick Bent out on the left wing and see how fast his goal ratio drops through the floor........Even so by the end of this season you'll be seeing a very different goal ratio from Darren Bent, hope I'm wrong because if Bent is keeping up that ratio then that would mean we are at least challenging to win games, somehow I doubt it.
You can no sooner compare stats on Gabby v Bent any more than you can judge them to be similar players, both very different other than they are attacking players.
Not a fan of Darren then?
No problem whatsoever with Darren Bent, solid player, when he's done his tour of duty and earned his stripes as Gabby has and scored his 20+ this season as his 20ML+ figure commands then I will lavish hype on him, not yet though, he's got some work to do...
blimey. I love Gabby as much as the next bloke, but that's utter madness, with all due respect. Gabby's has a lot of strengths that go unappreciated, but he's not in the same league, or even the one below when it comes to being a pure striker like Bent. There's only a few players who have ever been as prolific and you can count them on one hand. And all of those played for much better sides.
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@TVilla. Your missing my point Toronto Villa, Just because Darren Bent as performed for other clubs and in front of other teams doesn't for one second mean he will perform that way in front of a Villa midfield, how many top players can you think of that go to other clubs with sparkling reputations, even World Class to be proved near useless, ever heard of Torres. I am saying that Darren Bent's job just got a lot harder and for all the stat heads out there, you'll be getting a completely different appraisal of the player, assuming he hasn't got p*ssed of with it and stuck himself on the transfer list, which he's well capable of doing.
As for my point about Gabby, he's only ever kicked a ball for Villa and in front of a Villa team (other than U21+ a full cap) how can you compare player for player in terms of there stat's, that is of course unless you are prepared to see Darren Bent stuck out wide left for the next season and then see how his goal tally compares, yes Darren Bent is a more traditional goal poacher front man and thus a more natural goal scorer, doesn't mean for one second other teams won't adapt and deal with him, but to say one player is simply not in the other players league when it comes to goal scoring, when the one player doesn't even play there any more is a nonsense, and if that's the case then I dare say if I'm correct you be back on here at season end if Bent has only notched up 15/16 goals for the season you'll be saying he's not a good striker after all and we need to get someone better.
And for the 1 or 2 paranoid posters I'm not having a pop at Darren Bent, wonderful striker, but how many times do you see deluded footy fans dream up this crazy idea's of what a player is capable of only to see it shot down in flames the next season.
Was actually reading on a Chelsea thread about Torres, when they paid 50ML for him he was not only better than Messi he was world No1, now they are saying how friggin useless he is and he is a complete waste of money and should have been sold in the summer
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@TVilla. Your missing my point Toronto Villa, Just because Darren Bent as performed for other clubs and in front of other teams doesn't for one second mean he will perform that way in front of a Villa midfield, how many top players can you think of that go to other clubs with sparkling reputations, even World Class to be proved near useless, ever heard of Torres. I am saying that Darren Bent's job just got a lot harder and for all the stat heads out there, you'll be getting a completely different appraisal of the player, assuming he hasn't got p*ssed of with it and stuck himself on the transfer list, which he's well capable of doing.
As for my point about Gabby, he's only ever kicked a ball for Villa and in front of a Villa team (other than U21+ a full cap) how can you compare player for player in terms of there stat's, that is of course unless you are prepared to see Darren Bent stuck out wide left for the next season and then see how his goal tally compares, yes Darren Bent is a more traditional goal poacher front man and thus a more natural goal scorer, doesn't mean for one second other teams won't adapt and deal with him, but to say one player is simply not in the other players league when it comes to goal scoring, when the one player doesn't even play there any more is a nonsense, and if that's the case then I dare say if I'm correct you be back on here at season end if Bent has only notched up 15/16 goals for the season you'll be saying he's not a good striker after all and we need to get someone better.
And for the 1 or 2 paranoid posters I'm not having a pop at Darren Bent, wonderful striker, but how many times do you see deluded footy fans dream up this crazy idea's of what a player is capable of only to see it shot down in flames the next season.
Was actually reading on a Chelsea thread about Torres, when they paid 50ML for him he was not only better than Messi he was world No1, now they are saying how friggin useless he is and he is a complete waste of money and should have been sold in the summer
You're opinion is irrelevant to me at this point. He scored for us at will last campaign, and was one of the sole reasons we stayed up. I understand you're not slagging him off but what evidence do you have that he's not good enough?! He's a proven striker in the prem, whether you take into account his goal tally in the past 5 years or his promising future with a club he enjoys playing at. You're speaking absolute rubbish mate.
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@TVilla. Your missing my point Toronto Villa, Just because Darren Bent as performed for other clubs and in front of other teams doesn't for one second mean he will perform that way in front of a Villa midfield, how many top players can you think of that go to other clubs with sparkling reputations, even World Class to be proved near useless, ever heard of Torres. I am saying that Darren Bent's job just got a lot harder and for all the stat heads out there, you'll be getting a completely different appraisal of the player, assuming he hasn't got p*ssed of with it and stuck himself on the transfer list, which he's well capable of doing.
As for my point about Gabby, he's only ever kicked a ball for Villa and in front of a Villa team (other than U21+ a full cap) how can you compare player for player in terms of there stat's, that is of course unless you are prepared to see Darren Bent stuck out wide left for the next season and then see how his goal tally compares, yes Darren Bent is a more traditional goal poacher front man and thus a more natural goal scorer, doesn't mean for one second other teams won't adapt and deal with him, but to say one player is simply not in the other players league when it comes to goal scoring, when the one player doesn't even play there any more is a nonsense, and if that's the case then I dare say if I'm correct you be back on here at season end if Bent has only notched up 15/16 goals for the season you'll be saying he's not a good striker after all and we need to get someone better.
And for the 1 or 2 paranoid posters I'm not having a pop at Darren Bent, wonderful striker, but how many times do you see deluded footy fans dream up this crazy idea's of what a player is capable of only to see it shot down in flames the next season.
Was actually reading on a Chelsea thread about Torres, when they paid 50ML for him he was not only better than Messi he was world No1, now they are saying how friggin useless he is and he is a complete waste of money and should have been sold in the summer
You're opinion is irrelevant to me at this point. He scored for us at will last campaign, and was one of the sole reasons we stayed up. I understand you're not slagging him off but what evidence do you have that he's not good enough?! He's a proven striker in the prem, whether you take into account his goal tally in the past 5 years or his promising future with a club he enjoys playing at. You're speaking absolute rubbish mate.
Who's not good enough,
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As a keeper who has had chronic groin injuries, they didn't stop my lateral movement or affect my ability to dive at all; they didn't even affect my ability to Volley the ball out of my hands. Goal-kicks were a major problem though, I had no strength on the follow through when I had to generate my own pace.
Given should be fine to play. I wouldn't be surprised if we still see Collins take the occasional goal-kick.
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@VillaNation
Yes but Bent has performed with a midfield at Sunderland which is no better than ours. He has a proven track record. Chelsea are playing a different system from Liverpool which Torres is adjusting to. Even when Gabby is being played as he should be up front he won't score as many goals as Bent. He's not got that natural finish in the same way bent does. And that's not ment as a dig at Gabby. But he doesn't have the same ability from a goal scoring point of view. But what gabby lacks in ability he more than makes up for it in heart and determination. He loves the villa and will put in a performance for you where ever he is on the pitch. Something that Bent probably wouldn't do if he was stuck out on the wing.
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midnite: Good points well put.
I am not saying Bent is not a natural goalscorer and I'm not saying that Gabby is every bit as good as Bent in that particular role, I'm not going to predict for certain that Bent won't go and beat his season record for his goals tally, what I'm saying is if Bent wasn't playing tomorrow IMHO Gabby would do every bit as good a job in the position that Bent finds himself in for Villa as the lone striker up front, he's proved that for many seasons, actually probably better in that role.
In spite of Bent playing in front of a Sunderland midfield, which according to you is no better than a Villa midfield (or was) he proved it there, so therefore he should do the same here. don't get me wrong when i say this but have you ever played football at a good level, because one thing I do know is, just because something works in one game plan doesn't mean it will work in another.
Personally I think Darren Bent playing in front of the likes of Ashley Young and Stuart Downing would certainly have proved his potency, my point is now his job has got a lot harder, my point is I wouldn't heap loads of pressure on the player as Villa fans do, saying "Oh Bent will definitely get his 20 this season" simply because his track record proves he can do that, only to find he does no better than Carew did or Agbolanhor by the ned of the season, because if he does end up with a goals tally of maybe 14 or 15 goals for the season and Villa fans start moaning I will be the first one to defend him, as I did with the stupid childish comments that Gabby endured when he had no football brain or his first touch was crap or he was over weight, when actually the simple facts are in Gabby's case, you don't lead a Premiership side for 4 seasons upfront mainly on your own ( Carew and Mon never got on) that team achieving 6Th consistently, qualifying for Europe successive Cup finals and Semi Finals if your average at what you do, yes we had Young and Downing but Gabby was just as important part of that picture.
My point about Torres which as been clearly pointed out by the Chelsea manager today is, and by the way proving my point about consistency, there you have a player that in terms of ability and if you believe the hype would eclipse anything Darren Bent has in his locker, fantastic goal scoring machine, what was it in 07/08, probably the best goal scorer in the world, hence the 50ML price tag, the man has now score 1 goal in 21 appearances, believe me that's not just settling into a team, and again I'm not saying he won't all of a sudden come good.
Nothing would please me more than to see Darren Bent scoring 25 goals for Villa this season because that would basically mean we are challenging for a top half of the table spot, think about it, but it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to see him getting nowhere near that at which point you will have to listen to me rabbiting on about it isn't that simple.
Good footy debate though.
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If Bent is injured and we play Gabby central, he'll give us everything Bent does in terms of general team play, and possibly even more, but he just won't be as clynical infront of goal. Like that ot not, he's still our best option is Bent is out.
As to his goal tally this season and the effect our departures will have on it, only time will tell. Looking at N'Zogbia's stats he'd more a scorer than creator, so we may see a greater overall output from him than Downing, but with more goals and less assists on balance. But Ash was our main man in terms of creativity, so it's his loss we'll feel most. In order to give bent the best chance of getting to that magical 20 number we'll need one or more of Gabby, Bannan or Albrighton to really make their mark and produce.
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Villanation, I completely agree with you dude. I think I miss interpreted what you were getting at, at first.
I'd like to think I've played football at a good level but the reality of it is, have I bollocks ;-)
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midnite & J M'Zog.
Absolutely and time will tell, but at least we got a decent full on footy debate going without any personal swipes which lets face it, its what a Forum like this is all about surely, more importantly we are singing from the same hymn sheet for tomorrows game.
Lets hope its a cracker.
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If Bent is injured and we play Gabby central, he'll give us everything Bent does in terms of general team play, and possibly even more, but he just won't be as clynical infront of goal. Like that ot not, he's still our best option is Bent is out.
As to his goal tally this season and the effect our departures will have on it, only time will tell. Looking at N'Zogbia's stats he'd more a scorer than creator, so we may see a greater overall output from him than Downing, but with more goals and less assists on balance. But Ash was our main man in terms of creativity, so it's his loss we'll feel most. In order to give bent the best chance of getting to that magical 20 number we'll need one or more of Gabby, Bannan or Albrighton to really make their mark and produce.
Before last season Gabby was responsible for around 7-8 assists per season as well as his goals, so if he is back on form I expect that he will still put some balls on for Bent.
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midnite & J M'Zog.
Absolutely and time will tell, but at least we got a decent full on footy debate going without any personal swipes which lets face it, its what a Forum like this is all about surely, more importantly we are singing from the same hymn sheet for tomorrows game.
Lets hope its a cracker.
Yeah this is all far too mature!!