Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Handsworth Wood Villa on September 04, 2011, 02:42:08 PM
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Inspired by this thread... (http://westbrom.com/forum/index.php?topic=1128.0)
Name 5 bigger English clubs than Aston Villa FC...
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Within England Man Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea and Man City if we are talking now.
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Manchester United
Manchester City
Chelsea
Arsenal
Liverpool
Tottenham
Stoke
That's 6.
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Stoke?!
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Stoke - the new Leeds.
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Stoke - the new Leeds.
I am a clot on two fronts. Stoke was in jest and I actually quoted 7 not 6.
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I could name a hundred clubs bigger than Albion, let alone ten!
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In terms of trophies we are the sixth biggest club:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_records_in_England#Most_successful_clubs_overall_.281871.E2.80.93present.29
Though I'd put us above Tottenham, as we've won the European Cup.
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It depends on what constitutes "Bigger than Villa"?
Is it facilities, incoming revenue, spending power, fan base, gates or history and tradition?
Just because Man City are the richest club doesn't make then bigger than Villa. Sunderland and Stoke have out spent us, but there's no way they're bigger clubs than Villa.
I would go with Man U, Liverpool and Arsenal (just)
Possibly Chelsea and Man City. This is only due to spending power. I don't think as clubs they are bigger.
I think you have Spurs, Everton, Newcastle on a par with Villa
Don't forget Wolves and Leeds either, a sleeping giants
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What defines a big club anyway ? All things considered: -
Man U
Liverpool
Arsenal
Chelsea
Spurs
We're the same group as Everton, Spurs, Man City and Leeds imo.
Stoke are in a good run at the minute but not as good as Wigan who have been in the prem longer and also have a major cup final in recent years.
Albion are a big club and I would put them in the top 20 in England without question. They are certainly the 2nd biggest club in the West Midlands.
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It really depends on what you weight as the most important factors in determining a big club. If you look at history and tradition we would rank ahead of Man City or Chelsea. If you are going to value current capacity to win and win trophies then we are far behind those two.
All things considered (history, trophies, fanbase, current capacities etc) I'd go with the two Manchester clubs, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea and maybe Spurs. Everton would rank level with us.
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Nicked off that Baggie site:
Group 1 Manchester United
Group 2 Liverpool, Arsenal
Group 3 Man City, Chelsea
Group 4 Spurs, Villa, Everton, Newcastle
Group 5 Sunderland, Leeds
In the Midlands: Us, Wolves, Albion, Forest, Derby, Leicester, the Rags, Coventry, Notts County and Walsall.
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In terms of trophies we are the sixth biggest club:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_records_in_England#Most_successful_clubs_overall_.281871.E2.80.93present.29
Though I'd put us above Tottenham, as we've won the European Cup.
I don't count the Community Shield as a major trophy.
Was the Community Shield even around when we won most of our league titles?
So going on just major honours, we are the 4th most succesful club in England
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_football_clubs_in_England_by_major_honours_won
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Nicked off that Baggie site:
Group 1 Manchester United
Group 2 Liverpool, Arsenal
Group 3 Man City, Chelsea
Group 4 Spurs, Villa, Everton, Newcastle
Group 5 Sunderland, Leeds
In the Midlands: Us, Wolves, Albion, Forest, Derby, Leicester, the Rags, Coventry, Notts County and Walsall.
It's probably about right that.
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Manchester United, Liverpool, Arsenal, Leeds and Newcastle?
In terms of support etc?
We are probably in the next lot along with Everton, Man City, Sunderland, Spurs and Chelsea
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In the Midlands: Us, Wolves, Albion, Forest, Derby, Leicester, the Rags, Coventry, Notts County and Walsall.
What about Stoke City?
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In the Midlands: Us, Wolves, Albion, Forest, Derby, Leicester, the Rags, Coventry, Notts County and Walsall.
What about Stoke City?
Who?
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In terms of trophies we are the sixth biggest club:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_records_in_England#Most_successful_clubs_overall_.281871.E2.80.93present.29
Though I'd put us above Tottenham, as we've won the European Cup.
According to that list 9 of Evertons and 7 of Spurs are the community shield,are they really calling a preseason friendly as credible a trophy that scores the same as winning the league?
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In terms of trophies we are the sixth biggest club:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_records_in_England#Most_successful_clubs_overall_.281871.E2.80.93present.29
Though I'd put us above Tottenham, as we've won the European Cup.
Community Shields?!
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Man Utd, Liverpool and Arsenal are considerably bigger.
Chelsea and Citeh are now too for obvious reasons.
I'd say there's very little between us, Spurs, Everton and Newcastle and you could argue a case on any of those being the biggest of the rest. Although the validity of some of those arguments would be questionable.
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In the Midlands: Us, Wolves, Albion, Forest, Derby, Leicester, the Rags, Coventry, Notts County and Walsall.
What about Stoke City?
Who?
Stoke City FC.
A fellow Midlands club.
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Yeah, LOL @ counting Charity Shields.
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In terms of trophies we are the sixth biggest club:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_records_in_England#Most_successful_clubs_overall_.281871.E2.80.93present.29
Though I'd put us above Tottenham, as we've won the European Cup.
Community Shields?!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_football_clubs_in_England_by_major_honours_won
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In terms of trophies we are the sixth biggest club:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_records_in_England#Most_successful_clubs_overall_.281871.E2.80.93present.29
Though I'd put us above Tottenham, as we've won the European Cup.
Community Shields?!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_football_clubs_in_England_by_major_honours_won
That's a bit more like it.
To be honest, I think it's all a bit of a moot point as to which club is biggest as it's all down to financial backing at the end of the day. Man Utd and Liverpool owe their post war success to financial backing, for example. If we had Man City's Sheik behind us we would have the history AND the money...making us the biggest bar none!
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In terms of trophies we are the sixth biggest club:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_records_in_England#Most_successful_clubs_overall_.281871.E2.80.93present.29
Though I'd put us above Tottenham, as we've won the European Cup.
I would never include the Charity Shield (traditional curtainraiser to the English Fotball season © Danny Baker) as a proper trophy. It's basically a glorified pre-season friendly with an often arbritary qualification criteria - 4th place in Division One vs The Third Division Champions anyone? - and therefore shouldn't count.
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In the Midlands: Us, Wolves, Albion, Forest, Derby, Leicester, the Rags, Coventry, Notts County and Walsall.
What about Stoke City?
Who?
Stoke City FC.
A fellow Midlands club.
If you must..
In the Midlands: Us, Wolves, Albion, Forest, Derby, Leicester, the Rags, Stoke City, Coventry, Notts County Port Vale and Walsall.
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I don't know about football clubs,
but my Dad is bigger than anyone else's on here, and could easy take them
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In terms of trophies we are the sixth biggest club:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_records_in_England#Most_successful_clubs_overall_.281871.E2.80.93present.29
Though I'd put us above Tottenham, as we've won the European Cup.
Community Shields?!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_football_clubs_in_England_by_major_honours_won
Only thing wrong with that list is they include the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup which was a friendly competition, not recognised by UEFA. It would be like us including the Peace Cup.
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*stops, thinks hard*
.............
*gives up*
No, sorry, I can't think of one.
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*stops, thinks hard*
.............
*gives up*
No, sorry, I can't think of one.
Well said, Sir!
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In the Midlands: Us, Wolves, Albion, Forest, Derby, Leicester, the Rags, Coventry, Notts County and Walsall.
What about Stoke City?
Who?
Stoke City FC.
A fellow Midlands club.
If you must..
In the Midlands: Us, Wolves, Albion, Forest, Derby, Leicester, the Rags, Stoke City, Coventry, Notts County Port Vale and Walsall.
;D
Tbf, I think all the other major Midlands clubs seem to be similarly sized - medium-sized clubs.
In the Midlands:
Big clubs - Villa
Medium-sized clubs - Wolves, Forest, Albion, Blues, Derby, Leicester, Stoke, Coventry
Small clubs - Notts County, Walsall, Port Vale, Shrewsbury, Northampton, Hereford, Chesterfield, Burton Albion,
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And sh!t clubs: Cheltenham Town
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I'd say we're behind Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea, Man City, Arsenal (in that order) and on a par with Spurs, [Villa], Everton (in that order). Then comes Newcastle, Sunderland, Leeds.
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*stops, thinks hard*
.............
*gives up*
No, sorry, I can't think of one.
This.
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Historically were 4th so, Liverpool, Man u and Arsenal in that order. Everton 5th.
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Absolutely. Just count the trophies. We're fourth biggest.
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liverpool, man utd and arsenal without doubt are bigger, id put villa pretty level in the next bracket with spurs and everton, follwed by man city newcastle sunderland and chelsea completing the top 10 biggest clubs in english history.
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;D
Tbf, I think all the other major Midlands clubs seem to be similarly sized - medium-sized clubs.
In the Midlands:
Big clubs - Villa
Medium-sized clubs - Wolves, Forest, Albion, Blues, Derby, Leicester, Stoke, Coventry
Small clubs - Notts County, Walsall, Port Vale, Shrewsbury, Northampton, Hereford, Chesterfield, Burton Albion,
Hmm, not sure you've quite got that right - to lump in Wolves (3 league titles, 4 FA Cups), Baggies (one league title, 5 FA Cups) and Forest (one league title, 2 FA Cups, 2 European Cups) with the rest in that category (2 league titles and 2 FA Cups between them!) is a bit silly. On a historical basis, those three are all big clubs.
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Some fantastic logic on that Baggies thread.
My favourite part is:
We are a much bigger club than we look on paper. If someone one won the euromillions and built us a 40000 seater stadium and charged a tenner a game we'd fill it most weeks.
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In terms of trophies we are the sixth biggest club:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_records_in_England#Most_successful_clubs_overall_.281871.E2.80.93present.29
Though I'd put us above Tottenham, as we've won the European Cup.
Community Shields?!
If they hadn't of ignored the Peace Cup victory we would have been joint 4th now. Typical media against Villa.
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A daft thread. Next one would be 'how longs a piece of string'?
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Much as i'd like to claim no one is, the fact we've won so little for so long makes that an impossibility. So it's:
Man U
Liverpool
Arsenal
Then a coin flip between us and Everton. We probably edge it due to 82 and more FA Cups, but their titles and record for not getting relegated makes it close.
Maybe in another 100 years Chelsea and Man C can consider themselves our equals if they keep buying success, but until then, they and every other club not in the above list can suck our balls.
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Everton have been relegated.
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Everton have been relegated.
Not for a long time, or as often as we have.
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Without Aston Villa as the vehicle for William McGregor's proposal, football would probably have died out as a spectator sport before the First World War. Accordingly, there is no club bigger than us in whatever way you wish to measure it.
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Oh, I see what you mean sorry. They are the only team to have had more top-division seasons than us.
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Without Aston Villa as the vehicle for William McGregor's proposal, football would probably have died out as a spectator sport before the First World War. Accordingly, there is no club bigger than us in whatever way you wish to measure it.
Likes and nicked.
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Oh, I see what you mean sorry. They are the only team to have had more top-division seasons than us.
No worries, reading it back it could come across as they have never been relegated, which isn't what I meant.
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Man Utd are light years ahead.
Man City are a billion £'s ahead.
Chelsea are millions £'s ahead.
Everyone else is about the same give or take £50m here or there.
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I can't think of 1 never mind 5!
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If we go with attendance, a very good indicator, than only 4.
Man u
Arsenal
Newcastle
Liverpool.
However
We must go with history and honours than only two
Man u
Liverpool.
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If we go with attendance, a very good indicator, than only 4.
Man u
Arsenal
Newcastle
Liverpool.
However
We must go with history and honours than only two
Man u
Liverpool.
Neither of the last two can say much before Queen Liz came to the throne.
We not the biggest or the best, to catergorise us as such is an afront.
We are football.
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The 4 biggest clubs in England are Man Utd Liverpool Nottingham Forest and Aston Villa. There is only one club in Scotland.
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The 4 biggest clubs in England are Man Utd Liverpool Nottingham Forest and Aston Villa. There is only one club in Scotland.
I'd go with this....
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Man u were not always a big club with massive crowds, it only happened because they were very successful over a very long period gaining a lot of support around the world, everyone loves to be associated with a winner. Villa could be up there with the top clubs, we have the catchment and are the number one club in the midlands by some distance, all we need to get 60000 gates is a bigger ground and an owner with more money than sense.
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And sh!t clubs: Cheltenham Town
Oi! leave Cheltenham Town alone. They might be shit but......erm.....ah fuck it.
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Man u were not always a big club with massive crowds, it only happened because they were very successful over a very long period gaining a lot of support around the world, everyone loves to be associated with a winner. Villa could be up there with the top clubs, we have the catchment and are the number one club in the midlands by some distance, all we need to get 60000 gates is a bigger ground and an owner with more money than sense.
I'd say we have an owner with more money than sense. The problem is that it doesn't translate into spending any of it.
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Man Utd
Liverpool
Chelsea
Arsenal
Man City
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Man United
Liverpool
Arsenal
Aston Villa
Everton
They're the biggest five clubs in the country.
We were a big club 110 years ago and we're still a big club today. That takes some doing.
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7 - Ever-present sides in the Premier League
Arsenal, Villa, Chelsea, Everton, Liverpool, Manchester United, Tottenham
7 - League Winners since we did it in '80-'81.
Arsenal, Blackburn, Chelsea, Everton, Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester United
2 - British Winners of European Cup since we won it in '81-'82
Liverpool, Manchester United
FA Cup Winners in last 30 years.
Arsenal, Chelsea, Coventry, Everton, Liverpool, Manchester City, Manchester United, Portsmouth, Tottenham, Wimbledon
So,
Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool and Manchester United all feature regularly and most recently.
Manchester City are the most recent trophy winner of all and look likely to go on and win again, unlike, Blackburn, Coventry, Leeds, Portsmouth and Wimbledon.
Everton and Tottenham, like us both haven't won for a few years. I'd suggest the only reason us and Everton are still in there is because of wins 30 years ago, Tottenham 20 and the fact they flirted with the Champions League (for finishing 4th in the league).
I'd rank them like this.
Manchester United
Chelsea
Arsenal
Liverpool
Manchester City
Tottenham
Aston Villa
Everton
Newcastle haven't won a thing.
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The terrible trio, Liverpool, Arsenal & Man U are bigger than us I'm sad to say. Everton would have a resonable shout but not for me (then again I am biased). Tottenham not far off but still trailing in our wake. Chelsea, no f**king chance. If they're still up there in 2100 then possibly.
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I've never really thought of any clubs being bigger than the villa. When you look at the whole picture it's hard to top us. For real football fans historical significance should always weigh more than money.
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Bigger in terms of fanbase, history and trophies?
Only Man U, Arsenal and Liverpool are definitely bigger than us.
Man C and Chelsea are richer than us, but not bigger, and if I'm being generous, I'd say were of a similar size. Everton and Spurs are probably about the same size.
Newcastle have a huge fanbase, because they've got nothing else. But they haven't won anything since God were a lad.
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Ok Top 10 "Biggest" English clubs all things considered:
1. Man U
2. Liverpool
3. Arse
4. Villa
5. Everton
6. Spurs - Haven't won enough titles
7. Chelsea - Let's see how they do when Abramovich gets bored.
8. Man C - 1 FA Cup win in the last 40 odd years doesn't make you massive.
9. Leeds - would be higher 10 years ago
10. Newcastle - size of fanbase only
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I've never really thought of any clubs being bigger than the villa. When you look at the whole picture it's hard to top us. For real football fans historical significance should always weigh more than money.
But that money WILL bring success, thus is the modern game.
To me, the word 'big' means physical size and that was the traditional meaning - how bigs your stadium and how many do you get through the turnstiles each week. Those teams that tended to have this won more, partly revenue driven and partly profile for attracting the better players.
That was then.
Now, the crowd/stadium/following is a distant 2nd to TV money and the bank rolling by a rich owner. Previosuly a 'smaller' club could build itself up gradually and have a decent tilt at things, but now that can only be done with major investment as the gradually increasing crowds as you build a better side have very little bearing on the financial muscle of those you're trying to catch.
These days, for 'big' read 'rich'.
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Ok Top 10 "Biggest" English clubs all things considered:
1. Man U
2. Liverpool
3. Arse
4. Villa
5. Everton
6. Spurs - Haven't won enough titles
7. Chelsea - Let's see how they do when Abramovich gets bored.
8. Man C - 1 FA Cup win in the last 40 odd years doesn't make you massive.
9. Leeds - would be higher 10 years ago
10. Newcastle - size of fanbase only
If it's ambition then teams like Stoke are certainly showing more - they are strengthening season by season whereas we're getting weaker. Stoke will finish above us this season.
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If you did this 20 years ago then only Man Utd and Liverpool wpould have been bigger than us. Any chanages since then are down to available money to spend at any givne time. If you went back 50 years ago then it would be arguable as to any club being bigger than us at that time. The further you go back the arguement gets even harder to justify taggina ny club as bigger than us.
So the only change is who has money at the time.
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To be honest, I couldn't give a toss about who's bigger, all I know is we're in decline with the current clowns in charge.
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To be honest, I couldn't give a toss about who's bigger, all I know is we're in decline with the current clowns in charge.
If you don't give a toss then why post on the thread?
Don't bother answering, it's a rhetorical question. It's clear to everyone why you did it.
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Ok Top 10 "Biggest" English clubs all things considered:
1. Man U
2. Liverpool
3. Arse
4. Villa
5. Everton
6. Spurs - Haven't won enough titles
7. Chelsea - Let's see how they do when Abramovich gets bored.
8. Man C - 1 FA Cup win in the last 40 odd years doesn't make you massive.
9. Leeds - would be higher 10 years ago
10. Newcastle - size of fanbase only
If it's ambition then teams like Stoke are certainly showing more - they are strengthening season by season whereas we're getting weaker. Stoke will finish above us this season.
I'm fed up of hearing about how ambitious Stoke have been, all they've done is sign players to suit there horrible style.
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Ok Top 10 "Biggest" English clubs all things considered:
1. Man U
2. Liverpool
3. Arse
4. Villa
5. Everton
6. Spurs - Haven't won enough titles
7. Chelsea - Let's see how they do when Abramovich gets bored.
8. Man C - 1 FA Cup win in the last 40 odd years doesn't make you massive.
9. Leeds - would be higher 10 years ago
10. Newcastle - size of fanbase only
If it's ambition then teams like Stoke are certainly showing more - they are strengthening season by season whereas we're getting weaker. Stoke will finish above us this season.
I'm fed up of hearing about how ambitious Stoke have been, all they've done is sign players to suit there horrible style.
It amazes me how we sign two Spurs reserves and it is a sign of how far we have fallen, they sign two and it is ambition. They have spent money but only maybe Palacios would get into our side.
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Form and "ambition" are temporary though.
Blackburn have won a Premier League title, but they're by no stretch of the imagination a bigger club than Liverpool who have never won it.
Man City have always been a fairly big club, the difference is now they're rich. Ditto Chelsea. Their owners have made them big in a relatively short space of time. Take away their owners, and they'd be where we are. In fact, in the late 70s up to the early 90s, they were no-marks.
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Ok Top 10 "Biggest" English clubs all things considered:
1. Man U
2. Liverpool
3. Arse
4. Villa
5. Everton
6. Spurs - Haven't won enough titles
7. Chelsea - Let's see how they do when Abramovich gets bored.
8. Man C - 1 FA Cup win in the last 40 odd years doesn't make you massive.
9. Leeds - would be higher 10 years ago
10. Newcastle - size of fanbase only
If it's ambition then teams like Stoke are certainly showing more - they are strengthening season by season whereas we're getting weaker. Stoke will finish above us this season.
Fulham finished above us last year. Reading, Bolton and even Small Heath have finished above us in the last ten years... doesn't make them bigger than us.
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Man u were not always a big club with massive crowds, it only happened because they were very successful over a very long period gaining a lot of support around the world, everyone loves to be associated with a winner. Villa could be up there with the top clubs, we have the catchment and are the number one club in the midlands by some distance, all we need to get 60000 gates is a bigger ground and an owner with more money than sense.
Much as I ever hate to give them credit but they've been getting big crowds decades. I remember reading something a few years ago and it said only once (i'm 99% sure it was only once and not twice or none) since WWII had they averaged under 35K.
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They got their biggest ever crowd (at the time) the first game after the Munich Air Crash and have been the best supported club in the country pretty much ever since. They attracted a lot of neutrals after that disaster and have always had a lot of non-local support since then too.
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Thing is are we talking big or bigness in terms of stadium and earnings, wealthy owners, or achievements, if we are talking success how can anybody possibly leave out Nottingham Forest, you can no more leave out Nottingham Forest than you can Aston Villa, the obvious is where does the glory sit and on that you can make a credible case for including Arsenal.
For me a good measure of this thread is what any club aim to achieve and what they would consider as the very pinnacle of success and that is to conquer Europe, ask Wenger if he would prefer to win the Premiership or Europe, pretty sure what he would say, on that basis it has to be Man Utd, Liverpool, Aston Villa and Nottingham Forest, all conquerors of Europe and major domestic trophies to boot.
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Nottingham forest have 2 European cups...
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Nottingham forest have 2 European cups...
Exactly.......
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I base club size on what they've done since football started, rather than a few years of bought success (I think we know who we're talking about!) or even success that was the exception to that clubs general history. That's why I never include a club like Forest in the top echelon of clubs.
So even though we have won very little in modern times, we are still more often than not, at the high end of the league and in with a decent shout to win a cup most years.
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Not many clubs have won this lot...
(http://makeagif.com/media/9-05-2011/qbL702.gif) (http://www.makeagif.com/qbL702)
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Ok Top 10 "Biggest" English clubs all things considered:
1. Man U
2. Liverpool
3. Arse
4. Villa
5. Everton
6. Spurs - Haven't won enough titles
7. Chelsea - Let's see how they do when Abramovich gets bored.
8. Man C - 1 FA Cup win in the last 40 odd years doesn't make you massive.
9. Leeds - would be higher 10 years ago
10. Newcastle - size of fanbase only
If it's ambition then teams like Stoke are certainly showing more - they are strengthening season by season whereas we're getting weaker. Stoke will finish above us this season.
He raises a real issue guys.
How the fuck do we stop the mighty Stoke, truely one of the biggest clubs in the land?
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Confuscate their towel and move the advertising hoardings.
Oh sorry, was it rhetorical?
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Confuscate their towel and move the advertising hoardings.
Oh sorry, was it rhetorical?
I don't know! All I know is that I've shit my pants at the thought of Stoke and their ambition.
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If you listen very carefully you can hear Pep Guardiola trembling at the prospect of Stoke coming to take over as the pre-eminent force in World football.
Hoof!
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I can imagine the plastic Chelsea/Manc fans learning the words to Delilah even as we speak, just in case Stoke win the league.
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I can imagine the plastic Chelsea/Manc fans learning the words to Delilah even as we speak, just in case Stoke win the league.
Why have you structured the last part of that sentence to suggest that it is not a foregone conclusion that Stoke, and their ambition, will win the league?
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I can imagine the plastic Chelsea/Manc fans learning the words to Delilah even as we speak, just in case Stoke win the league.
Why have you structured the last part of that sentence to suggest that it is not a foregone conclusion that Stoke, and their ambition, will win the league?
Because i'm trying to remain in denial at how far behind Stoke we are.
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I don't reckon they're ready just yet. Need a bit more height in the side first.
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As painful as it is to say it, you have got to measure the size of a club in terms of visibility and shirts flogged worldwide. Outside of the UK we are virtually unknown and despite our list of honours, we come way down the list of the clubs below for the reasons below:-
1. Manure – The ultimate moneymaking machine
2. Liverpool – The achievements of the great teams of the 80’s coupled with the romanticed view of the Kop make them the team to support for the average Malaysian who believes they like football for the all the right reasons.
3. Chelsea – Money does buy you fans and they’ve created a big enough profile over the years in the Chumps League to justify it
4. Arsenal and Spurs – Both London team, both have had/have glamorous players playing for them and both are seen as playing wonderful football to the foreign press.
5. Man City – They are very quickly doing what Chelsea did and have already developed a very healthy following.
The rest – We fall into this category. Most of the Dutch or Germans I speak to (and they are pretty knowledgeable) know us and have a very healthy respect for the club as a great old traditional British club. On the whole they see us only for the tradition, a sort of living museum where football is played. Not a bad thing, but it’s not really the reputation that we want.
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As painful as it is to say it, you have got to measure the size of a club in terms of visibility and shirts flogged worldwide.
Simply cannot agree with that.
It's a symptom of the present success a club has and not a measure of it.
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Confuscate their towel
We should confuse the towels intellect by using logical fallacies? How will that help?
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As painful as it is to say it, you have got to measure the size of a club in terms of visibility and shirts flogged worldwide.
Simply cannot agree with that.
It's a symptom of the present success a club has and not a measure of it.
I wish it were like that, but the question is 'who's the biggest' and to to the football layman big is measured in £££££'s and profile. Chelsea have never won a European trophy and their haul is still paltry compared to us, but they are still the bigger team as their profile is a lot bigger than ours.
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As painful as it is to say it, you have got to measure the size of a club in terms of visibility and shirts flogged worldwide.
Simply cannot agree with that.
It's a symptom of the present success a club has and not a measure of it.
I wish it were like that, but the question is 'who's the biggest' and to to the football layman big is measured in £££££'s and profile. Chelsea have never won a European trophy and their haul is still paltry compared to us, but they are still the bigger team as their profile is a lot bigger than ours.
I guess that goes back to some very valid points raised at the start of this thread, which is what does being a 'big club' mean? To me it isn't selling shirts, either here or abroad, although I think that is a reflection of the modern barometers, which are money and recent trophy hauls.
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Manure
LPool
Arse
Chelsea
Spurs-
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When you talk about the size of a club's fanbase, you're speaking about the amount of fans they have in this country.
Not the millions of gloryhunting fans a club might have in Asia.
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1. ManU
2. Liverpool
3. Arsenal
4. Chelsea Spurs Villa
5. Everton ManC Leeds Newcastle
Although based on fans it should be Everton. I remember in the 80's when they brought almost a million to VP for a league cup semi 2nd leg. Twas a night match an all.
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When you talk about the size of a club's fanbase, you're speaking about the amount of fans they have in this country.
Why?
Presumably we're not counting the dozens of posters who don't live in the UK on H&V as Villa fans then?
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When you talk about the size of a club's fanbase, you're speaking about the amount of fans they have in this country.
Why?
Presumably we're not counting the dozens of posters who don't live in the UK on H&V as Villa fans then?
What about the many who cock an eye in our direction on a Saturday at 17.00. Do they count?
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for what its worth i see Spurs as a bigger club than Chelsea,
yes Chelsea are richer and more successfull at the moment, but in my eyes the pecking order in London is Arsenal, Spurs, Chelsea, West Ham
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I'd say West Ham were a bigger club than Chelsea.
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When you talk about the size of a club's fanbase, you're speaking about the amount of fans they have in this country.
Why?
Presumably we're not counting the dozens of posters who don't live in the UK on H&V as Villa fans then?
Of course they're fans, but their support doesn't make us a big club and in isolation neither does the Asian contigent buying merchandise from the CL clubs.
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When we can fill a stadium on the other side of the world with our supporters we can say we're bigger than Chelsea. They, Liverpool, Arsenal & Manchester United are light years ahead of us in terms of size and within two years so will be Manchester City.
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When we can fill a stadium on the other side of the world with our supporters we can say we're bigger than Chelsea. They, Liverpool, Arsenal & Manchester United are light years ahead of us in terms of size and within two years so will be Manchester City.
If Spurs have more fans than Chelsea in England, but Chelsea have more fans than Spurs worldwide, I'd say that Spurs would have the bigger fanbase.
Fanbase refers to fans in this country imo.
Man U have the biggest fanbase because they have the most fans in this country.
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When we can fill a stadium on the other side of the world with our supporters we can say we're bigger than Chelsea. They, Liverpool, Arsenal & Manchester United are light years ahead of us in terms of size and within two years so will be Manchester City.
Sadly this is very true-yes we are a big club and have won the european cup but so have forest twice and that doesnt make them bigger than us -history, success, fan base and capital all play a part in judging who or what is a big club and however much people may disagree we have won 1 fa cup in 80 odd years and 1 league title in 100 years -a century ago we were THE club but sadly no more.
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The simplest way of measuring whether a club is big is by asking people who don't support them. If you asked 1,000 random football fans who are the 5 biggest clubs in England but they weren't allowed to pick their own club I doubt we'd get too many mentions.
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It is a sad indictment of the way that football has gone over the last two decades, that many on here determine the size of a club by such things as turnover, size of the "fan" base in Malaysia or how many trophies their oligarch benefactor has bought them in a relatively short timespan.
I stand by by earlier post: no club has a richer history, tradition or greater influence on the development of professional football in this country than us.
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It is a sad indictment of the way that football has gone over the last two decades, that many on here determine the size of a club by such things as turnover, size of the "fan" base in Malaysia or how many trophies their oligarch benefactor has bought them in a relatively short timespan.
I stand by by earlier post: no club has a richer history, tradition or greater influence on the development of professional football in this country than us.
I tend to agree. Our impact on the game through it's early days and fighting through some of its mid-20th century growing pains makes us head and shoulders above some of the as-mentions clubs. Spurs, Toon, Chelsea.. please. ::)
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It is a sad indictment of the way that football has gone over the last two decades, that many on here determine the size of a club by such things as turnover, size of the "fan" base in Malaysia or how many trophies their oligarch benefactor has bought them in a relatively short timespan.
I stand by by earlier post: no club has a richer history, tradition or greater influence on the development of professional football in this country than us.
I tend to agree. Our impact on the game through it's early days and fighting through some of its mid-20th century growing pains makes us head and shoulders above some of the as-mentions clubs. Spurs, Toon, Chelsea.. please. ::)
Nobody's bigger than us.
oops. Modify. FACT!
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were definitely bigger than Italy, they are so small time,
crowd attendance - 8000 for the 'football mad' country in a euro qualifyer
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Villa are bigger than Italy?
Er...ok then.
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Villa are bigger than Italy?
Er...ok then.
just a lightheated comment mate, obviously not to be taken so seriously
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Gotcha
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I've only read most of the thread, not all of it, so apologies if someone's already made this point.
Does it matter? Does it actually mean anything to anyone? It seems to me like a pointless dick-swinging contest made all the more pointless by the fact that it's not even your own dick that you're swinging.
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I love nothing better than swinging my dick around while slagging off Tottenham.
That's why I got banned from the local library.
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Actually not swinging a dick. Female - and all that that implies.
Just - we are, you know. Biggest.
Live with it.
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Relevant article to the debate I think...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/14844717.stm
As McLeish says, we simply cannot compete with about 5 other clubs in terms of finance. He calls them super clubs which I'm a little uneasy about t be honest, but he's right.
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Notts county oldest club are getting to play prestigious freindly against juve this eve
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Ah, yes, Juventus. There's a big club if ever I saw one: pulling down a 70,000 capacity stadium to build a 40,000 one...
Nice gesture, though, to acknowledge Notts County's part in switching their club colours from pink to black and white
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Apparently you can see Villa from space.
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Nottingham Forest
Mitsubishi Urawa Reds
Newcastle United
Niigata Albirex
Shamrock Rovers
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were definitely bigger than Italy, they are so small time,
crowd attendance - 8000 for the 'football mad' country in a euro qualifyer
And people were having at go at us for only getting 77,128 at Wembley for the Wales match...
Highest attendance in Europe that...
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Apparently you can see Villa from space.
That's just Richard Dunne.
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10 biggest clubs in England being debated on talkSPORT tonight from 7pm.
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4th (http://www.talksport.co.uk/radio/kickoff/blog/2011-09-19/stan-collymores-top-english-club-sides-ever)
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Everton have been relegated.
I thought they'd got the record for being in the top flight the longest?
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Merse sticking-up for us for once. He never has 'owt good to say about us these days. And why were the rest of those fucking nimrods so shocked at his opinion?
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Because apart from Geoff they are all morons
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I can only speak for myself but as far as Im concerned Aston Villa are the biggest and the most important football club on the planet. I dont give a damn how many times man united win the premier league, or that arsenal have got the biggest club ground in london, or that man city have got more money to spend than anyone else. Aston Villa are everything, I love the Villa, everyone else can f*ck off.
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I'm delighted that so many boggies begrudgingly put us in their top ten. Fair doos for being honest.
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Jimmy Rimmer proudly tells of how he played for the three biggest clubs in the country. The biggest in the North (Man U), the biggest club in the Midlands and the biggest in the South (Arsenal).
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liverpool, man utd and arsenal without doubt are bigger, id put villa pretty level in the next bracket with spurs and everton, follwed by man city newcastle sunderland and chelsea completing the top 10 biggest clubs in english history.
+1
Ties in with this ranking.
http://www.aboutaball.co.uk/aboutaball-historical-football-rankings/historical-ranking-of-english-football-clubs
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I can not think of five bigger clubs. There have been better teams than our team yes in the recent past but bigger clubs NO.
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Pity we don't start acting like a top 5 club.
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I'm growing tired of all this nonsense about "big clubs". Who really cares? As Blackburn, Chelsea and Manchester City have proven, any club can achieve success if they have owners who are able to throw obscene amounts of money around.
Whilst on the subject of big clubs though, I would say that Celtic and Rangers are also massive clubs and if they got the same financial rewards as Premiership clubs, would certainly be be able to challenge.
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We're certainly in the top 10, anyone who dosen't put us in is a SHA fan or someone who just has an irrational hatred.
Obviously in these money orientated times City and Chelsea are coming to the fore but who knows in 10 years that might have changed.
Certainly traditionally there's a big 3 of Arsenal, Liverpool and Man. United and then a gaggle of clubs who've come and challenged for a bit and then slip back into mediocrity, then challenged again, then slipped back. Us, Spurs, Newcastle, Everton, Leeds etc.
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Only Everton have spent more seasons in the top flight than Aston Villa. Aston Villa are one of only four English clubs to have won the European cup. Aston Villa are one of the elite group of seven ever present Premier League clubs and are still fifth in the all time PL table. Villa Park is the seventh biggest ground in English league football. In the 1990s Aston Villa finished second twice and later went on a run of six consecutive seasons in the top 8. Villa are in the top five most successful English clubs in terms of trophies.
I think it's safe to say we are a big club. Not as big as United, Liverpool, Arsenal and on a similar level to Everton, Tottenham Newcastle and possibly Leeds. I'd say we're in the top eight big clubs.
As for Chelsea and Man City, form is temporary class is permanent.
UTV.
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Bigger;
Man Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal.
Similar;
Everton, Tottenham, Chelsea (only because of recent years).
Slightly beneath us;
Newcastle, Man City.
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There are lots of clubs bigger than us. Man U, Man City, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea, Tottenham, Newcastle, Everton to name but a few. We would probably make the top 10 but that's about it.
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Spurs, Newcastle and City bigger than us? Good grief.
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Errr..... hang on..... wait a sec.......Real Madrid? No, shit kit.
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Spurs, Newcastle and City bigger than us? Good grief.
I agree, and Everton FWIW.
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There are lots of clubs bigger than us. Man U, Man City, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea, Tottenham, Newcastle, Everton to name but a few. We would probably make the top 10 but that's about it.
Spurs? Newcastle? Show me their trophies?
The way I look at it, in terms of support base and general sense of 'size' we're like Spurs, Leeds, Everton and Newcastle. Where we outstrip them is consistency, success and heritage.
Even by confining it to the Premier League era, which hasn't been so great to villa, we trump that lot. Spurs were nowhere until the 2005-06 seasons while Everton and Newcastle like ourselves had a few successful seasons coupled with a few flirts with relegation. Leeds, as in the 1980s have spent a lengthy period in the lower leagues while Newcastle have suffered a promotion and relegation. Since 1992-1993 we've finished higher than Spurs in twelve seasons (and were usually ahead of Everton and quite often ahead of Newcastle).
That's not to even mention the fact that we've come as close as any of those clubs to winning a PL title. Also, ahve any of those clubs won the European cup ;)
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I'd say only Arsenal, Liverpool and Man United are clearly bigger than us.
Whether we're "bigger" or "smaller" than Everton, Chelsea, Tottenham, Newcastle and Man City is up for debate - if you based it on trophies won, history, global and domestic fanbase, stadium and facilities, current playing strength, commercial strength or wealth - the answers will be different each time.
Everton are probably on a par with us all things considered.
Chelsea are an Abramovich whim away from being mid-table nonentities.
Man City are a Sheikh's whim away from being Sunderland
Newcastle haven't won anything since the sixties.
Tottenham have won as much as we have since the advent of the Premier League (2 League Cups), and have won less than us before that.
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Given the criteria for a "big club" above, where we really fall down is with our image, and it's knock-on effects on our branding and commercial attractiveness.
I wonder how many shirts and how much merchandise we sell in comparison to the rest of the league. And then there's the matter of not really having a "football style" - although McLeish tried to change that. The media representation of our fans is of fickle moaners, unlike of course the great loyal fans of Newcastle and Man City who support them through thick and thin.
For a club of our size, we are massively undersold.
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There are lots of clubs bigger than us. Man U, Man City, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea, Tottenham, Newcastle, Everton to name but a few. We would probably make the top 10 but that's about it.
No way are Everton bigger than us.
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Chelsea are an Abramovich whim away from being mid-table nonentities.
Man City are a Sheikh's whim away from being Sunderland
More like Chelsea and Man City are both a whim away from liquidation. I know the fans are probably too concerned with their successes at the moment, but surely somewhere at the back of their minds their is the thought of what might happen if the money disappears overnight.
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We also have a uniqueness about VP which we as fans lose site of. The premier league regulars who visit VP every season do as well. But if you look round the newly promoted sides websites they are invaribly impressed with how different VP is. There isn't a walk up like it when you approach from under Expressway or across the park.
Anfield and the Kop is shockingly small when you see it first time, Goodison is a dump.Tottenham bland, Sunderland,Bolton,Stoke,Wigan and Citeh all the same. Albion,Fulham and Norwich are quaint at best. Arsenal is stunning TBF as is OT. Newcastle, despite the name change, has the best location in the League.
I got lucky enough to see a couple of games in the posh seats last year and the inside of the Trinity Stand is top class, that Sky Box is quality. We have a great club and world class facilities.
We just need to get the bit right that matters on the pitch.
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We also have a uniqueness about VP which we as fans lose site of. The premier league regulars who visit VP every season do as well. But if you look round the newly promoted sides websites they are invaribly impressed with how different VP is. There isn't a walk up like it when you approach from under Expressway or across the park.
Anfield and the Kop is shockingly small when you see it first time, Goodison is a dump.Tottenham bland, Sunderland,Bolton,Stoke,Wigan and Citeh all the same. Albion,Fulham and Norwich are quaint at best. Arsenal is stunning TBF as is OT. Newcastle, despite the name change, has the best location in the League.
I got lucky enough to see a couple of games in the posh seats last year and the inside of the Trinity Stand is top class, that Sky Box is quality. We have a great club and world class facilities.
We just need to get the bit right that matters on the pitch.
Old Trafford stunning!! Its an eyesore and just a bigger version of the identikit stadiums of today. I felt they could have done more with the Emirates as well
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Man U, Liverpool and Arsenal are comfortably bigger, I think we are fractionally larger than anyone else though, I'd probably put Everton 4th, Spurs 5th. I find it difficult after that, Chelsea have won so much over the last 15 years which has hoisted them up, but West Ham were always a bigger club than them previously, Sheff Wed and Leeds are of similar stature but Leeds a bit more successful, Newcastle and Sunderland big but generally unsuccessful, Man City the same until the last 12 months. In the Midlands after us I would probably say Forest just from Wolves, then Baggies.
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I would dispute Chelsea being nobodys until Abramovich came in a little bit.
They started motoring above us from the mid 90s imo.....when the likes of Gulit, Zola, Di Matteo, Desailly, Vialli all came in.
In that period they won the league and cup winners cup in 98, obviously the FA cup in 2000 and 1997 and got to the quarter finals of the champions league in 2000. They were also regularly finishing above us in that period and due to the worldwide known foreign players, getting a good following abroad going.
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Name 5 bigger clubs than us...
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-FKHYLdKeCpA/T5bdWy_MPDI/AAAAAAAABYk/jQcnHsMLm1U/s640/impossibru.jpg)
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I would dispute Chelsea being nobodys until Abramovich came in a little bit.
Also IIRC they had the highest average attendances of any club in England during the 1950s. Certainly the highest during certain seasons in that decade. Put it this way they're no Birmingham City.
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Swansea City apparently.