Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Stu on May 04, 2011, 11:13:38 AM
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I don't have access to the General's thread, so I don't know if this is being discussed there. Couldn't see a topic on this on the main board either: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/may/03/aston-villa-board-randy-lerner
He's absolutely right. While the management staff and the players have underperfomed badly, the people who put the management team in place have to take a serious look at their decision to appoint GH.
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Not much to say really, except that picture makes Randy look like he's about to start singing 'West end girls.'
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A twenty year head start in the premiership era should see us on a completely different footballing level to all of our near neighbours.
It's hasn't, and successive boards have to be to blame.
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A twenty year head start in the premiership era should see us on a completely different footballing level to all of our near neighbours.
It's hasn't, and successive boards have to be to blame.
I agree.
The Blues have won a trophy this year, yet we've been potless for 15 years.
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A twenty year head start in the premiership era should see us on a completely different footballing level to all of our near neighbours.
It's hasn't, and successive boards have to be to blame.
I agree.
The Blues have won a trophy this year, yet we've been potless for 15 years.
That's a bit melodramatic, Fletcher-san.
Blues have won the league cup, but then again, Stoke City are one match from winning the FA Cup. Middlesbrough, Blackburn and Leicester City have also all won the LC since we last did.
Blues fluked their way to the final via a succession of piss easy home draws and a lucky escape to get past us. They're still a piss pot shithouse club of no worthiness whatsoever.
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Exactly.
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I thought the General's thread was a closed forum.
Was this supplied to the press via the mods or was it 'leaked' ?
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I thought the General's thread was a closed forum.
Was this supplied to the press via the mods or was it 'leaked' ?
He posted the same on VillaSquawk
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I agree that the Blues are a going nowhere outfit of human excrement, but it's still rank incomptence on our part that they won a trophy, at our expense.
As Chris Smith said on another thread, O'Neill (and I hate him) would never have let their lot beat us in the League cup.
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This season has been a disaster let's look forward to next season and make sure we don't make the same mistake next season.
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Not much to say really, except that picture makes Randy look like he's about to start singing 'West end girls.'
I love you
You paid for Bent
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Excellent.
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"I know fans want to discuss the path forward, which [is] to include our manager," he wrote. "Now is not the time to discuss our manager. He is suffering and does not need to be discussed on an open website. Right now all we want is for him to regain his health. He has gone through a tough medical issue and deserves our prayers and our hopes for recovery."
That hardly says "We expect him to be manager next season" to me!
The thing about a season like this is that you learn from it. Randy & Co have had a pretty easy ride thus far as things have generally gone well for us, and that is largely due to them themselves, but this is one of the downs that comes with the ups every football club owner will encounter. What I'd like to see them do is, should the expected happen, sit down and review their process for appointing the last manager and ask what they could have done better and see how most other clubs at our level would go about things. Generally, a matter of being selfish and almost bullying in protecting our club and not caring how that may damage others.
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Right now, and this is just my opinion, I dont think anybody close to the club expects Houllier to be back in the hot seat next season. I also think that whilst nothing will be said whilst Houllier is recovering, efforts to find our new manager have already begun and may have done a while ago, with Houllier moving upstairs.
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With respect to GH the only moving upstairs he should be doing is when he goes to bed.
Too many incidents the season of being totally oblivious to the blindly obviously crowned by on the Friday after the FA Cup defeat when he said "I still don't understand what all the fuss was about"
Thanks for Bent but get your bags packed
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I disagree. He's not only ideal for an upstairs role, he's already proved himself in one.
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I disagree. He's not only ideal for an upstairs role, he's already proved himself in one.
Exactly. I think we have a really good asset in GH in finding players and building scout networks etc. We just need a proven manager who is willing to work in this system should we decide this is the way forward.
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Exactly. I think we have a really good asset in GH in finding players and building scout networks etc. We just need a proven manager who is willing to work in this system should we decide this is the way forward.
That, to me, screams 'overseas manager'.
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I disagree. He's not only ideal for an upstairs role, he's already proved himself in one.
Exactly. I think we have a really good asset in GH in finding players and building scout networks etc. We just need a proven manager who is willing to work in this system should we decide this is the way forward.
There lies the problem.
How do you draw the boundaries on this?
Will the coach have to use Houllier's suggested signings?
I'm not sure too many quality Manager's would like having Houllier whispering in their ears, they would want a bigger role than that.
I could only see the likes of McAllister agreeing to be Houllier's bone.
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I disagree. He's not only ideal for an upstairs role, he's already proved himself in one.
Where?
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I disagree. He's not only ideal for an upstairs role, he's already proved himself in one.
Where?
There was the unsubstantiated rumour about him dressing up in his wife's clothes, in the loft.
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Right now, and this is just my opinion, I dont think anybody close to the club expects Houllier to be back in the hot seat next season. I also think that whilst nothing will be said whilst Houllier is recovering, efforts to find our new manager have already begun and may have done a while ago, with Houllier moving upstairs.
...and I don't think GH would want to go back in the hot-seat after the season he's had and the health scare - I don't the Dr's will be advising he gets back into front-line management.
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I agree that the Blues are a going nowhere outfit of human excrement, but it's still rank incomptence on our part that they won a trophy, at our expense.
As Chris Smith said on another thread, O'Neill (and I hate him) would never have let their lot beat us in the League cup.
How short memories are
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I agree that the Blues are a going nowhere outfit of human excrement, but it's still rank incomptence on our part that they won a trophy, at our expense.
As Chris Smith said on another thread, O'Neill (and I hate him) would never have let their lot beat us in the League cup.
How short memories are
You remember a time when O'Neill would've let Blues beat us in the League Cup?
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I agree that the Blues are a going nowhere outfit of human excrement, but it's still rank incomptence on our part that they won a trophy, at our expense.
As Chris Smith said on another thread, O'Neill (and I hate him) would never have let their lot beat us in the League cup.
How short memories are
You remember a time when O'Neill would've let Blues beat us in the League Cup?
As I mentioned on another thread, you're assuming we'd have beaten Blackburn and Burnley. Does the name QPR ring any bells?
As for the board, I remember last summer we were discussing whether or not the board had a contingency plan, should MON walk away or get his wish and go to Anfield. Obviously they didn't and must take the blame for that. The other thing they were responsible for was allowing us to be put is such a ridiculous position whereby a manager walked out 5 days before the season started, taking 5 of his team with him. MON was allowed far too much control over the running of the club.
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Oh good, another Houllier thread.
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Exactly. I think we have a really good asset in GH in finding players and building scout networks etc. We just need a proven manager who is willing to work in this system should we decide this is the way forward.
That, to me, screams 'overseas manager'.
It screams to me "young, up and coming Manager who will be grateful for getting such a big job and would be happy to have the old fella peering over their shoulder". Paul Lambert, Simon Grayson types. I'd hope we would go for a more experienced Premier League Manager.
Interesting spin on the recent General K VT entry from the Dail Mail and Sunday Mail, they say Randy Lerner is taking the blame. Rags, absolute rags.
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I disagree. He's not only ideal for an upstairs role, he's already proved himself in one.
Where?
France. He was instrumental in setting up the Clairefontaine academy, which ultimately helped France win the World Cup and European Championships and is still very much an elite and productive set up. He's also been technical director for the FFF.
Whilst not a Director of football or technical directot role at a Premier League club, he's had good experience of "upstairs roles".
I guess that I'm concerned we have few men at the club who are truly plugged into the wider world of football and dont want to be in a position where one man has all the power again. Especially one who is narrow minded and refuses to look abroad or think too far ahead, to develop the scouting and coaching infrastructure. A man like Houllier is a champion of these causes. We need it. I'd be loathe to lose his value completely just because he isnt well enough to manage anymore.
I also strongly believe he can peform a role at the club without being in any new managers face.
Mr Woodhall has a point though. This is in danger of becoming another Houllier thread. In truth I forget which one is which now.
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In danger?
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Well, it's rare times indeed at Villa when the buck doesn't stop with the manager. Or the previous one. Or the next one....etc.
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I disagree. He's not only ideal for an upstairs role, he's already proved himself in one.
Where?
France. He was instrumental in setting up the Clairefontaine academy, which ultimately helped France win the World Cup and European Championships and is still very much an elite and productive set up. He's also been technical director for the FFF.
Whilst not a Director of football or technical directot role at a Premier League club, he's had good experience of "upstairs roles".
I guess that I'm concerned we have few men at the club who are truly plugged into the wider world of football and dont want to be in a position where one man has all the power again. Especially one who is narrow minded and refuses to look abroad or think too far ahead, to develop the scouting and coaching infrastructure. A man like Houllier is a champion of these causes. We need it. I'd be loathe to lose his value completely just because he isnt well enough to manage anymore.
I also strongly believe he can peform a role at the club without being in any new managers face.
Mr Woodhall has a point though. This is in danger of becoming another Houllier thread. In truth I forget which one is which now.
I assumed you were referring to his recent upstairs role at the FFF, which was an utter disaster, culminating in one of the most embarassisng world cup campaigns seen for a long time - so wouldn't really use that as evidence that he can work in that role.
I honestly think we're (general sense of "we") looking at this in terms of giving GH a job to do as a fob off, without thinking that he's not going to work for peanuts - far from it - and about whether we actually need someone in that role.
Once we have a scouting network, how much work does it need to oversee on a day to day basis, for example?
In fact, when Dr Jo left, didn't we give him some fancily titled role - Technical Director, Europe or some nonsense - which turned out to mean nothing?
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Absolutely, Paulie. I sense a lot of folks on here are just looking at a way of getting rid of a man without the whole looking like absolute c***s for sacking a man who has been unwell.
Getting back to the main topic I do agree that the board have been far from faultless. Heck, if we got rid of everyone who was even slightly to blame for this shitter of a season all we'd have left is a couple of the youth players and Doris the Tea Lady.
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I wasnt really refering to his role at the FFF.
To be honest, setting up academies, improving the scouting and coaching infrastructure and so on would be an involving and evolving role. It would take years to bring it up to the levels we need to be a top club. Much of what we have is already top class and in some cases, the best. It just needs the rest to come up to scratch. As Ive said for a while, its the only way we're going to truly compete at the top level.
Its too much for a manager to do as well as his other duties and we have nobody else I know of with the football nous required, so I say we get a man to oversee this and I believe we already have him.
I'd never suggest it just to be kind or to fob him off. That's just nonsense.
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I'd never suggest it just to be kind or to fob him off. That's just nonsense.
I didn't say you were, but I get the impression a lot of people see it that way - ie move him upstairs, soften the blow, without too much of a thought as to what he'd do, how much he'd cost etc.
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I see.
No, unless he would be doing something useful, that we truly need, I'd rather he wasnt given a role at all.
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The trouble is, if you give Houllier some sort of DoF position, you then need to find a manager willing to work with one. This would limit the choice of managers even more, which I don't think would be a sensible move in the summer.
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A twenty year head start in the premiership era should see us on a completely different footballing level to all of our near neighbours.
It's hasn't, and successive boards have to be to blame.
I agree.
The Blues have won a trophy this year, yet we've been potless for 15 years.
That's a bit melodramatic, Fletcher-san.
Blues have won the league cup, but then again, Stoke City are one match from winning the FA Cup. Middlesbrough, Blackburn and Leicester City have also all won the LC since we last did.
Blues fluked their way to the final via a succession of piss easy home draws and a lucky escape to get past us. They're still a piss pot shithouse club of no worthiness whatsoever.
Dead on. I don't think I've ever agreed so strongly with a post.
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I wouldnt limit it to thinking DOF only. Its just a title. You could call it development director, technical director, or whatever.
The role I described wouldn't interfere with a managers day to day job much and would actually help.
And do we really want a tyrant manager who is unwilling to work with others for the greater good of the club?
Also, managers come and go and their legacy shouldn't permeate every level of the club. There should be continuity and long term planning outside of and beyond whoever happens to be manager at the time. To a degree there already is, but it could be far more comprehensive, far reaching and potent.
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I wouldnt limit it to thinking DOF only. Its just a title. You could call it development director, technical director, or whatever.
The role I described wouldn't interfere with a managers day to day job much and would actually help.
And do we really want a tyrant manager who is unwilling to work with others for the greater good of the club?
Also, managers come and go and their legacy shouldn't permeate every level of the club. There should be continuity and long term planning outside of and beyond whoever happens to be manager at the time. To a degree there already is, but it could be far more comprehensive, far reaching and potent.
I don't think not wanting to work with a failed ex-manager shifted upstairs would make a manager a tyrant.
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Depends what you mean by "upstairs".
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A twenty year head start in the premiership era should see us on a completely different footballing level to all of our near neighbours.
It's hasn't, and successive boards have to be to blame.
I agree.
The Blues have won a trophy this year, yet we've been potless for 15 years.
That's a bit melodramatic, Fletcher-san.
Blues have won the league cup, but then again, Stoke City are one match from winning the FA Cup. Middlesbrough, Blackburn and Leicester City have also all won the LC since we last did.
Blues fluked their way to the final via a succession of piss easy home draws and a lucky escape to get past us. They're still a piss pot shithouse club of no worthiness whatsoever.
However the fact is SHA have won a cup and we have been potless for 15 years.
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Why is everyone banging on about giving houllier a job upstairs. What the fuck has he done to deserve a job upstairs.????? he should be no where near our club next season
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I dont think the idea of putting the existing manager to a DOF rule has ever worked in England. You can not get half pregnant.
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Eh?
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There are a couple of bars upstairs at Villa Park he could work in. A bit like Renee. Just needs a policeman with a really bad accent working with him.
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Once we have a scouting network, how much work does it need to oversee on a day to day basis, for example?
It's a good point but not one that I would hold against Houllier who is 63 (or something like that). If he did the role for seven years then that would take him up to the age of 70. It would still be a pretty demanding role.
I agree with Mazrim we need some sort of footballing know how higher up in the club than the team manager. This will protect us when the next manager/coach leaves and also help us build an over all infrastructure.
The potential conflict between the new manager and Dof should be minimal because the manger appointment will have been made with the Dof incumbent in his role.
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I also see no reason for this focusing on what is basically a cliche. That a DOF or Technical director (DOF is a silly title) would interfere with and be at odds with a manager.
Why would he? How would this manifest itself?
What manager worth his salt wouldn't make best use of all the resources at his command? That's all the role I'm suggesting would focus on doing, providing the club with the best chance of getting the best players it can.
So say, for arguments sake, that Houllier became this Technical director and Moyes was appointed manager because they get on and Houllier recommended him to the board.
Then Houllier goes off and sets up Villa academies and centres of excellence here there and everywhere, organises a top scouting network (that we haven't had for years), feeder clubs, partnerships and so on. Meanwhile Moyes takes over first team duties and concentrates on that, as a manager should.
Then, in a few months, a year, a few years or whatever, Houllier or his staff starts coming to Moyes with recommendations for players they've found and/or developed and he has the chance to acquire them or use them in the first team, how can that be a bad thing? Its not telling a manager how to play and who to pick, its just making his life easier by providing a depth of resources he can call on.
The manager wouldn't report to him. He'd report to the CEO and Chairman as is usual, but he'd work with the Technical director.
You can argue that Houllier isn't the man for the job and that's fair enough although I think he'd excel at it, but I would argue we certainly we need somebody to do that job and we already have Houllier so let's give it a go.
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Exactly. I think we have a really good asset in GH in finding players and building scout networks etc. We just need a proven manager who is willing to work in this system should we decide this is the way forward.
That, to me, screams 'overseas manager'.
It screams to me "young, up and coming Manager who will be grateful for getting such a big job and would be happy to have the old fella peering over their shoulder". Paul Lambert, Simon Grayson types. I'd hope we would go for a more experienced Premier League Manager.
Interesting spin on the recent General K VT entry from the Dail Mail and Sunday Mail, they say Randy Lerner is taking the blame. Rags, absolute rags.
The whole DOF (or whatever title you give it) and manager model has never really worked in this country. For me, the reason why this is is that a British manager WANTS to be in charge of everything, as that's the way their managers were when they were playing. Rightly or wrongly, the general feeling amongst some managers would be that the guy 'upstairs' would interfere. Hence I think it works better with an overseas manager who is used to and comfortable with the set up.
In many ways, Houllier is well suited to this role, but I fear having him doing it would once again limit our options to who we could appoint to the most important job. Ideally, I'd like to think we're sounding out candidates now and asking them if they like the idea. If the man we go for says 'no' then I'm afraid it's bye bye Gezza and we can't let ANYTHING get in the way of appointing the right manager this time.
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Directors of football rarely work. Why we'd want to appoint a manager who's just presided over our worst season in a decade and a half (pending poor results in last 3 games) as one I don't know.
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I'm sure Mourinhio will be happy to work with Ged upstairs, I think he's packed his bags for B6 already.
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Right, I'm off to take a good long piss into a strong breeze.
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I can see the benefit of having a 'football man' involved at board level; we've often bemoaned the lack of that kind of individual - with all due and genuine respect to Randy, the General and Paul Faulkner, they don't have the same kind of background and although they bring a great deal of knowledge to the table and have done lots of good for the club, there's perhaps a gap there for someone like GH.
Less of a role in first team affairs, more of development - replicating, perhaps, the approach Arsenal have taken under Wenger with scouting, establishing the club internationally, etc. I'd imagine Houllier could open a lot of doors for us - very well known within European football, and worldwide.
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By Jove, I think he's got it!
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It's good of the board to take its share of the blame for the late delivery of the kit but what else has it done wrong ? The club is vastly better off the pitch than when it was purchased. The Acorns example alone should give Randy the freedom of the City, how many Villa fans when doing anything to do with charity instinctively now do it for Acorns. I know of many,including people on here.
On the footy side he has bankrolled player purchases way beyond anything that went on before. Under Doug (and he's one of us I know but he does suffer by comparison) the light bulbs would have been taken out in January in preparation for relegation, what did Randy do ? Darren Bent.
No blame lies with us the fans we still turn up in numbers home and away. If it was available in time we would have purchased the kit as well.
A small portion of the blame in my opinion lies with initially MON who should have walked in May and an out of his depth Kevin Mac who killed the season before we got going.
Ged has had his share of gaffes as well but the fingers really should be pointed at the players. The best resourced squad in our history earning the highest wages we've ever paid have produced the worst performances for a generation. Overwight smokers, players refusing to play, refusing to move home, hitting coaches, slagging off the city we come from, ducking tackles that our children would make for the club.
I never thought I'd say this about players who play for our Aston Villa , but I really do hate some of our team right now.
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It's good of the board to take its share of the blame for the late delivery of the kit but what else has it done wrong ? The club is vastly better off the pitch than when it was purchased. The Acorns example alone should give Randy the freedom of the City, how many Villa fans when doing anything to do with charity instinctively now do it for Acorns. I know of many,including people on here.
On the footy side he has bankrolled player purchases way beyond anything that went on before. Under Doug (and he's one of us I know but he does suffer by comparison) the light bulbs would have been taken out in January in preparation for relegation, what did Randy do ? Darren Bent.
No blame lies with us the fans we still turn up in numbers home and away. If it was available in time we would have purchased the kit as well.
A small portion of the blame in my opinion lies with initially MON who should have walked in May and an out of his depth Kevin Mac who killed the season before we got going.
Ged has had his share of gaffes as well but the fingers really should be pointed at the players. The best resourced squad in our history earning the highest wages we've ever paid have produced the worst performances for a generation. Overwight smokers, players refusing to play, refusing to move home, hitting coaches, slagging off the city we come from, ducking tackles that our children would make for the club.
I never thought I'd say this about players who play for our Aston Villa , but I really do hate some of our team right now.
Big clappy thing - exactly my sentiments
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I can see the benefit of having a 'football man' involved at board level; we've often bemoaned the lack of that kind of individual - with all due and genuine respect to Randy, the General and Paul Faulkner, they don't have the same kind of background and although they bring a great deal of knowledge to the table and have done lots of good for the club, there's perhaps a gap there for someone like GH.
Less of a role in first team affairs, more of development - replicating, perhaps, the approach Arsenal have taken under Wenger with scouting, establishing the club internationally, etc. I'd imagine Houllier could open a lot of doors for us - very well known within European football, and worldwide.
The benefit of a football man is dependent on who that football man is really. Houllier has been crap for us so why give him another job?
If we're comparing with Arsenal enlighten me on who their director of football is? As far as I'm aware the plus points you mention are as a result of Wenger, ie the manager. In my opinion what we need is Houllier out of the club completely and a decent manager to come in and do what decent managers do.
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By Jove, I think he's got it!
Just ducked my head into this thread and it looked as if you needed a bit of support with this one ;)
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The benefit of a football man is dependent on who that football man is really. Houllier has been crap for us so why give him another job?
If we're comparing with Arsenal enlighten me on who their director of football is? As far as I'm aware the plus points you mention are as a result of Wenger, ie the manager. In my opinion what we need is Houllier out of the club completely and a decent manager to come in and do what decent managers do.
Absolutely, of course it depends on the calibre of that football man... you wouldn't put a (nothing personal, Steve) Steve Claridge in there. You'd want someone with a strong reputation in the wider world of football in there, someone with universal respect, a good track record, excellent contacts, an ambassador as well. I think Houllier would be good at this. Dare I say it, this is perhaps the type of role we could have used Sir Graham in.
When Houllier arrived at the club, my reservations about him all concerned his ability to step into the PL as a manager again, whether he'd be up to it. All the plus points I thought he'd bring with him would be suited to the role that's been suggested by some on here. He hasn't been 'crap' - he's signed one or two players the previous regime probably/perhaps wouldn't have done, he's implemented a new training approach, he's established an excellent rapport with the younger players. He hasn't been a hit in terms of results. I haven't been totally surprised by that.
I just wonder.. does he have something to offer the club, away from being manager? I think he does. It's not a sympathetic 'find him a job' stance. But perhaps it's the opportunity to introduce something new to the club that's needed; perhaps having Houllier involved at some level could give us a vital advantage over many of our rivals when it comes to discovering and recruiting European players - a real weak spot of ours in recent years (or forever). Maybe Arsenal wouldn't have the free rein over France's best young prospects, then.
As for Arsenal's director of football, then as far as I know, they don't have one. Wenger does the lot - he's had 15 years to build the club up, on and off the field, but we're talking about one of the outstanding coaches/visionaries in European football here (IMO). There's undoubtedly a well-constructed back-room, coaching and academy set-up to complement all of Wenger's work, of course, and I'm sure it extends much further back then Pat Rice, the fella we see sitting on the dug out.
I think Houllier assist us in replicating some of Arsenal's approach. We haven't got a Wenger, and we're not likely to get a Wenger anytime soon. But Houllier has got that standing in the game. Outside of the PL and the UK, we need to do more - here's a man who could start that process. I think, at least.
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Merv rides a horse called sense.
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Good posts by andrew08 & Merv.
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this is perhaps the type of role we could have used Sir Graham in
Merv, my love and respect for Sir Graham is second to no man - but could you please help me to understand why he would be the best man to discover, sign and retain the services of not only European but African, Asian and South American young talent over the next five years. He's adored by me and my mates but that doesn't make him qualified for the job.
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I don't think anyone fails to see what this sort of role could bring to us, but there are two issues some of us find concern over:-
1. Is Houllier the right man for the job?
2. Would whatever new manager we appoint like this or prefer to have control of over all the footballing aspects of the club himself?
Say what you want about 'total control' being handed to one man, but I'd be OK with it if it's the right man!
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I can't: I've been explaining at length why I think Gerard Houllier would be well suited to a similar role. SGT got a passing mention!
And I mentioned Sir Graham as I believe he's been involved in the past in advising the board, maybe - and I'm happy to be corrected by those better informed - on a temporary basis. SGT would have been useful at board level, certainly a few years ago. And maybe universally welcomed to such a role back then. Houllier is better placed for that now.
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Once a stance is taken against someone it is difficult to see any good in them. I was the same in the last few months of Oneills reign, i think it really started when he bought Heskey when we were in such a good position, after that i could see no positives in him at all. Some now feel the same way about Houllier, even if he returned and got us back challenging the feeling would remain. I still think he could be an asset to the club but worry that if he stays so does his chosen coach which to me looms as a bigger problem.
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I've still yet to see any evidence whatsoever that Houllier is this powerhouse of European football knowledge. To be honest if we're looking at someone with a track record of bringing in players on the cheap, and developing them into stars of the Premier League, we'd be better off appointing Steve Bruce.
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Once a stance is taken against someone it is difficult to see any good in them. I was the same in the last few months of Oneills reign, i think it really started when he bought Heskey when we were in such a good position, after that i could see no positives in him at all. Some now feel the same way about Houllier, even if he returned and got us back challenging the feeling would remain. I still think he could be an asset to the club but worry that if he stays so does his chosen coach which to me looms as a bigger problem.
we have a coach? ;-)
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It would certainly be a newish concept to Villa, John, I agree. When the position of Director of Football is mentioned, I automatically think of someone who breathes down the manager's neck, tells him who to sign, or even worse, introduces a new signing to the manager: "this is Dave, he's playing centre-forward on Saturday... right? RIGHT?" The DoF sticks his nose into the dressing room 15 mins before kick-off and starts shouting over the team talk, that kind of thing...
I'm imagining more of a boardroom-level appointment. Houllier involved in the running of the club, alongside Paul Faulkner who, let's face it, is still reasonably new to this level of football. Something of a day-to-day role. Wouldn't directly be involved in first team matters at all. But probably would be involved in the recruitment of a new manager.
Steve Bruce might be another option, Risso, sure. Not my choice, admittedly.
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To be honest if we're looking at someone with a track record of bringing in players on the cheap, and developing them into stars of the Premier League, we'd be better off appointing Steve Bruce.
Risso drops his Nuclear warhead.
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Merv,
To me that's a more traditional directorship and not something specifically football related. That's one thing, but being in charge of scouting and recomending players to the manager is quite another.
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To be honest if we're looking at someone with a track record of bringing in players on the cheap, and developing them into stars of the Premier League, we'd be better off appointing Steve Bruce.
Risso drops his Nuclear warhead.
It's the Potato Head / Fat Sam upstairs / downstairs dream team nuclear option.
;-)
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I'm not saying that I want Steve Bruce, but people keep talking about Houllier's European knowledge as if he's the next Arsene Wenger. Where's the evidence of this? In the transfer window just gone, we bought one average player from France, got the hopeless Bradley, then two players came from the Premier League. He mostly bought a load of shit at Liverpool, having been lucky enough to inherit an extremely good crop of youngsters.
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Merv,
To me that's a more traditional directorship and not something specifically football related. That's one thing, but being in charge of scouting and recomending players to the manager is quite another.
I must admit, I haven't quite finished typing up the formal job description yet, it needs some tweaking... ;)
I'm prepared to accept that this exact role may not exist at another PL club so perhaps there's not a direct comparison to make. Like a Sporting Director, or Technical Director, maybe. I guess I'm just intrigued by Faulker's comment of following the Ajax model.
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We can agree to disagree on him being "crap". I mainly look at the results. A lot of the supposed positives from his tenure are frankly speculation. My opinion is he was a poor appointment, he's been a poor manager and why we would retain him on the payroll is beyond me. Clean slate for me.
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Its not who he signed, and you cant write off his managerial career and winning all that silverware as luck, its his ability to develop infrastructure and his wealth of experience. And the fact we're light on the ground in this department.
In fact, my main point is not even about Houllier in particular but the need for a certain role in this club that he might be suited for.
I want to get away from having a new man come in every few years and having to reorganise everything to suit. We need to get our house in order, top to bottom and then managers can come and fit into that, not the other way around.
What if another O'Neill came in, neglected all our scouting network, had his assistants chuff 20 B&H on the sidelines whilst the players mill about? Then he's gone and we're left in limbo with no continuity and we have to to take two steps back again. Fuck that. We need a continuous plan.
If Houllier goes now and takes his staff, who decided on football matters at Villa? Sid? K Mac? We're vulnerable.
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Ged has had his share of gaffes as well but the fingers really should be pointed at the players. The best resourced squad in our history earning the highest wages we've ever paid have produced the worst performances for a generation. Overwight smokers, players refusing to play, refusing to move home, hitting coaches, slagging off the city we come from, ducking tackles that our children would make for the club.
I never thought I'd say this about players who play for our Aston Villa , but I really do hate some of our team right now.
Whilst I am very critical of the job Houllier has done I think this is as big a part of it. I especially agree with the second paragraph. I really hope that quite a few of them fuck off and have miserable future careers.
the hopeless Bradley,
For Pete's sake he has only played twice! Once in a weakened team and the other when we were down to ten men. It's not like he's been like sodding Pires.
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the hopeless Bradley,
For Pete's sake he has only played twice! Once in a weakened team and the other when we were down to ten men. It's not like he's been like sodding Pires.
The Man City game he played was one of the worst performances i've seen in a Villa shirt for some time, it is early days, but I don't think he's good enough and I never thought much of him when he played for the USA.
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I thought he was very impressive for USA but he cant have impressed much not to have figured more than he has. Oh well. It was worth having a look for next to nowt.
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While everyone has to take some responsibility for the season our points to games ratio since we signed Bent would be enough to give us a top 8 finish if repeated over the whole season. (19/13x38=55.5). I know there are other factors but for me that's the key one.
The board (and manager) deserve credit for pulling off that deal which has all but guaranteed us staying up.
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Ged has had his share of gaffes as well but the fingers really should be pointed at the players. The best resourced squad in our history earning the highest wages we've ever paid have produced the worst performances for a generation. Overwight smokers, players refusing to play, refusing to move home, hitting coaches, slagging off the city we come from, ducking tackles that our children would make for the club.
I never thought I'd say this about players who play for our Aston Villa , but I really do hate some of our team right now.
Whilst I am very critical of the job Houllier has done I think this is as big a part of it. I especially agree with the second paragraph. I really hope that quite a few of them fuck off and have miserable future careers.
the hopeless Bradley,
For Pete's sake he has only played twice! Once in a weakened team and the other when we were down to ten men. It's not like he's been like sodding Pires.
The very fact that he has only played twice doesn't say anything to you?
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The board (and manager) deserve credit for pulling off that deal which has all but guaranteed us staying up.
Although they do, it was more to do with having the money to spend than any great transfer wizardry. Any of the sides where we were at the time would have pulled clear with a striker like Darren Bent added to their squads.
We bought our way out of trouble.
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Just out of interest, who would you like to see at the helm next season Risso?
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While everyone has to take some responsibility for the season our points to games ratio since we signed Bent would be enough to give us a top 8 finish if repeated over the whole season. (19/13x38=55.5). I know there are other factors but for me that's the key one.
The board (and manager) deserve credit for pulling off that deal which has all but guaranteed us staying up.
That's definitely true.
The first time we were really, really in serious trouble under these owners, they went and smashed our transfer record, and bought us one of the most prolific goalscorers in recent PL history, in a deal that could cost us 24 million pounds.
You have got to respect that kind of reaction.
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The board (and manager) deserve credit for pulling off that deal which has all but guaranteed us staying up.
Although they do, it was more to do with having the money to spend than any great transfer wizardry. Any of the sides where we were at the time would have pulled clear with a striker like Darren Bent added to their squads.
We bought our way out of trouble.
Well, to be honest, if you'd said to any of us before January, "we're going to sign Darren Bent", we'd all have said you were absolutely bonkers, and not just concerning money, but also our ability to pull off a deal like that - get Sunderland to sell in January, get the player to come, not get the deal hijacked, etc etc.
As for affording it, look at how much we're losing season on season, though, "having the money to spend" is one thing, but it is only there if the owner allows it to be spent.
And yes, we bought our way out of trouble. What's wrong with that? Man City are buying themselves into the Champions League. Chelsea bought themselves a couple of titles.
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I didn't say there was anything wrong with it, just that when I hear about points to games ratios being equivalent of 8th, I find myself thinking "Well, so if fucking should be!"
Signing Bent isn't a sign of Gezza's ability as a manager to me, what it is is a sign of a lack thereof as he needed to sign one of th best goal scorers in the league to keep us up when there was plenty of talent already at the club to achieve that.
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Where was the talent to supply goals already at the club?
Carew was looking a busted flush, Gabby was injured, Delfouneso is very much unproven, and Heskey isn't exactly the stuff of keepers' nightmares.
We said for ages we needed a proven goalscorer, and they got us one.
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Where was the talent to supply goals already at the club?
Carew was looking a busted flush, Gabby was injured, Delfouneso is very much unproven, and Heskey isn't exactly the stuff of keepers' nightmares.
Before I say this, just to point out that I'm delighted we have Bent.
Gabby was injured at the start of the season, but there after fit and his goals to game ratio should have seen double figures, if not played wide. And Carew still had somethig to offer as a super-sub if motivated, which Gezza seemed either unwilling or unable to do.
But the biggest issue is the defence, so what he basically did is compensate for that by buying in more goals.
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So, an injured player, an unmotivated player and an untried one.
You're right, Carew shouldn't have been unmotivated, but he was - he's currently warming Stoke City's bench, which says a lot about where he's at these days. Gabby ideally wouldn't have been injured, but he was, and when he came back it was risky to be able to rely on him to score the goals we needed. How many of us would have thought that one even partly reliable striker would be enough?
We had to do something, and they went out and did it big style.
The defence is a different matter, everyone can see it is a disaster zone, but I don't see why that in any way detracts from the fact that we needed a striker in and the board massively exceeded any of our expectations by getting the one they did - and, lest we forget, we'd been told by the media and by ourselves, that we didn't have a pot to piss in, and he'd pulled the plug on the spending all season up till that point.
As Chris pointed out, Bent pretty much guaranteed we'd stay up. Where would we be without him?
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As Chris pointed out, Bent pretty much guaranteed we'd stay up. Where would we be without him?
This is pretty much my point - it shouldn't NEED a £20m striker to keep a side like us in the league. It did because our new manager was making a pigs arse of things.
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I have no doubt had we relied upon Gabby, Carew and Heskey to score the goals to get us out of trouble we would have been relegated.
In all those cases I wouldn't actually point to the manager as being to blame. Carew is both shot and unmotivated, Gabby has been unfit and ring rusty all season and Heskey is to goals what I am to rocket science.
The defence on the other hand...
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As Chris pointed out, Bent pretty much guaranteed we'd stay up. Where would we be without him?
This is pretty much my point - it shouldn't NEED a £20m striker to keep a side like us in the league. It did because our new manager was making a pigs arse of things.
Yes, we know that, but that's not the point at discussion - the point was that the board reacted admirably when we needed to spend. They did so on a scale we've never done before.
To read this place prior to January, you'd think we needed to shift players to club together the money for a Bid for Kevin Doyle if we were going to get a striker in in January.
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As Chris pointed out, Bent pretty much guaranteed we'd stay up. Where would we be without him?
This is pretty much my point - it shouldn't NEED a £20m striker to keep a side like us in the league. It did because our new manager was making a pigs arse of things.
Yes, we know that, but that's not the point at discussion - the point was that the board reacted admirably when we needed to spend. They did so on a scale we've never done before.
To read this place prior to January, you'd think we needed to shift players to club together the money for a Bid for Kevin Doyle if we were going to get a striker in in January.
I applaud the board for doing it, it just doesn't make Houllier a better manager in my eyes.
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There have been fuck ups galore this season, but the Bent signing must have took a lot of effort in it's application and the fact that it was all kept hushy-hushy for a long time.
A big plus for the club in my view.
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There have been fuck ups galore this season, but the Bent signing must have took a lot of effort in it's application and the fact that it was all kept hushy-hushy for a long time.
A big plus for the club in my view.
Walkers signing was a great one too
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There have been fuck ups galore this season, but the Bent signing must have took a lot of effort in it's application and the fact that it was all kept hushy-hushy for a long time.
A big plus for the club in my view.
Walkers signing was a great one too
True, that one was kept nicely quiet as well.
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Why does everyone keep blaming the defence on Houllier, the signs were there in pre-season and certainly under macdonald that the defence was prone to a few errors, we'd conceded 13 in 7 before he started so it's hardly like we were solid until then (yes I know 6 were in 1 game but that does nothing to weaken my point).
Prior to that our record from the new year to the end of last season wasn't that great either (37 in 27 I think, something like that).
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Why does everyone keep blaming the defence on Houllier
Because it's not as good as it was last season and he's the manager. The players need to look at themselves as well.
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Just out of interest, who would you like to see at the helm next season Risso?
If we're going British then David Moyes. Continental then Martin Jol. Although if we can use the same powers we did to land Darren Bent, then Hiddink would be nice. Unlikely though I know.
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There have been fuck ups galore this season, but the Bent signing must have took a lot of effort in it's application and the fact that it was all kept hushy-hushy for a long time.
A big plus for the club in my view.
Walkers signing was a great one too
True, that one was kept nicely quiet as well.
Yes they were undoubtedly good signings. But it hardly takes a genius to pinpoint Darren Bent as a good buy for the club. Even that divvy Mazrim has been banging on about him for the last five years! ;)
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Even when it's a positive you tend to find a negative Risso, don't want to trawl all the way back in the threads but were you against the signing of Houllier in the first place or is your obvious dislike for him as a manager come about as the season progressed?
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Even when it's a positive you tend to find a negative Risso, don't want to trawl all the way back in the threads but were you against the signing of Houllier in the first place or is your obvious dislike for him as a manager come about as the season progressed?
To be fair, Robbo, it's not exactly difficult to understand why people might have come to dislike Houllier over the course of the season, is it?
He\s taken a squad which finished sixth three years running and had it not mathematically guaranteed to stay in the top flight with three games to go, and given us a season sprinkled with gaffes, embarassment and disappointment.
Getting this squad top six this season, given the increased competition, would have been a very tall order, but there's no way on earth it should be anywhere near the bottom six.
I can see some good things he's done, and I'm still undecided about whether I think he should (health permitting) be given a full season, but I can fully understand why lots of people want shot of him asap.
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Paulie i think there is a lot more to the Houllier appointment than we as fans see. I think the owner was determined to get someone in who as a number one priority would reduce the wage bill and at the same time start to bring the youth through. There are many managers i would prefer before Houller but none of them would come to Villa unless you paid them double what they could get elsewhere. Lerners options were very limited coming right at the start of the season, i think there is a book in this for Houllier, so much has happened.
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Paulie i think there is a lot more to the Houllier appointment than we as fans see. I think the owner was determined to get someone in who as a number one priority would reduce the wage bill and at the same time start to bring the youth through. There are many managers i would prefer before Houller but none of them would come to Villa unless you paid them double what they could get elsewhere. Lerners options were very limited coming right at the start of the season, i think there is a book in this for Houllier, so much has happened.
Houllier is rumoured to be on 3m a year, ie one of the highest paid managers in the top flight, though, so he's hardly the cheap option. He's hardly done much to work on the wage bill, either, other than increase it.
You're right, though, his options were limited having to find a manager at that point, and I could see why they went for Houllier, but that doesn't change the fact that this has been an absolutely disastrous season from start to finish, and Gerard has to take a very large chunk of the blame for that.
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I look at the players GH has brought in and i think, yeah this guy could work, he knows a good player when he sees one, and the football overall is better to watch.
Then i think back on the season, how he's got us worrying about relegation, losing 3 derbies in the same season, going to Liverpool and being 2-0 down inside 10 minutes against at the time a very very average team, and last but not least, the utterly pointless stupid idiotic team selection in the F.A Cup. For someone so experienced, he's made far too many mistakes. A change would do everyone good.
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I look at the players GH has brought in and i think, yeah this guy could work, he knows a good player when he sees one, and the football overall is better to watch.
Then i think back on the season, how he's got us worrying about relegation, losing 3 derbies in the same season, going to Liverpool and being 2-0 down inside 10 minutes against at the time a very very average team, and last but not least, the utterly pointless stupid idiotic team selection in the F.A Cup. For someone so experienced, he's made far too many mistakes. A change would do everyone good.
Was it you who said the other day about how infuriating it has been this season that pretty much every time we've looked like getting things "right", he / we have gone and put our big fucking size 11s right in it and made things more complicated than they needed to be? Because that's exactly what has happened.
To give one example, that Man City decision, regardless of whether we had a chance to beat them or not, was a very, very naive one indeed, thinking it wouldn't create ill will.
That was bad enough, but to then come out in the press the next day and say "even with our strongest team, we wouldn't have won anyway" made it 100 times worse. He might feel that way, but to come out and say it? He's supposed to be inspiring us.
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Even when it's a positive you tend to find a negative Risso, don't want to trawl all the way back in the threads but were you against the signing of Houllier in the first place or is your obvious dislike for him as a manager come about as the season progressed?
I wasn't pleased when he was appointed and didn't think it was a good appointment, but was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. As the season has progressed I've become more convinced that it was a poor choice.
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I look at the players GH has brought in and i think, yeah this guy could work, he knows a good player when he sees one, and the football overall is better to watch.
Then i think back on the season, how he's got us worrying about relegation, losing 3 derbies in the same season, going to Liverpool and being 2-0 down inside 10 minutes against at the time a very very average team, and last but not least, the utterly pointless stupid idiotic team selection in the F.A Cup. For someone so experienced, he's made far too many mistakes. A change would do everyone good.
Was it you who said the other day about how infuriating it has been this season that pretty much every time we've looked like getting things "right", he / we have gone and put our big fucking size 11s right in it and made things more complicated than they needed to be? Because that's exactly what has happened.
To give one example, that Man City decision, regardless of whether we had a chance to beat them or not, was a very, very naive one indeed, thinking it wouldn't create ill will.
That was bad enough, but to then come out in the press the next day and say "even with our strongest team, we wouldn't have won anyway" made it 100 times worse. He might feel that way, but to come out and say it? He's supposed to be inspiring us.
Yes it was me Paulie, and you know what, i'm convinced that if he'd have picked a strong side that night up at Man City and kept the momentum going (we'd won 4-1 at home to Blackburn 3 days before) then i reckon we'd have been safe sooner. Yeah we might have lost the game on the night, but he misjudged it that badly, it just seemed to send the team and the club tumbling back down the hole we were half way of getting out of.
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Paulie i think there is a lot more to the Houllier appointment than we as fans see. I think the owner was determined to get someone in who as a number one priority would reduce the wage bill and at the same time start to bring the youth through. There are many managers i would prefer before Houller but none of them would come to Villa unless you paid them double what they could get elsewhere. Lerners options were very limited coming right at the start of the season, i think there is a book in this for Houllier, so much has happened.
I so hope that this is the thing that the general was referring to when he says the board must take its share of the blame and that they have a serious rethink.
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I look at the players GH has brought in and i think, yeah this guy could work, he knows a good player when he sees one, and the football overall is better to watch.
Then i think back on the season, how he's got us worrying about relegation, losing 3 derbies in the same season, going to Liverpool and being 2-0 down inside 10 minutes against at the time a very very average team, and last but not least, the utterly pointless stupid idiotic team selection in the F.A Cup. For someone so experienced, he's made far too many mistakes. A change would do everyone good.
Was it you who said the other day about how infuriating it has been this season that pretty much every time we've looked like getting things "right", he / we have gone and put our big fucking size 11s right in it and made things more complicated than they needed to be? Because that's exactly what has happened.
To give one example, that Man City decision, regardless of whether we had a chance to beat them or not, was a very, very naive one indeed, thinking it wouldn't create ill will.
That was bad enough, but to then come out in the press the next day and say "even with our strongest team, we wouldn't have won anyway" made it 100 times worse. He might feel that way, but to come out and say it? He's supposed to be inspiring us.
Yes it was me Paulie, and you know what, i'm convinced that if he'd have picked a strong side that night up at Man City and kept the momentum going (we'd won 4-1 at home to Blackburn 3 days before) then i reckon we'd have been safe sooner. Yeah we might have lost the game on the night, but he misjudged it that badly, it just seemed to send the team and the club tumbling back down the hole we were half way of getting out of.
Agree with the points raised in these posts from clampy and pauliewalnuts.
The City decision is probably the one thing that I can't really look past with Houllier. I'm sure it probably did more bad than good to the team and its confidence.
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I look at the players GH has brought in and i think, yeah this guy could work, he knows a good player when he sees one, and the football overall is better to watch.
Then i think back on the season, how he's got us worrying about relegation, losing 3 derbies in the same season, going to Liverpool and being 2-0 down inside 10 minutes against at the time a very very average team, and last but not least, the utterly pointless stupid idiotic team selection in the F.A Cup. For someone so experienced, he's made far too many mistakes. A change would do everyone good.
In a nutshell.
The decision in the cup will most likely have far bigger ramifications than simply handicapping our chances of progressing in the comp this year.
It sent out a message clear as day that Aston Villa are no longer interested in the business of competing for trophies. The likes of Ash, Downing and pretty much anyone else at the club with ambition has the perfect excuse now to devise an exit strategy.
A new appointment might go some way to restoring confidence in that regard, but it could well be a case of closing the stable door after the horse has bolted. Once a player becomes disenchanted, of feels he needs to move to further his career you're fighting a losing battle re trying to convince him to commit long term.
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Not only that KG but his agent springs into action and with so much money involved, he'll do everything to convince the player to move.
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So, the board must take its share of the blame. What exactly does this mean? What action can they possibly take other than sacking the Manager?
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I look at the players GH has brought in and i think, yeah this guy could work, he knows a good player when he sees one, and the football overall is better to watch.
Then i think back on the season, how he's got us worrying about relegation, losing 3 derbies in the same season, going to Liverpool and being 2-0 down inside 10 minutes against at the time a very very average team, and last but not least, the utterly pointless stupid idiotic team selection in the F.A Cup. For someone so experienced, he's made far too many mistakes. A change would do everyone good.
In a nutshell.
The decision in the cup will most likely have far bigger ramifications than simply handicapping our chances of progressing in the comp this year.
It sent out a message clear as day that Aston Villa are no longer interested in the business of competing for trophies. The likes of Ash, Downing and pretty much anyone else at the club with ambition has the perfect excuse now to devise an exit strategy.
A new appointment might go some way to restoring confidence in that regard, but it could well be a case of closing the stable door after the horse has bolted. Once a player becomes disenchanted, of feels he needs to move to further his career you're fighting a losing battle re trying to convince him to commit long term.
Exactly, that act of absoloute cowardice did so much damage to the moral of the club and i include the players. Think how you would feel having played well and put a team to the sword and an opportunity to play in an FA Cup match that is on TV to then be told that we are putting out the reserves tonight, i know how i would feel, so what is the point. It was a catalyst, he fucked up and you would have thought that after Anfield he might have worked it out, he didnt he has to go