Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: gervilla on December 02, 2010, 09:53:47 PM
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What with our current run of form,league position and getting knocked out of the league cup by THEM , how long do you think it will be before the cries of "Houllier Out" start to be heard around Villa Park.
Yes , I know, injuries and all that but you just know that can only wash for so long.
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Sack the manager after 11 games. Don't be so ridiculous. The bloke hasn't done anything wrong, we've had zero luck, we've actually played quite well in parts
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True, but after last night we can all see the idiots can make themselves heard very easily.
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It will be a long time and rightly so. He's got a completely inherited side, which is crippled by injury. He has to be given the chance to stamp his mark on the side and get players in who he wants.
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I didn't say sack the manager. Yes we have had shit luck.
Im just asking how long before.....
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Seeing as there weren't cries of O'Leary out or even GT out in the aftermath of 03/03/03 I'd say it will be a good long while before you'd actually hear that at a match.
There will be growing discontent and messageboards like these going into meltdown if we're still this low down the table come Jan/ Feb though, particularly if the plebs are above us.
One thing that bothered me last night was something McLeish said before the match.
"Two evenly matched teams, could go either way." He was right, which was the worst thing about it. But -even allowing for injuries- how can that be the case with the money we've spent since 2006 and the cack he inherited in 2007?
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Seeing as there weren't cries of O'Leary out or even GT out in the aftermath of 03/03/03 I'd say it will be a good long while before you'd actually hear that at a match.
There will be growing discontent and messageboards like these going into meltdown if we're still this low down the table come Jan/ Feb though, particularly if the plebs are above us.
One thing that bothered me last night was something McLeish said before the match.
"Two evenly matched teams, could go either way." He was right, which was the worst thing about it. But -even allowing for injuries- how can that be the case with the money we've spent since 2006 and the cack he inherited in 2007?
Because MON was the one spending the money.
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You've got to give GH until at least January 2012. In that time he'll have two windows, going into a third to stamp his authority on the team.
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Anyone who calls for a manager's head before he's even having had a chance to sign a player is a cast-iron, 18-carat twat.
We're playing better football than under the last bloke. Just making silly mistakes at the back and limited in options up front. You can't blame Houllier for that.
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On the internet there are always those who think their ideas are right and if they wanted somebody other than Houllier they will want him out already. Normal people think sacking a manager after three months, before he's had a chance to buy anyone or even pick a full-strength team, might be a bit premature.
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If we have another love-in at the Liverpool game a bit like the Pires one with Arsenal last week, where the Liverpool fans give him a great reception and then we roll over for them, followed by a disappointing result against the Baggies, it will probably start about then.
We can only keep blaming MON for so long. Houllier's inherited a squad that maybe he doesn't want but it's a squad that finished 6th, took us to Wembley twice and won at OT, Anfield and Arsenal, not to mention beating the Blues regularly.
If he comes out at the start against Liverpool, takes the applause, sits back in the dugout for 90 minutes emotionless, then smiles happily with the Liverpool players after we've shipped another four, I won't be happy for one.
And yes I was happy with O'Neill and would happily take his results over nice football.
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There is no accounting for idiots so you may hear the odd shout but anybody who actually understands anything will not be shouting that, injuries late inherited team with season started and no time yet ....but as I say you cannot account for lack of common sense
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You'd take Oneil's results.
Martin has set the club back years, he spent millions on average players and expensive wages.
As soon as he couldn't spend spend spend he fucked off at the worst possible time, he didn't even have the dignity to show some respect too the fans. He left at a time that would cause maximum damage.
I will never forgive Oneil.
On Houllier he brought the passion back for me, I was getting abit bored of knowing every team selection, knowing what sub would come on and knowing how one-dimensional we'd play.
Houllier is playing much better football and is allowing our youth to develop and he isn't moaning about all our injuries.
Houllier has a real pedigree and must be given time to succeed.
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To answer the OP's question, not long if we continue to lose. However wrong it may be, there will always be people who think their team has a divine right to win football matches.
The current manager needs to be given until at least the end of next season IMO.
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To the poster above who said that we finished sixth with the same squad under MON i would say remember the massive slumps two years running when we had vitually a full list to choose from. Anyone even thinking that this is somehow GHs fault should take a reality check. MON spent a fortune and was given the freedom to buy the players he wanted, the fact that a lot of them turned out to be dross cannot suddenly be blamed on GH. I think Martin got off very lightly the way he abandoned the club, the players and the supporters.
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I don't think it would take long unfortunately. Whatever the reasons oneil left, it's not a typical state for a club to change manager. We as fans have become used to a certain level of results and currently are falling well short of that. New managers should be given time but normally they come in when a manager has left after underperforming and expectations are low.
Houllier has had rotten luck with injuries but more worryingly as kevingages post above illustrated when comparing us to blose it highlights the problems with our squad. Unlike the other teams around us with mid table squads though we have a fanbase with higher than midtable expectations and that's going to put a lot more pressure on houllier, however undeserved, in the same way as hodgson at Liverpool.
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Like any manager Gerard Houllier will be judged on the league table at the end of the season – I say that with confidence because I don’t believe the owners will be stupid enough to push him out if results do not improve quickly. Put simply, is there a better realistic candidate out there that we would be gunning for?
He needs to bring in players he wants, to whittle down our injury list and to have time to coach the squad to play his way. By common consent of people in the game this can only be done pre-season, so we have to accept that this is very much a painful transition season for us.
There are genuine positive signs in our play but we are defending poorly as a team and we do not convert enough chances, Man U and Fulham being gold plated examples of this in the past few weeks. Some individuals are also well below last season’s form – Warnock and Luke Young in particular, and Carew looks like a plodder when he does appear. At the moment I am fearful of a relegation battle but hope the transfer window and returning players will make a difference, primarily in experience and guile, since the youngsters are doing better than I expected.
I am hoping this will be a replica of O’Leary’s first season where we were pretty poor until December when a 1-0 win over Southampton sparked a cracking run of form after which we never looked back. In reality improved football, enough points to stave off fears of a relegation battle and wins in all our remaining derbies will keep me patient for this season. But I would then expect far more next season - this is the same squad that has finished 6th for three consecutive years.
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For me this posting says it all ..
McLeish said before the match
"Two evenly matched teams, could go either way."
Surely this is an indication of how poorly we are playing at the moment, what an opportunity for the noses to crow about, pity it doesn't make them release how badly they are playing if we are the benchmark.
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He needs 3 seasons to sort it out, it's way too early to judge him yet.
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It will be a long time and rightly so. He's got a completely inherited side, which is crippled by injury. He has to be given the chance to stamp his mark on the side and get players in who he wants.
My thoughts exactly, barring the actions of a minority of idiots.
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There'll be discontent but I don't think any of it has been laid at Houllier's door. o'Neill takes a large chunk of the finger-pointing, and the board whatever is left. The time to judge Houllier will be next season. let's just hope we get through this one showing signs of promise for next season.
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If Villa had a full strength squad and were in this position then I think that suggesting that Houllier might not be the right manager could be justified.
However, the injury/illness situation means that he cannot really be judged yet.
In any case, I think that managers (short of being a total disaster) need to be given at least two transfer windows
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A defeat against the Albion might start a bit of discontent amongst some. My view is that despite having players out, we should be beating or at least getting a point out of teams like Blackburn and Small Heath.
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thing is Houllier is the manager its his coaching staff his regime and sadly Mon's squad.
Many of us suggested it wasn't good enough to cope with too many injuries to key players and that's how its panned out, but Houllier has the job and if it goes sour its his fault.
Yes there are all sorts of mitigating circumstances for which I mostly blame Mon, but its Houllier who carries the blame if it goes wrong and no matter how much we don't like thosse who dare criticise they have every right to if they must.
The real losers though are those who still desire to back and support the traiterorous shit who caused the problem even when its obvious he's done far more harm to the club simply by ensuring his own inflated ego remains intact.
I hope GH pulls it off, it will not be easy.
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There'll be discontent but I don't think any of it has been laid at Houllier's door.
I'd disagree with that.
I'm far from wanting him out or anthing like that and can see what he's trying to do and am glad with the direction he seems to want to take us in. Further more he gets a LOT of leeway from the fact he's had a crippling injury list and not been able to sign his own players.
But......
He's had the same basic defence as last year, yet we've been shit at the back with silly errors costing us goals and games. Why?
A lot on here criticised MON for not trying 4-5-1 more often. For me it's about variation, so why has he NEVER started with two strikers? (Maybe slightly unfair that given the injuries)
Ireland may have been shit, but I don't think the way he's handling him will ever work with his fragile personality/confidence. OK if he wants him out, but otherwise it shows poor man management, IMO.
Like I said, anyone who wants him out is a borderline mentalist, yet we should be doing better than we are.
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Some numpties are calling for his head already on here, so unfortunately I'm not sure how long it will be. He needs a season at the absolute least to be able to make his mark on the squad.
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If Houllier had been year for say 2 seasons wand won 2 in 11 his job would be on the line
he has to be given time but what happens if we end up winning say 3 out of 15?
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Don't get what he's trying to do at all, our 4 backs are stoppers first and foremost yet he's trying to use them to pass the ball forward and start all attacks, they are obviously not comfortable with this and their nervousness is showing in the mistakes they are making. Davies, Cuellar and Beye in reserve are even worse at distribution, so I don't know why he's not trying to play to the strengths of the squad rather than force players to be what they clearly are not. If this is how he wants to play I can see him looking at replacing the whole back 4 with new players in the next 2 windows. I hate the fact we roll over so easily to poor teams like Blackburn and concede so many late goals. I don't think we were any better earlier this season with Petrov and NRC in the team either, just look at the Vienna, Stoke and Newcastle games, so I don't accept having those 2 back will make a dramatic difference, it will help obviously, but even with them fit central midfield is a weaker area for us. I thought his tactics v Blues at home were rotten and probably Arsenal too, Pires and Carew were like statues, Ireland and Delfouneso should have started.
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I disagree that he's not played 2 up front, he's done that frequently this season, Young has played up front numerous times.
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If this is how he wants to play I can see him looking at replacing the whole back 4 with new players in the next 2 windows.
I think we'd be OK passing wise with a central partnership of Collins and Clark, which could be his longterm thinking, but I am increasingly expecting to see two new fullbacks brought in.
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I disagree that he's not played 2 up front, he's done that frequently this season, Young has played up front numerous times.
That's a 4-4-1-1 formation at best. I'm talking about two recognised strikers starting a game together.
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Although the defence has bene poor it has been exposed by a very inexperienced central-midfield. take away the Newcastle debacle and its only been in thre last month or so where the defence really has been dire and that is when we have had the youngsters playing in front of them. just a lack of experience exposing those at the back. that makes their job extra hard as they get sucked out of the position they are supposed to be in to try and cut out the ball being put through.
i'm not blaming the midfield for this but it is what it is. On top of the players anxiety gets raised when goals get shipped in leading to a loss of confidence. You defend as a teamn and not a back 4, or 5. getting the little nick on a header, a block, an interception, it really all should be done befor ethe back 4 have to clear up or defend deep. We are being dragged out of our shape and until the midfield can learn to keep their shape then the back 4 will always be on a hiding to nothing.
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I do think he has less margin for error than most of the managers we've recently appointed.
MON was a popular choice at the time, and that gave him breathing space when we had a horror run between Nov 2006-March 07. Even DOL was the fans favourite for the gig according to polls in 2003, so again, he had room for manoeuvre when we had a slow start in 2003/04. Combined with a tendency to blame all our ills on Ellis, of course.
GT wasn't the overwhelming favourite for the gig in 2002, but had a fair degree of latitude owing to respect most had for the job he did first time around.
Houllier has none of that. Most will understand that his arrival was down to timing as much as anything else but the fact is he wasn't a popular choice. Health concerns, being virtually in semi retirement, his latter years at Liverpool and all the rest of it.
Winning the LC would have given the appointment some real credibility but going out in the manner we did won't have helped his cause.
He needs support from the board to bring his own players in and to implement his ideas. But in the same way that winning can become a habit not winning can become one too. If we finish the season roughly where we are now he could well be on his way in the summer. Or if not then, certainly if we have a slow start to 2011/12.
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I'm hopeful that we can pull out of this slump but i won't feel comfortable until we reverse the worst defensive record since we were last relegated. Things will be very tense if we are in the relegation zone when we go back to the sty in January.
When you consider how much disturbance there was around O'Neill in the months leading up to his resignation, we shouldn't have been caught completely on the hop.
I don't know if/when people will start to seriously call for his head and I don't know how Houlier and/or Lerner will react to that if it happens. I just hope Faulkner is doing his homework this time.
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If this is how he wants to play I can see him looking at replacing the whole back 4 with new players in the next 2 windows.
I think we'd be OK passing wise with a central partnership of Collins and Clark, which could be his longterm thinking, but I am increasingly expecting to see two new fullbacks brought in.
Cueller, Collins, Dunne and L Young was the tightest defence in the league last season when they played together.
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If this is how he wants to play I can see him looking at replacing the whole back 4 with new players in the next 2 windows.
I think we'd be OK passing wise with a central partnership of Collins and Clark, which could be his longterm thinking, but I am increasingly expecting to see two new fullbacks brought in.
Cueller, Collins, Dunne and L Young was the tightest defence in the league last season when they played together.
This is what puzzles me.
The kids have done okay, but it's the above very experienced back 3 of 4 that have let us down.
If they'd played to their potential, we'd be in the top 6 now, despite the crippling injuries.
Cuellar has to come in now.
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He needs at least 2 seasons to sort us out in my opinion
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He needs at least 2 seasons to sort us out in my opinion
Given that he inherited a squad that was hardly changed from that which finished top 6, I'd say it's two windows he needs not two seasons. I'd expect us to be flying from August 2011 onwards.
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I do think he has less margin for error than most of the managers we've recently appointed.
MON was a popular choice at the time, and that gave him breathing space when we had a horror run between Nov 2006-March 07...
That run was very similar to the form we've shown so far this season, I nthink the biggest difference between then and now is that we were on 21 points from 12 games and in 3rd place when the slump started.
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We have to give him time, he has to bring in his own players that's at least two transfer windows and then he has to get them to play his way which will take time, i think the youngster's have done fantastic job for us while the injured players have been out so i am happy to give him the time he need's.
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No Young has played right up top at times no question, he was bought as a striker as well. It wasn't just Newcastle early doors we were leaky at the back, Vienna at home and Stoke away spring to mind too and we weren't too sharp at Spurs either.
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I actually think a big part of our problem is that Young goes too far forward, leaving him with his back to goal and pretty much ineffective.
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No Young has played right up top at times no question, he was bought as a striker as well.
Sorry, but no he hasn't and no he wasn't. Yes, there have been times when he's found himself in the centre foward position, such as when he's the only man left upfield when we're defending set pieces and therefore spearheading any counter attacks, but when we have the ball he's involved deeper and wide.
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A friend of mine is a (reasonably) well-known Sky Sports reporter and since the day Houllier arrived he's been constantly telling me I'll be calling for him to go by Christmas. I keep telling him that the likes of Bannan and Albrighton would still be in the stiffs or on loan, let alone NRC being on the pitch, and that I'll judge him this time next year when he's had a couple of transfer windows, an opportunity to shift the deadwood, a full uninjured squad and a full pre-season to really stamp his style on our play.
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No Young has played right up top at times no question, he was bought as a striker as well.[/quote
Actually Young was bought as a striker and played his first few games in that position before being put out wide, where he was cack for a while until he settled in to the role.
Sorry, but no he hasn't and no he wasn't. Yes, there have been times when he's found himself in the centre foward position, such as when he's the only man left upfield when we're defending set pieces and therefore spearheading any counter attacks, but when we have the ball he's involved deeper and wide.
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Like I said, anyone who wants him out is a borderline mentalist
http://astonvilla-views.com/2010/12/01/late-goals-and-rubbish-defending-cost-us-and-houllier-does-nothing-avfc/#more-7434
The prosecution rests, m'lud.
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A friend of mine is a (reasonably) well-known Sky Sports reporter and since the day Houllier arrived he's been constantly telling me I'll be calling for him to go by Christmas.
Sky Sports News - Never Wrong For Long
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Who wrote that article?
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Who wrote that article?
Quite a small number of baboons with an infinite number of typewriters
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The best bit about that article was the targeted ad reminding me of a handy €5 all you can eat sushi bar in Toulouse where my web browser thinks I live.
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A friend of mine is a (reasonably) well-known Sky Sports reporter and since the day Houllier arrived he's been constantly telling me I'll be calling for him to go by Christmas. I keep telling him that the likes of Bannan and Albrighton would still be in the stiffs or on loan, let alone NRC being on the pitch, and that I'll judge him this time next year when he's had a couple of transfer windows, an opportunity to shift the deadwood, a full uninjured squad and a full pre-season to really stamp his style on our play.
I think MON would have certainly played Albrighton and he had brought Bannan back from loan from Blackpool too (altho Bannan didn't seem MON's biggest fan following that article after he left). I agree I doubt Bannan would have made the advances he has this season but I think Albrighton probably would have.
Altho I recognise that may be wishful thinking on my part
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This is a really difficult period for us, we'll be fine in the second half of the season don't worry.
Time to judge Houllier starts the first day of next season.
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never wanted him, don't like the fact that he is always revered for the job he did at liverpool (i mean if you can't win trophy's when you manage the biggest cheats in world football, where can you?).I am currenly hoping and praying that we are not in a dogfight come May,but i feel we will be.
Please Gerard go back and find the rock you crawled out from and go back!!!!
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never wanted him, don't like the fact that he is always revered for the job he did at liverpool (i mean if you can't win trophy's when you manage the biggest cheats in world football, where can you?).I am currenly hoping and praying that we are not in a dogfight come May,but i feel we will be.
Please Gerard go back and find the rock you crawled out from and go back!!!!
And what about the job he did for Lyon ??
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Who wrote that article?
I'll give you three guesses.
Teh first two don't count.
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thing is Houllier is the manager its his coaching staff his regime and sadly Mon's squad.
Many of us suggested it wasn't good enough to cope with too many injuries to key players and that's how its panned out, but Houllier has the job and if it goes sour its his fault.
Yes there are all sorts of mitigating circumstances for which I mostly blame Mon, but its Houllier who carries the blame if it goes wrong and no matter how much we don't like thosse who dare criticise they have every right to if they must.
The real losers though are those who still desire to back and support the traiterorous shit who caused the problem even when its obvious he's done far more harm to the club simply by ensuring his own inflated ego remains intact.
I hope GH pulls it off, it will not be easy.
I am so glad there is someone to put everything in perspective. And the way you keep those Mon revisionists in check is fantastic. Keep up the good work and please ignore the people who abuse you because you are a deeply special person.
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A friend of mine is a (reasonably) well-known Sky Sports reporter and since the day Houllier arrived he's been constantly telling me I'll be calling for him to go by Christmas. I keep telling him that the likes of Bannan and Albrighton would still be in the stiffs or on loan, let alone NRC being on the pitch, and that I'll judge him this time next year when he's had a couple of transfer windows, an opportunity to shift the deadwood, a full uninjured squad and a full pre-season to really stamp his style on our play.
I think MON would have certainly played Albrighton and he had brought Bannan back from loan from Blackpool too (altho Bannan didn't seem MON's biggest fan following that article after he left). I agree I doubt Bannan would have made the advances he has this season but I think Albrighton probably would have.
Altho I recognise that may be wishful thinking on my part
As we were constantly linked with McGeady through the summer window I don't quite think we'd have seen as much of Albrighton as we have had.
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As a side issue, I'm kind of rattled by the kind of players we seem to be being linked with in the January window. I'm not expecting Leo Messi but I thought we were past the Keane/Piquionne level that appeared to be MON's natural stomping ground.
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I like watching us play again...that has to be worth something...Houlier must be given 2 full seasons at least.
4/5 excellent youth players coming through. Keane and Piquionne would be brave and exciting, bring it on!
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As a side issue, I'm kind of rattled by the kind of players we seem to be being linked with in the January window. I'm not expecting Leo Messi but I thought we were past the Keane/Piquionne level that appeared to be MON's natural stomping ground.
I know what you mean, but it is just idle press talk thus far. We'll find out soon enough what kind of player he's in the market for.
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the one thing that Houlier has failed to address is our woeful defending, it could be argued that he has not had many options but thier is something seriously wrong with 4 of our back 5 and he needs to address this
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Let's keep him, I love the football he's playing
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Only idiots would want Houllier out. He's brand new and trying to invoke positive football... it's going to take time but IT WILL benefit us in the long term. When we get it right we'll be back.
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thing is Houllier is the manager its his coaching staff his regime and sadly Mon's squad.
Many of us suggested it wasn't good enough to cope with too many injuries to key players and that's how its panned out, but Houllier has the job and if it goes sour its his fault.
Yes there are all sorts of mitigating circumstances for which I mostly blame Mon, but its Houllier who carries the blame if it goes wrong and no matter how much we don't like thosse who dare criticise they have every right to if they must.
So, if MoN had still been here and having to deal with our current injury crisi, we'd still be at (or about) 6th place? Is that what you're trying to suggest here? That, if it all goes pear-shaped, the blame lies solely at Houllier's door?
Insanity. Utter insanity, even by your insane standards.
If MoN had been here, we'd certainly have been no better off. In fact, I wonder if he'd still be trying to play half the players that are currently injured...he seemed to have a penchant for driving players into the ground. It was obvious to even the MoN supporters that he had no 'Plan B'. Our current situation would have been quite bemusing under O'Neill.
- "That's my standard starting 11"
- "But most of them are injured, Martin"
- "Terrific, but that's my starting 11".
- "But you can't play them."
- "I don't really understand why"
- "THEY. ARE. BROKEN"
- "But they are my starting 11. Plan A. And Plan B"
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We have no choice but to stick with Houllier. It would be madness to sack him peremptorily even if he gets us relegated which I truly believe he may well do.
HOWEVER. I do not think he should have been chosen as our manager in the first place.
The single most overwhelming principle in the achievement of success in any kind of venture is that you invest in tomorrow not yesterday.
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We have no choice but to stick with Houllier. It would be madness to sack him peremptorily even if he gets us relegated which I truly believe he may well do.
HOWEVER. I do not think he should have been chosen as our manager in the first place.
The single most overwhelming principle in the achievement of success in any kind of venture is that you invest in tomorrow not yesterday.
I'm not a fan of Houllier either. Don't know why - just don't like him. And I don't think he'll do much more than mid-table. I think perhaps that might be why the senior players seem so out of sorts. They were brought in to compete for a place in the top four and now all they have to do is avoid relegation.
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I don't think he'll do much more than mid-table. I think perhaps that might be why the senior players seem so out of sorts.
The senior players value your opinion that much? I'm impressed.
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I don't think he'll do much more than mid-table. I think perhaps that might be why the senior players seem so out of sorts.
The senior players value your opinion that much? I'm impressed.
It's making my life a misery. I'm going to report them to BT - I can't see any other way of getting some peace and quiet.
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Who wrote that article?
I'll give you three guesses.
Teh first two don't count.
This bit was funny though
Steve Majors says:
December 2, 2010 at 18:29
IanRobo is only happy when he is knocking one out over O’Neill
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Under Hou I get the feeling that we will trundle along, picking up some good results along the way, playing good football but ultimatley not troubling the top six or the Wembley ticket office. Thats what I felt when we appointed him and nothing since has changed my mind.
Nice guy, good football but no fire in the belly and limited ambition.
He has to be given time though, to prove naysayers like myself wrong. Heres hoping.
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If we lose at home to the Baggies then I think he might start getting some real stick but such is the short termism of fans if we win the same people will be singing his name.
I also think the transfer window is key for him. People have already decided that because he's not MON he'll be signing stars from all over the world and I've a feeling that they're going to be disappointed. If he wants players to do a job immediately he's probably going to look for those with PL experience. I just hope that isn't then used a stick with which to beat him.
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I'm with Chris on this for both points. As we have seen some of the more reactionary posters on here already have been calling for his head. A couple of bad results against Liverpool and Albion and there will be more of them both on here and at the match.
Some people just haven't taken to him and so have been against him from the start. MoN was a tough act to follow and due to a number of factors Houllier hasn't had a fair crack of the whip yet. Sadly, some people refuse to acknowledge that largely due to this not taking to him.
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Most Villa fans are waiting to see what he does in the January transfer window before forming an opinion.
Until then, he's not been able to have much of a say in shaping his won team together, and injuries to so many key players is against him.
God knows how we'd be doing if MON was in charge with so many players out.
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Worst case scenario: We play attractive football, the youngsters get even better but just get relegated (I know , it's a painful thought). We come straight back up much the stronger for it keeping the same best nucleus of the team with a top notch striker and begin the start of something great with a lot of longevity.
AND playing great football too. This crop we have now remind me of manure's in 93 (the ones we stuffed 3-1)
Best Case: after a half dozen or so more games and with some good signings ( Keane and Piquioone will do me) in January we make the Europa league, maybe get to the FA Cup Final with some favourable draws and really do a Spurz next season. I'm optimistic, granted the guy isn't really oozing with charisma but I like the way he's thinking even if results could be better, either scenario, he needs to be given 2 seasons IMO.
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Most Villa fans are waiting to see what he does in the January transfer window before forming an opinion.
Until then, he's not been able to have much of a say in shaping his won team together, and injuries to so many key players is against him.
God knows how we'd be doing if MON was in charge with so many players out.
Agree apart from your last sentence Tim. Why would Martin O Neill be doing any worse than Houllier is currently doing? It sometimes feels (not necessarily you, just a general point) like I'm listening to a mate who is running his ex girlfriend down in order to make being dumped less painful :)
I think a MON side would be grinding out draws, but just because I think it doesn't make it so. All about opinions I guess.
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Gazza, relegation is not an option.
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We are up against it because of the injuries. Not just the long term ones but the constant team changes due to minor injuries and illness.
Our situation with injuries is showing up the limitations of MON as a manager. He had a frst XI and not much else. If he had half the injuries we currently have, we would have been in the same position. We were lucky with injuries for most of MON's time here, other than ML and WB.
GH has to be given time to improve the squad, otherwise it will have been a waste of time appointing him. I suppose we have been caught up in the negative point of the transfer window and only being able to sign players twice a year.
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Under Hou I get the feeling that we will trundle along, picking up some good results along the way, playing good football but ultimatley not troubling the top six or the Wembley ticket office. Thats what I felt when we appointed him and nothing since has changed my mind.
Nice guy, good football but no fire in the belly and limited ambition.
He has to be given time though, to prove naysayers like myself wrong. Heres hoping.
I feel the same. He seems like a genuinely nice bloke who has the club's best interests at heart, but just doesn't come across as someone who is going to pull up trees. He needs at least a season to make any kind of impact.
It was always going to be difficult to replace MON as he was a talismanic figure who on the whole got results and put fear into the opposition.
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We were lucky with injuries for most of MON's time here, other than ML and WB.
That's a good point. For whatever reason (if any), MON was extraordinarily lucky with injuries his whole time here (bar the two you mention).
I get the feeling that right now, we're paying back three or four years "good luck" with our injury list.
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I don't necessarily think it's right to attribute our injury record (or lack of) under MON purely down to luck.
There would be a degree of fortune in the sense that we would rarely have a big player for us out for any length of time, I accept that. Any contact sport played with the intensity of football will normally generate a fair few injuries.
But perhaps his approach to training partly helped in that regard. It might have been tactically lacking and all the rest of it, but it at least kept the players fresh.
I'm not saying his way was right and GH's is automatically wrong. But I do think GH tried to do too much to soon and I'm not entirely convinced that our spate of injuries aren't in some way connected to the increase of intensity re training.
Hindsight being 20/20 vision and all that, but maybe he'd have been better served implementing his approach gradually or leaving most of the major physical work until pre season.
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the atmosphere around the club July / Milner Gate the fall out with MON no fitness coach for some critical periods also probably had some bearing on fitness and injurys,
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Most managers would struggle with our injury list, loss of form or interest from some senior players, and poor technique of others. It would be harsh indeed to judge Houllier until he has a full squad to choose from and has been able to make a few signings. Plus the football is 100 times better than the dross served up by O'Neill.
That said, I'm not sure good football should be a priority at the moment - digging in and making ourselves hard to beat might be a better option looking at most of our next 10 or so fixtures.
I do, however, have some minor concerns with GH. He does sometimes come across as lacking a bit of "fire in the belly" as someone else put it, and I also find it odd that, with such a depleted squad , an experienced and useful CB in Curtis Davies is out on loan. But generally I think he is trying to do things in the right way.
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I don't necessarily think it's right to attribute our injury record (or lack of) under MON purely down to luck.
There would be a degree of fortune in the sense that we would rarely have a big player for us out for any length of time, I accept that. Any contact sport played with the intensity of football will normally generate a fair few injuries.
But perhaps his approach to training partly helped in that regard. It might have been tactically lacking and all the rest of it, but it at least kept the players fresh.
I'm not saying his way was right and GH's is automatically wrong. But I do think GH tried to do too much to soon and I'm not entirely convinced that our spate of injuries aren't in some way connected to the increase of intensity re training.
Hindsight being 20/20 vision and all that, but maybe he'd have been better served implementing his approach gradually or leaving most of the major physical work until pre season.
Could be that the average age of MON's team was creaping up and the injuries are a reflection of this and new training methods are just coincidental and an easy answer.
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I think going from one two hour training session per day (with Wednesday off) to double training sessions and no days off in a short space of time would be a factor, particularly with no conditioning coach between Aug- Oct.
Other injuries picked up in regular match situations and the type of ailment which is currently keeping Albrighton out is one thing. But the sheer volume of injuries we've had in such a short space of time can't, I don't think, be put down purely to bad luck or players getting older. The latter two factors prob do play a part too though.
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As a side issue, I'm kind of rattled by the kind of players we seem to be being linked with in the January window. I'm not expecting Leo Messi but I thought we were past the Keane/Piquionne level that appeared to be MON's natural stomping ground.
Being linked with someone is a massive step forward.
I know what you mean, but it is just idle press talk thus far. We'll find out soon enough what kind of player he's in the market for.
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I think going from one two hour training session per day (with Wednesday off) to double training sessions and no days off in a short space of time would be a factor, particularly with no conditioning coach between Aug- Oct.
According to Janine Self this never happened. There was one double session when everyone was off international duty.
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If this is how he wants to play I can see him looking at replacing the whole back 4 with new players in the next 2 windows.
I think we'd be OK passing wise with a central partnership of Collins and Clark, which could be his longterm thinking, but I am increasingly expecting to see two new fullbacks brought in.
Cueller, Collins, Dunne and L Young was the tightest defence in the league last season when they played together.
Blimey?!
I spent ages last season arguing with you on various threads that our defence record was much better when Luke was in our back 4 and now you've used that quote!
Tsk.
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We were lucky with injuries for most of MON's time here, other than ML and WB.
That's a good point. For whatever reason (if any), MON was extraordinarily lucky with injuries his whole time here (bar the two you mention).
I get the feeling that right now, we're paying back three or four years "good luck" with our injury list.
Just use the case of Gabby. Such a key player for us. He missed about 5 games in 4 seasons under the previous manager. I don't think he's started 5 games under Houllier yet.
Albrighton was fantastic against Manure and hasn't played a game since.
Until we can get a consistant first 11 out for 5 games in a row as we frequently did in the past few seasons (so much so everyone was fcuked around March time) we won't see a consistant run of results.
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MoN had to deal with injury problems to deal with on top of Laursen and Bouma. Let's not forget that.
He just had a different way of dealing with it, is all.
Both Petrov and Davies played though injuries and, from memory, Milner played when he was also some way short of 100%. Gabby too, I think? The day a senior player crawled off the physio's table, he was selected.
MoN just played them. Because he had no Plan B. What choice did he have?
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I think we're in the middle of seeing the effects of MON's overplaying of Gabby.
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If this is how he wants to play I can see him looking at replacing the whole back 4 with new players in the next 2 windows.
I think we'd be OK passing wise with a central partnership of Collins and Clark, which could be his longterm thinking, but I am increasingly expecting to see two new fullbacks brought in.
Cueller, Collins, Dunne and L Young was the tightest defence in the league last season when they played together.
Blimey?!
I spent ages last season arguing with you on various threads that our defence record was much better when Luke was in our back 4 and now you've used that quote!
Tsk.
If you did argue with me it would most probably have been because you were advocating replacing Cuellar with Young. I consistently argued that Carlos at RB was the right choice due to the cover he provided for Dunne/Collins and at set-pieces.
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I am deeply depressed at the piece in yesterday's NoTW that we are hoping to get Miete on loan from the Albion in January. Is that what Aston Villa Football Club has come to? Borrowing the Albion's cast offs?
If that is the measure of our ambitions relegation beckons.
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I am deeply depressed at the piece in yesterday's NoTW that we are hoping to get Miete on loan from the Albion in January. Is that what Aston Villa Football Club has come to? Borrowing the Albion's cast offs?
If that is the measure of our ambitions relegation beckons.
I don't get over excited by links with Benzema and I don't get overly worked up bu ones like this either. Know why? Because they're both made up crap.
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I am deeply depressed at the piece in yesterday's NoTW that we are hoping to get Miete on loan from the Albion in January. Is that what Aston Villa Football Club has come to? Borrowing the Albion's cast offs?
If that is the measure of our ambitions relegation beckons.
I don't get over excited by links with Benzema and I don't get overly worked up bu ones like this either. Know why? Because they're both made up crap.
Your logic is impeccable and I completely agree, John M
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There are mitigating circumstances, injuries etc but no job is easy at this level. The players in many cases are on the wane but this is a squad of pretty solid players with some exciting young players coming through. It is not ideal but even with all those mitigating circumstances we should be doing better. This is the worst EPL season in terms of quality in recent seasons. Even with injuries I still think we have had a better group of individuals on the pitch than Fulham, Blackburn, Sunderland etc. I get the feeling that Houllier isn't overly enamoured with the players he has and with the likes of Young stalling on a contract I reckon some of the players aren't fully gone on him either. But it is up to the manager to get the most out of the players at his disposal and to be frank that is not happening at the moment. To be fair I thought Houllier improved the defence from the shambles of Kevin Macs reign but since Reo Coker's injury we have reverted to that shambles again with all players struggling individually and collectively. The team quite honestly look a soft touch at the moment, easy on the
eye but capitulate under pressure.
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There are mitigating circumstances, injuries etc but no job is easy at this level. The players in many cases are on the wane but this is a squad of pretty solid players with some exciting young players coming through. It is not ideal but even with all those mitigating circumstances we should be doing better. This is the worst EPL season in terms of quality in recent seasons. Even with injuries I still think we have had a better group of individuals on the pitch than Fulham, Blackburn, Sunderland etc. I get the feeling that Houllier isn't overly enamoured with the players he has and with the likes of Young stalling on a contract I reckon some of the players aren't fully gone on him either. But it is up to the manager to get the most out of the players at his disposal and to be frank that is not happening at the moment. To be fair I thought Houllier improved the defence from the shambles of Kevin Macs reign but since Reo Coker's injury we have reverted to that shambles again with all players struggling individually and collectively. The team quite honestly look a soft touch at the moment, easy on the
eye but capitulate under pressure.
All that, plus, no cutting edge.
We had so much of the ball at the Sty without really troubling their defence.
Re. Houllier, agnostic seems to be the word.
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Like I said, anyone who wants him out is a borderline mentalist
http://astonvilla-views.com/2010/12/01/late-goals-and-rubbish-defending-cost-us-and-houllier-does-nothing-avfc/#more-7434
The prosecution rests, m'lud.
I've just spit tea all over my screen.
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Like I said, anyone who wants him out is a borderline mentalist
http://astonvilla-views.com/2010/12/01/late-goals-and-rubbish-defending-cost-us-and-houllier-does-nothing-avfc/#more-7434
The prosecution rests, m'lud.
I've just spit tea all over my screen.
Christ almighty!
At Robo's mentalness, not your tea spluttering, Lee.
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If this is how he wants to play I can see him looking at replacing the whole back 4 with new players in the next 2 windows.
I think we'd be OK passing wise with a central partnership of Collins and Clark, which could be his longterm thinking, but I am increasingly expecting to see two new fullbacks brought in.
Cueller, Collins, Dunne and L Young was the tightest defence in the league last season when they played together.
Blimey?!
I spent ages last season arguing with you on various threads that our defence record was much better when Luke was in our back 4 and now you've used that quote!
Tsk.
If you did argue with me it would most probably have been because you were advocating replacing Cuellar with Young. I consistently argued that Carlos at RB was the right choice due to the cover he provided for Dunne/Collins and at set-pieces.
Nope wrong again.
My main point was Young should've been at RB and Carlos should've replaced Collins alongside Dunney as i felt that was marginally the better combination at the time before Dunne became a fat lazy slob again.
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er.....about now? Have a look at the post match thread. As Nev text me the day MON left "we will rue the day"
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Im predicting when we are 2 down to Albion after 20 minutes.