Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine

Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: aldridgeboy on December 01, 2010, 09:56:50 PM

Title: Our Centre Halves
Post by: aldridgeboy on December 01, 2010, 09:56:50 PM
Whilst I dont blame Houllier for our current run, he surely must have some influence in why our central defensive partnership has gone from rock solid last season to bloody awful this season.

Dunne is a totally different player..overweight, slow ( I know he was never quick but...) and makes more mistakes every game.
Collins has also had a bad season thus far although his slump is not on the scale of Dunne.

Carlos must be sitting on the sideline and wondering what he must have to do to get a game. I know he has had injuries but he has surely gotta start now.

Did MON have a particularly good defensive coach?? The change in a few months for two of our previously solid players is drastic. I realise that the midfield in front of them is a lot more lightweight than last season but its more than that surely?
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: PaulWinch again on December 01, 2010, 09:58:41 PM
In fairness Cuellar has just come back from injury, but he must be played. Dunne cannot continue playing like this, and Collins has been rubbish for a weeks now.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: villa1 on December 01, 2010, 10:00:03 PM
Like dog shit in Scarborough.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: sideshow on December 01, 2010, 10:00:29 PM
Dunne is a carthorse.  Absolutley shocking and costs us a goal every game.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: aldridgeboy on December 01, 2010, 10:00:39 PM
What worries me though is Cuellar wasn't injured a while ago and still wasn't getting picked.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: The Left Side on December 01, 2010, 10:00:58 PM
Clark will eventually play there when our midfield come back from injury, I agree that Dunne is not the player he was a year ago and what was Collins doing at the end giving away stupid fouls??
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: TonyD on December 01, 2010, 10:01:16 PM
Laurel & Hardy
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: TheSandman on December 01, 2010, 10:01:44 PM
He should have dropped that useless get Dunne long before tonight. I think I'd just about have Davies back over that him and that is no reflection on Davies.

Collins has regressed.

I definitely have Cuellar in for fatso and maybe Clark dropping back from midfield.

If Nige is fit again that should work.

We have two great playmakers on our coaching staff BUT no defender and that might be an area we need to shape up.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: Risso on December 01, 2010, 10:04:13 PM
Pair of absolute liabilities, they should feel deeply ashamed of their inept displays.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: Ad@m on December 01, 2010, 10:06:46 PM
Dare I say it, give Davies another chance?
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: Shrek on December 01, 2010, 10:07:14 PM
Dunne must be sold.

He is absolutely shit. We can't have ago at Collins, his partner is shite.

Houllier has too see how shit he is.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: sfx412 on December 01, 2010, 10:10:26 PM
Did we lose to Blues or something ?

Cuellar has not been fit all season with various niggles, Clarke is in midfield with no alternative, what can Houllier do?

Even then Collins has been in and out with injuries and Dunne has an ongoing knee injury that would mean he'd be on the operating table if we had a replacement.

I don't rate either as good as Cuellar but I can't see what other options Houllier has.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: PaulWinch again on December 01, 2010, 10:10:34 PM
If a ball gets booted up in the air between they completely panic and lose their heads.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: gervilla on December 01, 2010, 10:11:24 PM
Dunne must be sold.

He is absolutely shit. We can't have ago at Collins, his partner is shite.

Houllier has too see how shit he is.

Well if he cant see how obviously overweight and shit he has been this season there is something seriously wrong.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: Ger Regan on December 01, 2010, 10:13:33 PM
They defence has been a worry since the turn of the year for me, not just since the start of the season. We'll need replacements, sharpish.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: darren woolley on December 01, 2010, 10:13:52 PM
Dunne as to be dropped and Cuellar must replace him and put Clark in to replace Collins that would hopefully shore up the defence.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: itbrvilla on December 01, 2010, 10:14:43 PM
Pair of absolute liabilities, they should feel deeply ashamed of their inept displays.
Bet the fuckers don't care.  Look at Dunne against Blackburn laughing and joking at the final whistle.  He should be fucking ragging
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: KevinGage on December 01, 2010, 10:15:54 PM
Birch Collins. Feed Dunne to the facking pigs.

There's plenty to go around.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: Leighton on December 01, 2010, 10:18:11 PM
Clumbersome dozy fuckers. Both of them!
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: adamski villa on December 01, 2010, 10:21:34 PM
Davies and King Carlos for CB, put both Collins and Dunnn in the stiffs
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: vilan461 on December 01, 2010, 10:27:24 PM
Pair of absolute liabilities, they should feel deeply ashamed of their inept displays.

M
 Could,nt agree more, between these 2 clowns they gave the penalty away--how many balls did Dunne pass to a blue shirt,?--both need dropping ASAP they play like sloaths, put Carlos in and get Davies back if Clark is still needed in midfield,--changes must be made,
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: Risso on December 01, 2010, 10:34:41 PM
3 clean sheets all season, and 12 goals conceded in the last 5 games.  Rubbish.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 01, 2010, 10:35:42 PM
Dunne must be sold.

He is absolutely shit. We can't have ago at Collins, his partner is shite.

Houllier has too see how shit he is.

Well if he cant see how obviously overweight and shit he has been this season there is something seriously wrong.

I mentioned this on the PMT.

What kind of calorific intake is required to undergo PL level training day to day and STILL be overweight?
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: Ad@m on December 01, 2010, 10:36:57 PM
Its de-rigeur to slate MON on here but its blindingly obvious to me that he was getting those two playing at the absolute peak of what they were capable of.

Without MON to manage them they look like Championship players.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: eric woolban woolban on December 01, 2010, 10:38:08 PM
While the centre-backs have been very poor these last few games, the rest of the defence hasn't been very good either.

I have no confidence in Friedel at the moment when a long ball is hit into our box. He seems so hesistant.

And don't get me started on Warnock.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: Phil from the upper holte on December 01, 2010, 10:46:26 PM
Collins is the better of the two but Dunne is just shocking
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: andym on December 01, 2010, 10:57:02 PM
without experienced centre mids in there like stan and nrc to protect them, the defence are being shown for what they really are: strong in the air and tackle but slow, clumsey, error prone and technically pathetic. they cant even control the ball or pass it 10 yards most of the time.

weve had 10 league games under houllier and the first five we had at least one of petrov or nrc in midfield- we let in 4 goals (one of which was a ridiculous dunne og). the five games since where weve had to play the youngster weve let in 11.

they dont seem to be leaders or able to organise the back line which is worrying considering they late 20's and early 30's.  they shouldn't need experience infront of them to be good, its them who should be setting the example to the youngsters.

i also think having carlos at RB last year papered over the cracks somewhat for dunne and collins. they did play well, but a lot of time carlos would be there with a great last ditch tackle or cleaing it off the line when one of them had fucked up.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: glasses on December 01, 2010, 10:58:06 PM
Whilst I dont blame Houllier for our current run

Buck stops with him for me I'm afraid. He will take the plaudits when we play well and are successful, he has to take the flak when its not so good. He trains with the players daily, and picks the team. The defence have been poor, but he chooses who plays, and also instructs them to play his way. He has had plenty of time to get some results on the board.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: ian c. on December 01, 2010, 11:03:47 PM
without experienced centre mids in there like stan and nrc to protect them, the defence are being shown for what they really are: strong in the air and tackle but slow, clumsey, error prone and technically pathetic. they cant even control the ball or pass it 10 yards most of the time.

Good point. 

I get the feeling that the midfield is often too far from the defence at the moment. I would certainly have Cuellar in for Dunne next time round.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: richard moore on December 01, 2010, 11:05:17 PM
Its de-rigeur to slate MON on here but its blindingly obvious to me that he was getting those two playing at the absolute peak of what they were capable of.

Without MON to manage them they look like Championship players.

I don't think they are quite that bad Adam, but nor were they ever so good either. We probably over-rated them then and are now denigrating them too much maybe. Seems to be what happens with so many players these days...
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: BannedUserIAT on December 01, 2010, 11:09:55 PM
I think Collins is still a quality defender but he, like the rest of us, has lost complete faith in his partner. If you have to take one eye off your own game to babysit some fat-fuck, then you'll not be at the top of your game.
Alongside Cueller (who must now surely to God be a shoe-in for the next game), he'll be back to his best.

Dunne....fuck right off. Costing us a goal every game is one thing. Costing us a League Cup exit at the hands of Small Heath is unforgiveable. Lose 10kg's of fat, put on a few kg's of brains and concentrate a bit in training when the coaches are covering things like: tackling, heading, keeping goal-side of the attacker, running, communicating with your goalkeeper and passing. Every other part of your game is A-OK.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: Can Gana Be Bettered!?!? on December 01, 2010, 11:12:24 PM
It'd be nice, when everyone is fully fit, to see Cuellar and Clark have a go together.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: ozzjim on December 01, 2010, 11:16:00 PM
All 4 are not up to it, and Big Brad is gone IMO. All 5 need replacing. Cuellar and Clark may do it in the cente. Wheater for a million in Jan is worth a punt too and Davies should be brought back in.

Warnock should be sold while we could get 6-7 million. Luke Young is proving MON right about him.

NAughton is doing nothing at Spurs get him in. Get Gibbs on loand from Arse to show Warnock how to play. Do anything in Jan to make us look less clown like.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: brontebilly on December 01, 2010, 11:18:25 PM
without experienced centre mids in there like stan and nrc to protect them, the defence are being shown for what they really are: strong in the air and tackle but slow, clumsey, error prone and technically pathetic. they cant even control the ball or pass it 10 yards most of the time.

weve had 10 league games under houllier and the first five we had at least one of petrov or nrc in midfield- we let in 4 goals (one of which was a ridiculous dunne og). the five games since where weve had to play the youngster weve let in 11.
they dont seem to be leaders or able to organise the back line which is worrying considering they late 20's and early 30's.  they shouldn't need experience infront of them to be good, its them who should be setting the example to the youngsters.

i also think having carlos at RB last year papered over the cracks somewhat for
dunne and collins. they did play well, but a lot of time carlos would be there with a great last ditch tackle or cleaing it off the line when one of them had fucked up.


Nail on head. Both of them looked solid prior to Reo Coker's injury. I don't think either of them are fully fit and both of them but Dunne in particular obviously took the piss in pre season.

Habib Beye would offer better defensive stability than Luke Young especially in the  air. Cuellar deserves a chance now also but not with Clark.
At least we have options.

Regardless of injuries, the only victories Houllier has managed are Burnley, Wolves and Blackpool. Very worrying, confidence has disappeared and the team looks brittle. I'd bring Beye, Cuellar and Reo Coker back into the starting line up. This ain't the time for our younger players.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: TheSandman on December 01, 2010, 11:21:50 PM
But our younger players aren't the ones letting us down. It's Dunne, Carew, Collins, Warnock, Luke Young and Friedel.

They are actually our older players.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 01, 2010, 11:23:15 PM
But our younger players aren't the ones letting us down. It's Dunne, Carew, Collins, Warnock, Luke Young and Friedel.

They are actually our older players.

Absolutely. And that's the disappointing thing.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: KevinGage on December 01, 2010, 11:25:52 PM
Not nail on head at all.

Dunne's penchant for the fcuk up was in full effect long before Petrov and NRC became unavailable through injury.

Versus Newcastle, Stoke, Tottenham and Sunderland goals were scored as a direct result of a Dunne error and v Bolton at home he was pulled off at half time after a 'mare of a first half.

Though what looked bad that afternoon looks quite normal now.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: Ian. on December 01, 2010, 11:29:13 PM
Houllier has no choice but to play them. What is driving me nuts is with all these talented youngsters coming into the team its the experienced players such as our back 4 which are letting us down. All these late goals either at the end of first or second half is a massive lack of professionalism and concentration.
I've not been one for having a go at MON but 3 of his last few signings are playing bloody terrible, Dunne, Collins and Warnock need to sort their act out.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: bertlambshank on December 01, 2010, 11:31:45 PM
He should have dropped that useless get Dunne long before tonight. I think I'd just about have Davies back over that him and that is no reflection on Davies.

Collins has regressed.

I definitely have Cuellar in for fatso and maybe Clark dropping back from midfield.

If Nige is fit again that should work.

We have two great playmakers on our coaching staff BUT no defender and that might be an area we need to shape up.
Time to ask Laurson if he want's a job.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: Billy Walker on December 01, 2010, 11:45:20 PM
If we're going to start rebuilding the defence - and we should - am I the only one who would love us to resign Cahill?
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: itbrvilla on December 01, 2010, 11:47:01 PM
If we're going to start rebuilding the defence - and we should - am I the only one who would love us to resign Cahill?
No,  it'll never be the same. It never is when a player returns to us.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: gerags on December 01, 2010, 11:47:22 PM
For whatever reason the defence have stopped communicating.
Harewood's goal for Blackpool is the perfect example - a line attempting to push out but not actually in sync.

Sod bringing Pires in, we need a quality defensive coach if there isn't one already one in GH's team..
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: Risso on December 01, 2010, 11:56:41 PM
If we're going to start rebuilding the defence - and we should - am I the only one who would love us to resign Cahill?
No,  it'll never be the same. It never is when a player returns to us.

He'll be off to a better team than Villa in the summer, Spurs probably.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: brontebilly on December 02, 2010, 12:06:26 AM
Not nail on head at all.

Dunne's penchant for the fcuk up was in full effect long before Petrov and NRC became unavailable through injury.

Versus Newcastle, Stoke, Tottenham and Sunderland goals were scored as a direct result of a Dunne error and v Bolton at home he was pulled off at half time after a 'mare of a first half.

Though what looked bad that afternoon looks quite normal now.


There was a run of games before Reo got injured in which we looked pretty solid I'd argue. Bham, Sunderland, Fulham was there another one? The problem then was going forward.

To be honest we have huge problems. We can't continue to play a midfield where only one player can tackle. We aren't scoring goals, lose the ball in dangerous positions, both full backs are struggling and a heap of players are finished. This could get worse before it gets better imo as the ability to dig out a result seems to have disappeared.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: Bent Neilsens Screamer on December 02, 2010, 12:14:39 AM
Warnock should be sold while we could get 6-7 million. Luke Young is proving MON right about him.


That would be daylight robbery on current form.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: villajk on December 02, 2010, 12:17:02 AM
I haven't read the whole of this thread but Dunne needs to be sent to Boot Camp.  He's about 2 stone overweight for a professional footballer and it shows in the way he plays.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: Bosco81 on December 02, 2010, 12:21:04 AM
Thought Warnock had a cracking game, Dunne has been poor all season, with Cuellar and Davies waiting in the wings he needs to pull his finger out.

Beye was a poor signing, I'd rather have Young in all day long.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: ROBBO on December 02, 2010, 12:36:55 AM
For most of last season we had Cuellar at right back and Milner always chasing back as an extra defender.
Didn't agree with Carlos at right back because his distribution was woeful but what he did give us was aerial superiority and although NRC has taken Milners role he is not of the same quality. I like Bannons skills but he cannot play as a midfielder he is just too small, Ash Young where has his skill disappeared to? he rarely beats his man nowdays and prefers to argue with officials. What we desperately need is a boss on the pitch
someone who frightens his teamates and the opposition, we lack the desperation to succeed. If we have to pay the earth to get someone to fill that role we have to do it because some of our players are just going through the motions.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: itbrvilla on December 02, 2010, 12:39:43 AM
Bannan isn't too small at all.  thats just rubbish.  ask Messi
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: Shrek on December 02, 2010, 08:27:48 AM
The last time we withstood pressure, had abit of file and grit, was against wolves and Everton.

Cueller played against wolves and I think Dunne was injured early against Everton I think.

We cannot carry Dunne anymore, as Houllier said we can't score 3 every game.

Yeah Collins has made a few mistakes but he has not support from Dunne.
We need Cueller with Collins ASAP.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: frank black on December 02, 2010, 08:28:35 AM
It's the Milner,  quellar thing that's missing. Quellar covered up any of Collins or dunes errors, Whilst Milner covered the right back void. Luke young isn't good enough at defending to do this. So if they get past our back two, it's curtains. I know this is controversial but put quellar in at right back and all will be fine. Although I know he's crap going forwards.



P.S no I am not mon. You can debate having a more attacking fullback till the cows come home. But we do not have the players to cover young 'bombing on' in our midfield at this time.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: Mazrim on December 02, 2010, 08:30:10 AM
I'm as strong as a horse and I doubt I could carry Dunne.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: richard moore on December 02, 2010, 08:53:22 AM
Whilst I don't agree in principle with having Cuellar at full-back due to his poor distribution, I'm not sure it is actually any worse than Luke Young's to be honest. Any notion that Young is some sort of attacking, passing full-back is totally lost on me. In fact, of all our defenders if you watch matches carefully, he is the most likely to hoof it aimlessly up the pitch. So we might as well put Cuellar in for his better defensive qualities. Luke Young isn't good enough for me and should be got rid of, though he is no means the most urgent candidate for binning - Carew, Ireland, Sidwell, Warnock and Dunne are a long way ahead in that queue...
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: Rip Van We Go Again on December 02, 2010, 09:27:28 AM
Collins has been sub-standard, but Dunne is now pathetic, if he can't lose the timber and improve his game, fuck him off.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: Mazrim on December 02, 2010, 09:30:00 AM
I'd persist with Ireland as the rewards could be worth it. He is potentially a top class player. Warnock will hopefully come through this bad spell and is a good player usually. The others, meh.
I think the majority of our senior players need to do one to be honest.

Use the youth as the core of the squad and sign selected top class players to bolster them.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: JUAN PABLO on December 02, 2010, 09:47:08 AM
I thought Warnock was better last night , as with Ireland ..   Dunne needs to be dropped Monday night for Cuellar..
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: Merv on December 02, 2010, 09:54:48 AM
Friedel, Luke Young and Dunne are the ones who need to be moved on, IMO. Friedel's given us three seasons (if he remains as No.1 for the rest of this campaign) of decent service, been pretty consistent, which, to be honest was about the most we could have asked for given his age when he signed him. I don't think he's done a lot wrong but he's 40 (or just about to turn 40) and it's obvious we need a long-term solution.

I like Luke Young but he's the wrong side of 30 and won't improve. We could keep him as back-up to a new RB but I doubt that will suit him, and I'd hope that Lichaj could push on and do that job.

Again, I like Dunne in a 'go on big man!' sentimental kind of way but he's costing us goals near enough every week, looks off the pace and, yes, a liability. He's also over 30.

Collins is still decent, I think, and I can't accept that Warnock won't improve and get back to a decent level. When fit, I'd pair Cuellar with Collins. Clark can revert to a CB option when we get some midfield players back. In the summer we move Dunne on and make a decision on Davies - he's either back as a genuine contender to start, or we sell him and sign a new CB.

Other priorities in Jan I know, but I'd like us to sign a back-up left-back if we can. New RB in the summer.

Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: ktvillan on December 02, 2010, 09:56:26 AM
Not nail on head at all.

Dunne's penchant for the fcuk up was in full effect long before Petrov and NRC became unavailable through injury.

Versus Newcastle, Stoke, Tottenham and Sunderland goals were scored as a direct result of a Dunne error and v Bolton at home he was pulled off at half time after a 'mare of a first half.

Though what looked bad that afternoon looks quite normal now.


There was a run of games before Reo got injured in which we looked pretty solid I'd argue. Bham, Sunderland, Fulham was there another one? The problem then was going forward.

To be honest we have huge problems. We can't continue to play a midfield where only one player can tackle. We aren't scoring goals, lose the ball in dangerous positions, both full backs are struggling and a heap of players are finished. This could get worse before it gets better imo as the ability to dig out a result seems to have disappeared.

Would that be the Sunderland game where Dunne put through his own goal whilst under no pressure whatsoever? I fully agree with Kevin Gage, Dunney was all over the place at Newcastle, lost VDV twice for Spurs goals, has been awful in many other games and is committing error after error.  He could have the Barcelona midfield in front of him but he'd still be fat, slow and error-prone.  The worst thing about him is he looks like he doesn't really care any more.

I think Collins is being a bit hard done by, he was poor last night but has also had some decent games this season.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: pablopicasso_10 on December 02, 2010, 10:26:03 AM
they were disgraceful... along with the inept warnock... have been all season...
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: Ger Regan on December 02, 2010, 10:30:23 AM
it's obvious we need a long-term solution.
GH has said so himself.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: Bad English on December 02, 2010, 10:47:22 AM
(http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/3285/dunne.png)

Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: a5tonv111a@yahoo.co.uk on December 02, 2010, 11:06:12 AM
Drop Dunne, he is making far to many costly mistakes. Replace him with Carlos and build the partnership with Collins. Davies?????????????????
 
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: KevinGage on December 02, 2010, 11:46:08 AM
Not nail on head at all.

Dunne's penchant for the fcuk up was in full effect long before Petrov and NRC became unavailable through injury.

Versus Newcastle, Stoke, Tottenham and Sunderland goals were scored as a direct result of a Dunne error and v Bolton at home he was pulled off at half time after a 'mare of a first half.

Though what looked bad that afternoon looks quite normal now.


There was a run of games before Reo got injured in which we looked pretty solid I'd argue. Bham, Sunderland, Fulham was there another one? The problem then was going forward.

To be honest we have huge problems. We can't continue to play a midfield where only one player can tackle. We aren't scoring goals, lose the ball in dangerous positions, both full backs are struggling and a heap of players are finished. This could get worse before it gets better imo as the ability to dig out a result seems to have disappeared.

I actually thought our midfield did OK last night.

I was as concerned as any when I seen the line up, but Hogg and Clark played with discipline -in so far as they didn't bomb forward and leave huge gaps. Hogg in particular impressed me. Didn't do anything spectacular with the ball but rarely (if ever) got caught in possession, kept the ball moving and dished out a few meaty tackles too. Clark was slightly less impressive, giving the ball away a few times but still good overall, certainly not a weak link.

The midfield held a decent line, Bannan being the only one who was really given licence to bomb forward -which is what he's more suited to, doing his best work in the oppositions half.

So the defence wasn't over exposed. For a long time they had very little to do as B-lose offered next to nothing going forward. But when they were needed they were found wanting. Again.

No midfield is so good that they can shield a poor defence for 90 minutes, so it would be unrealistic to expect ours to do so. Yet at present that's pretty much what they'd need to do to give us any chance of not conceding.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: KevinGage on December 02, 2010, 11:49:30 AM
Whilst I don't agree in principle with having Cuellar at full-back due to his poor distribution, I'm not sure it is actually any worse than Luke Young's to be honest. Any notion that Young is some sort of attacking, passing full-back is totally lost on me. In fact, of all our defenders if you watch matches carefully, he is the most likely to hoof it aimlessly up the pitch. So we might as well put Cuellar in for his better defensive qualities. Luke Young isn't good enough for me and should be got rid of, though he is no means the most urgent candidate for binning - Carew, Ireland, Sidwell, Warnock and Dunne are a long way ahead in that queue...

It's not so much that L.Young is great with the ball at his feet and can spray around inch perfect mid/long range passes. It''s more a case that Cuellar (for all his other many fine qualities) is pretty close to horrific with the ball at his feet, a disaster waiting to happen.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: UsualSuspect on December 02, 2010, 11:54:39 AM
Bannan isn't too small at all.  thats just rubbish.  ask Messi

I really rate Bannan but on Saturday he was out muscled off the ball twice by Arshavin who isn't exactly the incredible Hulk....
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: Shrek on December 02, 2010, 12:03:19 PM
Bannan isn't too small at all.  thats just rubbish.  ask Messi

I really rate Bannan but on Saturday he was out muscled off the ball twice by Arshavin who isn't exactly the incredible Hulk....

Arshavin has about 2 stone on Bannan, he is a real gem and will be quality in the next few years.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: Monty on December 02, 2010, 12:07:53 PM
Bannan isn't too small at all.  thats just rubbish.  ask Messi

I really rate Bannan but on Saturday he was out muscled off the ball twice by Arshavin who isn't exactly the incredible Hulk....

He wasn't muscled off it, he was eased off it in the same way he eased 6'1'' Carrick off it a couple of weeks back - using the low centre of gravity to stand your ground and positioning your body in a certain way which looks a lot like muscling off the ball, but actually has nothing to do with strength per se.

On Luke Young, I am always frustrated by: his lack of positional sense in always getting sucked to the ball; his propensity to dive in all the time, sometimes dangerously, always stupidly; his inability to pass the ball sensibly and square instead of his usual hoof-up-the-line to nobody; his similar faults with throw-ins, which is one of the most frustrating things about our team full-stop (constantly, literally throwing possession away is holding us back so much); his inability to cross; his lack of  accuracy in the air. When people on here have told me he's a good player I've always been sceptical, and he put in two good performances at the beginning of the season and since has not been anywhere near good enough.

As for the centre-halves, I suppose we don't really have a choice at the moment, but as soon as Cuellar comes back he has to be given a chance. Both Dunne and Collins have been making quite bizarre errors for far too long now, and along with the inadequacies of both full-backs and the lack of experience at defensive midfield, we're leaking goals like a BP oil refinery.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: glasses on December 02, 2010, 01:47:11 PM
I think its amazing how good players become in the views of fans when they are out of the team. Last season it was Luke Young, people on here were rejoicing when he was reinstated into the team this season, now are saying he isn't good enough. Cuellar all of a sudden is a defensive superhero because he isn't in the team, and people are even saying he should perhaps be considered at RB again. And Curtis Davies, who has been given a shocking time on here, people are now saying he should be recalled and trusted again! 
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: TheSandman on December 02, 2010, 02:15:19 PM
Yes but that might be because Dunne and Collins have been playing nothing like as well this season to the point that Davies might actually be less bad. Well less bad than Dunne (TBF I think I come in that category)

As for Luke Young most people called for him to come back based on his form in the previous season. When he first came in he did seem to be back to that form. And remember how bad Cuellar was on the ball. Look at how he played in the Carling Cup final and his gifting of a goal in the Burnley game. Personally I'd have him behind Young, Lichaj and Beye to play right back but in central defence there is less emphasis on using the ball well like that and if played with Clark that issue could be minimised though I'd still stick with Collins rather than move Clark.

I still see Warnock as a far more alarming problem that Young despite his improved game last night but that's just me.

It's not like these changes in peoples opinion have happened in a vacuum where Cuellar or Davies haven't been playing and that is the only factor. 
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: peter w on December 02, 2010, 02:20:15 PM
The problem with the defenders - especialy centre-halves is the amount of indecision when it comes to clearing their lines. It has been costing us goals. When you have a defence not being properly covered by the midfield then they tend to drop off and not commit to the ball too early as they could slip-up and let a player through.

Last night they were just plain poor but I think that has a lot to do with the indecision leading to a lack of confidence. I think that action needs to be taken to take one opr the other out of the firing line and I think that the fall-guy may be Collins although Dunne should be the one who is put on the bench.

The other thing to consider is that Dunee is a left-sided centre-half and is more comfortable using his left foot than Collins and Cuellar. That could also see Dunne saved.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: Merv on December 02, 2010, 02:25:42 PM
I think its amazing how good players become in the views of fans when they are out of the team.

There's a bit of that, but also the fact that players are starting week in, week out and playing badly. When fit (!) we do have options and they deserve a chance if the current starters are struggling. As for Carlos - well, I think the guy can feel genuinely perturbed that, for a large amount of his Villa career, he's been overlooked at centre-back. He's generally been pretty strong there when given the chance.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: UsualSuspect on December 02, 2010, 02:29:35 PM
wasnt muscled off but eased off??

FFS he was knocked off the ball twice, the same as he struggled physically against Burnley

Dont get me wrong he is a great prospect who i think will really flourish in a midfield 3 but a fact of life is that he will always struggle physically
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: Damo70 on December 02, 2010, 02:29:53 PM
I think Cuellar and Collins are not only our best two centre halves but also would compliment each other given their playing styles. I spent last season defending Dunne but I'm all out of excuses for him now. We can't forget Clark in that position either. As for Davies, I havn't heard anything about his form for Leicester but who knows. I remember Crouch coming back from a loan spell at Norwich with his form and confidence restored. Then that pillock O' Leary decided Carlton Cole was a better option.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: Rancid custard on December 02, 2010, 03:13:11 PM
Id definitely give Collins the armband for the short term, he cares, tries every game and always puts himself on the line, not consistent, but is dunne having the armband carte blanch to play every game?
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: nipper on December 02, 2010, 05:30:02 PM
I like Collins, think he gives it everything each game, whereas Dunne! Really losing patience with him now, he never really wanted to come here, looks well overweight, uninterested and his mistakes are now really totting up. If Cuellar's now fit again he's got to be given a go, please. My Leicester supporting mate(bless him) says Davies has been quality since he's been there, but then it is a lower division so i don't know. But please GH, drop Dunne and get him on a diet!
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: Shrek on December 02, 2010, 06:07:51 PM
One thing I've liked about Houllier so far is the fact he seems too see things that us fans see. So I'm praying he will act on his comments about the defence yesturday.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: The Left Side on December 02, 2010, 06:25:42 PM
Does anyone know how Davies has been playing at Leicester?
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: garyshawsknee on December 03, 2010, 10:10:25 AM
We all slated O'Neill for picking his favourites,and not dropping out of form players. So its time for GH to act and drop Dunne for Cuellar.

 If he plays im certain Liverpool will score from another defensive error of ours.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: PaulTheVillan on December 03, 2010, 10:14:08 AM
Our best defensive display this season was Wolves away.
Cuellar & Collins.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: peter w on December 03, 2010, 10:16:02 AM
We all slated O'Neill for picking his favourites,and not dropping out of form players. So its time for GH to act and drop Dunne for Cuellar.

 If he plays im certain Liverpool will score from another defensive error of ours.

its not about him beiong a favourite. Dropping some players isn't always the best course of action if it ultltimately takes them longer to get back to form. If Collins was playing brilliantly the decision would be easier, but he's not so its not as easy to drop the captain.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: garyshawsknee on December 03, 2010, 10:21:05 AM
But he looks out of shape and out of sorts,short of confidence.And maybe its effecting Collins,who's looked shakey recently.

Also when Cuellar played he was great against Wolves,deserves another start.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: KevinGage on December 03, 2010, 10:21:39 AM
One thing I've liked about Houllier so far is the fact he seems too see things that us fans see. So I'm praying he will act on his comments about the defence yesturday.

Sorry, I don't see that at all.

Most wanted Cuellar to stay in the side after his performance v Wolves. GH was even complimentary about him, comparing him to Jamie Carragher. As good somehow has to be compared to LFC, obv.

But when Dunne was available Cuellar was straight out.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: peter w on December 03, 2010, 10:36:19 AM
I agree that Cuellar should start and I think that was part of the reasoning behind MON had him at right-back. I'd be loathe to have him and Collins together though, as as good as they are defensively they are both poor in possession. With that in mind its not the worse call in the world to have Carlos at right-back and Young on the left. Kepp the 2 in the middle and drop Warnock - or stick him in midfield.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: SoccerHQ on December 03, 2010, 01:16:19 PM
I really don't know what's going on here.

To me, the centre half options we have at the club means it should be far and away the strongest area of our squad and it was last season and even at times this season if you watched the Everton home game when Collins and Dunney played the match as if their yearly wages were dependent on getting a clean sheet.

I have said in the past my prefered combo is Dunney and Carlos (I certainly think Carlos should be in our back 4 somewhere) but until recently Collins has been playing very well this season imo, just been dodgy for the last few games.

So regrettably the problem here is Dunney, looks like he's having one of his error-a-plenty period of games he'd have at City once in a while. If he's overweight then I don't understand why the new regieme sort it out? If he's still carrying that ankle injury, why don't we get it sorted as it's not like we don't have any other options in that area.

To me I reckon Houllier is thinking we'd miss his leadership at the back but then again we kept a clean sheet against Chelsea with Clark and Collins for most of the game and Carlos is a very capable centre half.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: SoccerHQ on December 03, 2010, 01:18:47 PM
Quote
without experienced centre mids in there like stan and nrc to protect them, the defence are being shown for what they really are: strong in the air and tackle but slow, clumsey, error prone and technically pathetic. they cant even control the ball or pass it 10 yards most of the time.

This aswell is a good point as we weren't conceding many goals not that long ago when we had at least one of NRC or Petrov in the side, bar a freak game up at Newcastle.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: Marlon's Hairy Wood on December 03, 2010, 02:09:41 PM
Dunnes the worst centre back i've ever seen ay Aston Villa

During the match on wednesday I was saying what i'd do to still have Knight around, which says it all

he doesn't even seem arsed that he makes mistake after mistake, its like hes unaware that its him who keeps f**king up

When he was awful early season, and then horrendous against Bolton (had 2 or 3 chances to clear before Davies' goal*, and should of gave a blatant penalty after getting caught for pace then putting a rash sliding tackle in whilst trying to recover poition, god knows how the ref didn't give that) i just assumed he'd pick it up as the season went on, but the first goal double mistake and letting jerome in just left me head in hands

i can't remember the last game he didn't do something shit, no way should have been so far away from Chamakh against Arsenal, get Cuellar in before its too late Houllier

can't remember if i'm on about Davies' goal, or a missed chance about 5 minutes before*
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: Ad@m on December 03, 2010, 02:17:51 PM
Dunnes the worst centre back i've ever seen ay Aston Villa

Come off it!!

Alpay?!  Zat Knight?!
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: Marlon's Hairy Wood on December 03, 2010, 02:24:21 PM
Dunnes the worst centre back i've ever seen ay Aston Villa

Come off it!!

Alpay?!  Zat Knight?!

As average as Zat Knight was, he was never consistantly making goal/near goal costing errors and mistakes for as long as Dunne has been.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: Lee on December 03, 2010, 02:37:31 PM
I said the same om Wednesday and have been all season. Someone mentions a goal a game they are costing us, I would say that was the very least.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: Lee on December 03, 2010, 02:38:33 PM
Dunnes the worst centre back i've ever seen ay Aston Villa

Come off it!!

Alpay?!  Zat Knight?!

As average as Zat Knight was, he was never consistantly making goal/near goal costing errors and mistakes for as long as Dunne has been.

I don't think that Dunney is the worst, but to back Knight up, he was far better when the Davies when they were paired together.
Title: Re: Our Centre Halves
Post by: Exeter 77 on December 03, 2010, 02:40:29 PM
I think Carlos Cuellar is our best centre back defensively but I'm not sure about playing him alongside Collins as both are right-sided whereas Cuellar and the left-footed Clark would provide a better balance.
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