Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: john e on October 09, 2010, 10:42:27 PM
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listning to a phone show last week re new stadiums, and the reasons given are,
increased capacity
better facilities
improved view
of which only the capacity one has any relevance,
the best view i had last year was down at Fratton Park behind the goals in the quater final, proper ground good atmosphere. yeah the toilets were piss poor [see what i did there] but so what, you can build some new ones for a fraction of the cost.
have a poll for away fans favourite ground, every club including us goes for Craven Cottage
the biggest disaster is Wembley, yes the new ground is nice and the toilets are great, but the atmosphere is crap, and it just doesnt feel as good as when everyone was in the same tier
Emirates, lovely, yes modern, but better than Highbury, no chance, more special big knob boxes though !
some chap was saying on the wireless last week that Goodison park is to old,
what a load of balls, Buckingham palace is old, Tower of London is old, but they not going to be knocking them down any time soon
if its just down to facilities, build a new toilet block then, its not to dificult,
if its down to capacity develop your own ground, like we have at Villa,
if you cant like Chelsea, you may have a problem, but to move is like moving out of the family home.
if Villa moved it would be a major blow to me, and theres not one stand thats the same as when i first went to VP, so in a way its not the same ground, but it still feels like it
i think all this new stadium stuff is a load of bollox, and groundsharing is fine for everone else, appart from us
i cant think of one new stadium where i enjoy watching football more than i did in there previous old ground,
appart from Middlesborough, where Ayresome Park was as dire as it comes to be fair,
and even if they had transported the local landfill site to play in, it would have been an improvement,
and of coarse you dont take your life in your own hands any more as you did at the Ayresome, which is probably why it just about crosses the line as an improvement
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You really think the toilets in the new Wembley are great?
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agree goodison is a proper ground and when you visit all these identikit stadiums that have no atmosphere also look at the new stadium followed by relegation patern.
i thought wembley and the emirates were souless
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Fulham is my favourite away trip as a whole - it would be better still if it was standing. If you happen to have seats at the front near to the corner flag you can't see all of the pitch clearly. I love the tradition of Fulham, the quality pubs in close proximity and the walk along the river to the ground. Their fans are superb too, nothing like their neighbours.
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Because they look beautiful on Sky and ESPN. Seducing more foreign markets to the allure of the best league in the world.
The best games, featuring the best players, in the best stadiums. And the mugs over here will pay for it with £50 tickets and massive subscription fees for the privilege of watching Wigan v Wolves on a Monday night. In the groundbreaking, areo-dynamic (?) DW Stadium.
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"facilities" doesn't just mean nicer toilets.
It means all the corporate stuff that brings in a big revenue stream. You mention Fratton Park, but that ground does not have a single executive box.
I agree that almost all new stadiums are soulless, though.
I just understand why they are built.
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"facilities" doesn't just mean nicer toilets.
It means all the corporate stuff that brings in a big revenue stream. You mention Fratton Park, but that ground does not have a single executive box.
I agree that almost all new stadiums are soulless, though.
I just understand why they are built.
you probably hit the nail on the head there Paulie, its mainly for the corporate customer,
but why would any 'normal' fan want to leave Upton Park, Goodison, Anfield, just so a few hob knobs can have there pre match salmon platter,
and sit in a stadium that resembles a giant B+Q from the outside, and on the inside has no history or relevance on anything that has gone before
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"facilities" doesn't just mean nicer toilets.
It means all the corporate stuff that brings in a big revenue stream. You mention Fratton Park, but that ground does not have a single executive box.
I agree that almost all new stadiums are soulless, though.
I just understand why they are built.
you probably hit the nail on the head there Paulie, its mainly for the corporate customer,
but why would any 'normal' fan want to leave Upton Park, Goodison, Anfield, just so a few hob knobs can have there pre match salmon platter,
and sit in a stadium that resembles a giant B+Q from the outside, and on the inside has no history or relevance on anything that has gone before
They wouldn't, but then again, the traditional, normal football going punter is right down the list of priorities nowadays.
It is more a business than a sport these days, it creeps up on us and then before you know it, places like this, where the brightest, most informed Villa fans come to discuss the game (*looks at other, crappier Villa forums*) are as much about discussing finances as they are events on the pitch.
Depressing buy unavoidable.
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Fulham is my favourite away trip as a whole - it would be better still if it was standing. If you happen to have seats at the front near to the corner flag you can't see all of the pitch clearly. I love the tradition of Fulham, the quality pubs in close proximity and the walk along the river to the ground. Their fans are superb too, nothing like their neighbours.
Agree with all you have written, but I have noticed only one pub near the stadium, the Golden Lion.
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It's all to do with money. Arsenel are making massive profits which would not be possible if they were at highbury.
In about 10 years when they have paid fir the stadium Arsenel will be in a very healthy and competitive position.
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Went to Cardiff's new ground on Friday and it's awful. If it had been anywhere near full and you hadn't been able to read the words on the seats, there was nothing to identify it from any of the other grounds that have popped up over the last fifteen years. Ninian Park was a dump so they had to do something, but they could at least put a bit more thought and effort into these new grounds.
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I agree entirely with the sentiments expressed here, having gone to nearly all the old grounds since I started to watch in 1966. I loved all those old grounds and the great memories they gave me.
Profits, corporate stuff, its become a product tailored more for TV audiences than the turnstile fan.
Much as with the British high street and other elements of towns and cities, we have boring identikit stadiums. Just as you can sit in a fast food restaurant in Newcastle or Plymouth and the product you consume will be identical, many elements of a football stadium experience will be the same.
However, please also keep in mind one other vital element of how our stadia changed. Not driven from within the game but by the authorities outside, safety. Just go and look at the youtube footage of Bradford or Hillsborough if you want to see how it can be judged change for the better.
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According to The News of the World, if the Yanks Mark II take over at Liverpool they will not be going ahead with a new stadium, but will instead redevelop Anfield.
Quote:
There are still practical problems to redeveloping Anfield, including housing at the back of the Main Stand.
But these are not thought to be insurmountable.
After the North Stand redevelopment our only option for further development would be the Witton Lane Stand. But this would only be possible if the Witton Lane and some of the housing on that side were removed. Does anybody here know how possible that is in terms of planning permission etc?
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I don't like new stadiums at all. They all look the same and don't seem to generate a good atmosphere. Give me a Villa Park, White Hart Lane, or Goodison Park over a Reebok, Emirates or JJB any day.
When I see Goodison or Villa Park on tv I know instantly what ground it is. When Arsenal are at home it could be any number of generic new stadia before my eyes.
I hope we continue to develop Villa Park rather than relocate.
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Most 'clubs' are businesses, aren't they?
'Clubs' speaks of intimacy whilst 'Businesses' speaks of profit (or loss!).
Football at the higher levels loses its soul. I think parks football and local club football has a greater attraction in terms of a sense of belonging.
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Of course there's a need for new stadiums, but VP just requires some attention, a new North Stand and the corners 'filled in' somehow to contain the atmosphere and 'job done' for a number of years of football in B6.
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After the North Stand redevelopment our only option for further development would be the Witton Lane Stand. But this would only be possible if the Witton Lane and some of the housing on that side were removed. Does anybody here know how possible that is in terms of planning permission etc?
If I remember correctly that would be a bit of a struggle. The main issue is the road rather than the houses. I think the original plan when the current Witton Lane stand was built was to divert the road and build the stand out further - at that time we knocked down the row of houses both sides of the road with this in mind.
Just like with the Trinity Road stand though the council wouldn't let us divert the road due to objections from local residents. That's how we ended up with the Trinity being on stilts, the Witton Lane stand being so narrow (have a look at it on Google Maps), and the little park area on the other side of Witton Lane where the houses used to be.
The more realistic option from an expansion point of view would be the corners.
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I would like to see a new North Stand and keep the orther's as they are, as Villa Park is a proper ground.
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What will the capacity be once the North Stand is developed?
In my opinion, if we could get the capacity up to 55k and improve the corporate facilities then that should be sufficient for villa. Hopefully, this would hopefully allow the club to drop prices a bit and get more fans in each week.
Out of interest what do people think the elasticity of demand (is that the correct term?) is for ticket. If the match ticket was dropped to an average of £20, would the average attendance increase sufficiently, say ~50,000, to justify the new north stand?
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What will the capacity be once the North Stand is developed?
In my opinion, if we could get the capacity up to 55k and improve the corporate facilities then that should be sufficient for villa. Hopefully, this would hopefully allow the club to drop prices a bit and get more fans in each week.
Out of interest what do people think the elasticity of demand (is that the correct term?) is for ticket. If the match ticket was dropped to an average of £20, would the average attendance increase sufficiently, say ~50,000, to justify the new north stand?
I `ll answer this one folks as it`s easy to do so: - No, unless we suddenly find another 15K "fans" from somewhere
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What will the capacity be once the North Stand is developed?
In my opinion, if we could get the capacity up to 55k and improve the corporate facilities then that should be sufficient for villa. Hopefully, this would hopefully allow the club to drop prices a bit and get more fans in each week.
Out of interest what do people think the elasticity of demand (is that the correct term?) is for ticket. If the match ticket was dropped to an average of £20, would the average attendance increase sufficiently, say ~50,000, to justify the new north stand?
I `ll answer this one folks as it`s easy to do so: - No, unless we suddenly find another 15K "fans" from somewhere
I disagree, as with other clubs, there are a thousands out there who have been priced out of being able to watch premier league football regularly.
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What will the capacity be once the North Stand is developed?
In my opinion, if we could get the capacity up to 55k and improve the corporate facilities then that should be sufficient for villa. Hopefully, this would hopefully allow the club to drop prices a bit and get more fans in each week.
Out of interest what do people think the elasticity of demand (is that the correct term?) is for ticket. If the match ticket was dropped to an average of £20, would the average attendance increase sufficiently, say ~50,000, to justify the new north stand?
I `ll answer this one folks as it`s easy to do so: - No, unless we suddenly find another 15K "fans" from somewhere
I disagree, as with other clubs, there are a thousands out there who have been priced out of being able to watch premier league football regularly.
Thats fine, however when have we ever regularly filled the ground even when admission prices were more in line with average wages etc? I think it a myth that we will fill the ground if the price is right - we have tried it recently and are continuing to do so (£10 and £5 tickets) - Continued success may bring in some extra "glory hunter" types but as soon as we revert to type they will leave in droves! As things are going a percentage of season ticket holders will not renew next season as the advantages of having said ticket are no longer that attractive - Do you believe that the club will expand the stadium by 8k and substantially reduce the prices of season tickets and match day tickets? I would dearly love to be proved wrong however I believe that we have a fan base who are willing to attend, at about 35- 37K
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On a sort of related topic I just came across this in the Observer's 10 crappiest grounds - guess where ...
'One of the most mean-spirited,unfriendly and scruffiest stadiums in the land.Not scruffy in a wholesome way,like Goodison Park for example,but in a an extremely tacky,cheap,classless way - a £2-for-a-Mars-bar way.Where do this mob get the brassnecked spivvery to charge visiting fans £52 (Manchester Utd) and £48 (Newcastle)for a view not dissimilar to watching the match through a letterbox? Standing is a necessity.Truly a cesspit of everything that is crass about twenty-first century football.'
'You can't enjoy a game there because you're overwhelmed with the sensation of being ripped off. Foul people.'
(The prices were 2004 I think!!!!)
More of the same as http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2004/oct/10/newsstory.sport2
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The New Wembley is boring and souless, and the corporate ring around the middle splitting the stands dilutes the atmosphere (although our fans v Chelsea must be up there as the best to visit). The Emirates has zero atmosphere or character, COMS has terrible acoustics and sounds like theres about 10 of you singing. One of the best 'new' stadiums is Stadium of light, it's a bit bland and 'factory looking' from the outside but inside it's impressive, a bit different and has a good atmosphere. The likes of Derby, Boro, Southampton, Leicester, Coventry, Swansea, Cardiff etc are all the same just with different couloured seats. Give me Villa Park, Goodison, Craven Cottage, White Hart Lane any day, not Anfield though, the most overrated ground in the world. It's a shithole, but not a nice shithole like Goodison, and the atmosphere is shocking despite what the media like to tell us.
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VP just requires some attention, a new North Stand and the corners 'filled in'
I remember reading an article in Heroes & Villains written by someone who was dead against filling in the corners at Villa Park.
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It would be interesting to see what kind of design would Archibald Leitch do these days.
is it possible to build old school stadium with modern seats and facilities.
So who are the top dog for stadium design these days ?
It would be interesting to see what kind of stadium would Randy Lerner pick for us ?
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If you think Highbury is better than the Emirates, your quite mad. Did you ever spend good money on a ticket for a seat on the side bit for away fans (just arond from the clock end? The back 8 rows you were looking at the players feet unless they were on the nearest touchline!
However, that said, it is sad that some of our old grounds have gone, even if they have basically have re-developed most of the site (e.g. like Wolves), there is something good to be still at you old home...
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VP just requires some attention, a new North Stand and the corners 'filled in'
I remember reading an article in Heroes & Villains written by someone who was dead against filling in the corners at Villa Park.
I wrote that.
Bollocks to the yawn-o-dromes. English football ground = four individual stands.
I want to see the M6, i want to be able to see the greenery of the park between the Holte and Trinity when we're on the telly.
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VP just requires some attention, a new North Stand and the corners 'filled in'
I remember reading an article in Heroes & Villains written by someone who was dead against filling in the corners at Villa Park.
I wrote that.
Bollocks to the yawn-o-dromes. English football ground = four individual stands.
I want to see the M6, i want to be able to see the greenery of the park between the Holte and Trinity when we're on the telly.
Agree 100%. The idea of filling in the corners is an awful one. What we need is a North Stand that is as big and imposing as the Holte. It doesnt need to wrap around at all.
And if we ever move to an out of town 'bowl' then my days as a ST holder are over.
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I think some of the new American stadiums are good models to look at in terms of keeping a stadium's individual character.
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If you think Highbury is better than the Emirates, your quite mad
I thought Highbury was far better than the Emirates. Still do.
I can't think of a new ground that is actually better than the old one it replaced.
Bigger, maybe, but not better
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Stadiums like The Emirates/Wembley etc may be more modern but they have no soul. The biggest thing they lack is atmosphere.
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I hope we don't expand Villa Park if we can't fill it.
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I wrote that.
Bollocks to the yawn-o-dromes. English football ground = four individual stands.
I want to see the M6, i want to be able to see the greenery of the park between the Holte and Trinity when we're on the telly.
For me, distinctiveness is the most important aspect - what makes your ground different from someone else's. To some extent it is true that the 'stand' culture is more likely to lead to distinctive football grounds, as stands get developed individually over time, meaning that no two grounds are the same. However it doesn't always happen like this, take for example Ewood Park or the DW Stadium. At Villa Park we have lost some of our distinctiveness in recent years as all four stands have been redeveloped over a relatively short period of time. Distinctiveness also comes from being of its place, with brownfield rather than greenfield sites, being most likely to have site specific factors (such as the proximity of buildings/ rivers etc.) that influence the nature of development.
I have said before on previous threads that the single most distinctive and important feature of Villa Park for me is the way in which the Trinity Rd cuts into the corner of the ground coming close to the pitch by the corner flag. This lead to an elegant oblique gable wall to the old Trinity Rd stand, and the distinctive asymmetrical image of the Holte End when seen from the opposite end of the ground. I would not want to see this lost entirely.
I think some of the new American stadiums are good models to look at in terms of keeping a stadium's individual character.
My feeling is that you can't just invent distinctiveness, and some of the new baseball stadia that are designed to look old, could be seen as superficial baseball theme parks i.e. devoted to a nostalgic idea of the experience of watching baseball. Obviously the shape of a baseball field, and the concentration of activity in one area leads to different kinds of stadia. However, this theme park idea seems to me to be wrapped-up in sport as a commodity for customers rather than fans. I certainly don't want some sugar-coated experience of watching football - I want it to feel real and relevant. This means being grounded in the present, but still being part of the Aston Villa continuum. The aspects of our club that we are often most proud of are its pioneering achievements, and its this pioneering spirit that I would like to see us continuing.
I suspect Arsenal fans feel more proud of the Emirates, than perhaps Southampton or Leicester fans do of their similarly recent new stadia, because it has set a new benchmark which other clubs are forced to strive for. There was probably some satisfaction for them seeing Tottenham's plans for WHL start to resemble the Emirates so closely. In fact its only the late inclusion of a single tier kop that distinguishes between them to most observers.
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To illustrate the point, here is Mainz's new ground. Four individual stands, but all identical and located in a field outside of town:
(http://www.stadionwelt.de/sw_stadien/fotos/stadionbau/deutschland/coface_arena/20100921/140.jpg)
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VP just requires some attention, a new North Stand and the corners 'filled in'
I remember reading an article in Heroes & Villains written by someone who was dead against filling in the corners at Villa Park.
I wrote that.
Bollocks to the yawn-o-dromes. English football ground = four individual stands.
I want to see the M6, i want to be able to see the greenery of the park between the Holte and Trinity when we're on the telly.
At first i thought why do you want to see the M6 or Aston Park, but then waving goodbye to the knuckledraggers skulking away after the fifth goal goes in certainly does have a sense of occasion about it that a Wembley bowl could never replicate.
Also i love watching lower division teams on the TV, FA cup 3rd round games and similar, and seeing fans up trees or standing on hills outside the stadium trying to catch a glimpse of the game for free, you never see that in these new stadiums.
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If you think Highbury is better than the Emirates, your quite mad
I thought Highbury was far better than the Emirates. Still do.
I can't think of a new ground that is actually better than the old one it replaced.
I was going on my experience at Highbury, I've been 5 times 3 of those in that crappy stand to basically not be able to see. Hundreds of people must have been the same.
Bigger, maybe, but not better
I was going on my experience at Highbury, I've been 5 times 3 of those in that crappy stand to basically not be able to see. Hundreds of people must have been the same. If you speak to Arsenal fans, how many would like to go back to Highbury? Not many I'm willing to bet.
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Also i love watching lower division teams on the TV, FA cup 3rd round games and similar, and seeing fans up trees or standing on hills outside the stadium trying to catch a glimpse of the game for free, you never see that in these new stadiums.
There's a fantastic photo in that Terry Weir book taken from the park in 1981 during our match against Ipswich of locked out fans sat down, watching the game through the gap between the Holte and Trinity.
Happy days.
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I was going on my experience at Highbury,
So was I. And my experience of the Emirates.
And, apart from a few Johnny Come lately Arsenal soccer fans, the majority of Arsenal fans I speak to would go back to Highbury tomorrow, finances permitting.
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The atmosphere would be ten times better if the corners of VP were filled in. The away fans can barely hear the Holte now because all the noise is lost out of the sides.
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Has any new stadium managed to create a really good atmosphere?
I recall when the Millennium Stadium was built in cardiff that it was designed to keep the noise inside the stadium but have no idea whether that was just spin from the design team or whether it actually worked.
Anyone been there?
As an aside, I think it is very difficult for a new stadium to be instantly distinctive and have character as the character often is not just the design and physical shape but more so the shared memories of nights like Tranmere and Inter Milan (in my time). No architect can design that...
Whoever asked, HOK Sports are a popular choice of architect for stadiums.
http://www.hok.com/
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New stadia such as Wembley, the Ricoh, etc are designed to host music concerts as well, so they are designed to acoustically "bounce" the noise away, otherwise the music bouncing around inside the stadium sounds awful if you are listening to music but great for football chants.
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The atmosphere would be ten times better if the corners of VP were filled in. The away fans can barely hear the Holte now because all the noise is lost out of the sides.
Agree 100%.
To get the best atmosphere possible at VP, the corners have to be filled in.
It's no wonder we have the 'boring' and 'Villa Villa Villa scream' reputations with the current VP.
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So if we filled the corners in the Holte End would suddenly come up with a whole catalogue of witty and erudite chants?
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So if we filled the corners in the Holte End would suddenly come up with a whole catalogue of witty and erudite chants?
Loads.
Erudite chants galore in fact.
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Great. Let's spend money we haven't got, on seats we don't need, so away supporters can hear songs about a team we aren't playing.
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Great. Let's spend money we haven't got, on seats we don't need, so away supporters can hear songs about a team we aren't playing.
Bit like a ham sandwich really !!
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HOK sports division became populous a few years back. I'm not sure that lack of noise at VP is due to open corners, I suspect that sloping roofs are the bigger culprit to the bad acoustics (reflecting sound back, oversight on architects part - too obsessed with sightlines and human traffic through concourses).
For all the rhetoric on here about old grounds, we've got a 30 year old stand that was past it's sell by date years ago, a monstrous carbunkle of a main stand and a two tiered "kop" that should never have been two tiers and a cramped Witton Lane stand due to space restrictions that blocks the view of the Lower Holte as the architects never bothered to join the corners properly.
Identikit - NO, architects who do their job properly - YES.
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HOK sports division became populous a few years back. I'm not sure that lack of noise at VP is due to open corners, I suspect that sloping roofs are the bigger culprit to the bad acoustics (reflecting sound back, oversight on architects part - too obsessed with sightlines and human traffic through concourses).
For all the rhetoric on here about old grounds, we've got a 30 year old stand that was past it's sell by date years ago, a monstrous carbunkle of a main stand and a two tiered "kop" that should never have been two tiers and a cramped Witton Lane stand due to space restrictions that blocks the view of the Lower Holte as the architects never bothered to join the corners properly.
Identikit - NO, architects who do their job properly - YES.
Architects working to an non £llis brief too next time round.
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we've got a 30 year old stand that was past it's sell by date years ago,
I love the North Stand. Years ahead of its time when it was built.
I first sat in the North Stand 33 years ago this very day. 3-0 against Norwich ( Little and Gray).
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'Non Ellis brief'!
The same Ellis that commissioned the construction of the new Holte End - the finest stand in the world?
Whilst none of us will ever forgive the passing of the Trinity, the new Holte and for that matter The Witton Lane are as 'traditional' as you'll find anywhere in Britain.
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Next time you look at the Holte, try to work out how much space there is in the corners for sound to get lost out of.
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Next time you look at the Holte, try to work out how much space there is in the corners for sound to get lost out of.
Where do you sit, Dave?
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If you think Highbury is better than the Emirates, your quite mad
I thought Highbury was far better than the Emirates. Still do.
I can't think of a new ground that is actually better than the old one it replaced.
Bigger, maybe, but not better
Have to agree, I really didn't see anything special about The Emirates when I was there. It was just a big stadium. Nothing against clubs that can fill them, great, but I too preferred Highbury.
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'Non Ellis brief'!
The same Ellis that commissioned the construction of the new Holte End - the finest stand in the world?
Whilst none of us will ever forgive the passing of the Trinity, the new Holte and for that matter The Witton Lane are as 'traditional' as you'll find anywhere in Britain.
The intelligent post above mine has it almost spot on.
The Holte should not have been divided into Upper and Lower.
The Witton Lane is a dreadful looking stand;it should have been joined with the Holte - traditional is not always best - moving forward with change not always a bad thing !
It is the same £llis, yes.
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Next time you look at the Holte, try to work out how much space there is in the corners for sound to get lost out of.
Where do you sit, Dave?
In the North Stand.
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The intelligent post above mine has it almost spot on.
The Holte should not have been divided into Upper and Lower.
The Witton Lane is a dreadful looking stand;it should have been joined with the Holte - traditional is not always best - moving forward with change not always a bad thing !
It is the same £llis, yes.
The Holte had to be two-tier to allow sightlines to fall within guidlines. To get that many seats in a single tier the back row would have been roughly level with Mac's bus stop. It's also generally agreed that having individual stands is what makes our ground so characteristic.
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So if we filled the corners in the Holte End would suddenly come up with a whole catalogue of witty and erudite chants?
Loads.
Erudite chants galore in fact.
Erudite chants m'lord
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So if we filled the corners in the Holte End would suddenly come up with a whole catalogue of witty and erudite chants?
Loads.
Erudite chants galore in fact.
Erudite chants m'lord
I've always said it, you just can't beat a good old erudite chant ;-)
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'Non Ellis brief'!
The same Ellis that commissioned the construction of the new Holte End - the finest stand in the world?
Whilst none of us will ever forgive the passing of the Trinity, the new Holte and for that matter The Witton Lane are as 'traditional' as you'll find anywhere in Britain.
The intelligent post above mine has it almost spot on.
The Holte should not have been divided into Upper and Lower.
The Witton Lane is a dreadful looking stand;it should have been joined with the Holte - traditional is not always best - moving forward with change not always a bad thing !
It is the same £llis, yes.
Oval plastic ground - no thanks. Four stands for me thank you very much.
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we've got a 30 year old stand that was past it's sell by date years ago,
I love the North Stand. Years ahead of its time when it was built.
I like it too and will be sad to see it go, as it's the last remaining link with the Villa Park I first knew. If they could tidy up the back of the stand which looks awful, i'd be quite happy for it to stay as it is.
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'Non Ellis brief'!
The same Ellis that commissioned the construction of the new Holte End - the finest stand in the world?
Whilst none of us will ever forgive the passing of the Trinity, the new Holte and for that matter The Witton Lane are as 'traditional' as you'll find anywhere in Britain.
The intelligent post above mine has it almost spot on.
The Holte should not have been divided into Upper and Lower.
The Witton Lane is a dreadful looking stand;it should have been joined with the Holte - traditional is not always best - moving forward with change not always a bad thing !
It is the same £llis, yes.
The Holte was terracing when the Witton was built, so I would imagine that made it difficult to join.