Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: ROBBO on September 27, 2010, 04:02:14 AM
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Watching the game against Wolves and reading posts after many were saying Petrov has to be dropped.
The problem is that we are bereft of anyone good enough to take his spot. If we had to play someone out of position as an experiment who would be the logical choice? Whatever we do if we continue with that midfield set up we will get flogged by the better sides.
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I think our centre midfield choices are so poor that we will have to tweak the formation to put three in there. Petrov isnt struggling, he is finished. He hasnt the legs to play centrally in a 442 anymore, Reo Coker isnt a footballer - he doesnt want the ball and cant use it. Sidwell was been shocking in a Villa shirt, gave away some stupid fouls when he came on but looked alright on the ball actually for a change. Ireland cant play centrally in a 442 either as he has no pace, presence or tactical discipline. Delph might do but it will be expecting a bit much from a young lad just back from a bad knee injury to be our main midfielder straight away. I think we will have to go into the market in January to buy one if not two central midfielders. The Switz player Gokhan Inler has impressed me the few times I have seen him and is gettable I would think - others to consider Momo Sissoko and Jeremy Toulalan. Mahamadou Diarra (on loan perhaps), Tymoschuk and Lewandowski all could be considered but are 30 plus.
Dropping Warnock will also need to be considered. He doesnt seem overly fit either. Heskey got a great winner yesterday but I dont think he is really an option to be played up top by himself as he hasnt got the pace to get in behind. Gabby will need to get the finger out which aint a bad thing either.
For Tottenham game I'd go with
Friedel
L Young, Cuellar, Collins, Warnock
--------Reo Coker, Sidwell, ----------
A Young, Ireland, Downing
--------------Heskey----------------
Spurs were awful at the weekend. Corluka is hopeless at centre half and if we can put pressure on Huddlestone they will hoof everything to Crouch.
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It should be NRC, His form has improved over the last few games.
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I thought NRC has been excellent recently - good in the tackle, getting forwards and back, playing simple passes well, even got into some decent goal-scoring positions yesterday.
I'd agree that Petrov and Sidwell are either not good enough or not young enough anymore, and agree that Ireland's best position is further forwards. It all depends on what tactical system the manager has us playing, but I do agree we need some new recruits in that area. Its such a pity for Delph with the extent and timing of his injury - he could have already racked up 20-or so appearances already, and the club would have a better idea about his potential.
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Very harsh on Reo Coker brontebilly. I thought he covered superbly for Petrov, was actually quite good on the ball and wanted it. And Ireland does have pace even if its not really his game.
Your starting line up against Tottenham also means dropping Albrighton which I dont think is particularly smart at the moment.
However, I agree on Petrov. He needs replacing and soon as he looks lost and is already breathing through his arse in September. I also agree on how you'd play Ireland (his best position) although it means moving Young to the wing again and as he links up well with Heskey in that role, again, do we want to be changing that right now?
Its a real pity Delph isnt fit because I'm sure he'd be playing in this team and loving it. He's the only real alternative we have for Petrov, short of trying Sidwell for a run to see if he can remember he was once a player.
Other alternatives involve using Bannan or Downing inside as part of a midfield three.
The long term outlook is very good because both Delph and Gary Gardner are going to be fantastic midfielders for us I think. But in January, Houllier is clearly going to have to buy one or two central midfielders and in particular a robust box to box or screening player. Somebody in the Defour, Diarra, Essien mould.
Some would say striker is the priority but I would say this is.
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Re Gary Gardener and Fabian Delph
I know that before their injuries they were both considered to be outstanding future stars, but having such a long lay-off in a crucial period of their developing years as players could have a long-term effect on their careers. By the time they are both back to full fitness will they have lost that potential star quality? A year out at those ages can be incredibly damaging, and they have missed a lot of football, training, learning with their peers etc. I'm not writing them off, I'm just worried, because I was hoping to see them as the future Villa midfield together.
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Might be worth putting Clark in as an anchorman next to Nigel. He's good with the ball. Davies may be another option, but he's a liability too often.
The prospect of playing Sidwell fills me with dread, but sadly, he's the only solid option, all the rest are too lightweight.
I felt sorry for Coker yesterday because he was isolated in CM, trying to stem the flow. Petrov just gave up, or at least his legs did.
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Is the problem with our midfield the fact the defence sit so deep and the wide men stay wide, leaving acres of space for a midfield 2, I thought NRC's legs went as well yesterday.
We might have to sacrifice the Ashley Young free role to get some help in for the midfield but we haven't got many options.
Stan Petrov can still be an asset to us if we get some more help around him, personally I thought he had a very good first half.
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It was Reo Coker that needed the help yesterday. I have nothing but respect for Stan and I wish him the best but if he keeps fading badly in games and being dragged all over the place he's a liability to us.
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Re Gary Gardener and Fabian Delph
I know that before their injuries they were both considered to be outstanding future stars, but having such a long lay-off in a crucial period of their developing years as players could have a long-term effect on their careers. By the time they are both back to full fitness will they have lost that potential star quality? A year out at those ages can be incredibly damaging, and they have missed a lot of football, training, learning with their peers etc. I'm not writing them off, I'm just worried, because I was hoping to see them as the future Villa midfield together.
It is a concern but there's every reason to think they'll be back to normal, especially with our facilities.
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I would like to see Ireland NRC together in the middle for a game.
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I am in the "he can't pass to save his life" camp usually, but I actually though NRC's passing was much improved yesterday.
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Could do with getting hold of a quality holding midfielder in January.
Easier said than done though.
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I would like to see Ireland NRC together in the middle for a game.
As would I!
I don't think we have a lack of talent for the midfield, but we do seem to be struggling to find the right blend. IMO, this is because we lack a good holding player, as if we had that the attacking options we have (Ireland, Ash, Albrighton) would be able to get forward with more freedom. Unfortunately, right now we're using Petrov there and he hasn't got the legs for it. NRC has, but isn't really good enough on the ball. A 3 would work, but that would mean one of Ash, Downing or Albrighton being dropped, who are all doing well right now.
As I said, we're struggling to find the right blend.
One issue with NRC is that when he playes with Petrov he goes a little further forward, either naturally or by instruction, which isn;t his best game. I want the NRC who played centrally with Barry in 07/08 and sat back to hold and protect the defence, which we won;t see while Petrov is in the side.
So, the unfortunate conculsion is that we've tried various combinations and none have completely worked, but we've yet to try one without Petrov and I think it's time!
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Could do with getting hold of a quality holding midfielder in January.
Easier said than done though.
If we do, I'd still like us to go for Witsel of Standard Liege.
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I am in the "he can't pass to save his life" camp usually, but I actually though NRC's passing was much improved yesterday.
I think he's been better this season. He's actually playing decent passes forward for Young to run onto, not just 5 yard passes that he doesn't seem to connect 100% with.
Nice to see NRC, Heskey & Luke Young getting back in the side and deserving to keep their place.
It's almost like having 3 new signings.
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It was Reo Coker that needed the help yesterday. I have nothing but respect for Stan and I wish him the best but if he keeps fading badly in games and being dragged all over the place he's a liability to us.
The problem was they went to 4-5-1 in the second half and we got pushed back, I don't see how that can be blamed on Petrov when we had 2 against 3 in there.
The balance isn't right in our midfield and that's a consequence of selling Milner and not replacing him. Those playing are having to make do for now and I think we'll see plenty more similar performances while the manager looks for a solution. It's not the fault of the individual players who are all trying to make the best of it but rather down to not having the right combination.
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I'm just glad GH took Petrov off when he tired. Something that MON would never have done.
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It's been apparent for more than a season that Petrov after 60 mins is dead on his feet. Rather than replacing him with Sidwell I would want to see the introduction of Delph and Gardner assuming that they are nearing the road to recovery. Even Bannan could fill the role better than a knackered Petrov.
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It's been apparent for more than a season that Petrov after 60 mins is dead on his feet. Rather than replacing him with Sidwell I would want to see the introduction of Delph and Gardner assuming that they are nearing the road to recovery. Even Bannan could fill the role better than a knackered Petrov.
I think Sidwell was the only choice. Ireland was warming up but I don't think he's 100% fit. Hamstring issues at a guess.
Delph would be perfect when fit.
Any news on him?
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There was a good player in Bremen's side over the weekend, like a tall NRC who could pass. I can't mind his name though. I sound like Storey-Moore.
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The rumours are Houllier is looking at a defensive midfielder at Real Madrid.
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The rumours are Houllier is looking at a defensive midfielder at Real Madrid.
Fernando Gago?
If it was him then Man City almost signed him for about £16m back in January.
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The rumours are Houllier is looking at a defensive midfielder at Real Madrid.
Rumours from where?
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If Houllier can get Heskey playing like a striker and NRC passing the ball to one of his own players, perhaps he can get Sidwell to play like he did at Reading. We could do with that as there are a lot of games between now and January.
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People were always going to jump on Petrov when he had a dip in form. The fact is that his job is hardly one where he gets all the plaudits even when he's playing well, so if he starts to not play as well he gets hammered even more. However, even when he's not playing well he still organises things really well in there (NRC palpably benefits from his presence) and, anyway, is way better than Sidwell. He'll be back up to form, I have no doubts about that, he's been through worse. He'll benefit from GH's style as time goes on and I think we'll see the best of him again.
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The rumours are Houllier is looking at a defensive midfielder at Real Madrid.
Rumours from where?
Aston Villa Boss Gerard Houllier To Launch Bid For Real Madrid Outcast Fernando Gago (http://www.goal.com/en/news/11/transfer-zone/2010/09/26/2137274/aston-villa-boss-gerard-houllier-to-launch-bid-for-real?)
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Cheers mate. I'm not sure that's the best source or if there's any truth to it but if there is we may as well get Mahmadou Diarra as well whilst we're there. Defensive midfield sorted.
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It was Reo Coker that needed the help yesterday. I have nothing but respect for Stan and I wish him the best but if he keeps fading badly in games and being dragged all over the place he's a liability to us.
As usual a Mon squad starts to fade from 50 mins on, Coker included. But he's so effective at breaking down opponents attacks and made fools of those who say he can't pass. He covered more ground than most, certainly all of those in midfield but when the pressure came on in the second half he disappeared along with the rest. He did come back with a vengeance when Houllier made his subs, mind and continued to do the sort of work most fans miss.
Sidwell apart from fresh legs offered little, but then Petrov had faded badly, from our first goal onwards, he kept hiding. Part of the problem for me was Albrighton started to run around like a headless chicken, once he'd been sussed, and that put more pressure on the midfield.
We do need more there than we have as first picks let alone bench warmers, but when managers sell off players who can defend, well, and replace them with players who don't what can you expect.
Here's hoping Houllier has answers and quick.
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Isn't the problem though that we give the ball away, generally, too cheaply and therefore have to work hard to get it back thus leading to the team tiring as the match progresses? Also, by playing two touchline hugging wingers we make the centre midfield area a Villa free zone far too often. The commentators yesterday pointed out the amount of space in central areas that we were giving up.
If GH and GM are concentrating on passing which seems an obvious thing to do then hopefully the higher degree of control that we should have in matches ought to prevent the fatigue that seems to afflict us.
Hopefully too, GM will dispense with the 2 winger formation against teams that could slaughter us through the middle. As much as I hate to say it, Man City did a superb job of stifling Chelsea on Saturday. Their defensive midfielders stuffing the centre stopped Chelsea from playing. I think that we should do the same even if it means playing Reo-Coker, maybe Petrov and Sidwell in there. If we concede the centre as we have done in the 2nd halves against Stoke, Bolton and Wolves then Chelsea'll take us to the cleaners.
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As much as I hate to say it, Man City did a superb job of stifling Chelsea on Saturday. Their defensive midfielders stuffing the centre stopped Chelsea from playing. I think that we should do the same even if it means playing Reo-Coker, maybe Petrov and Sidwell in there. If we concede the centre as we have done in the 2nd halves against Stoke, Bolton and Wolves then Chelsea'll take us to the cleaners.
I remember making a very similar argument before the home game against Chelsea last season, where I was convinced that we HAD to play 5 across the middle to combat them and any other formation would see us get stuffed.
We played 4-4-2 and beat them 2-1.
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Our midfield was being over run and out played by Wolves yesterday. We were second to the ball and incapable of passing to our own players for most of the game. If it wasnt for some great defending then it could have got very messy and embarrassing.
Looking at the bench for who could come on and change things was even more worrying...Sidwell being the only option is quite a worrying prospect! Unfortunately our weakened midfield is the down side of selling Milner, and we need urgent strengthening in this department.
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Our midfield was being over run and out played by Wolves yesterday.
For a portion of the second half. I'm all for improving this area but lets not pretend we were battered yesterday. We weren't.
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I thought Reo Coker was excellent yesterday.
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Well I'd say we were pretty much battered for most of the 2nd half...under pressure and couldnt get it out of our own half until he brought on Gabby. We couldnt pass to our own players or retain possession, and this was summed up by yet another hoof from Collins bypassing the midfield to an offside Heskey. Things improved slowly after bringing Gabby on, but we could have been punished by a more ruthless team. If we dont get this sorted then next week against Spurs could be a very painful watch.
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Young-Carlos-Dunne-Warnock
----------Collins-NRC
--Albrighton-----------Downing
--------------Young
--------------E-Mule
Alternatively I'd consider resting Albrighton, saving him as an impact player for late on to run at the tiring defence, play Young on the right and let Gabby sit dep and storm past the e-mule into the gaps...
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We were sloppy and under pressure. That's not being battered. After they scored from the fluke did they even have a clear chance? We had a few and scored from one.
The second half performance wasn't great, nobody would argue that.
But we showed character after they had a spell and got a deserved winner.
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I fear that playing Collins as a DCM would be a failed experiment, especially against the midfield Spurs have.
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Young-Carlos-Dunne-Warnock
----------Collins-NRC
--Albrighton-----------Downing
--------------Young
--------------E-Mule
Alternatively I'd consider resting Albrighton, saving him as an impact player for late on to run at the tiring defence, play Young on the right and let Gabby sit dep and storm past the e-mule into the gaps...
Funnily enough, I was considering how Collins would play as a defensive midfielder.
It would seem crazy but it might just work. Occasionally.
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not sure he has the pace to play that role tbh...
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Well I'd say we were pretty much battered for most of the 2nd half...under pressure and couldnt get it out of our own half until he brought on Gabby.
We were sloppy and under pressure. That's not being battered.
Fair enough...my definition of "battered" means "under pressure". We were solid in defence and soaked it up well, but we were sloppy and unable to retain possession because we were "under pressure".
Like I said, a better and more clinical team could have punished us, and I hope this is worked on ahead of Spurs this weekend.
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The rumours are Houllier is looking at a defensive midfielder at Real Madrid.
Rumours from where?
Aston Villa Boss Gerard Houllier To Launch Bid For Real Madrid Outcast Fernando Gago (http://www.goal.com/en/news/11/transfer-zone/2010/09/26/2137274/aston-villa-boss-gerard-houllier-to-launch-bid-for-real?)
I know its great to finally be linked with a sexily named Argentinian but if i am honest i have never heard of him or seen him play
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Young-Carlos-Dunne-Warnock
----------Collins-NRC
--Albrighton-----------Downing
--------------Young
--------------E-Mule
Alternatively I'd consider resting Albrighton, saving him as an impact player for late on to run at the tiring defence, play Young on the right and let Gabby sit dep and storm past the e-mule into the gaps...
Funnily enough, I was considering how Collins would play as a defensive midfielder.
It would seem crazy but it might just work. Occasionally.
I'm not a fan of the idea, but that aside I think it's be far too risky in a game like Spurs away. Trying it against Burnley in the cup would be a far better idea.
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I would like to see steven defour in there if he is over is injury he would be a very good player.
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Yeah but he's probably still got Fergie's love letter in his top pocket (or should that be tap pocket) *vomits*.
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Like I said, a better and more clinical team could have punished us, and I hope this is worked on ahead of Spurs this weekend.
I think most people would agree there is more improvement that needs to come yet. Whether Spurs will manage to be more clinical than Wolves is arguable.
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Every extra day in training with Sid and Gary Mac will be a bonus to the team,especially the midfield,so come Sat things might improve again. I just wish we could start to get the second goal when were on top,just like the Stoke game.
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Collins is a class centre back, why the hell move him?
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As much as I hate to say it, Man City did a superb job of stifling Chelsea on Saturday. Their defensive midfielders stuffing the centre stopped Chelsea from playing. I think that we should do the same even if it means playing Reo-Coker, maybe Petrov and Sidwell in there. If we concede the centre as we have done in the 2nd halves against Stoke, Bolton and Wolves then Chelsea'll take us to the cleaners.
I remember making a very similar argument before the home game against Chelsea last season, where I was convinced that we HAD to play 5 across the middle to combat them and any other formation would see us get stuffed.
We played 4-4-2 and beat them 2-1.
Mancini has bought players specifically to allow him to play like this, I'm not sure we have the right personnel to sit back against such a strong side as Chelsea and just soak it up.
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Reo-Coker's passing stats this season (from the Guardian chalkboards):
Wolves: 19 of 23 passes completed
Stoke: 30 of 32
Everton: 17 of 20
Newcastle: 8 of 8 (came on as 65th min sub)
West Ham: 2 of 2 (came on as 85th min sub)
Total: 76 of 85 (89%)
I'll post Petrov's as well.
Wolves: 23 of 23
Bolton: 24 of 26
Stoke: 37 of 39
Everton: 13 of 15
Newcastle: 28 of 30
West Ham: 36 of 37
Total: 161 of 170 (95%)
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Excellent stats, Uncle Fabio. Considering that Reo has played about two games and three quarters less than Petrov, the numbers are hardly bad in his favour. It's also impressive from Stan's point of view that, despite playing more games and passes, his percentage is still higher. However, much improvement there from NRC, which is great to see.
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I agree with the sentiments that we need to go with three in the centre.
My three would be NRC (cruncher), Petrov (spreader) and Ireland (buzzer). This would mean moving Young back on to the wing and I'd keep Albrighton on the right.
Downing dropping to then bench (for now) although he could come on in a number of positions.
I think it's got good balance and the players would complement each other well.
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I don't think that actually all that much of an improvement from NRC - the stats have always showed up the 'he can't pass' theory!
In truth he's very capable of winning it and playing a short and simple ball. It's when he tries to run forward with it and goes down blind alleys that the problems start!
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I don't think that actually all that much of an improvement from NRC - the stats have always showed up the 'he can't pass' theory!
89% would be very respectable for a defender, and if, as many do, we seem to be thinking of NRC as essentially a defender who plays in midfield then he's done a lot better than before.
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I thought before and from what ive seen recently NRC is a very good footballer. His box to box runs are very good. I believe his weakness, is in the opposition penalty area. I personally woyld pick him 1st every time, in the petrov role. NRC is very fit and very committed, before MON got hold of him wasent he in or around the england squad. Some players prospered with MON others fell by wayside. Luke young looks like the best right back in prem at moment, as another example.
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I agree with the sentiments that we need to go with three in the centre.
My three would be NRC (cruncher), Petrov (spreader) and Ireland (buzzer). This would mean moving Young back on to the wing and I'd keep Albrighton on the right.
Downing dropping to then bench (for now) although he could come on in a number of positions.
I think it's got good balance and the players would complement each other well.
Dropping out top scorer (in the league) doesn't seem that clever a move nor does moving Young after his performance yesterday. We do have a problem with how to accomodate Ireland but I think he'll just have to bide his time.
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Every extra day in training with Sid and Gary Mac will be a bonus to the team,especially the midfield,so come Sat things might improve again. I just wish we could start to get the second goal when were on top,just like the Stoke game.
Yeah its going to take a while, but hopefully we're on the right bath even though I'm sure we'll see a few disappointing performances results along the way. I think GH mentioned that we need to be more nasty, and killing teams off when we have them under pressure should be included in that...getting the 2nd goals against Stoke and Wolves would have put a very different perspective on those games.
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Downing dropping to then bench (for now) although he could come on in a number of positions.
I think there lies some of the O'Neill problems.
Downing is a left winger and IMO only a left winger.
He's gash when on the right.
This season he's scored 3 goals from being on the left wing and attacking the back post.
Didn't we have enough bullshit square pegs in round holes with Martin O'Fuckface?
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I don't think that actually all that much of an improvement from NRC - the stats have always showed up the 'he can't pass' theory!
89% would be very respectable for a defender, and if, as many do, we seem to be thinking of NRC as essentially a defender who plays in midfield then he's done a lot better than before.
What I was saying was that, from memory, his pass completion percentage has always been around that for us, especially his first season where he had a good run in the side and was first choice.
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I agree with the sentiments that we need to go with three in the centre.
My three would be NRC (cruncher), Petrov (spreader) and Ireland (buzzer). This would mean moving Young back on to the wing and I'd keep Albrighton on the right.
Downing dropping to then bench (for now) although he could come on in a number of positions.
I think it's got good balance and the players would complement each other well.
Dropping out top scorer (in the league) doesn't seem that clever a move nor does moving Young after his performance yesterday. We do have a problem with how to accomodate Ireland but I think he'll just have to bide his time.
I would start NRC and Ireland. Surely has to be worth a try.
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I don't think that actually all that much of an improvement from NRC - the stats have always showed up the 'he can't pass' theory!
In truth he's very capable of winning it and playing a short and simple ball. It's when he tries to run forward with it and goes down blind alleys that the problems start!
I reckon the 89% are all about 5-10 yard passes and the other 11% everything else.
My problem with him has always been is that he thinks he's a different player to the one we see and so has lacked the sense to stick to what he is good at.
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So,
Albrighton - NRC - Ireland - Downing
Worth a try IMO!
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I don't think that actually all that much of an improvement from NRC - the stats have always showed up the 'he can't pass' theory!
In truth he's very capable of winning it and playing a short and simple ball. It's when he tries to run forward with it and goes down blind alleys that the problems start!
I reckon the 89% are all about 5-10 yard passes and the other 11% everything else.
My problem with him has always been is that he thinks he's a different player to the one we see and so has lacked the sense to stick to what he is good at.
Out of interest........How do you know that he thinks he's a different player to the one we see?
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I don't think that actually all that much of an improvement from NRC - the stats have always showed up the 'he can't pass' theory!
In truth he's very capable of winning it and playing a short and simple ball. It's when he tries to run forward with it and goes down blind alleys that the problems start!
I reckon the 89% are all about 5-10 yard passes and the other 11% everything else.
My problem with him has always been is that he thinks he's a different player to the one we see and so has lacked the sense to stick to what he is good at.
Martin converted him to a defensive midfielder from the player who bombed forward at West Ham. But since then Petrov has been in that role, so we've seen him not playing to his strengths. Hence the idea that dropping Petrov, which seems to be gaining support, would allow NRC to play in his best position and get Ireland in the team.
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Out of interest........How do you know that he thinks he's a different player to the one we see?
Not going to go searching for quotes but I could swear I saw an interview with him from a few years ago where he was saying how he saw himself as an attacking midfielder
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I don't think that actually all that much of an improvement from NRC - the stats have always showed up the 'he can't pass' theory!
In truth he's very capable of winning it and playing a short and simple ball. It's when he tries to run forward with it and goes down blind alleys that the problems start!
I reckon the 89% are all about 5-10 yard passes and the other 11% everything else.
My problem with him has always been is that he thinks he's a different player to the one we see and so has lacked the sense to stick to what he is good at.
Out of interest........How do you know that he thinks he's a different player to the one we see?
From the way he plays and that he said in an inteview about 18 months ago that he was a box to box player.
I see his strength as breaking up the play and then giving the ball to a more creative team mate, he tries to be more than that and often ends up giving the ball to a more creative opposition player.
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So,
Albrighton - NRC - Ireland - Downing
Worth a try IMO!
We're too lightweight with the 3 "wingers" so I'd rather have Downing and Albrighton switching, and have them busting a gut whilst they are on the pitch. Same applies to Petrov and Sidwell, and the forwards. With Ireland on the pitch Ashley has to go out wide.
NRC - Petrov/Sidwell
Albrighton/Downing - Ireland - Young
Heskey/Gabby/Carew
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Dropping out top scorer (in the league) doesn't seem that clever a move nor does moving Young after his performance yesterday. We do have a problem with how to accomodate Ireland but I think he'll just have to bide his time.
[/quote]
Sorry, should have clarified that my team was what I think is our strongest formation/team, not specifically for the match against spurs. I think the likelihood of Downing being our top scorer after a decent number of games is pretty slim.
I still think it would work and crucially keeps Sidwell away from the XI whilst playing every player in a natural position.
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I don't think that actually all that much of an improvement from NRC - the stats have always showed up the 'he can't pass' theory!
In truth he's very capable of winning it and playing a short and simple ball. It's when he tries to run forward with it and goes down blind alleys that the problems start!
I reckon the 89% are all about 5-10 yard passes and the other 11% everything else.
My problem with him has always been is that he thinks he's a different player to the one we see and so has lacked the sense to stick to what he is good at.
Out of interest........How do you know that he thinks he's a different player to the one we see?
From the way he plays and that he said in an inteview about 18 months ago that he was a box to box player.
I see his strength as breaking up the play and then giving the ball to a more creative team mate, he tries to be more than that and often ends up giving the ball to a more creative opposition player.
Got a link to the interview?
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I don't think that actually all that much of an improvement from NRC - the stats have always showed up the 'he can't pass' theory!
In truth he's very capable of winning it and playing a short and simple ball. It's when he tries to run forward with it and goes down blind alleys that the problems start!
I reckon the 89% are all about 5-10 yard passes and the other 11% everything else.
My problem with him has always been is that he thinks he's a different player to the one we see and so has lacked the sense to stick to what he is good at.
Out of interest........How do you know that he thinks he's a different player to the one we see?
From the way he plays and that he said in an inteview about 18 months ago that he was a box to box player.
I see his strength as breaking up the play and then giving the ball to a more creative team mate, he tries to be more than that and often ends up giving the ball to a more creative opposition player.
Got a link to the interview?
No, as I say it was a while ago but Ger above remembers it too.
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With NRC his positional play is important,as I think we need him making his passes between our box and the half-way line,breaking up play,passing to the full backs,wingers,and to Ash if he's central,he linked with Ash a couple of times yesterday. He's not good enough to make intricate passes on the oppostions box,he had a good break yesterday and kind of balls it up,eventually that well be Ireland's job.
But for his engine,determanation,tackling,and he's a bit of a leader as well,he should be in the team,and hopefully gets a new contract if he continues in the team.
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Got a link to the interview?
Probably this one (http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/nigel-reocoker-im-23-still-single-no-wife-no-kids-im-living-in-birmingham-by-myself-i-get-very-down-very-low-on-confidence-who-do-i-turn-to-802385.html).
"Makelele with legs" is O'Neill's description of Reo-Coker but the player would like to use those pins more. "I look at myself as a box-to-box player," he said. "I am full of energy, I want to be let loose. To have the freedom to go where I want to go."
If he does though, he hears a bark from the touchline, sees a whirling dervish in a black tracksuit, and swiftly retreats. "I know I have more to offer Villa, but the manager picks the team and that's what he wants.
"It is a very disciplined role and you need a good structure. It suits a five-man midfield, the way Chelsea or Barcelona play it. We are playing it in a 4-4-2 which is very difficult. I think it is impossible. You are still going to give time on the ball to your opposing midfielder and if you do that international midfielders will hurt you."
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I don't think that actually all that much of an improvement from NRC - the stats have always showed up the 'he can't pass' theory!
In truth he's very capable of winning it and playing a short and simple ball. It's when he tries to run forward with it and goes down blind alleys that the problems start!
I reckon the 89% are all about 5-10 yard passes and the other 11% everything else.
My problem with him has always been is that he thinks he's a different player to the one we see and so has lacked the sense to stick to what he is good at.
Out of interest........How do you know that he thinks he's a different player to the one we see?
From the way he plays and that he said in an inteview about 18 months ago that he was a box to box player.
I see his strength as breaking up the play and then giving the ball to a more creative team mate, he tries to be more than that and often ends up giving the ball to a more creative opposition player.
I'd agree with that Chris, though I have never seen him as the out-and-out DM that many see him as, playing the Makelele roll and all that jazz. It seems to be a common leap nowadays, midfielder likes to tackle = play him deep or in a defensive role. Which is why some are advocating Delph in that role eventually. That I definitely don't see. I prefer to take the view that if even your flair players like Ash and Delph like to get stuck in, you're going to be hard to beat. No passengers in that kind of side.
Onto NRC: He likes a tackle, likes to get stuck in but doesn't have the discipline or composure to sit deep. Whilst his passing has been showing definite signs of improvement (and was probably never as bad as it was made out to be) he still has a tendency to get caught in possession or miss time a pass. It's just not his natural game. Further on up the field this isn't so bad, but as the last line before the defence this can be game changing.
I reckon we'd see the absolute best of him on the right side of a central three, with instructions to break up play and also cover the right winger (usually Albrighton now) or even RB if they're bombing forward.
NRC himself can also bomb forward at pace, which is rare for someone primarily in the side to break up play. He doesn't always make the most of it, but -with the protection of a central three and up to two other CM's covering- he should be encouraged to bomb forward more. Anyone running at pace at a backline can create gaps, as we seen yesterday. If Ash, Heskey or whoever understand that he's not the greatest with the ball at his feet and learn to provide better support when he takes off on these charges it can still be an effective weapon.
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Petrov / NRC / Ireland as a midfield three, with Young, Allbrighton and Heskey (or GA) ahead. 4-5-1 without the ball; 4-3-3 in possession.
End of.
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I'm looking forward to Delph being back and Sidwell leaving.
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I agree NRC isn't an out and out holding midfielder. His positional play and passing aren't good enough. I think in theory you can play him alongside a Petrov type player, but better to do so in a 4-2-3-1 so you maintain central attacking creativity.
The issue is that NRC, and on current from Petrov, aren't really good enough. Although we'd all like a new fwd, I think a really good centre midfielder is the priority. Flamini, Parker, Toulalan type player. Delph I see as the more up and down midfielder, taking NRC's place when he's ready
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As much as it would be great to spunk 20 mil on a new midfielder, lets not forget about Delph, Bananananaman and Gardner. There isn't much point in the investment in the youth policy unless we give them a chance.
Imagine if we'd wasted 10mil on McGeedy and then left Albrighton on the sidelines for another season.
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As much as it would be great to spunk 20 mil on a new midfielder, lets not forget about Delph, Bananananaman and Gardner. There isn't much point in the investment in the youth policy unless we give them a chance.
Imagine if we'd wasted 10mil on McGeedy and then left Albrighton on the sidelines for another season.
I agree in principle but even considering the players you mention there is a berth for another "senior" midfielder.
You wouldn't ideally want all of those players in the same midfield at the moment.
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Besides, I wouldn't mention Bannan for the deep midfield role. He is an attacking midfield player - anything else, certainly at this stage, would be a bit mad.
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Ireland will play at Spurs imo.
Both Stoke and Wolves were scraps that didn't suit his game but Spurs will be more technical so would expect him in there.
I would rest Albrighton as he fades in the second half, have him as an impact sub.
I would expect at Spurs it will be:
NRC Petrov Ireland
Downing Heskey Young
although personally I'd put Downing into a midfield three and have Ireland to the right of Heskey.
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I'd stick with what we played yesterday. Ash looks like he's growing into the second striker role and I don't think Ireland should be played in a deeper role where he would be at best down right ineffectual. Anything other than that leaves us too open.
Now, Stan is tiring and in poorer form but I think a lot of people are understating his contribution. Besides, if we were to drop him who would we replace him with? Our other midfield options are sub-standard to say the least (cf Sidwell and Osbourne) or unsuited to a deeper role (cf Ireland).
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I agree on both points, Sandman. We have to pick on form as far as we can, and Ireland has not shown that he deserves to be in the side ahead of the three attacking midfielders. As for Stan, his form has dipped but nobody in his position has shown that they deserve to be ahead of him.
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Ireland will play at Spurs imo.
Both Stoke and Wolves were scraps that didn't suit his game but Spurs will be more technical so would expect him in there.
I would rest Albrighton as he fades in the second half, have him as an impact sub.
I would expect at Spurs it will be:
NRC Petrov Ireland
Downing Heskey Young
although personally I'd put Downing into a midfield three and have Ireland to the right of Heskey.
Ireland should be first change if we bring off either Albrighton or Downing.
I'd be very surprised if he started v Tottenham.
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Isn't the problem though that we give the ball away, generally, too cheaply and therefore have to work hard to get it back thus leading to the team tiring as the match progresses? Also, by playing two touchline hugging wingers we make the centre midfield area a Villa free zone far too often. The commentators yesterday pointed out the amount of space in central areas that we were giving up.
If GH and GM are concentrating on passing which seems an obvious thing to do then hopefully the higher degree of control that we should have in matches ought to prevent the fatigue that seems to afflict us.
Hopefully too, GM will dispense with the 2 winger formation against teams that could slaughter us through the middle. As much as I hate to say it, Man City did a superb job of stifling Chelsea on Saturday. Their defensive midfielders stuffing the centre stopped Chelsea from playing. I think that we should do the same even if it means playing Reo-Coker, maybe Petrov and Sidwell in there. If we concede the centre as we have done in the 2nd halves against Stoke, Bolton and Wolves then Chelsea'll take us to the cleaners.
well done you have demonstrated a tactical awareness that is so often lacking on here, we get over run so blame petrov despite the fact that he was probably told to sit deep, and how many times did downing give the ball away yesterday and put our midfield under pressure and you are right that i think we are the only team that play with 2 touch line hugging wingers. I am concerned that Petrov legs dont seem to be able to last 90 minutes but that is what subs are for, i think the problem yesterday was that NRC took time to get his second wind for 15 minutes after half time and Downing Petrov and Albrighton went missing defensively, this stuff will get sorted out
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Ye agree with a bit of time available now think Mr H will work on a system for our mid-field. Would like to see Ireland in the mix. His technical game is superior to all our usual mid-fielders and with Ash and Heskey flying that type of pass is needed for them to work off ............
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Ireland cant and probably wont be kept out of it too much longer. He is potentially, after Young, our best player. Certainly from a creative, ball playing standpoint.
As a tactical alternative we could play Ashley Young and Ireland in behind a striker with three central midfielders behind them. A christmas tree if you like. But that means dropping our wingers (Downing and Albrighton). As I say, a tactical alternative for when we want to play narrower and tighter.
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I think Ireland might have to accept being Ashley's deputy for now, I can't think where he could fit in otherwise, we can't sacrifice Downing and Albrighton, they've done very well up to now.
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I'd still like to see us try a 4 of Albrighton, NRC, Ireland and Ash.
One issue I haven't seen mentioned is that playing Ash behind the striker negates having two of our front men on at the same time. Wouldn't now be a good time to try a Heskey & Gabby duo, now that the former is in form? Gabby is our best striker, so I think it's just as important to get him in the side as Ireland.
The player I think most of us would really like to drop is Downing, but he keeps scoring goals making that impossible right now.
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I think Ireland might have to accept being Ashley's deputy for now, I can't think where he could fit in otherwise, we can't sacrifice Downing and Albrighton, they've done very well up to now.
Yes, fair enough and I agree. But the good thing about getting a manager in who is willing to be tactically flexible and pick horses for courses is that we dont always line up the same way. Playing two wingers wont always be the best option. Sometimes playing narrower will be the better option. You still have Albrighton and Downing on the bench in order to change it at a moments notice. Besides, they cant play every game.
I suppose I'm also keen to get Ireland involved. If our new modus operandi is possession and passing football well then perhaps here's our finest exponent of it.
The only question mark is do we have the three central midfielders to exploit this formation.
You have Petrov and Reo Coker for certain and then Sidwell, maybe Bannan and maybe Collins as the other midfielder. It would be more effective when Delph is back and we have a chance to buy some players in January. In the meantime, what harm giving it a try now and then?
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I think it was under Gregory there was talk of having a 'big hitter' on the bench, which at that time was normally Collymore. The principal being that there was an attacking player you'd be more than happy to start with in the subs so as to give genuine options to tactically and attackingly effect a game when necessary. We've seen this in the last two games with Heskey and then Gabby coming on.
So maybe our thinking is flawed and it shouldn't be a case of trying to get Ash, Gabby and Ireland in the same side, but have one of them in reserve to bring on against tiring sides when needed? Add Carew to that mix aswell.
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If we're going to be playing one striker more often than not, I'd rather Fonz went out on loan. Not much point him hanging around if he's going to be behind Heskey, Gabby and Carew for one position.
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If we're going to be playing one striker more often than not, I'd rather Fonz went out on loan. Not much point him hanging around if he's going to be behind Heskey, Gabby and Carew for one position.
I'd agree.
We only need 3 strikers in the squad if we're playing 1 up front.
Nathan could do with a loan spell at somewhere like QPR or Norwich.
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I think it was under Gregory there was talk of having a 'big hitter' on the bench, which at that time was normally Collymore. The principal being that there was an attacking player you'd be more than happy to start with in the subs so as to give genuine options to tactically and attackingly effect a game when necessary. We've seen this in the last two games with Heskey and then Gabby coming on.
So maybe our thinking is flawed and it shouldn't be a case of trying to get Ash, Gabby and Ireland in the same side, but have one of them in reserve to bring on against tiring sides when needed? Add Carew to that mix aswell.
I like this way of thinking. Far to often we've bemoaned the fact there's nobody on the bench that could come on and change a game.
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How strange, but from what I've seen this season I think I'd rather the Delfouneso behind Heskey in the pecking order and ahead of Gabby & Carew.
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How strange, but from what I've seen this season I think I'd rather the Delfouneso behind Heskey in the pecking order and ahead of Gabby & Carew.
If you had but Heskey at the head of that pecking order this time last week you'd have been lambasted as a mad man.
A week truely is a long time in football!
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I think Fonz can play in one of the wide positions if needs be, and with Gabby and Carew lacking fitnes and form, I'd be reluctant to let Fonz go out just yet.
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For me, it's Carew who is surplus, in the current set-up.
If Heskey the battering ram doesn't do it in a game, why bring on someone similar? - a Gabby, Fonz and Heskey combination brings variety. And don't forget that there's Weimann to come back too.
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I think it was under Gregory there was talk of having a 'big hitter' on the bench, which at that time was normally Collymore. The principal being that there was an attacking player you'd be more than happy to start with in the subs so as to give genuine options to tactically and attackingly effect a game when necessary. We've seen this in the last two games with Heskey and then Gabby coming on.
This is just about having a squad, they'll all get games, but in this day and age they must realise they won't start everyone.
So maybe our thinking is flawed and it shouldn't be a case of trying to get Ash, Gabby and Ireland in the same side, but have one of them in reserve to bring on against tiring sides when needed? Add Carew to that mix aswell.
I like this way of thinking. Far to often we've bemoaned the fact there's nobody on the bench that could come on and change a game.
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The player I think most of us would really like to drop is Downing, but he keeps scoring goals making that impossible right now.
Damn him and his pesky goal scoring; we really don't wan that in our midfielders!!! ;)
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I think we could play
Friedel
Young Cuellar Collins Warnock
Albrighton Reo Coker Downing
Young Heskey Ireland
with 4-3-3 / 4-5-1 / 4-3-1-2 / 4-3-2-1 formation. This would give opposition managers nightmares :)
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...Don't you want to be swapping Albrighton, Downing, Young and Ireland round a bit there, SPA?
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I think we could play
Friedel
Young Cuellar Collins Warnock
Albrighton Reo Coker Downing
Young Heskey Ireland
with 4-3-3 / 4-5-1 / 4-3-1-2 / 4-3-2-1 formation. This would give opposition managers nightmares :)
im gonna have sleepless nites thinking theres somebody who'd happily play that midfield
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I maintain that the issues with Petrov is form. The way he plays his position means he deals with very fine margins, and if he's a touch out of form it can look like he's playing rubbish, even when he isn't really (though he has been below-standard for this season). However, he remains our most competent passer of the ball in deep midfield by far, something indispensible if we're serious about playing passing football. The way he spreads the play to Albrighton especially is reminiscent of Barry to Young a few years ago, and even out of form he very rarely gives the ball away. I have faith he'll recapture his form.
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with these 4 midfielders (all but Reo Coker) they can swap positions like Ajax and Total Football.