Wake me up when it's over

[algy]

I suspect given most people on this forum will have sung that if you are a city fan, surrender or you die, or encouraged everyone to fight fight whereever they may be, I’m not sure sanctimony about football chants is quite the strong argument it may appear.

Think you might lose the crowd here, Eliot. The difference between Maccabi Tel Aviv and Villa there is that the a notable proportion of the Maccabi Tel Aviv fans *actually* subscribe to those views. When you compare Owen Jones to Tommy Robinson - Owen Jones isn’t an actual criminal. They’re not equivalent, but your phrasing makes it sound like you’re downplaying the rather serious allegations (or evidence) against the MTA fans and Tommy Robinson.

I’m sure that’s not the case - you seem a reasonable enough person - but the wording of these things can make it sound that way

[markeeeebeeee2005]

I understand it was offered in generosity but word ‘reasonable’ is doing some heavy lifting there.

[markeeeebeeee2005]

Every time I visit Warsaw, I always visit the Umschlagplatz. This is a simple, humble monument to Jews taken there from the ghetto to their murder in Treblinka. And it is murder, not  “kill”. Totally different things.

I then go to Polinn, the museum of Jewish life in Poland.

To complete the tour of the museum you have to walk up and down a flight of stairs. On each step is the name of a road the Nazis forced children from an orphanage to walk along to the Umschlagplatz. They could have taken them in a truck, but no, they walked them through the streets for everyone to see.

I really dislike the Polish countryside. Every town, every village, I don’t know what misery was perpetrated on Jews.

I think Israel’s government, their leader, the IDF, the rotters amongst Maccabi’s supporters, are absolute ******.

So maybe I’m anti-Semitic.

Maybe this is a long-winded “I’m not racist, some of my best mates are black” outing of me.

I don’t know.

I think/know a lot of Jews would have problems with your hatred of the only entity that prevents Israel being destroyed.
There’s a very good book called ‘People love Dead Jews’, about the phenomenon of Auschwitz regulars who don’t seem too concerned about the possibility of a repeat were it not for the IDF.

IDF prevent genocide by committing genocide?

No. Because Eliot won’t accept a genocide has taken place. Will you Eliot?

Maybe somewhere. Not in Gaza though. British govt position. French govt. German govt. US govt. Etc etc. All paid off though obviously. Those Jews sure have a lot of money to pay so many politicians!

Are you being a little disingenuous here or did you really not know?

The ICJ doesn’t order emergency measures under the Genocide Convention unless there is a serious and plausible risk supported by evidence. The UN’s Commission of Inquiry is composed of international legal experts and has assessed that genocide is being committed in Gaza. The International Association of Genocide Scholars agrees the legal definition is being met, and Amnesty and Human Rights Watch have concluded that Israel is carrying out acts prohibited under the Genocide Convention. Governments often avoid recognising atrocities when they are politically involved, which is exactly why independent courts and expert bodies lead on genocide, not foreign ministers.

Looking back, in the case of Rwanda, the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda convicted Jean‑Paul Akayesu of genocide, the first time an international court ever convicted someone of genocide. For the massacre at Srebrenica, the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) and later the International Court of Justice (ICJ) formally ruled that the killings of more than 8,000 Bosniak men and boys in July 1995 constituted genocide, in a judgment delivered by the ICJ.

I wouldn’t conflate all Jews with the actions of the government of Israel or the IDF. I’m not sure why you are comfortable doing so.

[eliotpollak]

I suspect given most people on this forum will have sung that if you are a city fan, surrender or you die, or encouraged everyone to fight fight whereever they may be, I’m not sure sanctimony about football chants is quite the strong argument it may appear.

Think you might lose the crowd here, Eliot. The difference between Maccabi Tel Aviv and Villa there is that the a notable proportion of the Maccabi Tel Aviv fans *actually* subscribe to those views. When you compare Owen Jones to Tommy Robinson - Owen Jones isn’t an actual criminal. They’re not equivalent, but your phrasing makes it sound like you’re downplaying the rather serious allegations (or evidence) against the MTA fans and Tommy Robinson.

I’m sure that’s not the case - you seem a reasonable enough person - but the wording of these things can make it sound that way

Thank you for your gentle approach. I appreciate it.
Maybe they mean it, maybe it’s a song. I have no idea - it’s not my club. Just seems a bit rich given what Villa fans sing to start policing other clubs chants.
I’ve also been at games where songs about the RAF shooting down German bombers have been sung. So there’s no moral high ground here.

I really don’t know much about Tommy Robinson, but Owen Jones is just as bad in his hate and his views. In fact for Jewish people, he is far worse obviously. Again, it’s not an opinion. You can go and ask 1000 Jews if Owen Jones is a racist. They will all say yes.

[eliotpollak]

Every time I visit Warsaw, I always visit the Umschlagplatz. This is a simple, humble monument to Jews taken there from the ghetto to their murder in Treblinka. And it is murder, not  “kill”. Totally different things.

I then go to Polinn, the museum of Jewish life in Poland.

To complete the tour of the museum you have to walk up and down a flight of stairs. On each step is the name of a road the Nazis forced children from an orphanage to walk along to the Umschlagplatz. They could have taken them in a truck, but no, they walked them through the streets for everyone to see.

I really dislike the Polish countryside. Every town, every village, I don’t know what misery was perpetrated on Jews.

I think Israel’s government, their leader, the IDF, the rotters amongst Maccabi’s supporters, are absolute ******.

So maybe I’m anti-Semitic.

Maybe this is a long-winded “I’m not racist, some of my best mates are black” outing of me.

I don’t know.

I think/know a lot of Jews would have problems with your hatred of the only entity that prevents Israel being destroyed.
There’s a very good book called ‘People love Dead Jews’, about the phenomenon of Auschwitz regulars who don’t seem too concerned about the possibility of a repeat were it not for the IDF.

IDF prevent genocide by committing genocide?

No. Because Eliot won’t accept a genocide has taken place. Will you Eliot?

Maybe somewhere. Not in Gaza though. British govt position. French govt. German govt. US govt. Etc etc. All paid off though obviously. Those Jews sure have a lot of money to pay so many politicians!

Are you being a little disingenuous here or did you really not know?

The ICJ doesn’t order emergency measures under the Genocide Convention unless there is a serious and plausible risk supported by evidence. The UN’s Commission of Inquiry is composed of international legal experts and has assessed that genocide is being committed in Gaza. The International Association of Genocide Scholars agrees the legal definition is being met, and Amnesty and Human Rights Watch have concluded that Israel is carrying out acts prohibited under the Genocide Convention. Governments often avoid recognising atrocities when they are politically involved, which is exactly why independent courts and expert bodies lead on genocide, not foreign ministers.

I don’t know what this has got to do with Jewish Villans really. I disagree with you. I agree with the British government, and most of the civilised West. I’m sorry this angers you so much.
Thank Chat GPT for the above though.

[Percy McCarthy]

Every time I visit Warsaw, I always visit the Umschlagplatz. This is a simple, humble monument to Jews taken there from the ghetto to their murder in Treblinka. And it is murder, not  “kill”. Totally different things.

I then go to Polinn, the museum of Jewish life in Poland.

To complete the tour of the museum you have to walk up and down a flight of stairs. On each step is the name of a road the Nazis forced children from an orphanage to walk along to the Umschlagplatz. They could have taken them in a truck, but no, they walked them through the streets for everyone to see.

I really dislike the Polish countryside. Every town, every village, I don’t know what misery was perpetrated on Jews.

I think Israel’s government, their leader, the IDF, the rotters amongst Maccabi’s supporters, are absolute ******.

So maybe I’m anti-Semitic.

Maybe this is a long-winded “I’m not racist, some of my best mates are black” outing of me.

I don’t know.

I think/know a lot of Jews would have problems with your hatred of the only entity that prevents Israel being destroyed.
There’s a very good book called ‘People love Dead Jews’, about the phenomenon of Auschwitz regulars who don’t seem too concerned about the possibility of a repeat were it not for the IDF.

IDF prevent genocide by committing genocide?

No. Because Eliot won’t accept a genocide has taken place. Will you Eliot?

Maybe somewhere. Not in Gaza though. British govt position. French govt. German govt. US govt. Etc etc. All paid off though obviously. Those Jews sure have a lot of money to pay so many politicians!

Are you being a little disingenuous here or did you really not know?

The ICJ doesn’t order emergency measures under the Genocide Convention unless there is a serious and plausible risk supported by evidence. The UN’s Commission of Inquiry is composed of international legal experts and has assessed that genocide is being committed in Gaza. The International Association of Genocide Scholars agrees the legal definition is being met, and Amnesty and Human Rights Watch have concluded that Israel is carrying out acts prohibited under the Genocide Convention. Governments often avoid recognising atrocities when they are politically involved, which is exactly why independent courts and expert bodies lead on genocide, not foreign ministers.

In the case of Rwanda, the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda convicted Jean‑Paul Akayesu of genocide, the first time an international court ever convicted someone of genocide. For the massacre at Srebrenica, the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) and later the International Court of Justice (ICJ) formally ruled that the killings of more than 8,000 Bosniak men and boys in July 1995 constituted genocide, in a judgment delivered by the ICJ.

But… but… the governments who are supplying the weapons to carry out the genocide say it’s not. So that’s reliable.

[cdbearsfan]

Yeah, they seem reliable. Let's ignore the UN.

[markeeeebeeee2005]

It’s not about agreeing with me. The ICJ, the UN’s legal investigators, genocide scholars, Amnesty and Human Rights Watch all say the genocide case is real.

Your attempts at a sidestepping parallel argument don’t work. National Governments don’t call the shots on this as there interest is political.

If “never again” means anything, it has to apply to everyone.

We can talk about Villa if you like. Join me in a match thread some time.

[eliotpollak]

It’s not about agreeing with me. The ICJ, the UN’s legal investigators, genocide scholars, Amnesty and Human Rights Watch all say the genocide case is real.

Your attempts at a sidestepping parallel argument don’t work. National Governments don’t call the shots on this as there interest is political.

If “never again” means anything, it has to apply to everyone.

We can talk about Villa if you like. Join me in a match thread some time.

Yes. Please lecture me about the Holocaust, and what lessons I should draw from it. That’s really what I need. I take different lessons from Never Again.
During matches im watching with my kids or at games so dont really want to be on my phone posting my thoughts. I’ve no interest in being on a forum generally to be honest. It’s a bit 2002. And especially one where anti-semitism is allowed / encouraged to flourish.

I only came back on because our lawyers are highlighting all cases of defamation against our supporters club, and included Dave’s post in their package. I said ignore that, I’ve known these guys for 25 years, I’ll correct the record and they’ll be cool. Ah well

[markeeeebeeee2005]

Oh sh*t not the lawyers. Eek

Well if you or the Honorary President of Military Operations want to pop on any other time for a chat about Harvey Elliot’s hair do or why our injuries always seem to drag on so long, we’ll see you then. He can wear his boxfresh Villa top too.

Doesn’t have to be during a game or when you want to come on to refute UN, ICJ, Genocide Scholars etc genocide findings.

[Archbishop Herbert Cockthrottle]

"I really don’t know much about Tommy Robinson, but Owen Jones is just as bad in his hate and his views. In fact for Jewish people, he is far worse obviously. Again, it’s not an opinion. You can go and ask 1000 Jews if Owen Jones is a racist. They will all say yes."

I think if you asked 1000 Jews about Owen Jones, 75% would say "who?"
If you asked the same 1000 about TR they would say "what a ******".

[Somniloquism]

I can’t provide the report as it isn’t public. However, in parliament this week there was a debate where it and its contents were mentioned in a fairly substantial way. If you look at the debate and ctrl-f you should be able to see.
https://hansard.parliament.uk/Lords/2025-10-24/debates/D6C9D4FD-E241-4749-A228-A58E5D0EF0F1/UnauthorisedEntryToFootballMatchesBill#contribution-E9686BBB-C697-41B2-96CF-AA921C0C9B52

I suspect given most people on this forum will have sung that if you are a city fan, surrender or you die, or encouraged everyone to fight fight whereever they may be, I’m not sure sanctimony about football chants is quite the strong argument it may appear.

Ctrl F to find what exactly? Also in what role that you hold as a freelance writer means you get special dispensation to see the report. Surely you are, by definition, a member of the public.

Yep I do remember singing "They're the boys who will do us fine, you suppoert the blues ur a blue nose bastard and I'm going to rape all your women". I also remember cheering on the deaths of Bluenose kids as well. Thanks for reminding me.

[eliotpollak]

I can’t provide the report as it isn’t public. However, in parliament this week there was a debate where it and its contents were mentioned in a fairly substantial way. If you look at the debate and ctrl-f you should be able to see.
https://hansard.parliament.uk/Lords/2025-10-24/debates/D6C9D4FD-E241-4749-A228-A58E5D0EF0F1/UnauthorisedEntryToFootballMatchesBill#contribution-E9686BBB-C697-41B2-96CF-AA921C0C9B52

I suspect given most people on this forum will have sung that if you are a city fan, surrender or you die, or encouraged everyone to fight fight whereever they may be, I’m not sure sanctimony about football chants is quite the strong argument it may appear.

Ctrl F to find what exactly? Also in what role that you hold as a freelance writer means you get special dispensation to see the report. Surely you are, by definition, a member of the public.

Yep I do remember singing "They're the boys who will do us fine, you suppoert the blues ur a blue nose bastard and I'm going to rape all your women". I also remember cheering on the deaths of Bluenose kids as well. Thanks for reminding me.

It’s not a private report, it just hasn’t been made public. Lots of people have seen it.

Well you could either read the whole debate which would be a lengthy job, or look for references to Tel Aviv or Amsterdam, and read what the report says.

Yes all our songs would absolutely be endorsed by Emmeline Pankhurst. Birmingham full of fun, that’s a real feminist anthem. Also recall songs about telling sons to shoot City scum.

In short, grow up a bit. The world is complicated. You do not understand every inch of it perfectly.

[eliotpollak]

Oh sh*t not the lawyers. Eek

Well if you or the Honorary President of Military Operations want to pop on any other time for a chat about Harvey Elliot’s hair do or why our injuries always seem to drag on so long, we’ll see you then. He can wear his boxfresh Villa top too.

Doesn’t have to be during a game or when you want to come on to refute UN, ICJ, Genocide Scholars etc genocide findings.

Because neither of us would want to post on a forum that has no issue with people talking about Jews and blood money.
If I want to discuss Villa with someone, I can find better people.

[PeterWithesShin]

It's pointless trying to debate with him, he's so entrenched in his views that he will never even consider he could be wrong, it's always everyone else. And anyone that disagrees with him or think that he's a twat does so because they are an anti-semite. It strikes me as quite a sad and hate filled way to go through life.