Wake me up when it's over

[Sexual Ealing]

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxOWSi1bQnTi3HqKjjZZs5xhqMe6saIZ_a?si=B5IvXBA9hHjY-o7T

[eliotpollak]

I refer the poster to my previous statement.

That’s fine. But then maybe don’t lie about people, refuse to correct the record despite the presence of irrefutable evidence, and then complain they are ‘picking fights’ whatever that means.

[eliotpollak]

Every time I visit Warsaw, I always visit the Umschlagplatz. This is a simple, humble monument to Jews taken there from the ghetto to their murder in Treblinka. And it is murder, not  “kill”. Totally different things.

I then go to Polinn, the museum of Jewish life in Poland.

To complete the tour of the museum you have to walk up and down a flight of stairs. On each step is the name of a road the Nazis forced children from an orphanage to walk along to the Umschlagplatz. They could have taken them in a truck, but no, they walked them through the streets for everyone to see.

I really dislike the Polish countryside. Every town, every village, I don’t know what misery was perpetrated on Jews.

I think Israel’s government, their leader, the IDF, the rotters amongst Maccabi’s supporters, are absolute ******.

So maybe I’m anti-Semitic.

Maybe this is a long-winded “I’m not racist, some of my best mates are black” outing of me.

I don’t know.

I think/know a lot of Jews would have problems with your hatred of the only entity that prevents Israel being destroyed.
There’s a very good book called ‘People love Dead Jews’, about the phenomenon of Auschwitz regulars who don’t seem too concerned about the possibility of a repeat were it not for the IDF.

[markeeeebeeee2005]

The IDF have committed genocide together with the Israeli Government and complicity from the UK and US Governments.

It doesn’t really matter what your view is of somebody’s post about them. And this game is a distraction.

[cdbearsfan]

He's a genocide-denier, so not worth bringing that up.

[eliotpollak]

Mad how all the people of different beliefs and no belief have all come together at the same time and decided to hate Jews.

You really think this forum is full of antisemites, or have you ever considered that you might be wrong rather than everyone else?

A serious answer to that statement might be yes - has happened quite a few times in different places throughout history, but ok.

On the second point, I’ve never said it is, and never would. I’m just astonished how angry everyone is at the idea of a Jewish supporters group existing.

Where has anyone said they are?

This thread is now 8 pages, essentially flourishing once I made some corrections about the Jewish Villans to Dave’s original piece.
Have had loads of abuse and death threats on socials (not complaining - just giving examples at the rage.)
Have had Owen Jones RTing a lengthy tweet questioning our legitimacy. 

You came on here to put your side of the argument, as is your right. You were asked some questions. Some you answered, some you didn't. But - and this is the main point - before your arrival nobody had said a bad word on this thread about the Jewish supporters club. Nobody had mentioned you personally. Then you began hurling insults in all directions - mentally ill, anti-semitic, conspiracies and a load of stuff about me, which I hope readers have realised I treated with the contempt it deserved. Why you chose to go down that road I have no idea, but please don't return to play the victim. I don't dislike your supporters club, they don't anger me and I don't deny their right to existence. I would hope everyone else on here feels the same and I'm confident they do. You've been given a lot more leeway than many posters who have been banned for less than you, so don't abuse the privilege.

You know fully well you have been spoon feeding one of the main rabble-rousers on Twitter, who informed everyone his forensic investigation,
‘supports the conclusion that the group's leadership is strategically positioned to engage in geopolitical lobbying.’
Now if you can’t see the problem with that sentence referring to a Jewish group in particular, I can lend you a Key Stage 1 history book.

So dont play the victim. It’s an outrageous, bonkers thing to write.

Curious as to what this tweet is. Would you mind posting it? Not trying to bait anything here, genuinely just interested.

—

I think if people want to have a club that’s based on some commonality - religion, or nationality, or where they live, or whether they prefer ketchup or brown sauce - that’s ok. I’m happy for them that they can have that cos community is important.  I think when people murder innocent children, or sing songs about murdering children, or anything like that … that’s not on. I don’t think that’s a good thing at all and I’m not down with that in the slightest.

I think everyone should just be nice to eachother. I’ll admit it’s not the most detailed political philosophy, but I feel like that’s the broad direction to go in

Yes course
https://x.com/thedodgydriver/status/1980659456125071637?s=46&t=B_fbIKKvd-M42XsagirIAg  Quite a few tweets in a lengthy thread

[eliotpollak]

It you're from a minority group it doesn't mean that everything that goes against you is because you're from a minority group.

If you're a twat then you're a twat regardless of anything else.

If your nation, in response to an atrocity against it, becomes worse than the perpetrators, by becoming even more atrocious, behaving like they've done nothing wrong and engaging in whataboutery, they will be judged poorly by most other people.

If a football club's fans behave in that way, act like they have impunity, and show no remorse, then they forego their right to attend a match in another country, whose fans just want to watch a game of football, in a residential area where there is a lot of support for the victims of aforementioned state atrocity (UN defined genocide no less).

It's no surprise that this has come to pass.

When Stephen Yaxley Lennon is on your side you should know you're on the wrong side.

I'm pleased there's a Jewish Villa Supporters group, as I would be if there were a Punjabi one, a Christian one, a Norwegian one, an LGBTQ one z and a Yorkshire one. It shows our diversity, it shows  that sport should have no boundaries. The problems come when people try to use their grouping against others, to define themselves as better, worse or as victims.

‘My nation’ as you say is the UK. Same as yours.

‘The International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance (IHRA) definition of antisemitism includes the accusation that Jewish citizens are more loyal to Israel than to their own nations. This is a classic antisemitic trope, also called the "dual loyalty" charge, which falsely claims Jews have conflicting loyalties and are inherently disloyal to the countries they live in.’

But yes, you’re definitely the person to post about anti-semitism.

Im a big believer in freedom of speech and everyone’s right to say anything to anyone as long as it’s not inciting violence. But genuinely, have some humility - most of these posts show a woeful ignorance of anti-semitism, it’s causes, and its history. So maybe take an opportunity to learn something, or just keep quiet. Not everyone needs your hot take on a thousands year old hatred.

[cdbearsfan]

But genuinely, have some humility

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[eliotpollak]

I noticed an unwillingness to engage with posts that used the word genocide. Well you’ll love this one.

When a state is found by both the International Court of Justice (plausible genocide case) and the United Nations Commission of Inquiry (that genocide is actually being committed) to be responsible for the most serious crime in international law, people are understandably outraged. But of course the ICJ and UN are antisemitic, they must be!

The whole point of the Genocide Convention (1948) was to ensure “never again” applied to everyone, without exception. Yet Israel’s government has continued on this path, and the UK and US have carried on providing political and military support. That is why so many feel a moral duty to speak out. Either that or the 1948 Genocide Convention is antisemitic too.

This fixture risks acting as a distraction from those very real legal and humanitarian concerns. Sports washing in real time, and people won’t have it. In other cases involving apartheid or war crimes, teams have been suspended from international competition. Many believe the same standard should apply here.

Criticising the actions of a government accused of genocide is not antisemitism. Just as criticising Hamas for the killings on 7 October is not Islamophobia.

People are hot under the collar because civilians are being killed, starved and bombed. Don’t brush it aside as bigotry. It’s a very basic expectation that international law applies equally to all.

Also maybe don’t welcome people like Andrew Fox who openly cheerlead for the genocidal IDF on social media to honorary positions in your group?

Your first paragraph was v good. Shame about the rest.
I don’t think the UN are relevant here - the position of the British government is as we are here, and is clear. It’s unfortunate for you that it goes against your opinion. But they’re prob Zionist shills or something.

[eliotpollak]

I didn't know their was a Jewish Supporters Group. There's no reason why their shouldn't be one

What happened on October 7th was utterly dreadful and apparently, some things took place which dont bear reading about. Israel had to retaliate, it would have been unthinkable of them not to. Sadly, the response was totally over the top and  2 years on, food is still not getting into the people that need it and the same army denying people food shoot 12 year old children dead because they can't cope with a few rocks being thrown at them.

None of that makes me anti-semetic.

I didn’t say it did, nor would I or anyone else. Perfectly reasonable take; shared by many in Israel itself.

[eliotpollak]

I couldn't care less how many politicians are dripping with Israeli blood money. I see a people being exterminated to monied silence and for that alone I wanna see Villa embarrass this lot and wipe the floor with them, whether or not the these 'fans' are there to witness it.

Wow. Also not antisemitic I assume. Monied silence. Blood money. But yes - it’s me who should be banned from this forum.

[PeterWithesShin]

No one dislikes you because you're Jewish, they dislike you because you're a deeply unpleasant twat. Your comeback to anyone that points out what a massive twat you are is to call them antisemetic, no, we're simply antitwat.

[dave.woodhall]

It takes a special kind of person to come on here, abuse everyone who disagrees with them, tell me the sort of risible nonsense last seen on TBAR circa 2015 and then claim to be the victim.

[markeeeebeeee2005]

I noticed an unwillingness to engage with posts that used the word genocide. Well you’ll love this one.

When a state is found by both the International Court of Justice (plausible genocide case) and the United Nations Commission of Inquiry (that genocide is actually being committed) to be responsible for the most serious crime in international law, people are understandably outraged. But of course the ICJ and UN are antisemitic, they must be!

The whole point of the Genocide Convention (1948) was to ensure “never again” applied to everyone, without exception. Yet Israel’s government has continued on this path, and the UK and US have carried on providing political and military support. That is why so many feel a moral duty to speak out. Either that or the 1948 Genocide Convention is antisemitic too.

This fixture risks acting as a distraction from those very real legal and humanitarian concerns. Sports washing in real time, and people won’t have it. In other cases involving apartheid or war crimes, teams have been suspended from international competition. Many believe the same standard should apply here.

Criticising the actions of a government accused of genocide is not antisemitism. Just as criticising Hamas for the killings on 7 October is not Islamophobia.

People are hot under the collar because civilians are being killed, starved and bombed. Don’t brush it aside as bigotry. It’s a very basic expectation that international law applies equally to all.

Also maybe don’t welcome people like Andrew Fox who openly cheerlead for the genocidal IDF on social media to honorary positions in your group?

Your first paragraph was v good. Shame about the rest.
I don’t think the UN are relevant here - the position of the British government is as we are here, and is clear. It’s unfortunate for you that it goes against your opinion. But they’re prob Zionist shills or something.

The UN Commission of Inquiry, led by a former ICC judge, has formally found that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza. The International Association of Genocide Scholars has reached the same conclusion, and both Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have assessed that Israel is carrying out acts of genocide under the 1948 Convention. The ICJ has ruled there is a plausible case of genocide and has already imposed emergency measures.

When the most respected legal and human rights bodies in the world say genocide is happening, people will be outraged.

Bringing it back to the game. In other situations involving apartheid or mass atrocities, teams have been suspended from international sport. Israeli clubs should not be featuring in European competition while these findings stand. Brushing all of this aside because it is inconvenient to your narrative minimises the most heinous crime these institutions have identified. The match is helping to sports wash a government accused of the most serious crime in international law. Criticising that is not antisemetic (an accusation you throw around like confetti), it is a basic expectation that the rules apply equally to everyone.

[Percy McCarthy]

I couldn't care less how many politicians are dripping with Israeli blood money. I see a people being exterminated to monied silence and for that alone I wanna see Villa embarrass this lot and wipe the floor with them, whether or not the these 'fans' are there to witness it.

Wow. Also not antisemitic I assume. Monied silence. Blood money. But yes - it’s me who should be banned from this forum.

Do you not think that politicians are being paid to support Israel? Or do you think they just have a vivid imagination for free?