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Author Topic: Other Games - 2023/24  (Read 1047758 times)

Offline Dave

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Re: Other Games - 2023/24
« Reply #7995 on: November 21, 2023, 07:42:40 AM »
Southgate should have walked away when we lost to Croatia in the World Cup semi years ago.

In glory, having done far better than anyone had expected before the tournament?

Offline Bent Neilsens Screamer

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Re: Other Games - 2023/24
« Reply #7996 on: November 21, 2023, 08:07:59 AM »
England isnít a mess. Itís just fucking dull to watch. And we will look back at not taking full advantage at some of the best players in world because the manager wasnít good enough to get the most out of them. When the time comes he will fall back on his own conservatism and limitations. England will come close but not get over the line.

I donít disagree but Southgate will, rightly, say that weíve done better in tournaments under him than we have done for decades. His narrative will be that the conservative brand of football helped achieve that, history will back him up that a swashbuckling , attack, attack, attack team donít often win tournament football.
The fact that he didnít get the best out of the crop of players and he should have won the home euros wonít come into it, for him. Granted we entered the lottery of a penalty shootout but we sat back on an early lead, just as we had done against Croatia and eventually paid the price on both occasions.

Edit. To avoid a punathon, which Iím surprised hasnít already happened. Just goes to show know one reads my posts 😂
« Last Edit: November 21, 2023, 08:53:40 AM by Bent Neilsens Screamer »

Offline AV82EC

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Re: Other Games - 2023/24
« Reply #7997 on: November 21, 2023, 08:42:42 AM »
If Southgate was a half decent coach heíd be able to balance his inate conservatism with more attacking flair. His and the teams failures utterly reflect him, good team almost club like spirit and togetherness allied to good technical ability but when it really matters he hasnít got it in his locker to influence the game against teams who have all that and a decent coach. His other Achilles heel is that club spirit heís engendered which has now tipped over into being a stale clique.

As ever exit/defeat against the first decent team we come up against. The only thing that may save him is Bellingham having the tournament of his life.

Online London Villan

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Re: Other Games - 2023/24
« Reply #7998 on: November 21, 2023, 08:52:18 AM »
He is a penalty shoot-out and a couple of sending-offs better than Sven, with arguably a poorer collection of national teams around at the moment.

He has no imagination, or flare, as a manager. He'd never outthink an opponent.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2023, 09:33:01 AM by London Villan »

Offline SamTheMouse

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Re: Other Games - 2023/24
« Reply #7999 on: November 21, 2023, 09:30:42 AM »
Southgate should have walked away when we lost to Croatia in the World Cup semi years ago.

In glory, having done far better than anyone had expected before the tournament?

He's got a good record, but there's always that nagging suspicion that a tub of lard might not have done any worse.

Offline Dave

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Re: Other Games - 2023/24
« Reply #8000 on: November 21, 2023, 09:45:02 AM »
Southgate should have walked away when we lost to Croatia in the World Cup semi years ago.

In glory, having done far better than anyone had expected before the tournament?

He's got a good record, but there's always that nagging suspicion that a tub of lard might not have done any worse.

It's worth having a look at what people were saying pre-2018. The previous tournaments were (1) knocked out by Iceland, (2) finished bottom of the group with one point, (3) limp exit in the first knock-out round (4) absolute shellacking in the first knock-out round, (5) did not qualify.

The general consensus in 2018 was that getting out the group would be a decent sign of progress, anything more than that would be a bonus. The hindsight now that dragging Jesse Lingard, Phil Jones, Danny Wellbeck, Eric Dier and pals to a World Cup semi-final as being somehow below-par just isn't reasonable.

(not saying that you're doing that here though)
« Last Edit: November 21, 2023, 09:47:04 AM by Dave »

Offline pauliewalnuts

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Re: Other Games - 2023/24
« Reply #8001 on: November 21, 2023, 09:51:32 AM »
That's the thing, you have to have respect for what Southgate achieves. It's not proof he's an amazing manager, but nor does it suggest that he's clueless.

It's just that it should be an exciting, buccaneering team that we have out there, whereas actually, it's usually far from that.

It's hard to think otherwise when 62 year old Jordan Henderson, who practically doesn't even play professional football any more, continually gets run outs, or when Harry Maguire appears to be the first name on the team sheet.

Southgate's achievements deserve respect, but he is a hard man to like.

Offline SamTheMouse

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Re: Other Games - 2023/24
« Reply #8002 on: November 21, 2023, 10:03:53 AM »
Was Phil Jones really in that squad? Jaysus.

You're right Dave, of course. There's a tendency to gloss over how bad things were, and I'm as guilty of that as anyone. There's no denying the results under Southgate have been good on the whole, and I think where he has done very well is in fostering a much better professional culture and spirit in the squad. His man management skills seem very sound.

The nagging doubt for me, aside from the increasingly bizarre Maguire thing, is really around tactics, and wondering whether an "elite" coach might have squeezed that bit extra from the players in the games against the bigger sides, in particular the final against Italy where England really went into their shell and ceded the initiative. It's hard to say how much of that was natural fear of losing among the players, and whether Southgate could have done anything about it, but it felt like he himself was afraid - waiting far too long to bring Grealish on, for example.

A good example is the use of Watkins last night, and visibly not knowing enough about the player to set the team up to his strengths, instead asking him to perform a role he isn't suited to.

I suppose one of the best arguments in Southgate's favour is that there's no obvious candidate to replace him. Potter, maybe.

Offline Dave

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Re: Other Games - 2023/24
« Reply #8003 on: November 21, 2023, 10:12:04 AM »
I suppose one of the best arguments in Southgate's favour is that there's no obvious candidate to replace him. Potter, maybe.

I'd say a better argument is that there wasn't before - if he'd left after the Italy game in 2021 or after Qatar, it's not particulary obvious who would have taken over. There are probably now names that do work.

I've said before, I reckon he'll leave after the next tournament regardless of how we do. And he leaves thing in a (relatively?) good shape for someone like Howe or Potter to take over.

Offline Nev

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Re: Other Games - 2023/24
« Reply #8004 on: November 21, 2023, 10:12:40 AM »
Whatever the progress under this Manager it's stymied by the same attitude that has held the national side back for generations. Picking favoured players, or judging a player not on form or ability but on who they play for.

I'll leave you with this, if Rico Lewis has demonstrated the same form but in an Aston Villa shirt, would he have played last night?

The answer tells you the problem.

Offline dave shelley

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Re: Other Games - 2023/24
« Reply #8005 on: November 21, 2023, 10:20:13 AM »
I have this image in my head of Southgate driving along singing 'My Way' which he has on loop in his car, doing so with an evil grin on his face and at the top of his voice.

Offline Sexual Ealing

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Re: Other Games - 2023/24
« Reply #8006 on: November 21, 2023, 10:21:56 AM »
I have no axe to grind with Southgate or England - I'm not interested in either - but it's not some mad conspiracy that he favours players from the successful clubs. They play in more high-pressure games than players for clubs in mid-table, and there's more day-to-day pressure on them to perform at their best. I can't claim any special insight, but that seems obvious (and not insensible) to me.

Offline pauliewalnuts

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Re: Other Games - 2023/24
« Reply #8007 on: November 21, 2023, 10:23:39 AM »
I have no axe to grind with Southgate or England - I'm not interested in either - but it's not some mad conspiracy that he favours players from the successful clubs. They play in more high-pressure games than players for clubs in mid-table, and there's more day-to-day pressure on them to perform at their best. I can't claim any special insight, but that seems obvious (and not insensible) to me.

It's not so much that, most people would understand that - it's the fact that he still prefers some of them even when they hardly ever get a game at their clubs - Maguire, Phillips for example

Offline Sexual Ealing

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Re: Other Games - 2023/24
« Reply #8008 on: November 21, 2023, 10:29:45 AM »
I have no axe to grind with Southgate or England - I'm not interested in either - but it's not some mad conspiracy that he favours players from the successful clubs. They play in more high-pressure games than players for clubs in mid-table, and there's more day-to-day pressure on them to perform at their best. I can't claim any special insight, but that seems obvious (and not insensible) to me.

It's not so much that, most people would understand that - it's the fact that he still prefers some of them even when they hardly ever get a game at their clubs - Maguire, Phillips for example

I get that, but isn't the argument with Phillips that there's nobody else to play that role? As for Maguire, well...

Anyway. Just to reiterate, I don't care. That's why I'm taking time out of my working day to argue the toss about it. And that's why I'm such a dazzling success.

Offline Risso

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Re: Other Games - 2023/24
« Reply #8009 on: November 21, 2023, 10:33:02 AM »

I get that, but isn't the argument with Phillips that there's nobody else to play that role? As for Maguire, well...

Anyway. Just to reiterate, I don't care. That's why I'm taking time out of my working day to argue the toss about it. And that's why I'm such a dazzling success.

He's got Rice, who is excellent, and Bellingham, who is world class, so you don't really need Phillips, at least not as a starter.

 


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