Where do we go from here...

[Sexual Ealing]

It all begs the question if not Smith then who ? And getting replacement manager has all the same issues involved as signing a player.

this is my concern; would I rather stick with Smith than gamble on who the owners could bring in. Am I right in remembering their links to Thierry Henry previously? or was the another owners/time - I can't remember.

For me it's not about Smith or someone else as such. It's about knowing that we have a manager who is tactically flexible and who is prepared to make changes during a game decisively when it is clear that the original plan isn't working.

The top managers will make in game changes even if it means changing the shape or the personnel in the first half.

I would like Dean to be that manager but he consistently refuses or is unable to make changes that seem obvious.

How 532 lasted the whole of the first half against Arsenal was jaw dropping. It was so clearly a mistake. Making the change at half time when we were then 2-0 down was infuriating.

If Dean can show that he can be ruthless and admit to his own errors then great but nothing suggests so far that he can do that.

I certainly agree that we need a manager who changes things when we're playing shit, but where are they? Pep, Klopp, Bielsa definitely aren't 'tactically flexible'.

It dosen't have to be a manager who does a double sub after 20 minutes as Mourinho famously did a few times years back.

No interest at all in watching one of the worst first halves we've ever played again but anyone could see it wasn't working after 10 minutes. Nothing happened and we then inevitably conceded. Nothing happened still right up to the penalty.

From what I could see there was no tweak of formation or shifting of players e.g. considering the space Smith Rowe was getting floating around Cash surely bringing Ollie back and giving him more of a defensive role to help out the full back would've been logical? We were massively exposed with just two centrally so perhaps Axel could've been pushed into midfield just to disrupt Arsenal a bit more.

To simply sit on his hands yet again in a period of a game where we simply couldn't do anything isn't good enough to me and hints at why we probably won't finish top 8 under him as we'll simply have too many of these games season in season out.

I completely agree. Which manager changes things so early?

[Ads]

Managers invariable change little to nothing in game. They're incredibly stubborn, the lot of them.

[SoccerHQ]

Well I don't know, I don't watch as many random prem games as I used to.

Decent example perhaps would be how bad that Saul guy was for   Chelsea a few weeks back. Taken off promptly at half time.

Given what he's achieved since joining Chelsea Tuchel is clearly a far superior reader of games as they're going on than Lampard was for them so I think that's the crux for us now.

Asking too much to get in a manager of Tuchel's quality but there are I'm sure plenty of attainable managers in europe currently who could put out more coherent starting formations and change things quicker than Dean is.

I actually let him off last week v Wolves but plenty of people were hammering him for the 3 subs he made when 2 up so there's simply too much evidence against to suggest he's top half when it comes to game changing subs.

Once again this season we're rarely getting anything when we concede first, think it's just a point off Brentford.

[Ads]

He still waited until half time and they ought to have been 2 or 3 behind by then.

Smith can win me back. 6 points out the next two and your belief comes back. But its the fear that mistakes being repeated year in year out, that we're capable of being absolutely diabolical so often. It just fills you with the feeling that actually this is a bridge too far.

But you have a full squad now Smith. Put 3 proper runners in midfield and put 3 naturally positioned wide and attacking players up top. If that means Ollie, Traore and El Ghazi are on the bench against West Ham then so be it, as that's a quality bench.

[Sexual Ealing]

He still waited until half time and they ought to have been 2 or 3 behind by then.

Smith can win me back. 6 points out the next too and your belief comes back. But its the fear that mistakes being repeated year in year out, that we're capable of being absolutely diabolical so often. It just fills you with the feeling that actually this is a bridge too far.

But you have a full squad now Smith. Put 3 proper runners in midfield and put 3 naturally positioned wide and attacking players up top. If that means Ollie, Traore and El Ghazi are on the bench against West Ham then so be it, as that's a quality bench.

That sounds about right.

[Mister E]

The weird thing about Smith is that we can - and have done so this season - play well (Chelsea away - we played very good football; ManUre away - out-thought Gollum; Wolves at home - looked comfortable, with some very good football in the first half).
Friday night: totally different, starting with Watkins' silly yellow after 90 seconds.
Something happened after the Wolves game which has disaffected the squad and soured relationships between manager and players, by the looks of things.
Is it retrievable? - that is what Purslow has to decide, and quick.

[Rudy65]

One of the unfortunate aspects of our recent history is that we had to go to the Championship to end up with these owners. It has meant that we have had to come from a very low base. If they had rocked up around 2011 or 2012 imagine how different things would have been. Liverpool finished below us in 2010, were bought by proper owners and are now unrecognisable.

And made two great managerial appointments Rodgers and the world class Klopp

[KevinGage]

Managers invariable change little to nothing in game. They're incredibly stubborn, the lot of them.

I've referenced it before, but when he was managing Brentford and we played them away in our first season down there, he was very quick to switch it up after the first 20 minutes or so.

Henri Lansbury (Henri Lansbury FFS!) was stroking the ball around like Zidane and we should have been 2-3 up early on.

Smudger said after the game that Lansbury was getting too much space in the opening stages of the game so they pushed up 10-15 metres to nullify him. Not exactly groundbreaking. But playing a different sport, compared to Bruce.

He can be proactive.  Which makes it all the more frustating when he sits on his hands and does nowt.

As well as shoehorning Watkins and Tuanzebe into the starting XI, I wonder if the three at the back is to have a set number of tall 'yins at corners and set pieces. It's all well and good being more of a threat at attacking those. But shouldn't be picking sides with that solely in mind.  That's getting into Pulis territory.

[jwarry]

I just think it’s been a combination of crap happening (Jack, injuries. Internationals) and changing too much at the same time (players, coaches and formation) - so I’m going with we are in transition, and I’m sure the owners know that.  I also think Dean expected to win the last 2 games so he is probably feeling the pressure himself.  What I can’t excuse is blaming the players when he clearly got it so wrong foe that game, but Thai needs to be balanced with how that formation played Chelsea off the park despite losing.  Dean just need to figure out when to play 3 and when to play 4

[Risso]

I just think it’s been a combination of crap happening (Jack, injuries. Internationals) and changing too much at the same time (players, coaches and formation) - so I’m going with we are in transition, and I’m sure the owners know that.  I also think Dean expected to win the last 2 games so he is probably feeling the pressure himself.  What I can’t excuse is blaming the players when he clearly got it so wrong foe that game, but Thai needs to be balanced with how that formation played Chelsea off the park despite losing.  Dean just need to figure out when to play 3 and when to play 4

We've still got the core nucleus of the squad that we had last season. Martinez, Cash, Konsa, Mings, Targett, McGinn, Luiz, Watkins with the likes of Ramsey and El Ghazi as well.  That's what most clubs look to have each season with two to three fresh faces around, so the number of new players shouldn't be causing him a problem. The problems mostly appear to be of his own making. Trying to shoehorn Ings and Watkins together in to a system that suits absolutely nobody in the team.

[pauliewalnuts]

I really want it to work with Smith. It is true, we are an inconsistent team who can be brilliant at times, and utterly abysmal at other times. My concern is that that ratio is nowhere near where it needs to be.

I'd be interested to see (but am too lazy to find it) how many points we have in the last 38 league games. I am guessing it's nothing like what we'd need to do in a season to be where we want to be.

My problem with Friday was that it absolutely reeked of Paul Lambert. Everything. The clueless lack of shape, the refusal to believe what was happening in front of his eyes, the achieving less than the sum of the parts of the players he has, the predictable excuses and reality distortion field of the post match interview.

It just isn't good enough, I'm afraid. The owners have invested tons of money, and with lots of money comes an understandable expectation of better results, but at the moment we are not seeing that.

What we are seeing is the predictable pattern of surprisingly good result followed by match after match of absolute rubbish.

It makes me want to sick up a kidney when i read people going on about yeah but he's one of us, he's Villa through and through, like that makes up for the failings. Yeah, it's nice to have that connection, but it's depressingly small time when that's the best excuse people can come up with.

If we are going to be one of the top clubs again, we need to start acting it - the meek acceptance of rubbishness and the provision of lame excuses doesn't sit well with that.

He needs to get things looking much better, very quickly.

[Dante Lavelli]

1. Choose a formation - primarily four v three at the back as they’re not easily interchangeable.
2. The club’s transfer policy and training - top to bottom - should be geared towards that formation
3. Start listing/monitoring managers that excel playing that formation
4. Invest in Smith for the time being (he deserves that)
5. Be ruthless if the manager at the top of number 3 becomes available.

This ‘process’ approach should mean that all investment is heading in the same direction and is not wasted if there’s a change of manager.

[Risso]

I really want it to work with Smith. It is true, we are an inconsistent team who can be brilliant at times, and utterly abysmal at other times. My concern is that that ratio is nowhere near where it needs to be.

I'd be interested to see (but am too lazy to find it) how many points we have in the last 38 league games. I am guessing it's nothing like what we'd need to do in a season to be where we want to be.

My problem with Friday was that it absolutely reeked of Paul Lambert. Everything. The clueless lack of shape, the refusal to believe what was happening in front of his eyes, the achieving less than the sum of the parts of the players he has, the predictable excuses and reality distortion field of the post match interview.

It just isn't good enough, I'm afraid. The owners have invested tons of money, and with lots of money comes an understandable expectation of better results, but at the moment we are not seeing that.

What we are seeing is the predictable pattern of surprisingly good result followed by match after match of absolute rubbish.

It makes me want to sick up a kidney when i read people going on about yeah but he's one of us, he's Villa through and through, like that makes up for the failings. Yeah, it's nice to have that connection, but it's depressingly small time when that's the best excuse people can come up with.

If we are going to be one of the top clubs again, we need to start acting it - the meek acceptance of rubbishness and the provision of lame excuses doesn't sit well with that.

He needs to get things looking much better, very quickly.

The last 38 games have seen 50 points, which is quite reasonable of course, and would see a team finish 12th most years. However it's getting steadily worse, even with the two good results at the end of last season.

[curiousorange]

Under Ellis we acted small time. So then we were taken over, and looked like we might do it differently, until it became too expensive not to act small time. So then we were sold again, and it looked like being small time might be optimistic.

So then, we were bought by two people who have unimaginable levels of wealth. And I refuse to believe that after all of the above, we won't take decisions which allow us to break out of that "it'll do for now" mindset. Smith won't see out the season, and I doubt he'll see out the year.

[Smithy]

Under Ellis we acted small time. So then we were taken over, and looked like we might do it differently, until it became too expensive not to act small time. So then we were sold again, and it looked like being small time might be optimistic.

So then, we were bought by two people who have unimaginable levels of wealth. And I refuse to believe that after all of the above, we won't take decisions which allow us to break out of that "it'll do for now" mindset. Smith won't see out the season, and I doubt he'll see out the year.

I still think he'll see out the season, unless it looks like a top 10 finish is entirely beyond us.  If we're hovering in the 12th-8th places then he'll finish the season and the owners will decide next summer whether or not the progress has been sufficient.  I suspect it would not be - they will want another demonstrable year-on-year improvement, I'd imagine.  Right now, this season after 9 games, we are clearly behind where we want to be - but a season isn't played over 9 games.  And in each full season, he's improved us compared to the last.  Losing three on the bounce doesn't make him any more deserving of the sack than winning three in a row guarantees his job for another year.

Would I swap him to Thomas Tuchel? In a heartbeat, and I say that as someone who really likes Dean - but the reality is that Tuchel-level managers are few and far between, and we're probably not quite ready as a club to attract a Tier 1 manager yet (though maybe the owners would be willing to throw around the sort of money required to get one?)

Either way, I'd be surprised if he got the boot before the end of the season unless the current poor run extends into December.