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Author Topic: Dalian Atkinson trial  (Read 16283 times)

Offline PeterWithesShin

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Re: Dalian Atkinson trial
« Reply #180 on: September 30, 2022, 08:29:12 PM »
Surely the fact that Hopadop reckons they get 1 in every 5 verdicts wrong means that we shouldn't just blindly accept the decision.

Offline cdbearsfan

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Re: Dalian Atkinson trial
« Reply #181 on: September 30, 2022, 08:33:08 PM »
Strong "you can't talk about football unless you've played the game" vibes from that post.

She's a white cop, he's Black. She battered him while he was posing no threat and now he's dead, like so many other Black people at the hands of the police. You don't need to have studied law to work out what's gone on.

Any vibes unintended.  As I'm sure are any of yours.

My point is the 24 jurors who've heard all the evidence in the case are in the best position to assess it. Any additional baggage added is yours.

But you can apply the same argument to any infamous miscarriage of justice from Brum 6 to OJ. I'm happy to defer to your greater knowledge and take your word that juries get it right most of the time. It seems pretty much impossible that they've got it right this time, though, given that they've just allowed someone who battered an unarmed man who posed no threat and has subsequently died to walk free.

Offline paul_e

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Re: Dalian Atkinson trial
« Reply #182 on: September 30, 2022, 08:37:03 PM »
Nonsense. The evidence is overwhelming. She battered an unarmed Black man while he was lying on the ground. If we dismiss this because we assume the jury can't possibly make a mistake then we dismiss all the other times that Black people have been assaulted and/or died at the hands of police and not received justice. I'd rather not.

I don't think anyone's assuming juries can't make mistakes.  When they got it wrong it's normally as a result of evidence that's flawed or withheld.

The point still stands that the 12 people on the jury, who actually hear all the evidence, are in a better position to assess it than you, me or anyone else that hasn't.

in my experience I'd say they get it right most of the time.  In about 80% of cases they do exactly what I'd expect on, acquit or convict.  I might be disappointed at the latter but not surprised.  In about 15% they acquit where I'd expected them not to.  Normally they're deeply suspicious and unhappy with the defendant but there was something that made them unsure.  Often it's something that was lost on me.  5%, they convict when they really shouldn't, either because I think there should be a doubt or (worst case) I've actually thought the defendant innocent.  It's those that have caused me serious loss of sleep over the years, wondering what I did wrong or what more I could've done.

But it's never occurred to me that a bunch of people of people who were never in court, never heard the evidence, and never received a direction from the judge on the law, would be in a better position to decide someone's guilt or innocence.

Without leaning too heavily on the numbers that 15% seems very high and probably explains why so many people feel like this is the wrong verdict. I understand that it may be that something in the defence created sympathy for her but, without experiencing the trial, a defence of "he was big, angry and very scary so I felt I had no choice but to beat him whilst he lay dying on the floor" doesn't feel like that should've bene the case.

Offline brian green

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Re: Dalian Atkinson trial
« Reply #183 on: September 30, 2022, 08:44:36 PM »
Hopadop you disappoint me.  It is the clearest case of the truism that is as old as time.  If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, every law of probability says it is a duck.  She hit a dying man, not once but three times, in the head with a truncheon.  The verdict was shameful.

Offline Hopadop

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Re: Dalian Atkinson trial
« Reply #184 on: September 30, 2022, 08:46:11 PM »
Surely the fact that Hopadop reckons they get 1 in every 5 verdicts wrong means that we shouldn't just blindly accept the decision.

Just my view in those cases though, so if I'd been on any of those juries I would've been one of the dissenters.  Why they introduced majority verdicts, to discount the outliers.

Offline Hopadop

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Re: Dalian Atkinson trial
« Reply #185 on: September 30, 2022, 08:53:39 PM »
Strong "you can't talk about football unless you've played the game" vibes from that post.

She's a white cop, he's Black. She battered him while he was posing no threat and now he's dead, like so many other Black people at the hands of the police. You don't need to have studied law to work out what's gone on.

Any vibes unintended.  As I'm sure are any of yours.

My point is the 24 jurors who've heard all the evidence in the case are in the best position to assess it. Any additional baggage added is yours.

But you can apply the same argument to any infamous miscarriage of justice from Brum 6 to OJ. I'm happy to defer to your greater knowledge and take your word that juries get it right most of the time. It seems pretty much impossible that they've got it right this time, though, given that they've just allowed someone who battered an unarmed man who posed no threat and has subsequently died to walk free.

No you're right to question, and I really don't intend to shut you or anyone else down.  It's to your (and others) credit that you're upset about the case and what happened to DA.  That probably sounds patronising but I don't mean it to be.  I remember thinking that whatever state he was in, I hope he knew how loved he was.

I think I'm just a bit analytical when it comes to criminal law.  I have to be to be good at it, but also I've learned to be to stop myself getting overwhelmed at times.

I can only think that she gave evidence very convincingly.  Enough for this jury to acquit her unanimously, and for the other jury who were happy enough to pot her mate for manslaughter, to not be sure in sufficient numbers.

Offline Hopadop

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Re: Dalian Atkinson trial
« Reply #186 on: September 30, 2022, 08:55:54 PM »
Nonsense. The evidence is overwhelming. She battered an unarmed Black man while he was lying on the ground. If we dismiss this because we assume the jury can't possibly make a mistake then we dismiss all the other times that Black people have been assaulted and/or died at the hands of police and not received justice. I'd rather not.

I don't think anyone's assuming juries can't make mistakes.  When they got it wrong it's normally as a result of evidence that's flawed or withheld.

The point still stands that the 12 people on the jury, who actually hear all the evidence, are in a better position to assess it than you, me or anyone else that hasn't.

in my experience I'd say they get it right most of the time.  In about 80% of cases they do exactly what I'd expect on, acquit or convict.  I might be disappointed at the latter but not surprised.  In about 15% they acquit where I'd expected them not to.  Normally they're deeply suspicious and unhappy with the defendant but there was something that made them unsure.  Often it's something that was lost on me.  5%, they convict when they really shouldn't, either because I think there should be a doubt or (worst case) I've actually thought the defendant innocent.  It's those that have caused me serious loss of sleep over the years, wondering what I did wrong or what more I could've done.

But it's never occurred to me that a bunch of people of people who were never in court, never heard the evidence, and never received a direction from the judge on the law, would be in a better position to decide someone's guilt or innocence.

Without leaning too heavily on the numbers that 15% seems very high and probably explains why so many people feel like this is the wrong verdict. I understand that it may be that something in the defence created sympathy for her but, without experiencing the trial, a defence of "he was big, angry and very scary so I felt I had no choice but to beat him whilst he lay dying on the floor" doesn't feel like that should've bene the case.

I think it was a combination of a defence of self-defence, which has a big subjective element, and the fact she MUST have been very convincing.  We none of us heard her giving evidence.

Offline Hopadop

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Re: Dalian Atkinson trial
« Reply #187 on: September 30, 2022, 08:57:02 PM »
Hopadop you disappoint me.  It is the clearest case of the truism that is as old as time.  If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, every law of probability says it is a duck.  She hit a dying man, not once but three times, in the head with a truncheon.  The verdict was shameful.

My apologies Brian.  Maybe I'm too defence minded.

Offline brian green

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Re: Dalian Atkinson trial
« Reply #188 on: October 01, 2022, 09:09:23 AM »
I did not intend to sound censorious Hopadop.  You are one of the half dozen or so posters on H and V to whom I gravitate for wise counsel on topics that interest me.

Offline Exeter 77

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Re: Dalian Atkinson trial
« Reply #189 on: October 03, 2022, 07:57:37 PM »

Offline Scott Nielsen

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Re: Dalian Atkinson trial
« Reply #190 on: October 04, 2022, 05:23:30 AM »
30 years ago today Dalian did this.
https://twitter.com/AvfcArchive/status/1576865014840893440?t=dbMy2HWFR6Xp-8LBycTfqw&s=19

One my favorite goals of all time. Much of past football is a blur to me but I remember this vividly.

Offline Chico Hamilton III

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Re: Dalian Atkinson trial
« Reply #191 on: October 05, 2022, 10:16:10 AM »
30 years ago today Dalian did this.
https://twitter.com/AvfcArchive/status/1576865014840893440?t=dbMy2HWFR6Xp-8LBycTfqw&s=19

An old school mate of mine lives next door to Rioch, the umbrella fella. Sent me a photo of him in the pub the other week. He hasnít aged well.

Offline eamonn

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Re: Dalian Atkinson trial
« Reply #192 on: October 05, 2022, 06:54:11 PM »
He were already scruffy-looking enough in '92.

 


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