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Author Topic: Dalian Atkinson trial  (Read 6833 times)

Offline Legion

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Re: Dalian Atkinson police murder trial
« Reply #90 on: June 24, 2021, 03:12:40 PM »
BBC News - Dalian Atkinson: Jury fails to reach decision about second officer
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-shropshire-57595434

Offline robbo1874

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Re: Dalian Atkinson police murder trial
« Reply #91 on: June 24, 2021, 03:13:41 PM »
Kicks to the head will be enough for a murder charge, but rarely it seems enough for a jury to convict.  I've had three defendants (I think) acquitted of murder in those circumstances, whereas one who was convicted did a lot more besides.

It's not an exact science. The Preddie brothers who killed Damilola Taylor were only convicted of manslaughter, despite giving him a gash in his leg deep enough to sever an artery.  No evidence of an intention to kill, but to cause serious harm?  I'd have thought so, but they weren't even tried for murder.
Horrible world in which we live. Wouldn’t fancy your job at all.  The Damilola Taylor case was about 30 years ago? You’d have thought things might’ve moved on since then? Maybe not.

Online andyh

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Re: Dalian Atkinson police murder trial
« Reply #92 on: June 24, 2021, 03:38:32 PM »
BBC News - Dalian Atkinson: Jury fails to reach decision about second officer
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-shropshire-57595434
Jury appear to be feckin arseholes.

Online Richard E

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Re: Dalian Atkinson police murder trial
« Reply #93 on: June 24, 2021, 05:40:00 PM »
Why do they?

Offline Ad@m

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Re: Dalian Atkinson police murder trial
« Reply #94 on: June 24, 2021, 05:56:44 PM »
BBC News - Dalian Atkinson: Jury fails to reach decision about second officer
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-shropshire-57595434

I don't know whether any of our lawyers can explain this to me, but I've always wondered what the determining factor is between a jury coming to a majority verdict and failing to reach a decision?

Presumably they fail to reach a decision because they don't agree with each other.  So in that case, why don't they just go with a majority verdict?  Isn't that the point of having several people on a jury?  Or is it the case that if they're genuinely split down the middle - six for, six against - that's when they fail to reach a verdict?

Offline Toronto Villa

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Re: Dalian Atkinson police murder trial
« Reply #95 on: June 24, 2021, 06:01:13 PM »
I imagine with a murder trial the goal is to be absolute certain. Or as certain as can be based on the evidence presented. The consequences are obviously significant tied to an error. You hope all jurors are impartial and open to hearing the evidence without bias. The goal would be to present the evidence and have complete alignment on the outcome.

Offline Hopadop

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Re: Dalian Atkinson police murder trial
« Reply #96 on: June 24, 2021, 08:23:37 PM »
BBC News - Dalian Atkinson: Jury fails to reach decision about second officer
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-shropshire-57595434

I don't know whether any of our lawyers can explain this to me, but I've always wondered what the determining factor is between a jury coming to a majority verdict and failing to reach a decision?

Presumably they fail to reach a decision because they don't agree with each other.  So in that case, why don't they just go with a majority verdict?  Isn't that the point of having several people on a jury?  Or is it the case that if they're genuinely split down the middle - six for, six against - that's when they fail to reach a verdict?

The minimum number for a majority verdict is 10 (if the jury consists of 11 or 12 members) or nine (if they're down to 10).

It's a relatively recent development - to secure more verdicts by eventually discounting the one or two outliers.  There's no reason in theory why you can't have a simple 7-5 majority, but it suppose it doesn't have the same weight to it.  In a criminal trial you're asking people to be sure before they convict (or else acquit) so a small majority doesn't really tally with that.

I don't know what the stats are, but hung juries are relatively rare, and certainly not regular enough to water down the majority needed.

Online Sexual Ealing

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Offline Toronto Villa

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Re: Dalian Atkinson police murder trial
« Reply #98 on: June 28, 2021, 03:45:31 PM »
Unbelievable. Also extremely believable.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jun/28/dalian-atkinson-killing-officer-was-kept-on-despite-gross-misconduct

your second half of the statement is the most important and it isn't limited to police in the UK. I would put money on it being everywhere. Certainly we have seen situations like that in Canada, it has been proven very common in the US. Cops look after cops and the union hide and shield their members all the time. When you condone the behaviour you embolden the members who form the culture.

Offline Somniloquism

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Re: Dalian Atkinson police murder trial
« Reply #99 on: June 28, 2021, 04:14:28 PM »
There are not many places that would not sack someone over undisclosed Criminal cautions / convictions in a job application. Doubly surprised the Police did as it sounds like it was found when they started a check on the National Database which they didn't have back then.

Offline Risso

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Re: Dalian Atkinson police murder trial
« Reply #100 on: June 28, 2021, 04:24:04 PM »
There are not many places that would not sack someone over undisclosed Criminal cautions / convictions in a job application. Doubly surprised the Police did as it sounds like it was found when they started a check on the National Database which they didn't have back then.

Yes, that's bizarre. Normally any blatant porky pie on a CV would see somebody get the shove from most jobs as you say, but you'd have thought that lying when applying to the police would be much worse, and doubly so when it relates to actual criminal behaviour that you haven't disclosed. I wouldn't expect such a thing to bar somebody from a role with the police altogether, but it should at the very least be disclosed and discussed at the time of application. However, the fact that they found out that he'd lied and then did what amounts to nothing about it is staggering.

Offline SaddVillan

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Re: Dalian Atkinson police murder trial
« Reply #101 on: June 28, 2021, 06:25:50 PM »
Makes you wonder how many other "wronguns" there might be in uniform?

Sadly, this information will further undermine confidence in the police - to the detriment of the decent coppers out there.

Offline Hopadop

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Re: Dalian Atkinson police murder trial
« Reply #102 on: June 28, 2021, 06:53:38 PM »
Unbelievable. Also extremely believable.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jun/28/dalian-atkinson-killing-officer-was-kept-on-despite-gross-misconduct

"During the trial, the jury had noticed that Monk was not offering evidence of his good character. In a note sent to the judge, they queried why this was the case and were told to focus only on the evidence before them."

This is often a problem for the defence.  With hindsight I bet they wish they'd disclosed the cautions to the jury.  There's always the danger that they'd speculate about why they're not hearing about his good character, and assume there's (worse) things they're not being told.  If it's not that bad or relevant (and if it was the prosecution would be applying to admit it in the trial anyway) the defence are probably better off volunteering it to end the speculation.

Anyway, the prosecution are suggesting the correct starting point is one of 'High' culpability at 12 years.  I don't know if the defence accept this, but it seems likely.  Sentence tomorrow at 2pm.

Online Sexual Ealing

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Re: Dalian Atkinson police murder trial
« Reply #103 on: June 28, 2021, 07:03:53 PM »
Unbelievable. Also extremely believable.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jun/28/dalian-atkinson-killing-officer-was-kept-on-despite-gross-misconduct

"During the trial, the jury had noticed that Monk was not offering evidence of his good character. In a note sent to the judge, they queried why this was the case and were told to focus only on the evidence before them."

This is often a problem for the defence.  With hindsight I bet they wish they'd disclosed the cautions to the jury.  There's always the danger that they'd speculate about why they're not hearing about his good character, and assume there's (worse) things they're not being told.  If it's not that bad or relevant (and if it was the prosecution would be applying to admit it in the trial anyway) the defence are probably better off volunteering it to end the speculation.

Anyway, the prosecution are suggesting the correct starting point is one of 'High' culpability at 12 years.  I don't know if the defence accept this, but it seems likely.  Sentence tomorrow at 2pm.

Thanks Hopadop. Always very enlightening!

Offline yammers

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Re: Dalian Atkinson police murder trial
« Reply #104 on: June 28, 2021, 08:34:35 PM »
Unbelievable. Also extremely believable.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jun/28/dalian-atkinson-killing-officer-was-kept-on-despite-gross-misconduct

your second half of the statement is the most important and it isn't limited to police in the UK. I would put money on it being everywhere. Certainly we have seen situations like that in Canada, it has been proven very common in the US. Cops look after cops and the union hide and shield their members all the time. When you condone the behaviour you embolden the members who form the culture.

Absolute nonsense.  Nobody despises a crooked cop more than cop.  The union you speak of in the UK are powerless and British cops are not considered as employees so do not have the same employee rights that there international counterparts may or may not have.

Although I do accept the notion that there are crooked cops.  A society within a society and you will naturally get some bad eggs.


 


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