Disrespecting the cups

[Chris Smith]

I should point out that I was one of those who couldn’t’ be arsed yesterday. I’ve had stinking cold all week so decided to stay in the warm.

That said one of the consistent themes on this site is using the squad more. It appears that is what we did yesterday and collectively they failed to make the most of their opportunity. As always happens the blame is directed at the manager but should the team we put out yesterday not been capable of doing better?

[sickbeggar]

The FA cup has fallen way behind other competitions in the prize money stakes. If we had won the FA cup this year our total prize money would have been 3.4m which is peanuts frankly.

Is it really prize money that's to blame? Does anyone parade a big cheque to their town hall after a Wembley win? Given football is less profitable now than ever, all having more money does is allow you to spunk more money away. It's not a business like any other. Financially, the football "business" is a tax-dodge, a networking opportunity, a money-laundering route, an ego-boost, a plaything. It's not profit driven; it always spends more than it brings in, leaving an internal market to allow cashflow to mask insolvency. So while the income from prize money and the like suits owners, why would fans care? I get why owners, players, even managers would want to look for the cash over glory. I don't know why a supporter would.

Remember our run of consecutive top ten finishes in the Deloitte list? Heady days.

But the FA cup didn't start as some little competition with no value to winning it. It got prestige and people took it seriously because you COULD make a lot of money comparable to the bread and butter of the league. Now, while a lower division club could probably still pay off its debts with a good cup run,  to anyone else it's a distraction from the competitions where the money is. That needs to be altered to fix the bias towards the league competitions. Would we have took it more seriously if you got 10m instead of £360,000 for reaching the QF's? You bet we would have

[Chris Smith]

So,by some peoples reasoning as we are not going to win the F.A. Cup we shouldn't be bothered. Ok then, are we likely to win the Premier League in the next 5 years? No ok lets forget about it then, in fact why bother at all?? Were not going to win the Championship, so err why bother? Someone might get injured. Players get injured in training, better not train them (which I dont think we do anyway) Personally a cup run would be great, momentum, confidence, big games, isn't that what we want? Hope we win on Saturday, if not well whats the excuse then, saving players for Burton as that is more winnable??

In a cup competition you either win the trophy or you don’t, getting to the last 8, for example, gains you absolutely nothing. The same is not true of the league due to play offs or European qualification in the PL. This in turn gives you a potential opportunity to sign better players and thus improve further. Therefore I don’t think your analogies are entirely accurate.

[Three Spires Villa]

Dont disagree Chris Smith, but Bree at centre half?? We have some decent youngsters who could have played, Easah Suliman for example at centre half. The midfield looked very strange. Jack had his best game for us since the Cup Semi v Bristol, why not play him?

Anyway, I am still miffed that a Division 1 team beat us, regardless if we can win the cup or not. Play like we did against Bristol City, and loose ok I can handle that, play like we did yesterday, and far to many times under SB, and loose, then i am not happy.

[Nunkin1965]

Nunkin1965, I agree, if we don't win next week the momentum has gone and there will be another crisis. What team id you want to start if I may ask?

Apologies for the late response.

In my world which isn’t reality I’d have gone with pretty much the same side as last week or as close as possible, but I’ll bow to the pressure of too many games even though I don’t think it holds water and go for this line up. I’ve given this 10 minutes and I think we’d have been better.

Steer
Hutton Terry Elphick Taylor
O’Hare, Lansbury, Whelan, Doyle Hayes,
Rushian, Davis.

Steer was fine as I don’t see any serious effect on the side and I would have gone with him.
Hutton, Terry,Elphick,Taylor.
The back four was a complete disaster.
Why make so many changes leaving John Terry so exposed?
Which would mean I’d try and protect him a bit.
Midfield.  Whelan, O’Hare,Doyle Hayes, Lansbury.
Playing Thor in midfield was an awful decision. Peterborough just waltzed through us.
Up Front Davis, Rushian.
Strong first team bench for me as well.

[exiled on the wirral!]

Only six games. Yet we haven't won 6 in a row in 61 years. Maybe it's not quite so easy and even less easy these days.

It's not six in a row though is it? It's six individual games spread out over half a season.

I was chatting to someone yesterday about the FA cup, and even though our recent record is less than brilliant I remember our cup runs to the finals more so than just some random fixtures. I remember we played Wolves in the early 80s, think it may have been the fourth round. Villa Park was rammed and there were thousands of Wolves locked out. The FA cup means something special to us fans. It's a shame that the it doesn't mean as much to Steve Bruce and Co.

I don't recall Ron Saunders ever putting out a weakend  team in any competition, but then again he set out to win every single game and managed to win a few trophies along the way and won the league using only 14 players.

That year we won the league with 14 players we went out in the opening round of both league cup and FA Cup...Ipswich reached the final of the UEFA Cup and Semi's of the FA Cup, maybe it took it's toll in the end on Ipswich.

I just don't get this mock outrage of our much changed squad on here. Can honestly anyone say they were surprised at the line up yesterday? Also people moaning about the ticket price yesterday..was it really that bad? £10-£15 and £1 for kids I would imagine is cheaper than games in the conference yesterday.

I was annoyed we got beat at home by lower league opposition with a weakened team, but this is down to some players attitude on the day more than the manager being crap..on this occasion.

[Three Spires Villa]

Ok Chris Smith fair comment. Just annoyed that people dont think it matters. That is their right of course. I dont agree. Would rather Villa put up a fight in the cup, both cup competitions. Whislt I was being flippant about the premier league, its a shame that if we go up next year, the third round of the cup will be written off as we need to finish 16th. I just find it sad 

[Nunkin1965]

I should point out that I was one of those who couldn’t’ be arsed yesterday. I’ve had stinking cold all week so decided to stay in the warm.

That said one of the consistent themes on this site is using the squad more. It appears that is what we did yesterday and collectively they failed to make the most of their opportunity. As always happens the blame is directed at the manager but should the team we put out yesterday not been capable of doing better?

Using the squad is fine. But 10 changes when we can barely cope when 1 or 2 are missing was never going to work.

[Three Spires Villa]

Nunkin1965, I agree, if we don't win next week the momentum has gone and there will be another crisis. What team id you want to start if I may ask?

Apologies for the late response.

In my world which isn’t reality I’d have gone with pretty much the same side as last week or as close as possible, but I’ll bow to the pressure of too many games even though I don’t think it holds water and go for this line up. I’ve given this 10 minutes and I think we’d have been better.



Steer
Hutton Terry Elphick Taylor
O’Hare, Lansbury, Whelan, Doyle Hayes,
Rushian, Davis.

Steer was fine as I don’t see any serious effect on the side and I would have gone with him.
Hutton, Terry,Elphick,Taylor.
The back four was a complete disaster.
Why make so many changes leaving John Terry so exposed?
Which would mean I’d try and protect him a bit.
Midfield.  Whelan, O’Hare,Doyle Hayes, Lansbury.
Playing Thor in midfield was an awful decision. Peterborough just waltzed through us.
Up Front Davis, Rushian.
Strong first team bench for me as well.

Agree with that team

[Simon Page]

But the FA cup didn't start as some little competition with no value to winning it. It got prestige and people took it seriously because you COULD make a lot of money comparable to the bread and butter of the league. Now, while a lower division club could probably still pay off its debts with a good cup run,  to anyone else it's a distraction from the competitions where the money is. That needs to be altered to fix the bias towards the league competitions. Would we have took it more seriously if you got 10m instead of £360,000 for reaching the QF's? You bet we would have

The FA Cup started in 1871. Professionalism was allowed from 1885. The FA Cup remained arguably the most prestigious trophy in English football until sometime in the 1990s. Certainly when we were winning the European Cup ITV were presenting it as a prelude to the biggest final of all taking place the following evening.

But historical pedantry aside, as I said I can understand why an owner prioritises promotion over a trophy. I get why a manager would use that owner's priorities as an excuse or chance to rest players and try others. I don't know a single reason why supporters give a stuff if we are making a loss on income of £10m or £100m. In answer to your question though, the owners of the club would only have taken £10m seriously if we were seriously in the shit. But if it is the cash they are after, they can spare me the "join our Cup journey" bullshit.

[Jimbo]

Did we disrespect the FA Cup yesterday? I'm not so sure.

As people have pointed out, many clubs put out weakened sides and lose. But I doubt we set out to throw the game. What we did was put out a discombobulated second string with no real shape, plan, organisation, fight or desire to win a competitive game of football, even against lower league opposition. We were so arrogant we thought we'd brush Peterborough aside.

Despite all that we can shrug our shoulders and say "it don't really matter, does it?" as I've seen us do probably hundreds of times, increasingly so in recent years, to mitigate yet another half-arsed performance (we used to say it when we lost to bigger clubs - now that list of clubs is growing and we simply expect defeat to them as a formality).

If anything was disrespected yesterday, it was Aston Villa, and anyone who believes it should get over itself and behave like a proper football club and not some kind of posh health resort and gym for young millionaires. 

[sickbeggar]

But the FA cup didn't start as some little competition with no value to winning it. It got prestige and people took it seriously because you COULD make a lot of money comparable to the bread and butter of the league. Now, while a lower division club could probably still pay off its debts with a good cup run,  to anyone else it's a distraction from the competitions where the money is. That needs to be altered to fix the bias towards the league competitions. Would we have took it more seriously if you got 10m instead of £360,000 for reaching the QF's? You bet we would have

The FA Cup started in 1871. Professionalism was allowed from 1885. The FA Cup remained arguably the most prestigious trophy in English football until sometime in the 1990s. Certainly when we were winning the European Cup ITV were presenting it as a prelude to the biggest final of all taking place the following evening.

But historical pedantry aside, as I said I can understand why an owner prioritises promotion over a trophy. I get why a manager would use that owner's priorities as an excuse or chance to rest players and try others. I don't know a single reason why supporters give a stuff if we are making a loss on income of £10m or £100m. In answer to your question though, the owners of the club would only have taken £10m seriously if we were seriously in the shit. But if it is the cash they are after, they can spare me the "join our Cup journey" bullshit.

Well i think everyone is interested in the financial aspect.  We've all been moaning about FFP and how its affecting us. At the moment if we don't go up we're faced with possibly another season looking for bargain basement signings and if we got to the QF's of the cup, well frankly, £360,000 is gabby's wages for a few months.. Now imagine if a QF run gets you 10m. Then suddenly you have a dilemma where its actually  financially worth getting to the QF's and if you get to the QF's you're 90 minutes away from the semi's and 20M. Changes the whole mindset i think,

[TopDeck113]

The FA Cup started in 1871. Professionalism was allowed from 1885. The FA Cup remained arguably the most prestigious trophy in English football until sometime in the 1990s. Certainly when we were winning the European Cup London-centric ITV were presenting it as a prelude to the all-London final taking place the following evening.

Fixed for you.

[Simon Page]

Well i think everyone is interested in the financial aspect.  We've all been moaning about FFP and how its affecting us. At the moment if we don't go up we're faced with possibly another season looking for bargain basement signings and if we got to the QF's of the cup, well frankly, £360,000 is gabby's wages for a few months.. Now imagine if a QF run gets you 10m. Then suddenly you have a dilemma where its actually  financially worth getting to the QF's and if you get to the QF's you're 90 minutes away from the semi's and 20M. Changes the whole mindset i think,

Would you have been more concerned about yesterday if the prize money was greater? Like I keep saying, I get why people at the club might, but would you as a supporter? Is that what it has come down to? We can have more money to fail to compete with clubs in a higher division. I can accept there will be supporters who, unlike me, would rather be in the top flight than competing and going into matches and campaigns with uncertainty about the end result. Even I would rather be crap in the Premier League than crap in a lower division. But it's the competitive nature and shock value that draws me to football, not the income stream.

I get the FFP argument, although if we were handed £20m we'd probably spend £22m of it - and that isn't a typo. We, like the rest of football, don't follow the spirit of the law on FFP we find ways round it. But if we are using the need to get back to the top flight as our excuse this season, what about all the others? Is chasing income now the only goal? If so, again, the club can spare me the "Part of the Pride" nonsense and own its avarice.

[Chris Smith]

Ok Chris Smith fair comment. Just annoyed that people dont think it matters. That is their right of course. I dont agree. Would rather Villa put up a fight in the cup, both cup competitions. Whislt I was being flippant about the premier league, its a shame that if we go up next year, the third round of the cup will be written off as we need to finish 16th. I just find it sad 

Me too, mate, I would much rather be back in a time when the FA Cup was a huge thing played in front of big crowds but sadly we live in an era when being in the top division is given priority by players, managers and owners.