Bruce Sacked at last (now official)

[JUAN PABLO]

Clemence has left his coaching role













replaced by the cabbage

[chrisw1]

I sort of agree with the comments about personal abuse but the flip side of that is that there's been plenty of reasonably constructive criticism, highlighting specific flaws and he's dismissed it with an attitude that people who haven't played the game at the top level don't know what they're talking about. If we hadn't had 2 years of excuses over the same problems week after week with him dismissing the concerns as hysteria or just coming from the 'mad' then it might not have got to this point.

The cabbage thing is clearly ridiculous and any physical threats should be dealt with severely but moaning about a lack of class because people are calling him useless and adding a swear word or 2 is taking it too far, for me.

Are you saying reasonably constructive criticism on Twiiter, or screamed at him from the stands during match days?  Or are you expecting him to come on here to debate tactics? 

What manager has ever responded to fan criticism with dialogue and discussion? 

There's no flip side Paul, the personal abuse is disgusting and unacceptable.

I'm saying that when he gets asked about criticism and he comes out with shit like "I've got 20 years experience and 4 promotions" he isn't doing himself any favours if he then doesn't address the problems. Generally most people (not all, some will have gone straight calling him names) only become abusive if they feel it's the only way to get the point across that he's failing.  I'm not saying it's right (or wrong) to call someone a c**t but I am saying that calling it disgusting and unacceptable (or various other terms from the last few pages) or saying it makes our fans show a lack of class is pushing into the realms of the permanently offended and ignoring the reality that football crowds will always go a little personal at times.

Is it disgusting that crowds sing the ref is a wanker all across the country when decisions go against them? What about the whole "ahhhhhhh, you fat bastard" when a tubby keeper takes a goal kick? Can you honestly say you've never sworn at anyone when they've done something you're not happy with? My point here is just how far does your moral outrage extend?  As I said, threats, physical violence, vegetable throwing are all crossing a line but complaining over phrases like 'useless fat c**t' is taking it too far.

I was asking about the constructive criticism you referred to.  You were inferring there had been some sort of constructive dialogue which clearly there hasn't.  Managers rarely, if ever, discuss tactics in detail with fans.

You may not think 100's of fans hurling vile abuse from right behind him is unacceptable, but I do.  Chanting and singing is fine, screaming vitriol into someones face is not in my book.  If you class that as being permanently offended and false moral outrage then fair enough, but I'm clearly not alone and I thought you had more class than that.

[Russ aka Big Nose]

I don't agree with the personal abuse, even if his conduct has been appalling, i.e. insulting fans, telling porkies, and stretching credibility with his excuses.

And yes we know he is enduring the abuse (most likely) because it means he gets paid off. Most would say he should resign, me included, but I don't know whether I would feel the same way if it meant waving goodbye to £2-3m. Not that I am ever going to face that decision.

Apart from anything else, the personal abuse offers a chance to deflect legitimate criticism and engenders sympathy for him when none is merited. Highlighting the worst failing, like singing 'There or Thereabouts' at Bristol City or calling for another right-back to be signed or whatever exposes his failings and any sensible assessment of those should see him gone, pronto. UTV.

[andyh]

There were 100’s fans hurling vile abuse from right behind him?
How many 100’s ?

Genuine question, becuse I didn’t get that impression from where I was, admittedly directly opposite the dugout.

[PeterWithesShin]

And who screamed vitriol into his face and how did they leave the stands to do that?

[Joe S]

This made me laugh...

[robleflaneur]

I see that the 'give him until the end of the season' vote has increased by 1 from a week or 2 ago.
I am now beginning to waver because last night's game was one of the most memorable at VP in my many years of attendance.
The football was awful but I can't fault the entertainment,especially after the event.
Will the authorities catch the dreaded Phantom Cabbage Thrower ? The world holds it's breath.
My fear is that Bruce will be moved to other spheres,perhaps handling Brexit ,hosting Question Time or becoming West Midlands Police Commissioner in the ongoing battle against vegetable crime.

[chrisw1]

And who screamed vitriol into his face and how did they leave the stands to do that?

You don't think he turned round during the whole match?

FFS, why are you desperately trying to defend this?

[Clark W Griswold]

I think they'll sack him early next week, unlikely before.

[paul_e]

I sort of agree with the comments about personal abuse but the flip side of that is that there's been plenty of reasonably constructive criticism, highlighting specific flaws and he's dismissed it with an attitude that people who haven't played the game at the top level don't know what they're talking about. If we hadn't had 2 years of excuses over the same problems week after week with him dismissing the concerns as hysteria or just coming from the 'mad' then it might not have got to this point.

The cabbage thing is clearly ridiculous and any physical threats should be dealt with severely but moaning about a lack of class because people are calling him useless and adding a swear word or 2 is taking it too far, for me.

Are you saying reasonably constructive criticism on Twiiter, or screamed at him from the stands during match days?  Or are you expecting him to come on here to debate tactics? 

What manager has ever responded to fan criticism with dialogue and discussion? 

There's no flip side Paul, the personal abuse is disgusting and unacceptable.

I'm saying that when he gets asked about criticism and he comes out with shit like "I've got 20 years experience and 4 promotions" he isn't doing himself any favours if he then doesn't address the problems. Generally most people (not all, some will have gone straight calling him names) only become abusive if they feel it's the only way to get the point across that he's failing.  I'm not saying it's right (or wrong) to call someone a c**t but I am saying that calling it disgusting and unacceptable (or various other terms from the last few pages) or saying it makes our fans show a lack of class is pushing into the realms of the permanently offended and ignoring the reality that football crowds will always go a little personal at times.

Is it disgusting that crowds sing the ref is a wanker all across the country when decisions go against them? What about the whole "ahhhhhhh, you fat bastard" when a tubby keeper takes a goal kick? Can you honestly say you've never sworn at anyone when they've done something you're not happy with? My point here is just how far does your moral outrage extend?  As I said, threats, physical violence, vegetable throwing are all crossing a line but complaining over phrases like 'useless fat c**t' is taking it too far.

I was asking about the constructive criticism you referred to.  You were inferring there had been some sort of constructive dialogue which clearly there hasn't.  Managers rarely, if ever, discuss tactics in detail with fans.

You may not think 100's of fans hurling vile abuse from right behind him is unacceptable, but I do.  Chanting and singing is fine, screaming vitriol into someones face is not in my book.  If you class that being permanently offended and false moral outrage then fair enough, but I'm clearly not alone and I thought you had more class than that.

I inferred nothing of the sort, as I said, his default stance to any question of his ability is to talk about his experience as if that means he's immune to any criticism. Even when he claims to accept responsibility he follows it almost immediately by blaming someone else. On top of that, as above, we carry on making the same mistakes.

After that you're getting a bit strawman I'm afraid. I said nothing about someone walking up and screaming in his face, I agree that would be unacceptable, but there's nothing to suggest it's happened either. People shouting from the stand is a very long way from that though.


After that what are you claiming as 'vile personal abuse' do you even know of any examples? Where does 'useless fat w****r' sit with you? You've already said chants of the ref being one is ok so I'm trying to work out exactly what you're offended by.

[sickbeggar]

I wanna know what the police are planning to charge the Phantom Cabbage Thrower with? Carrying a concealed Vegatable? Assault with a deadly salad ingrediant? . if its a public order offence won't they have to round up the other couple of thousand effing and blinding at Bruce? I mean we live in an age where you can get burgled and you're lucky if the police will turn up a day later, let alone investigate who's done it. Seems Bruce has lost his sense of humour and proportion the same time as his coaching skills.

[old man villa fan]

The average fan never gets an opportunity to discuss the Club with the manager/owners/media so their only time to get their point over is at games. If they get ignored or, worse still, ridiculed, they will up the ante. The more they are ignored, the more they get annoyed. I do not generally swear but there are others that do all the time. Raising their level of disgust will appear abusive to others. Many on here have said they like Bruce as a person but not as a manager. Therefore, are they abusing the manager or the person. The former comes with the territory.

Regarding the cabbage, it was surely meant as a statement, just like the "we're not fickle" banner. As a statement, it had the desired effect. It is nowhere near the Taylor swede episode.

The team is going backwards with no sign of progression in anything for the future.  This is why he has to go. He has had 2 years and we are no further forward than when he came in.  He is not the type of manager that plans for the future of the club he manages. It's all about him.

Constantly referring back to the play-off final without mentioning we were crap and played a lot of the game against 10 men, together with the fact that automatic promotion was the target, is driving me mad. I do not get the opportunity to put my point across to Bruce, the owners or the media, so why should I limit my shouting to "I say, Mr Bruce, I think it is time to move on"

[chrisw1]

I sort of agree with the comments about personal abuse but the flip side of that is that there's been plenty of reasonably constructive criticism, highlighting specific flaws and he's dismissed it with an attitude that people who haven't played the game at the top level don't know what they're talking about. If we hadn't had 2 years of excuses over the same problems week after week with him dismissing the concerns as hysteria or just coming from the 'mad' then it might not have got to this point.

The cabbage thing is clearly ridiculous and any physical threats should be dealt with severely but moaning about a lack of class because people are calling him useless and adding a swear word or 2 is taking it too far, for me.

Are you saying reasonably constructive criticism on Twiiter, or screamed at him from the stands during match days?  Or are you expecting him to come on here to debate tactics? 

What manager has ever responded to fan criticism with dialogue and discussion? 

There's no flip side Paul, the personal abuse is disgusting and unacceptable.

I'm saying that when he gets asked about criticism and he comes out with shit like "I've got 20 years experience and 4 promotions" he isn't doing himself any favours if he then doesn't address the problems. Generally most people (not all, some will have gone straight calling him names) only become abusive if they feel it's the only way to get the point across that he's failing.  I'm not saying it's right (or wrong) to call someone a c**t but I am saying that calling it disgusting and unacceptable (or various other terms from the last few pages) or saying it makes our fans show a lack of class is pushing into the realms of the permanently offended and ignoring the reality that football crowds will always go a little personal at times.

Is it disgusting that crowds sing the ref is a wanker all across the country when decisions go against them? What about the whole "ahhhhhhh, you fat bastard" when a tubby keeper takes a goal kick? Can you honestly say you've never sworn at anyone when they've done something you're not happy with? My point here is just how far does your moral outrage extend?  As I said, threats, physical violence, vegetable throwing are all crossing a line but complaining over phrases like 'useless fat c**t' is taking it too far.

I was asking about the constructive criticism you referred to.  You were inferring there had been some sort of constructive dialogue which clearly there hasn't.  Managers rarely, if ever, discuss tactics in detail with fans.

You may not think 100's of fans hurling vile abuse from right behind him is unacceptable, but I do.  Chanting and singing is fine, screaming vitriol into someones face is not in my book.  If you class that being permanently offended and false moral outrage then fair enough, but I'm clearly not alone and I thought you had more class than that.

I inferred nothing of the sort, as I said, his default stance to any question of his ability is to talk about his experience as if that means he's immune to any criticism. Even when he claims to accept responsibility he follows it almost immediately by blaming someone else. On top of that, as above, we carry on making the same mistakes.

After that you're getting a bit strawman I'm afraid. I said nothing about someone walking up and screaming in his face, I agree that would be unacceptable, but there's nothing to suggest it's happened either. People shouting from the stand is a very long way from that though.


After that what are you claiming as 'vile personal abuse' do you even know of any examples? Where does 'useless fat w****r' sit with you? You've already said chants of the ref being one is ok so I'm trying to work out exactly what you're offended by.

You referred to constructive criticism, I questioned this.  So you decided to go on the attack regarding me calling the abuse vile.  If your trawl through the threads on here you will see numerous similar references to personal insults being over the top.  I was sat in the trinity.  I can assure you there was a huge amount of abuse during the second half and when he walked off.  And yes PWS, at times he was facing the crowd when this happened.

[PeterWithesShin]

And who screamed vitriol into his face and how did they leave the stands to do that?

You don't think he turned round during the whole match?

FFS, why are you desperately trying to defend this?

You have no idea if he did, you're the one exaggerating not me.

[Hookeysmith]

Surely the only reason he has not been pulled is the clear lack of a decent and available replacement*






*Although I think it is that bad at the moment that to not have him near the team selection and (dare is say) tactics at all would help immensely