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Author Topic: Hillsborough  (Read 37780 times)

Offline Richard E

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #330 on: November 29, 2019, 08:13:19 AM »
I defy anyone to read ‘And The Sun Shines Now’ by Adrian Tempany and/or ‘Hillsborough:The Truth’ by Phil Scraton and not be filled with the most profound anger, outrage and sense of gross injustice.

Offline Somniloquism

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #331 on: November 29, 2019, 10:42:10 AM »
There should be a retrial. Terrible guidance from the judge apparently. Brought up football hooliganism in his summing up after it had been shown to be completely irrelevant by the evidence.

Isn't this the second one anyway? First one was a hung jury so they started again.

Offline Richard E

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #332 on: November 29, 2019, 11:18:24 AM »
There should be a retrial. Terrible guidance from the judge apparently. Brought up football hooliganism in his summing up after it had been shown to be completely irrelevant by the evidence.

Isn't this the second one anyway? First one was a hung jury so they started again.

Third one. There was also a hung jury in a previous trial 19 years ago.

Offline Hopadop

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #333 on: November 29, 2019, 11:34:39 AM »
There should be a retrial. Terrible guidance from the judge apparently. Brought up football hooliganism in his summing up after it had been shown to be completely irrelevant by the evidence.
Outrageous decision. Why the hell was hooliganism even anything to do with the summary.

In his summing up the judge does just that - sums up the evidence the jury's heard. He doesn't introduce new evidence.

So the jury did hear about issues facing those policing football matches of the day. They had to for some context. A primary concern was crowd control as well as, or more than, crowd safety. That's why the fences were there.

I read that the defence wanted to show the jury videos of some of the worst cases of hooliganism of the day for the purpose of context. The prosecution objected and the judge agreed they shouldn't be shown. It's an adversarial system and an exercise in balance for the judge.

It was always going to be the case that an acquittal would be seen as failing the dead and their families, particularly after the inquest verdicts (which encroached on the role of the criminal court) but the trial wasn't supposed to be for show, and given the burden and standard of proof it was never a foregone conclusion. It must have been incredibly difficult for the 11 jurors that made it to the end, and they deserve credit for returning a verdict that was always going to be very unpopular.

Offline wittonwarrior

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #334 on: November 29, 2019, 12:23:04 PM »
I've always taken the view that Duckinfield has been made a scapegoat.  Yes he lied but was put in a position which was far beyond his capabilities.

The real culprits are The SYP bosses, Sheffield City Council, the FA, Sheff Wed and the police in general

SYP for putting such an understated person in charge of the event at such short notice.
Sheffield City Council for failing to ensure that a safety cert was in place at one of the major sporting arenas in their area,
The FA knowing the recent history of issues with overcrowding on the leppings lane allowing the match to be allocated to Hillsborough
Sheff Wed for being greedy gits, for being totally negligent with no safety cert in place
The police for their constant lies and cover ups.

Sheffield and the ground up to today should also be taken to task.  Why has such a death trap been allowed to stand even today.  The narrow gangways, the tunnel of death which remains in the lower tier and to the fact that they have the fuckin cheek to charge in excess of £40

Sheffield City Council for allowing trams rammed before proportions to and from Hillsborough on match days

The police for their continued hatred towards us football fans.


Offline Damo70

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #335 on: November 29, 2019, 03:38:32 PM »
On the one hand I feel that Duckenfield has been treated lightly. On the other hand I would not want to have lived in his shoes for the past thirty years.

Offline Chris Smith

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #336 on: November 29, 2019, 03:44:41 PM »
I've always taken the view that Duckinfield has been made a scapegoat.  Yes he lied but was put in a position which was far beyond his capabilities.

The real culprits are The SYP bosses, Sheffield City Council, the FA, Sheff Wed and the police in general

SYP for putting such an understated person in charge of the event at such short notice.
Sheffield City Council for failing to ensure that a safety cert was in place at one of the major sporting arenas in their area,
The FA knowing the recent history of issues with overcrowding on the leppings lane allowing the match to be allocated to Hillsborough
Sheff Wed for being greedy gits, for being totally negligent with no safety cert in place
The police for their constant lies and cover ups.

Sheffield and the ground up to today should also be taken to task.  Why has such a death trap been allowed to stand even today.  The narrow gangways, the tunnel of death which remains in the lower tier and to the fact that they have the fuckin cheek to charge in excess of £40

Sheffield City Council for allowing trams rammed before proportions to and from Hillsborough on match days

The police for their continued hatred towards us football fans.


Not sure how he can be a scapegoat when he was in charge, made the bad decisions than caused the crush and then lied repeatedly to cover up his culpability.

Offline Damo70

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #337 on: November 29, 2019, 03:49:51 PM »
I think when people use the word scapegoat they are not excusing Duckenfield's behaviour but suggesting that there are a number of other individuals who should have joined him in facing the music but have got off lightly.

Offline Chico Hamilton III

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #338 on: November 29, 2019, 04:09:22 PM »
Duckenfield lied within hours of the disaster, blaming Liverpool fans for charging down the gates that he had opened himself. He’s not a scapegoat in my eyes, he’s the chief suspect

Offline p_ad

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #339 on: November 29, 2019, 04:47:30 PM »
Anyone listen to the Jeremy vine show today?, I didn't catch the woman's name she was talking about her brother who died at Hillsborough. One of the most powerful interviews I have heard in a long time, and she did not hold back on her views of the people responsible .
« Last Edit: November 29, 2019, 04:54:36 PM by p_ad »

Offline Drummond

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #340 on: November 29, 2019, 05:08:54 PM »
I have to say I massively regret not having an argument on the bus in to work this morning. An old woman (75+) when looking at the front page of Metro, said 'that's disgusting that' referring to the headline re the outcome of the trial. As I, and others, nodded in agreement, to my utter disbelief she then said 'what they put that man through is disgraceful'.

The old guy next to her said 'I'm not sure football fans would agree with you'. And all I could feel myself doing was nodding again. I couldn't face arguing with an old person on public transport.

There are many in Sheffield who still believe that what happened that day was as a result of the Liverpool fans' behaviour. Because of what was said locally, because of the reports locally of what they saw (drunken fans behaving badly etc.) it's still the feeling.

I'm disappointed in myself for not taking up the argument. Sorry.

Offline BC Villain

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #341 on: November 29, 2019, 07:09:58 PM »
I have to say I massively regret not having an argument on the bus in to work this morning. An old woman (75+) when looking at the front page of Metro, said 'that's disgusting that' referring to the headline re the outcome of the trial. As I, and others, nodded in agreement, to my utter disbelief she then said 'what they put that man through is disgraceful'.

The old guy next to her said 'I'm not sure football fans would agree with you'. And all I could feel myself doing was nodding again. I couldn't face arguing with an old person on public transport.

There are many in Sheffield who still believe that what happened that day was as a result of the Liverpool fans' behaviour. Because of what was said locally, because of the reports locally of what they saw (drunken fans behaving badly etc.) it's still the feeling.

I'm disappointed in myself for not taking up the argument. Sorry.

Sadly there are a lot of narrow minded people who still wont accept that what happened that day was down to gross incompetence, and then made worse by the years of arse covering and lies.  These people simply want to go by the stereotypical "football fans are drunken lots, so its down to them".

A mate of mine was at Hillsborough when we played there a few months before it happened and he said you could see what a death trap it was.  That's before you think about the previous incidents at Hillsborough before 1989.

Probably not the right time to bring up safe standing,  but I'm all in favour of it.  However,  the blessing to come out of it is that we now have excellent stadiums, rather than the death traps fans had to frequent in the 80s.

Offline dave.woodhall

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #342 on: November 29, 2019, 10:13:25 PM »
Of everything I've read about Hillsborough, this is the most heartbreaking.


https://twitter.com/charlhennessy1/status/1200372275658285056

Offline Villan For Life

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #343 on: November 29, 2019, 10:29:54 PM »
Of everything I've read about Hillsborough, this is the most heartbreaking.


https://twitter.com/charlhennessy1/status/1200372275658285056

I’m speechless

Offline Damo70

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #344 on: November 29, 2019, 10:38:04 PM »
Of everything I've read about Hillsborough, this is the most heartbreaking.


https://twitter.com/charlhennessy1/status/1200372275658285056

I’m speechless


I am speechless too and that is pretty rare for me.