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Author Topic: Hillsborough  (Read 41721 times)

Offline AV82EC

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #210 on: June 29, 2017, 08:22:02 AM »
I'm glad Mackrel had been bought to book. In one of David Conns excellent books about the changing face of football he did a chapter on Mackrell and I came away genuinely shocked at the attitude he displayed it really upset and annoyed me. Ever since reading it I researched more and it led to me reading the Taylor Report properly for the first time. It's amazing really the facts laid out clearly before us, hiding in plain sight and ignored by many.

Offline Richard E

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #211 on: June 29, 2017, 08:36:37 AM »
I am relieved for the families of this tragedy, that they may hopefully get some justice for there loved ones that perished on that awful day, however I do wonder how the families of the Italians who lost there lives at Heysel must be feeling today, 30 + years on and still no justice for them!

No justice for them apart from the people who served prison sentences for manslaughter?

Online dave.woodhall

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #212 on: June 29, 2017, 08:47:00 AM »
I'm glad Mackrel had been bought to book. In one of David Conns excellent books about the changing face of football he did a chapter on Mackrell and I came away genuinely shocked at the attitude he displayed it really upset and annoyed me. Ever since reading it I researched more and it led to me reading the Taylor Report properly for the first time. It's amazing really the facts laid out clearly before us, hiding in plain sight and ignored by many.

He didn't think 96 deaths were worth resigning over but the West Ham sub mistake was.

Offline Tugby Villain

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #213 on: June 29, 2017, 08:54:24 AM »
Hadn't there been a near-miss at Hillsborough before, or hadn't it failed a safety certificate? I'm sure I remember reading something like that, with the suggestion that the FA were at least party-culpable for the choice of venue.

Yes (Tottenham v Wolves in 1981 as mentioned earlier).
And yes, the safety certificate had run out some years previously, there had been "improvements" to the Lepping Lane terrace between '84 and '89 and no safety certificate had ever been signed off during or after this work(for improvements read more fences including the internal fences making it into pens which prevented the natural spreading of fans across the terrace therefore exacerbating the crush).

My son has just finished his dissertation on Safe Standing and the Hillsborough disaster, the research we did together was revealing and frightening at times.

What were his conclusions Dave?  Genuinely interested in the safe standing debate.

Offline JD

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #214 on: June 29, 2017, 09:58:02 AM »
The Chinchilla has saved me commenting on the judgement, I can't add anything to his excellent post.

Totally agree. Brilliant post Chinchilla.

Online maidstonevillain

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #215 on: June 29, 2017, 12:32:53 PM »
The coroner of the original enquiry was a bellend. Refusing to take evidence of anything that happened after 15:15 because "all victims were dead", despite massive amounts of evidence to the contrary.


Which is a bit ironic, considering one was still alive in 1993

Offline Chris Jameson

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #216 on: June 29, 2017, 12:41:24 PM »
I am relieved for the families of this tragedy, that they may hopefully get some justice for there loved ones that perished on that awful day, however I do wonder how the families of the Italians who lost there lives at Heysel must be feeling today, 30 + years on and still no justice for them!

Every. Fucking. Time.

Offline Chris Jameson

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #217 on: June 29, 2017, 12:42:40 PM »
The honours system is a load of bollocks but if they're going to have one then every single person who has fought for justice for the 96 should be given the top honours. Liverpool as a city has been magnificent.

Offline Hopadop

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #218 on: June 29, 2017, 12:42:53 PM »
He may well have been the wrong man in the wrong place at the wrong time, but he was far more than a copper making a wrong decision; he was the chief copper making a catastrophic decision because he was grossly negligent in his preparation for a major event:-

"Duckenfield admitted he had not familiarised himself in any detail with the ground’s layout or capacities of its different sections. He did not know the seven turnstiles, through which 10,100 Liverpool supporters with standing tickets had to be funnelled to gain access to the Leppings Lane terrace, opened opposite a large tunnel leading straight to the central pens, three and four. He did not even know that the police were responsible for monitoring overcrowding, nor that the police had a tactic, named after a superintendent, John Freeman, of closing the tunnel when the central pens were full, and directing supporters to the sides. He admitted his focus before the match had been on dealing with misbehaviour, and he had not considered the need to protect people from overcrowding or crushing."

If that's not gross negligence I don't know what is.  That's from this article by David Conn of The Guardian.  I would urge everyone to read it - particularly if you have any queries or doubts about the inquest.  Mr Conn lent his weight to the campaign for justice and has written extensively (and brilliantly) on the subject over the years; this is a superlative account of the tragedy and how the shameful conspiracy took root.


I don't disagree with any of that, but I think it's worth mentioning a couple of things in relation to the unlawful killing verdict. In considering gross negligence the jury had to compare Duckenfield's competence with that of other match commanders of the time. It's a hard thing to do - did Hillsborough not happen under other commanders' watches because they were more competent, or did they just not get found out? The point about his focus being on public order rather than safety is well made, but I'd bet it was an attitude common among his peers and others in authority. Why else were the fences there?

I found it interesting that having returned unanimous verdicts on the 13 other questions, the nine remaining jurors split on this one. I can understand why the two dissenters did so, particularly as the standard of proof required for this question alone was that they were sure.

Finally (Joshua Rozenberg made these points a day or two ago) I don't understand why the jury were asked the unlawful killing question at all. It's very unusual for an inquest to proceed ahead of a criminal case - it's not a trial itself and can obviously prejudice one. The risk was overwhelming and given the amount of approval the verdicts have received, from the Prime Minister down, it's hard to argue otherwise. So why take it given the investigations we are told are ongoing? There'll rightly be an application to stay any criminal trial as an abuse of process as a result.

And specifically, the Coroners and Justice Act 2009 states that:

(2)A determination under subsection (1)(a) may not be framed in such a way as to appear to determine any question of—

(a)criminal liability on the part of a named person

Which Question 6 clearly did. I don't know how that circle was squared.

I'm not at all surprised by the decision to prosecute, but I'd be a lot more confident of justice being done in Duckenfield's case if he hadn't already been 'convicted' by the inquest jury.

Unless I've missed something (quite possible) there could and should be an application on his behalf to stay as an abuse of process and it could and should be successful. I'd be surprised if it was though.

Offline PeterWithesShin

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #219 on: June 29, 2017, 12:53:52 PM »
I am relieved for the families of this tragedy, that they may hopefully get some justice for there loved ones that perished on that awful day, however I do wonder how the families of the Italians who lost there lives at Heysel must be feeling today, 30 + years on and still no justice for them!

What police and government cover up took place over Heysel?

Offline Richard E

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #220 on: June 29, 2017, 01:32:10 PM »
Hopadop- I think you're right that an abuse of process application won't succeed because no Judge would dare grant it. Do you think the previous promise of no jail strengthens the application?

Offline AV82EC

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #221 on: June 29, 2017, 06:29:30 PM »
I'm glad Mackrel had been bought to book. In one of David Conns excellent books about the changing face of football he did a chapter on Mackrell and I came away genuinely shocked at the attitude he displayed it really upset and annoyed me. Ever since reading it I researched more and it led to me reading the Taylor Report properly for the first time. It's amazing really the facts laid out clearly before us, hiding in plain sight and ignored by many.

He didn't think 96 deaths were worth resigning over but the West Ham sub mistake was.

That was it, quite staggering. What a grade A copper bottomed wanker.

Online dave.woodhall

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #222 on: June 29, 2017, 07:44:21 PM »
I am relieved for the families of this tragedy, that they may hopefully get some justice for there loved ones that perished on that awful day, however I do wonder how the families of the Italians who lost there lives at Heysel must be feeling today, 30 + years on and still no justice for them!

Every. Fucking. Time.

It's all they have left now the lies have been nailed.

Online TopDeck113

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #223 on: June 29, 2017, 08:05:11 PM »
As much as I'm pleased that criminal prosecutions are being made, the old adage of justice delayed is justice denied sprung immediately to my mind.   As Chinchilla so eloquently put it, this appalling sequence of events, and the conspiracy on the part of the authorities, is a sordid soiling of the very concept of justice.   

Offline Damo70

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #224 on: June 30, 2017, 12:18:32 AM »
As for Heysel, in my opinion two massive European clubs with massive travelling support were put into a crumbling stadium with little segregation and little expertise when it came to security.

 


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