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Author Topic: Hillsborough  (Read 41729 times)

Offline Nev

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #90 on: April 27, 2016, 03:12:43 PM »


But we should not forget the circumstances which created a Police and Ambulance service focussed on public order, and not public safety.

It would be  myopic to focus on the performance of the Police and Ambulance service of the day. The FA’s response to the corrosive effects of hooliganism over 25 years was pathetic and negligent. All Clubs failed to place public safety on an equal footing with public order. The FA were criminally negligent in allowing an FA Cup semi- final to be held at Hillsborough when it didn’t hold a valid safety certificate. Sheffield City council were criminally negligent in allowing an FA Cup semi- final to be held at Hillsborough when it didn’t hold a valid safety certificate. Sheffield  Wednesday were criminally negligent in allowing an FA Cup semi- final to be held at Hillsborough when it didn’t hold a valid safety certificate. LFC , the Football League and the FA were negligent in not holding a full enquiry into the Heysel Disaster, when so many  common denominators ( poor ground, fencing, poor policing, poor planning) existed.

The capacity of the police, and fans, to behave, badly is still there, but ground and crowd safety is immeasurably better. RIP the 96.


This. What has virtually been conveniently overlooked during all this sorry saga is the fact that no match of any description should have been scheduled to have been played at Hillsborough on that date as there was no safety certificate in force in respect of the ground. Those in charge at the FA and those below them should shoulder just as much blame as others.

Indeed, such was the culture at the time. One only has to look at the chained fire exit doors at Valley Parade to see a terrifying example just a few years before, where loss of revenue came higher on the list of priorities than loss of life

We now have a more rigorous H&S approach by way of a reaction to these types of events, which means that they are mercifully less common. But as the memory fades, then complacency can take the place of concern and H&S becomes viewed as a "pain in the arse" and something that restricts business, where one or two over-zealous rulings become an exagerated view of the norm, and where the claim culture forces commerce to protect itself against endless claims of negligence. This all costs money and now we see where the motivation to depart the EU and their "restrictive" legislation comes from for some, the need to be free of such red tape handed down by the faceless bureaucrats of Brussels in order to increase profits.


In the early days of the coaliton I recall talk of a "Great Repeal" bill to sweep away unneccesary rules and red tape but this seems to have been quietly dropped, perhaps because most regulation, particularly when considering H&S, was bought in as a reaction to accidents and incidents and when scrutinised is perfectly justifiable.

H&S is a huge part of my job and can be a major frustration at times, but when you look at the events at Valley Parade, Hillsborough and countless other incidents, it's not really that much of a burden at all.

Offline UK Redsox

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #91 on: April 27, 2016, 03:25:35 PM »
It's worth watching McKenzie getting doorstepped yesterday on C4 news. There's probably a link to to it somewhere. He's usually so keen to open his mouth...

Is that where a reporter confronts him as he's going in a shop? I caught a bit of that where he was implying he was also a victim somehow as he printed what he was told on good authority and felt he was somehow being used. What a massive c*nt.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/the-sun-kelvin-mackenzie-hillsborough-inquiry-verdict-police-disgrace_uk_57208681e4b06bf544e0f0a7?utm_hp_ref=uk

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/hillsborough-disaster-kelvin-mackenzie-apologises-for-hurt-caused-by-the-sun-s-1989-front-page-a7003031.html
« Last Edit: April 27, 2016, 03:47:17 PM by UK Redsox »

Offline garyfouroaks

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #92 on: April 27, 2016, 05:06:37 PM »
He may well have been the wrong man in the wrong place at the wrong time, but he was far more than a copper making a wrong decision; he was the chief copper making a catastrophic decision because he was grossly negligent in his preparation for a major event:-

"Duckenfield admitted he had not familiarised himself in any detail with the ground’s layout or capacities of its different sections. He did not know the seven turnstiles, through which 10,100 Liverpool supporters with standing tickets had to be funnelled to gain access to the Leppings Lane terrace, opened opposite a large tunnel leading straight to the central pens, three and four. He did not even know that the police were responsible for monitoring overcrowding, nor that the police had a tactic, named after a superintendent, John Freeman, of closing the tunnel when the central pens were full, and directing supporters to the sides. He admitted his focus before the match had been on dealing with misbehaviour, and he had not considered the need to protect people from overcrowding or crushing."

If that's not gross negligence I don't know what is.  That's from this article by David Conn of The Guardian.  I would urge everyone to read it - particularly if you have any queries or doubts about the inquest.  Mr Conn lent his weight to the campaign for justice and has written extensively (and brilliantly) on the subject over the years; this is a superlative account of the tragedy and how the shameful conspiracy took root.

It looks like a craven dereliction of duty, doesn’t it?

I would be interested to hear from the match day commanders at other grounds for similar events. Was this arrogant, complacent, and lazy? Or was there a sense that if you kept rival fans apart, penned in, with coppers and dogs to deter invaders, not much could go wrong?
It was also Sheffield Wednesday’s ground, their turnstile operators, and match day staff. It never was the Police’s job to “show customers to their seats”. Where was their plan to fill the four pens safely? Or was there never any plan like there wasn’t a safety certificate? If not, why not?

It strikes me that Sheff Wed did nothing for their fee other than provide an unlicensed ground.

Offline ez

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #93 on: April 27, 2016, 05:20:31 PM »
96 people unlawfully killed and it's covered up for 27 years. It really is shocking.

Offline Chris Jameson

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #94 on: April 27, 2016, 05:43:02 PM »
Have the FA explained why the semi final was held at a ground where the safety certificate was out of date?

Online Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #95 on: April 27, 2016, 06:15:02 PM »
Have the FA explained why the semi final was held at a ground where the safety certificate was out of date?

The FA had stopped using Hillsborough as a semi-final venue in 1981 after a serious crush (38 injured) during a match between Tottenham  and Wolves, but reinstated it in 1987. Despite a series of modifications to the ground and to the terracing at the Leppings Lane end, no new safety certificates were issued.

Offline IAmTheOneIanOlney

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #96 on: April 27, 2016, 06:30:01 PM »
I read this earlier, about the Sun blackmailing one of the families. It is just horrific:

"They were angered by the deception used to obtain Lee's school photograph. A Sun journalist had called at the family home and was persistent in his request of a photograph of Lee. They were reluctant to respond to the request but he stated that without a "good" photograph of Lee, the paper would have to use the one taken on the pitch. To prevent the publication of the photograph of Lee's death, they provided a school photograph only to find that the Sun used both and gave the explicit photograph prominence."

Online dave.woodhall

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #97 on: April 27, 2016, 06:34:14 PM »
Have the FA explained why the semi final was held at a ground where the safety certificate was out of date?

The FA had stopped using Hillsborough as a semi-final venue in 1981 after a serious crush (38 injured) during a match between Tottenham  and Wolves, but reinstated it in 1987. Despite a series of modifications to the ground and to the terracing at the Leppings Lane end, no new safety certificates were issued.

Sheffield Wednesday secretary Graham Mackrell didn't resign after Hillsborough. He did resign as West Ham secretary after the Manny Omoyinmi League Cup cock-up.  Nice to know his sense of priorities.

Offline andrew08

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #98 on: April 27, 2016, 07:34:41 PM »
Villa were ahead of the game back then a little bit with crowd control and Stewarding . Upto about 1986 ish my family were Stewards at Villa Park. From about 1978 my family were pretty much responsible for the away section in the North Stand. Most games this would mean that my Grandad, Dad, Uncles and I would stand in the empty section leaning up a stanchion watching the game and then wander up to Holte End to watch the second half. At sell out games and the Semi Finals we'd stand in front of the fences with keys in case anything went wrong, then still go up the Holte End second half. I was 15 when we won the league so had a great view of it all but in hindsight I was probably a tad young to be holding keys..

I don't know what happened to change things but at some point about 1985 we all had to undergo training, got paid for going to games and advised that watching the game wasn't really the point. We quit then and became Season Ticket holders... Which I've been ever since. And Stewarding became noticeably better from that point on.

I'm afraid to say that post Hillsborough my family were very much in agreement that Liverpool fans behaviour would have had some bearing on what happened based on what we experienced with them. They always had more sections of terrace open than what the turnstile count said... They just had this thing for 'bunking in'. Obviously over the years my view has changed but like many events in history it sometimes makes sense to have an understanding of feelings at the time.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2016, 07:36:59 PM by andrew08 »

Offline TopDeck113

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #99 on: April 27, 2016, 08:54:56 PM »
My brother was a student at Preston during the mid 80s and got a job as a steward at Deepdale to earn extra cash. The older guys who basically wanted to watch PNE for free took the easy positions and got my brother and the other younger ones to deal with either the away fans or where the less savoury elements of the home support congregated.  I think it would be fair to say that inexperienced/poorly trained stewarding was pretty universal in those days.

Offline Villa in Denmark

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #100 on: April 27, 2016, 09:48:08 PM »
Have the FA explained why the semi final was held at a ground where the safety certificate was out of date?

You've got more chance of Graham Kelly, taking a bungee of the Wembley Arch than uttering a word other than self defence on this.

Offline Villa in Denmark

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #101 on: April 27, 2016, 09:55:15 PM »
As a complete aside, the verdicts were headline news over here, and I was actually surprised and impressed at how much, particularly TV2 had gone into the background and politics around Hillsborough and understood that it wasn't just a one off that day, that was just the day football fans ran out of luck and Liverpool caught the short straw.

They'd also got how, to the government and the FA, football fans were a problem to be corralled into pens and treated like cattle.

Offline Chris Jameson

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #102 on: April 27, 2016, 10:03:46 PM »
Watched the vigil this evening, very moving and powerful, the city of Liverpool has every right to feel proud.

Offline tomd2103

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #103 on: April 28, 2016, 08:13:33 AM »
Have the FA explained why the semi final was held at a ground where the safety certificate was out of date?

You've got more chance of Graham Kelly, taking a bungee of the Wembley Arch than uttering a word other than self defence on this.

They have been very quiet on the issue haven't they, as have Sheffield Wednesday. 

Offline JD

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #104 on: April 28, 2016, 08:14:09 AM »
Watched the vigil this evening, very moving and powerful, the city of Liverpool has every right to feel proud.

It certainly does and it brought a tear to my eyes as well. Very moving.

 


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