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Author Topic: Hillsborough  (Read 41727 times)

Offline Chinchilla Bathhouse

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #75 on: April 27, 2016, 12:55:11 AM »
He may well have been the wrong man in the wrong place at the wrong time, but he was far more than a copper making a wrong decision; he was the chief copper making a catastrophic decision because he was grossly negligent in his preparation for a major event:-

"Duckenfield admitted he had not familiarised himself in any detail with the ground’s layout or capacities of its different sections. He did not know the seven turnstiles, through which 10,100 Liverpool supporters with standing tickets had to be funnelled to gain access to the Leppings Lane terrace, opened opposite a large tunnel leading straight to the central pens, three and four. He did not even know that the police were responsible for monitoring overcrowding, nor that the police had a tactic, named after a superintendent, John Freeman, of closing the tunnel when the central pens were full, and directing supporters to the sides. He admitted his focus before the match had been on dealing with misbehaviour, and he had not considered the need to protect people from overcrowding or crushing."

If that's not gross negligence I don't know what is.  That's from this article by David Conn of The Guardian.  I would urge everyone to read it - particularly if you have any queries or doubts about the inquest.  Mr Conn lent his weight to the campaign for justice and has written extensively (and brilliantly) on the subject over the years; this is a superlative account of the tragedy and how the shameful conspiracy took root.

Offline jimmygreen

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #76 on: April 27, 2016, 01:23:39 AM »
The Guardian also produced this piece - it's hard watching but between 3 - 6 minutes in puts to bed the ticketless and drunken idea. How would anyone even know? It's just a big, big crowd hopelessly being corralled into an inadequate space, with archaic processing and woeful control. Seven turnstiles... It looks like any big crowd did back then. It's been said about the WH game and outside the Tilton in 87 on here before. It could have been anyone at the time.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/video/2016/apr/26/hillsborough-inquiry-anatomy-of-a-disaster-video?CMP=share_btn_tw

Offline Dave Cooper please

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #77 on: April 27, 2016, 02:05:57 AM »
The Guardian also produced this piece - it's hard watching but between 3 - 6 minutes in puts to bed the ticketless and drunken idea. How would anyone even know? It's just a big, big crowd hopelessly being corralled into an inadequate space, with archaic processing and woeful control. Seven turnstiles... It looks like any big crowd did back then. It's been said about the WH game and outside the Tilton in 87 on here before. It could have been anyone at the time.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/video/2016/apr/26/hillsborough-inquiry-anatomy-of-a-disaster-video?CMP=share_btn_tw

That should put paid to ant doubts about how it happened, an outstanding bit of journalism.

Offline ACVilla

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #78 on: April 27, 2016, 06:23:40 AM »
I know The Sun acted disgracefully. What did The Times do? Surely nothing as bad as "The Truth"?
It's The Sun's sister paper, owned by News International. This page here shows all of today's front pages, it's an astonishing kick in the teeth for the families:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-36147007

Offline Nev

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #79 on: April 27, 2016, 07:14:41 AM »
I know The Sun acted disgracefully. What did The Times do? Surely nothing as bad as "The Truth"?
It's The Sun's sister paper, owned by News International. This page here shows all of today's front pages, it's an astonishing kick in the teeth for the families:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-36147007

It's exactly what I expected of any organisation under the guidance of Murdoch.

Whats galls me is that the BBC still give airtime to such an individual as McKenzie through regular appearences on Question Time, I know there are a few guests who maybe a bit suspect in the credibility stakes but to have such an odious character on the panel is something you would expect of rating chasers such as 5 and ITV.

Online Chico Hamilton III

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #80 on: April 27, 2016, 08:51:02 AM »
It's worth watching McKenzie getting doorstepped yesterday on C4 news. There's probably a link to to it somewhere. He's usually so keen to open his mouth...

Offline Tom_Mc9?

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #81 on: April 27, 2016, 09:29:45 AM »
A man on Radio WM still saying that the fans are to blame because of 'the riot outside' and they 'trampled the victims to death' instead of picking them up. The mind boggles. 

Offline garyfouroaks

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #82 on: April 27, 2016, 11:28:34 AM »


As the detail emerged of the police operation that day, the toxic combination of avoidable factors blinked as they emerged into broad daylight. Yes there were mitigating factors, and yes there were many other contributing factors, as the majority verdict suggested, but the tipping point for unlawful killing had been passed.


Anyone who has experienced the loss of someone close, or seen those who have, will know that reactions vary. The media have been full of speculation of prosecutions and “making people pay”. That sense is not universal. No-one save the most junior officer and official is still working. No-one intended to kill that day. Unlawful killing is one thing, criminal negligence is another. The lackadaisical approach of Duckenfield comes pretty close to it though (David Conn article in The Guardian)- would any of us accept such disregard for responsibility if he was the pilot of our plane?

Whether extending the anguish  has sufficient likely reward is debateable. My own view is that it is the falsification of evidence offences that should be put on trial, the rest were found wanting on the day – a day when few of us would have wanted to be put to the test.

And then there are those who are never mentioned. Those that entered an already packed terrace . It was what you did, we all did it back then. The police and the ground staff  should have prevented access. They did so oblivious of the consequences, but it cannot stop them thinking of them.

What is not being widely mentioned is that the disaster was a turning point in a way that few disasters are. The Hillsborough legacy is that no-one has died at a football match in England, Scotland and Wales since, in a crowd related incident.

Unless you attended football in the 70’s and 80’s it is difficult to appreciate how much has changed.

A combination of modern stadia, intensive CCTV, numbered seating, far more season ticket holders (fewer casuals, more identifiable supporters), far better communications between officials inside and outside the grounds and to police control centres, no mass standing terraces, computerised turnstiles, far better training for police, stewards ( who know the grounds,) and medical staff, enforced banning orders on serial troublemakers, specific disaster/emergency  plans,  the removal   of perimeter and lateral fencing, the gentrification of the game and the increase in female support has all, in varying degrees, combined to revolutionised match going safety.

It is difficult to see what new lessons can be learned, as it strikes me that not only have those lessons been learned, but that remedies and solutions have all been implemented remarkably successfully.

The first paradox of Hillsborough is that it would have been impossible to have had the reasoned, balanced judgement of events at the time, the toxicity of football, and football supporters was too great. But now, almost thirty years later, it is difficult to objectively assess the cultural mores of the day. But the inquest has done a remarkable job at overcoming that problem.

The second paradox of Hillsborough is that it was a non-hooligan related disaster caused by football hooliganism. The police, after twenty five years of policing terrace battles, were geared up for that, not crowd safety, which at the time didn’t seem a significant concern of a sizeable core of supporters, or the authorities who showed virtually no concern for crowd safety whatsoever. Equally the ambulance service was geared to deal with the consequences of the boot, fist and bottle, not a crowd disaster.

The third paradox is that while the overwhelming majority of grounds have either been rebuilt, or relocated and built new, the Leppings Lane End remains largely unchanged, and LFC has been amongst the most sluggish to modernise their ground.

It is true that terracing itself was not to blame for the Hillsborough disaster. It is not true to say that seats would have made no difference. Numbered seats distribute fans equally. At Hillsborough, fans were free to go where they wished amongst the four pens with deadly consequences. If Hillsborough had offered numbered seating, the fans, once through the opened gate, would have naturally, and evenly, dispersed between the four pens.

The professionalism of the Police on this occasion fell astonishingly short of what could reasonably have been expected, the unlawful killing verdict is the right one. The subsequent cover-up was criminal, and in my view more serious than the circumstances of the immediate disaster itself. The police didn’t intend to kill supporters, gates had been opened at football before to relieve crushes without major incident. But perverting the course of justice with fabricated allegations and evidence is wrong, and they knew it. That was done in the cold light of day, not in the heat of the moment.

But we should not forget the circumstances which created a Police and Ambulance service focussed on public order, and not public safety.

It would be  myopic to focus on the performance of the Police and Ambulance service of the day. The FA’s response to the corrosive effects of hooliganism over 25 years was pathetic and negligent. All Clubs failed to place public safety on an equal footing with public order. The FA were criminally negligent in allowing an FA Cup semi- final to be held at Hillsborough when it didn’t hold a valid safety certificate. Sheffield City council were criminally negligent in allowing an FA Cup semi- final to be held at Hillsborough when it didn’t hold a valid safety certificate. Sheffield  Wednesday were criminally negligent in allowing an FA Cup semi- final to be held at Hillsborough when it didn’t hold a valid safety certificate. LFC , the Football League and the FA were negligent in not holding a full enquiry into the Heysel Disaster, when so many  common denominators ( poor ground, fencing, poor policing, poor planning) existed.

The capacity of the police, and fans, to behave, badly is still there, but ground and crowd safety is immeasurably better. RIP the 96.

Offline Chris Jameson

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #83 on: April 27, 2016, 11:31:58 AM »
It's worth watching McKenzie getting doorstepped yesterday on C4 news. There's probably a link to to it somewhere. He's usually so keen to open his mouth...

Is that where a reporter confronts him as he's going in a shop? I caught a bit of that where he was implying he was also a victim somehow as he printed what he was told on good authority and felt he was somehow being used. What a massive c*nt.

Offline Lucky Eddie

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #84 on: April 27, 2016, 12:05:35 PM »
It's worth watching McKenzie getting doorstepped yesterday on C4 news. There's probably a link to to it somewhere. He's usually so keen to open his mouth...

The arrogance of the man is unbelievable. These people consider themselves above an apology.

To imply that he's just another victim is beyond contempt.

Is that where a reporter confronts him as he's going in a shop? I caught a bit of that where he was implying he was also a victim somehow as he printed what he was told on good authority and felt he was somehow being used. What a massive c*nt.

Offline fredm

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #85 on: April 27, 2016, 12:09:14 PM »


But we should not forget the circumstances which created a Police and Ambulance service focussed on public order, and not public safety.

It would be  myopic to focus on the performance of the Police and Ambulance service of the day. The FA’s response to the corrosive effects of hooliganism over 25 years was pathetic and negligent. All Clubs failed to place public safety on an equal footing with public order. The FA were criminally negligent in allowing an FA Cup semi- final to be held at Hillsborough when it didn’t hold a valid safety certificate. Sheffield City council were criminally negligent in allowing an FA Cup semi- final to be held at Hillsborough when it didn’t hold a valid safety certificate. Sheffield  Wednesday were criminally negligent in allowing an FA Cup semi- final to be held at Hillsborough when it didn’t hold a valid safety certificate. LFC , the Football League and the FA were negligent in not holding a full enquiry into the Heysel Disaster, when so many  common denominators ( poor ground, fencing, poor policing, poor planning) existed.

The capacity of the police, and fans, to behave, badly is still there, but ground and crowd safety is immeasurably better. RIP the 96.


This. What has virtually been conveniently overlooked during all this sorry saga is the fact that no match of any description should have been scheduled to have been played at Hillsborough on that date as there was no safety certificate in force in respect of the ground. Those in charge at the FA and those below them should shoulder just as much blame as others.

Online Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #86 on: April 27, 2016, 12:17:21 PM »
McKenzie these days portraying himself as a victim is breathtaking in the extreme. The media was fed a pack of lies by The Police in the days following the disaster. A lot of papers were taken in and reported what was said but it was only The Sun with its now infamous `The Truth`front page that in their best traditions of journalism went for the jugular of football fans.

The Police lied and lied and lied again, but it was McKenzie who signed off the story in the form it was presented and stuck to it for many years after until forced into a grovelling apology.

Now he chooses to try and shift any responsibility entirely from himself once again.  The truth is The Sun has always represented the basest and worst form of the nasty sensationalist headlines in order to sell papers. Should McKenzie be blamed for this ? Again, he would probably say that's not his fault. He would then probably say blame the people who buy our papers then because this is the sort of trash they want to read. Mckenzie is just a victim of having to pander to a populist readership. But even then, it was his responsibility that such reporting was signed off to print. Was that Mckenzies fault then ? No of course not, he was just a victim of Murdoch giving him the job in the first place !   

 
« Last Edit: April 27, 2016, 12:23:30 PM by Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air »

Offline Nev

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #87 on: April 27, 2016, 12:19:39 PM »
It's worth watching McKenzie getting doorstepped yesterday on C4 news. There's probably a link to to it somewhere. He's usually so keen to open his mouth...

Is that where a reporter confronts him as he's going in a shop? I caught a bit of that where he was implying he was also a victim somehow as he printed what he was told on good authority and felt he was somehow being used. What a massive c*nt.

He printed it because he believed or at the very least, wanted to believe that it was the truth. It fitted the then narative regarding football supporters and fitted the wider stereotype that still exists today about a certain section of society: feckless, lazy and savage. Immigrants, the unemployed, those on benefits, "chavs". The attack on football supporters by then then Government would have continued unabated were it not for a working class kid from Newcastle bursting into tears on national TV. The tide turned then, ironically the same people who sought to demonise Football and it's supporters then saw an opprtunity to make a lot of money, and they have, by the bucketload.

I don't think that McKenzie really thinks any different despite the events of yesterday, or for that matter Boris Johnson, Ingham or Jeremy Hunt. The worrying thing is that one of the aforementioned could be PM by the end of the year.

Online Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #88 on: April 27, 2016, 01:06:25 PM »
I don't think that McKenzie really thinks any different despite the events of yesterday, or for that matter Boris Johnson, Ingham or Jeremy Hunt.

Letter from Sir Bernard Ingham to Graham Skinner in December 30, 1996

"Thank you for your letter of December 11. I believe that there would have been no Hillsborough disaster if tanked-up yobs had not turned up in very large numbers to try to force their way into the ground.

I visited Hillsborough the day after the disaster and I know what I learned then. I have never denied that the police may have made mistakes, but I firmly believe that the Lord Chief Justice whitewashed the real culprits and I said so from the moment I read his report.

I have not seen the McGovern film. But I am long enough in the tooth to know that TV films should never be accepted as evidence. But let us suppose there is something in the film – for example, the “evidence” that the pens were already full when the gates were opened. W

What, then were all those people doing trying to get into the ground? I have never, of course, said where they came from because I do not know.

I have no intention of apologising for my views which are sincerely held on the basis of what I heard first hand at Hillsborough. I have, however, one suggestion to make: for its own good, Liverpool – with the Heysel disaster in the background – should shut up about Hillsborough.

“Nothing can now bring back those who died – innocent people who, by virtue of being in the ground early, had their lives crushed out of them by a mob surging in late.

To go on about it serves only to confirm in many people’s minds that Liverpool has a very bad conscience about soccer disasters. I think it a disgrace to the public service that South Yorkshire policemen have won the right to compensation.

But it will do Liverpool no good whatsoever in the eyes of the nation if, egged on by ambulance-chasing lawyers, those who saw their relatives killed at Hillsborough now sue for compensation for the “trauma”. Is the pain of losing a relative to be soothed away by a fat cheque?

Take my advice, Mr Skinner: least said, soonest mended for Liverpool."

Sir Bernard Ingham 26th April 2016.

Margaret Thatcher's former chief press secretary Sir Bernard Ingham once again refused to apologise for blaming Liverpool FC fans for the Hillsborough disaster.

He was speaking at the door of his Surrey home after a Warrington jury ruled 96 Liverpool fans were unlawfully killed at Hillsborough.

The jury also concluded Liverpool fans played no part in causing the disaster.

Sir Bernard told The Mirror he was not willing to talk about the verdicts returned after a two-year hearing.

And he said he had "nothing to say" when asked if he would be apologising for branding Liverpool fans "tanked up yobs".

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/bernard-ingham-still-refuses-say-11244412

Offline UK Redsox

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Re: Hillsborough
« Reply #89 on: April 27, 2016, 02:40:49 PM »
Blimey, I thought he was dead.

Just checked the Wiki and he's a lot younger than I thought he'd be. Must have been relatively young compared to the others around Thatch

 


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