AGM - Protest

[saunders_heroes]

The teams above us could easily go on a losing streak of 3, 4 games, take your pick, so it's not beyond reality to suggest a couple of wins could see us right back in the mix again.

[Villa in Denmark]

Tom, I believe that for the 2013/14 season we lost £3.9m. The wage bill has continued to drop since then and the turnover has continued to rise so i'd expect that we currently run at a profit not a loss, albeit a small one.

So we're not talking massive losses on the scale of Bolton then?  Again, I'm no financial expert, but surely there is some wriggle room to bring some players in?

Only because the debts we have racked up have been converted to equity by Lerner.  Any actual write off is now dependent on a sales price.

It's basically the same deal as the Bolton owner has offered to a potential buyer, just that Lerner has done it up front, the Bolton guy was waiting to see if someone would take the club as was and repay the debts.  All swings and roundabouts unless there's some clever tax wheeze in having debt repaid v a higher sales price.

Only some of them. The last accounts showed we still owed Lerner over 80 million including loan interest.

I might be wrong here, but those accounts were issued last spring and covered the 2013/14 season.

The last trench of debt to equity conversion was done in December 2014, so will first be reflected in the coming set of accounts.

[AVH87]

Tom, I believe that for the 2013/14 season we lost £3.9m. The wage bill has continued to drop since then and the turnover has continued to rise so i'd expect that we currently run at a profit not a loss, albeit a small one.

So we're not talking massive losses on the scale of Bolton then?  Again, I'm no financial expert, but surely there is some wriggle room to bring some players in?

Only because the debts we have racked up have been converted to equity by Lerner.  Any actual write off is now dependent on a sales price.

It's basically the same deal as the Bolton owner has offered to a potential buyer, just that Lerner has done it up front, the Bolton guy was waiting to see if someone would take the club as was and repay the debts.  All swings and roundabouts unless there's some clever tax wheeze in having debt repaid v a higher sales price.

Only some of them. The last accounts showed we still owed Lerner over 80 million including loan interest.

I might be wrong here, but those accounts were issued last spring and covered the 2013/14 season.

The last trench of debt to equity conversion was done in December 2014, so will first be reflected in the coming set of accounts.

Hope those dates tie in, so you expect the next set of accounts, which I think are due out soon, to show we don't owe Lerner/his parent company a penny?

[Malandro]

Spent too much money, not integrated foreign players, falling behind other clubs on the business side.

I find that very depressing to read, as I think they still miss the point.

Hiring the right football manager has been the problem - a club in crisis? Hire a manager with a track record to galvanise/stabilise the team.

[Villa in Denmark]

Tom, I believe that for the 2013/14 season we lost £3.9m. The wage bill has continued to drop since then and the turnover has continued to rise so i'd expect that we currently run at a profit not a loss, albeit a small one.

So we're not talking massive losses on the scale of Bolton then?  Again, I'm no financial expert, but surely there is some wriggle room to bring some players in?

Only because the debts we have racked up have been converted to equity by Lerner.  Any actual write off is now dependent on a sales price.

It's basically the same deal as the Bolton owner has offered to a potential buyer, just that Lerner has done it up front, the Bolton guy was waiting to see if someone would take the club as was and repay the debts.  All swings and roundabouts unless there's some clever tax wheeze in having debt repaid v a higher sales price.

Only some of them. The last accounts showed we still owed Lerner over 80 million including loan interest.

I might be wrong here, but those accounts were issued last spring and covered the 2013/14 season.

The last trench of debt to equity conversion was done in December 2014, so will first be reflected in the coming set of accounts.

Hope those dates tie in, so you expect the next set of accounts, which I think are due out soon, to show we don't owe Lerner/his parent company a penny?

Pretty much yes. At that last debt conversion, there was some pretty blunt statement about this was the last £90M outstanding. Around the same time there was something from Robin Russell along the lines of the club being pretty much self sufficient for day to day operations.

[AVH87]

Pretty much yes. At that last debt conversion, there was some pretty blunt statement about this was the last £90M outstanding. Around the same time there was something from Robin Russell along the lines of the club being pretty much self sufficient for day to day operations.

Just done some digging and this Guardian article http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/apr/29/premier-league-finances-club-by-club from April 2015 states that 'Lerner wrote off £90m loans, leaving £86m still owed to him'. I'm not convinced there has been any further conversion of loans to equity after the 90m mentioned here, I thought that was part of the reason we've been having problems selling the club?

[tomd2103]

Spent too much money, not integrated foreign players, falling behind other clubs on the business side.

I find that very depressing to read, as I think they still miss the point.

Hiring the right football manager has been the problem - a club in crisis? Hire a manager with a track record to galvanise/stabilise the team.

Failure to properly accept the seriousness of the situation we have been in for a number of years now and remedy it with a manager proven in those type of situations has been the problem. 

[aj2k77]

Tom, I believe that for the 2013/14 season we lost £3.9m. The wage bill has continued to drop since then and the turnover has continued to rise so i'd expect that we currently run at a profit not a loss, albeit a small one.

Which would probably equate to the net spend in the last transfer window, with a bit left for a rainy day (this window).

The question is, do you spend it now on a couple of better quality players (if available) or save it for more lesser quality players better suited to get us out of the Championship. Do you gamble now at high risk of not saving us from relegation or go for the lower risk at the end of the season.

I don't know as I do not how it all pans out regarding players wages, contracts, cash in hand. It would be easy for me to say spend £20m on players but I do not know what financial effect that would have on us. If I was to ignore the latter point it would be called 'taking a blinkered view '. Football fans are very good at that.

No because the season we made a £3.9m loss we spent around £20m on players net in the summer. So since then, wages have lowered, net spending has lowered and turnover has risen.

[aj2k77]

Tom, I believe that for the 2013/14 season we lost £3.9m. The wage bill has continued to drop since then and the turnover has continued to rise so i'd expect that we currently run at a profit not a loss, albeit a small one.

As an addition, to show where we are right now

2014/15  Revenue E148.8m Wages £65.1m
2013/14  Revenue E133.0m Wages £69.3m  Posted a loss of £3.9m

In 2009/10 our revenue was 13m euros higher than Evertons, fast forward to last season and our revenue was now 17m euros lower than Evertons. A 30m Euro swing, showing how poorly we've done behind the scenes.

No doubt we have been poor behind the scenes (stand up a certain Paul Faulkner who seems to have been forgotten in all this), but competition money factor into that as well though wouldn't it?  They have finished higher in the league than us and have featured in European competition.

Yes for sure, but not £30m euros worth. Everton share a city with one of the most famous clubs in the world and are within a short range of the two Manchester clubs. We really should not be that far behind turnover wise than Everton with the broad, primarily uncontested landscape we should be growing in.

[PeterWithesShin]

In both of the last 2 seasons Everton received approx £12.5m more than us in PL prize money.

[passport1]

In both of the last 2 seasons Everton received approx £12.5m more than us in PL prize money.

Which begs the question are we a football club with a business attached or vice versa. The ire of fans at meetings such as last nights is probably due to their belief that we are the former and getting increasingly frustrated at the business speak they had to endure.

If we were successful on the field the business side takes care of itself as the example of Everton illustrates. Full grounds = more revenue. Higher league postions =more revenue.

[ChicagoLion]

Of course we are not already relegated, but there is no-one who can't admit that the situation RIGHT NOW is that it it more than likely that we will be. We could sign Messi and he probably couldn't save us.

Spending the kind of money it will take to get anyone who might improve us to come right now, would be suicidal, and far more likely to end up with a Bolton situation. It is not 'throwing in the towel' to say that whether we end up in The Championship, or survive, we become a more attractive destination for the type of players we will need in the summer than we are now.

Do we have the baliffs knocking on the door looking to take away the furniture or something?
The reason we're not spending isn't because of the reasons the sly Fox comes out with, it's because the owner has washed his hands of the club. They're not protecting is for next season at all in my opinion and I don't trust them to invest sufficiently to get us back up next year either (if we go down).
What makes you so confident they're trying to secure our future?

The books are open at companies house.

We continue to be a loss making club, and Lerner has had to continue to put his own money in to prop us up.

If we go down, we will lose a lot of revenue, we cannot afford to be giving out more daft contracts. That is not to say we will not spend, but that it is foolish at this stage to start waving mega bucks under the noses of the average mercenaries looking for a last big payday. We have just nearly got to the end of clearing those kind of dickheads out.

If we can get the right players at the right price, I believe we will.

As for buying Championship players now - what if the miracle does happen? I think they are dead right to believe that the summer is a better time for us to spend. We will know what we are buying for, & how much money we have, as well as being more attractive to our potential targets.

I'm sure there are plenty on here who have far more knowledge than me of how finances work, so could someone please explain how we are still a loss making club?  The wage bill must have reduced dramatically over the past few years, so where is the rest of the money going?  What level of losses are we talking about?

Expences are higher than revenues it was only 3.9 million May 2014 we lost 51.8 million the year before which was when the hit was taken on a lot of player contracts. I guess we will break even small loss 2015.

[Toronto Villa]

There's such huge irony in us finally getting out of the first financial mess to be relegated and not now enjoy fully the benefits afforded to a PL club.

[aj2k77]

In both of the last 2 seasons Everton received approx £12.5m more than us in PL prize money.

So that leaves us with around a £10m shortfall compared to Evertons turnover. More surprising is a complete nothing club like Southampton now have a higher turnover than us.

[tomd2103]

In both of the last 2 seasons Everton received approx £12.5m more than us in PL prize money.

Which begs the question are we a football club with a business attached or vice versa. The ire of fans at meetings such as last nights is probably due to their belief that we are the former and getting increasingly frustrated at the business speak they had to endure.

If we were successful on the field the business side takes care of itself as the example of Everton illustrates. Full grounds = more revenue. Higher league postions =more revenue.

I think the latter is becoming more important than the former.