International Rugby

[PaulWinch again]

Aside from the one game plan issue. I think this push to make more “hybrid” players with the idea of bringing depth, is watering down the specialist skill focus.

[Dante Lavelli]

Wow England are a shambles.  Accuracy at the basics has plummeted and we’ve never been dynamic when the play is broken.

Sorry, and well done Italy. Fully deserved.

Weird how the tactics and entertainment in the premiership is now completely at odds with the international team.

I predict a thrashing in Paris and new guy in for the autumn internationals.

[paul_e]

Aside from the one game plan issue. I think this push to make more “hybrid” players with the idea of bringing depth, is watering down the specialist skill focus.

The odd one is the insistence on trying to turn one of the best wingers on the planet into a middling centre who barely gets ball in hand. I'm also not a fan of how he's set the back row up (and that one has been a problem for a long time) with both Underhill and Earl showing today both their strengths and the limitations they bring. Earl played well but, as with picking Spencer, if you play him at 8 you force yourself into either playing a game that suits him or him being their purely for his defensive work. Today mostly turned into the latter other than for the few minutes where we pushed a few holes at the gainline. He is a very good defensive option but if you aren't going to let him carry however he likes and deal with the consequences (i.e. build your play around supporting him) you take away most of what makes him an international player. As has been the case many times, in many sports, I think we might be a better team without him, despite him not really doing anything to deserve to be dropped.

[PaulWinch again]

I hate the Freeman centre thing.

[nigel]

You watch us go and beat the French 😂

[usav]

You watch us go and beat the French 😂

Not a chance.

Sack Borthwick

[Gareth]

You watch us go and beat the French 😂

Not a chance.

Sack Borthwick

If it takes the first to get the second to happen then get it done France

[nigel]

Now the dust has settled a bit and I’m not going to hold my breath on Borthwick resigning, or the RFU pulling the plug, but who do we fancy as a replacement?

I wouldn’t mind an Andy Farrell, Sean Edwards combo.

I know Ronan O’Gara was muted a while ago, but vaguely remember him saying he wasn’t ready for an international job.

[Dave Summers]

Now the dust has settled a bit and I’m not going to hold my breath on Borthwick resigning, or the RFU pulling the plug, but who do we fancy as a replacement?

I wouldn’t mind an Andy Farrell, Sean Edwards combo.

I know Ronan O’Gara was muted a while ago, but vaguely remember him saying he wasn’t ready for an international job.

I’ve been watching England for just under 50 years, lucky enough to have been to 80 plus internationals, but Borthwick has managed to do something no one else has got close too, I’m now finished attending. I went to the Wales game and although we won 48-7, I was texting a mate on the way back telling him how utterly bored I was with seeing us hoof it every 30 seconds and not even attempt to play any rugby. I did hope that the removal of Ford would elicit a new attacking style but obviously Lee Blackett isn’t allowed to get his fingerprints over it and we play, as Paul E said, a style akin to Leicester 2000. For the quality and ability of player we have, it’s an absolute disgrace we play in such a way.

As for a new head coach, firstly they’ve got to remove Borthwick which should be done post haste after next Saturday. After that my list, in no particular order is :

Scott Robertson
Pat Lam
Johann van Gran
Franco Smith
ROG

Or if the insist he has to be English, Phil Dowson.

A head coach for an international team should have a personality, presence and gravitas, Steve Borthwick I’m sure is a decent fella, but has none of these traits. Please change it up

[paul_e]

I'd be happy with any of those but, despite it fucking my own club over, Dowson would be my choice. We need to start playing a game that suits our players and that means adopting a lot of the way saints play. There's a bit more risk to it but the rewards are worth it and it comes with the benefit of being really good to watch.

[Dave Summers]

I can’t argue with that Paul, I love watching Saints play. I haven’t got a club side, I’m just a national side supporter so I can watch the Prem as a neutral and can thoroughly enjoy the Saints, Bristol, Bath approach to rugby or Quins and Glaws from 2/3 years back. What I’ve never ever enjoyed is how Leicester and Sale approach it, hence I’ve struggled with Ford at 10 ever since he left Bath and became this kick heavy fly half.

Obviously I want England to win, but as I stated after the Wales game, I was bored to tears sat in the stand and took no great pleasure from the win

[paul_e]

I can’t argue with that Paul, I love watching Saints play. I haven’t got a club side, I’m just a national side supporter so I can watch the Prem as a neutral and can thoroughly enjoy the Saints, Bristol, Bath approach to rugby or Quins and Glaws from 2/3 years back. What I’ve never ever enjoyed is how Leicester and Sale approach it, hence I’ve struggled with Ford at 10 ever since he left Bath and became this kick heavy fly half.

Obviously I want England to win, but as I stated after the Wales game, I was bored to tears sat in the stand and took no great pleasure from the win

Yeah, I said on here at the time that I wasn't sure if England had done well or if Wales were just really poor, I think the games since have made it very clearly the latter.

I'm slightly more pragmatic though, if our players were perfectly suited to this type of game I'd accept it, the problem is that they just aren't, we're making them look worse than they are by making them play in a way that just doesn't work with this squad. It's just muddled thinking, Steward coming in and out of the side whenever he gets scared of the high ball sums him up really, too scared about what other teams are doing when there's players like Hendy and Hodge not getting a look in and M Smith and Furbank still to consider as well. All it does it encourage teams to kick long because they know there's no real counter-attack threat so it has the opposite effect he's going for. Watch everyone else in this 6N and the fullbacks have carried back with intent and put pressure on kickers. No idea what Ojomoh has done wrong either to deserve having a winger put in the centres rather than give him more caps.

[PaulWinch again]

I really don’t like the Freeman centre thing. He’s a top class winger, it just weakens two positions.

[Gareth]

No more hybrids or square pegs / round holes…there are multiple quality players in most positions (bar 9) if one’s injured you look at the next one - you only have to look at Borthwick to say ‘dont try to be clever Steve, its not your thing’

[paul_e]

No more hybrids or square pegs / round holes…there are multiple quality players in most positions (bar 9) if one’s injured you look at the next one - you only have to look at Borthwick to say ‘dont try to be clever Steve, its not your thing’

And that is the heart of my problem with him. By all accounts he considers himself to be a tactical thinker and elite level coach and the RFU apparently consider him as one of the best 'minds' in the game but either they're all wrong or something else gets in the way and makes him default to coaching and tactics that are clearly sub-par. As I've said, I think he's just terrified of conceding points and makes every decision based on defensive stability, which means when teams figure you out not only do you have no attack but you're also able to be picked apart and teams score record points totals against you. It's a lot like Steve Bruce, people will claim that it's pragmatic and is setting things up to be better later but that only works if there aren't plenty of other people just as smart as you are but who are more focused on scoring against you than stopping you score. Townsend and Farrell are clearly 2 of those, which is why both of them have regularly beaten Borthwick with squads that are pretty comparable (but with less depth).