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Author Topic: International Rugby  (Read 405647 times)

Offline paul_e

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Re: International Rugby
« Reply #3855 on: March 21, 2023, 02:39:50 PM »
It looked a terrible decision, the Irish lad just collided with Stewart who was trying to avoid making a tackle. Absolutely no intent whatsoever other than to get out of the way. Reminded me of the Villa game against Man U in the FA Cup when our goal was chalked off for their player running into ours.

I do think there are two clear tests - intent or negligence/recklessness - if it’s neither of those things then it’s just an unfortunate incident.

I'm as far from being a rugby expert as it's possible to be, but it looks like it's getting to the point where a player who mashes his head into another player stands a fairly good chance of getting the other player sent off. Surely negligence has to be more than just failing to get out of the way?

and that's exactly why the decision was such a big problem. I apologise that this post will be a bit long...

I was fucking livid at the time but having taken a few days and read up on the laws a bit my biggest problem is that Peyper never, at any point, addressed the very first question in the protocol which is to determine if there has even been foul play.

Part one of the process is was the contact (my opinions included):

Intentional - no
Reckless - no
Avoidable - no

So straight away there's no foul play, it's a rugby incident and we all have sympathy for Keenan getting hurt but the game carries on. The only one I'd be willing to discuss for a tiny degree is reckless but I go with the definition of "actions that fail to consider the safety of himself or others" and I don't see how that can apply here. If anything Keenan is the more reckless of the 2.

If you do disagree with any of those then you start to look for mitigation and some of the examples, in the laws, are as follows:

Sudden and significant drop in height by the ball carrier
Defending player had no time to readjust
Passive action
Involuntary collision
No leading arm when close to the body

I think you can apply every single one of those which means the very worst it could be is a yellow card but truthfully that so many measures that count against it that I doubt most refs would go for more than a penalty even if they gave it as foul play.

I hope, for the sake of the sport, the red card gets overturned and there is a clarification made to ensure something like this doesn't happen again.

Offline paul_e

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Re: International Rugby
« Reply #3856 on: March 22, 2023, 12:13:52 PM »
To the surprise of literally no one Stewards red card has been rescinded.

Offline PaulWinch again

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Re: International Rugby
« Reply #3857 on: March 22, 2023, 07:29:14 PM »
Yeah but they still said it was foul play. It just wasn’t.

Offline Risso

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Re: International Rugby
« Reply #3858 on: March 22, 2023, 07:44:42 PM »
If he didn’t sort of turn sideways, he was getting a head in the bollocks, is what it looked like to me.

Offline nigel

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Re: International Rugby
« Reply #3859 on: March 22, 2023, 08:00:42 PM »
To the surprise of literally no one Stewards red card has been rescinded.

Would have been an interesting game had Steward not got the red and the Irish chap did for his ‘shoulder on head’ contact on Ludlam

Offline Rory

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Re: International Rugby
« Reply #3860 on: March 22, 2023, 08:53:16 PM »
Yeah but they still said it was foul play. It just wasn’t.

I have very little understanding of the rules, but I 'support' Ireland and I agree, think it was just an unfortunate accident.

Offline Rory

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Re: International Rugby
« Reply #3861 on: March 24, 2023, 02:31:34 AM »
Can somebody please tell me, what gets you a penalty in rugby union? I've never been able to work it out. I just kind of see the beefcake blokes sticking their heads between each others' legs, wrestling a bit, then a fat bloke will fall over and suddenly "yep, penalty, clear penalty".

Offline paul_e

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Re: International Rugby
« Reply #3862 on: March 24, 2023, 06:24:02 AM »
Can somebody please tell me, what gets you a penalty in rugby union? I've never been able to work it out. I just kind of see the beefcake blokes sticking their heads between each others' legs, wrestling a bit, then a fat bloke will fall over and suddenly "yep, penalty, clear penalty".

Most are breakdown infringements/tackle stuff:
  • Not letting go of the ball after being tackled - Penalty
  • Not letting go of the player after making a tackle - Penalty
Ruck stuff:
Once 1 player from each team other than the tackler(s) *a tackler is anyone in contact with the ball carrier when their knee or arse hits the floor* and ball carrier are there it becomes a ruck and you can only join from behind the back foot on your side, lots of pens are for side entry.
  • For a tackler to join/create a ruck they have to clearly release the player, if not - Penalty.
  • More subjective but when joining the ruck you have to try to stay on you feet, if the ref thinks you've purposely fallen it can be a penalty.
  • To use your hands in a ruck you have to come from an onside position and not join the ruck, handling the ball when you are part of the ruck is a penalty.
  • Pulling a player from the opposition into the ruck is a penalty.
  • Interfering with the scrum half (or whoever is in that role at the ruck) when you're part of the ruck is a penalty.
Maul:
A maul is formed in the same way as ruck but when the ball is in the air.
  • Offside is the same.
  • If the defensive team collapse the maul its a penalty.
  • If the attacking team collapse then they have to play the ball "immediately" or the defence get a penalty.
Scrums:
  • If it turns 90 someone will get a penalty.
  • If it collapses someone will get a penalty.
I can't be more specific because most refs are pretty inconsistent in policing the scrum so whatever I tell you will be quickly contradicted if you watch a game.
That said, what to look for is:
  • How straight the props are and where they're binding to the opponent, turning in and binding on the arm are normally a problem.
  • Also if a prop has his legs too straight it often causes a collapse and a penalty.
Also feeding is supposed to be between the front row players and technically it's a penalty if the ball goes to the 2nd row without being 'hooked' but very few refs police this at all unless someone passes direct to the 8.
Most other penalties are way to work out what they're for and commentators will be clearer on them.

Hope that helps!
« Last Edit: March 24, 2023, 08:56:33 AM by paul_e »

Offline Rory

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Re: International Rugby
« Reply #3863 on: March 24, 2023, 06:28:35 AM »
Can somebody please tell me, what gets you a penalty in rugby union? I've never been able to work it out. I just kind of see the beefcake blokes sticking their heads between each others' legs, wrestling a bit, then a fat bloke will fall over and suddenly "yep, penalty, clear penalty".

Most are breakdown infringementstackke stuff:
Not letting go of the ball after being tackled.
Not letting go of the player after making a tackle.

Ruck stuff:
Once 1 player from each team other than the tackler(s) and tacklee are there it becomes a ruck and you can only join from behind the back foot on your side, lots of pens are for side entry.
More subjective but when joining the ruck you have to try to stay on you feet, if the ref thinks you've purposely fallen it can be a penalty.
To use your hands in a ruck you have to come from an onside position and not join the ruck, handling the ball when you are part of the ruck is a penalty.
Pulling a player from the opposition into the ruck is a penalty.
Interfering with the scrum half (or whoever is in that role at the ruck) when you're part of the ruck is a penalty.

Maul:
A maul is formed in the same way as ruck but when the ball is in the air.
Offside is the same.
If the defensive team collapse the maul its a penalty.
If the attacking team collapse then they have to play the ball "immediately" or the defence get a penalty.

Scrums:
If it turns 90 someone will get a penalty.
If it collapses someone will get a penalty.
I can't be more specific because most refs are pretty inconsistent in policing the scrum so whatever I tell you will be quickly contradicted if you warch a game.
What to look for though is how straight the props are and where they're binding, turning in and binding on the arm are normally a problem. Also if a prop has his legs too straight it often causes a collapse and a penalty.

Most other penalties are wasy to work out what they're for and commentators will be clearer on them.

Hope that helps!

Wow, that's a lot, Paul!

Offline paul_e

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Re: International Rugby
« Reply #3864 on: March 24, 2023, 06:45:18 AM »
Yeah, i started thinking a few lines would enough and got carried away. Rugby looks complicated written down but in play everything makes a lot more sense.

Offline Rory

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Re: International Rugby
« Reply #3865 on: March 24, 2023, 06:49:18 AM »
Yeah, i started thinking a few lines would enough and got carried away. Rugby looks complicated written down but in play everything makes a lot more sense.

I'm sure everything you said made perfect sense. I'll try to get my head around it and get back to you. Thanks Paul!

Offline dave shelley

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Re: International Rugby
« Reply #3866 on: March 24, 2023, 08:13:55 AM »
Thanks for that, made things clearer for me.

Offline paul_e

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Re: International Rugby
« Reply #3867 on: March 24, 2023, 08:52:21 AM »
I noticed now I'm on my laptop there were a few typos and bit that weren't as clear as I'd like so I've made a few changes to the post.

I honestly hope it helps people because I do understand that for people who don't know the sport/haven't played the technical penalties can get really messy and hard to follow. I didn't include the lineout because most of the penalties there are actually in the resultant maul but I'm happy to cover anything if anyone is unsure.

I'm also very sorry for anyone who doesn't give a shit about this, I took Rory's request in good faith and hope it will help him if he chooses to watch games going forward.

Offline Drummond

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Re: International Rugby
« Reply #3868 on: March 24, 2023, 12:31:10 PM »
Yeah, i started thinking a few lines would enough and got carried away. Rugby looks complicated written down but in play everything makes a lot more sense.

I'm sure everything you said made perfect sense.I'll try to get my head around it and get back to you. Thanks Paul!

That would be a free-kick.

Offline Rory

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Re: International Rugby
« Reply #3869 on: March 24, 2023, 07:52:30 PM »
I noticed now I'm on my laptop there were a few typos and bit that weren't as clear as I'd like so I've made a few changes to the post.

I honestly hope it helps people because I do understand that for people who don't know the sport/haven't played the technical penalties can get really messy and hard to follow. I didn't include the lineout because most of the penalties there are actually in the resultant maul but I'm happy to cover anything if anyone is unsure.

I'm also very sorry for anyone who doesn't give a shit about this, I took Rory's request in good faith and hope it will help him if he chooses to watch games going forward.

I've just read through and it absolutely helps, thanks Paul. So how long do you have to let go of the ball/man after a tackle, and what constitutes a completed tackle?

 


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