BFR 75 Today

[Tayls_7]

But BFR isn't from either of your mothers' generatiion.

You missed the point of Brian's post there.

[Chris Smith]

What makes his words more offensive is that he had worked in an environment when there had been massive efforts to raise awareness and remove those attitudes from the game. To have gone through that period and still make those comments and then to compound it by an inability to see why what he said was offensive takes a particular combination of arrogance and stupidity.

[saunders_heroes]

What makes his words more offensive is that he had worked in an environment when there had been massive efforts to raise awareness and remove those attitudes from the game. To have gone through that period and still make those comments and then to compound it by an inability to see why what he said was offensive takes a particular combination of arrogance and stupidity.

Yeah but let's not punish him for the rest of his life though. He made a mistake which was wrong and apologised for it. I don't think he's a racist, but he's certainly from a generation where it wasn't such a taboo thing to say. That's not condoning it, it's just looking for reasons why someone can say such an offensive slur. Why the continual witch hunt though? I don't see Ian Wright being continually hounded for his quite disgusting mocking of a disabled linesman during the 90s, and he seems to have been forgiven, so why not Atkinson?

[rob_bridge]

It a deeply stupid and offensive thing to say and I believe he paid the penalty with his job and apologised.

Not sure if it has been picked up before. What was absurd was that the player who was the subject of his ire/fruatration had won just about everything there was to win. Therefore aside from the disgusting 'n' word calling him lazy or thick was not justified.

[robbo1874]

Can't remember exactly what he said, but wasn't it something along the lines of: some might say that player x is...   

I suppose if what he meant by 'some people' was 'I' that would truly make him racist, but if he did actually mean 'some people other than me' then maybe he was just articulating (poorly) what he thought was a common view? My initial post was more a reference to an Alan partridge quote than a real dig at him. if what he said offended people ( and no doubt it did) then it was likely out of order.

What is undeniable is that he clearly had faith in black players and would play players on their ability. What is less clear though, is how those players were treated behind the scenes. I think a few have since come out and pointed the finger, notably Collymore, but BFR never managed him as a player, to my knowledge.

It's a shame it takes the gloss off his time at the club

[Chris Smith]

What makes his words more offensive is that he had worked in an environment when there had been massive efforts to raise awareness and remove those attitudes from the game. To have gone through that period and still make those comments and then to compound it by an inability to see why what he said was offensive takes a particular combination of arrogance and stupidity.

Yeah but let's not punish him for the rest of his life though. He made a mistake which was wrong and apologised for it. I don't think he's a racist, but he's certainly from a generation where it wasn't such a taboo thing to say. That's not condoning it, it's just looking for reasons why someone can say such an offensive slur. Why the continual witch hunt though? I don't see Ian Wright being continually hounded for his quite disgusting mocking of a disabled linesman during the 90s, and he seems to have been forgiven, so why not Atkinson?

It's not a witch hunt, but on a thread started about him it is a legitimate avenue for discussion. Otherwise we just get a succession of gushing tributes as though the other stuff didn't happen.

[QBVILLA]

In work with a 59 year old bloke who was talking about an ex colleague whose name he couldn't remember and he described him as 'coloured'. In his mind this was the acceptable terminology and I had to tell him this could be perceived as racist. Now I know this is on a different level to the word Ron used but even so I believe Ron was guilty of using racist terminology rather than being a racist. The amount of his ex players, black ex players who spoke out on his behalf makes me believe that despite working with him on a day to day basis they didn't think of him as a racist.

[saunders_heroes]

In work with a 59 year old bloke who was talking about an ex colleague whose name he couldn't remember and he described him as 'coloured'. In his mind this was the acceptable terminology and I had to tell him this could be perceived as racist. Now I know this is on a different level to the word Ron used but even so I believe Ron was guilty of using racist terminology rather than being a racist. The amount of his ex players, black ex players who spoke out on his behalf makes me believe that despite working with him on a day to day basis they didn't think of him as a racist.

The fact that so many of his former black players came out to support him is the reason I think Atkinson isn't a racist. He made a big mistake and was rightly punished for it, but that doesn't mean he should be punished forever though. He should have been given a second chance like Ian Wright was given after he cruelly mocked a disabled linesman back in the 90s. Ironically Wright was one of the biggest critics of Big Ron yet he conveniently forgot all about his own offence, which was worse (in my opinion). I don't see him being ostracised by the media in this country though.

[Chico Hamilton III]

We had a dog with the 'N' name, and later a cat

Mate of mine had a dog with the "N" name. He cringes now when he recalls shouting the dog's name up and down the street whenever it went missing. Which was often.

[dcdavecollett]

Ron's actions as a manager suggest he was not racist, but the commentary incident suggests he was.

There was a documentary about the incident on TV a few years ago. Ron said he had apologised and didn't know what more he could do but there was a clear sense that he didn't understand what he had apologised for.

[Dave Cooper please]

Ron's actions as a manager suggest he was not racist

*Apologies if you think I've quoted you out of context Dave*

Ron was pretty much forced to work with black players, as was just about any manager at the time because black players were making the breakthrough whatever happened, the racism they endured was vile but they were too skilful, hardworking and too numerous for football to ignore them any longer.

I liken the contradictions between his championing of black players and his vile remarks to the sort of people I've worked with in my life, especially I an ashamed to say in the Army. The sort of blokes who will spout all sorts of racist nonsense down the bar but when questioned about the black bloke in their squadron will say, "Yeah, but Leroy's a good bloke, and he don't mind the jokes."

[dave.woodhall]

Ron's actions as a manager suggest he was not racist, but the commentary incident suggests he was.

There was a documentary about the incident on TV a few years ago. Ron said he had apologised and didn't know what more he could do but there was a clear sense that he didn't understand what he had apologised for.

That's been my take all along. Apologise for doing it, or for being caught?

[robbo1874]

In work with a 59 year old bloke who was talking about an ex colleague whose name he couldn't remember and he described him as 'coloured'. In his mind this was the acceptable terminology and I had to tell him this could be perceived as racist. Now I know this is on a different level to the word Ron used but even so I believe Ron was guilty of using racist terminology rather than being a racist. The amount of his ex players, black ex players who spoke out on his behalf makes me believe that despite working with him on a day to day basis they didn't think of him as a racist.

The fact that so many of his former black players came out to support him is the reason I think Atkinson isn't a racist. He made a big mistake and was rightly punished for it, but that doesn't mean he should be punished forever though. He should have been given a second chance like Ian Wright was given after he cruelly mocked a disabled linesman back in the 90s. Ironically Wright was one of the biggest critics of Big Ron yet he conveniently forgot all about his own offence, which was worse (in my opinion). I don't see him being ostracised by the media in this country though.

he's not getting punished forever though, is he? The fact people are still talking about it means the issue is still relevant and arguably contentious. If that makes him uncomfortable by it still being brought up, it's unfortunate for him obviously, but its not a punishment. People can discuss what they like and they will. It's telling, the vast amount of goodwill a lot of people still have towards him (me included).

[Toronto Villa]

There's no punishment here. It's a shame for all of us that our memories of him are tarnished by what happened. However, it is possible to separate the two. You can still love him for his management of the club and the football he brought for that short period of time. You can also be harsh on him for comments made, and especially as he never fully accepted what he did or the consequences of his actions over the years, not just at that very moment.

[peter w]

In the documentary though what came across was that yes he was a persaon of a different era, but he genuinely felt that he was being continuously lambasted for it. Rightly so if he was a card waving racist but I do not think he is. As for paul Parker's comment I totally disagree. The phrase 'nigger in the woodpile' was still fairly prevalent up to a decade or two ago. I remember a lecturer using it in a Seminar whilst a Nigerian guy was sitting there. the lecturer didn't even blink twice. I don't think that mnakes him a racist but that the word in a phrase meant something else to him.

Cut to Only Fools and Horses in the 80s and a scene where Del Boy gives some money to a kid sitting on a kerb crying. "Here's 50p son. Go on. Go and get yourself sumfink from the Paki shop". Harmless then, and the corner shop was generally referred to as a Paki shop without fully understanding any negative connotations or how the people being reffered to as 'Paki' would take such a word. If you follow Paul Parker's words to the letter then is he saying John Sullivan is a racist?

I don't know if Big Ron is a racist I don't know him. But I doubt that in a high profile job like his, where he is and has been one of the most open people in the game, and further when in the media, that he would be a secret racist. He didn't need to field 8 black players against Everton (I think it was), and he didn't need to worry about fielding a new generation of non-white players, he played whoever he felt was good enough.

Yes I think he doesn't get the condemnation and that he has to keep apologising. But I think a lot of that is to do with an out-pouring of almost pity that one of the most likable football people on television that was genuinely liked and admired by just about everyone should something so stupid, so crass, and, well, so apparently racist.