The Paul Lambert thread - poll reset after our capitulation to Hull

[Monty]

Very true, S_H. There are plenty of George Burleys out there. Not that Lambert's doomed to failure, just he's got some very big flaws he needs to address before he can move up as a manager, with or without Villa.

[Mister E]

The summer and early part of next season is the time to judge Lambert's progress. As with an assessment of RL's level of commitment, we'll see whether the latter stumps up the dosh and whether the former can build a side around some good, experienced players.
Talk of a contract extension seems a little premature.

[Toronto Villa]

I have a guess as to Lambert's long-term plans. I just think we've seen 18 months of it and that, far from looking closer to implementing it, it looks like it's slipping further away. People talk about patience being needed for managers and that's true, but actually a manager's style of play can often be seen working, or in evidence, very quickly. Look at Poyet, or indeed ourselves in Lambert's first game ('we're Aston Villa, we're passing the ball' etc), when his intentions contrasted very obviously with McLeish's. However, a season and a half is starting to show the limits of his reliance on good intentions.

18 months is nothing though in the grand scheme of things. I've also seen this team in that time out pass teams several million pounds better than us. Now, granted it hasn't happened often enough, but that said, if the manager only wanted us to play one system or style then we'd never have seen those displays at all. It would all be Tony Pulis and nothing else. I still believe that we will continue to evolve and that evolution under improved financial conditions will result in better players arriving. We have the basis of a good squad in my opinion that have days where they can be very good. On the days where we have been the opposite what we have needed is some real quality which I think will be the objective for transfer windows to come so that the base level of our play is always of a good standard.

[Toronto Villa]

and regarding the contract it is entirely possible that it would only be offered in the summer. All that we have knowledge is that it is being discussed. There has never been a specific timeframe assigned to it. You would think from some of the posts that he had already signed it.

[Monty]

TV, I agree that his intentions are good, I have no doubt about that. It's the same with Lerner as with him, though - intentions aren't enough if their competence isn't up to it. Martinez at Wigan, with a crap team and no money getting steadily crapper each year, got this style of football through in spite of all that. Lambert is failing to get this style imprinted on the team, and I think it's because his approach is a bit light in detail and a bit muddled.

[PeterWithesShin]

Very true, S_H. There are plenty of George Burleys out there. Not that Lambert's doomed to failure, just he's got some very big flaws he needs to address before he can move up as a manager, with or without Villa.

There are also plenty who have proved themselves to be very good managers. I have no idea if Lambert will become a very good manager or not, for me he could go either way.

[Rudy Can't Fail]

Rudy, any new manager worth having will want his own players, those that don't will be those just grateful for the job. It's how it always works.

He can want all he wants but from what we know the finance won't be there to make dramatic changes - he will have to work with what he's got, which isn't a bad start, despite our poor performances. It should be evolution not revolution.

What surprises me most about this is how so many people who don't appear to be totally stupid <;¬)> have, in such a relatively short time, been able to form such an unbending opinion on Lambert. To me I've seem bits of everything, from the rubbish to the exhilarating, but that is just what I would expect from a team having gone through all the upheaval that we have in recent years.

Looking at the other shoe, there are plenty on here that you know will find any excuse to keep the status quo, and one or two of them even have brains<;¬)> . What you refer to a short time should be enough for a manager to implement his style of football on the team, not fully, sure but at least a sign of what he's trying to do. Look at how we started the season at Arsenal and Chelsea, the way we played, the purpose and thought to our game. Why didn't we continue with that style, develop it, work at it, as it certainly suited our players and the fans bloody loved it. It may not have worked every game but it was something no Villa fan with more than half a brain would complain about. Instead, for god knows whatever reason, we decide to go back to hoofball and not only has it been unsuccessful in terms of results, I'm more than sure it's been demoralising for the players and fans alike.

How often have you read on here post-match, fans completely struggling to see what Lambert's tactics are. It's a bloody mystery and despite us playing as you say, "exhilarating" football at times - and I'm at the front of the queue to praise the team when we do, the vast majority has been freestyle "rubbish". Monty summed up very well the basic lack of a gameplan after 18 months and I'm sorry Chris but you can't forever continue to blame the past for the dire football we witness most weekends.

Next season will be the key one for him.

Well that really depends if he signs his new contract extension. It's going to take a big leap of faith for Lerner to consider finding a better replacement. Maybe he won't have to, maybe Lambert will start delivering but right now there's very little evidence to suggest he'll get it right.

What are your thoughts on his contract extension?

[Toronto Villa]

TV, I agree that his intentions are good, I have no doubt about that. It's the same with Lerner as with him, though - intentions aren't enough if their competence isn't up to it. Martinez at Wigan, with a crap team and no money getting steadily crapper each year, got this style of football through in spite of all that. Lambert is failing to get this style imprinted on the team, and I think it's because his approach is a bit light in detail and a bit muddled.

I'm certainly not giving him an outright pass given some of what we've seen but I would like to see where we are with a few more Vlaar/Benteke/Bertrand level players in the side. Regarding Martinez at Wigan, it's all good and well developing a passing style but not so important if you lose a lot in doing so. That's right out of the Tony Mowbray manual. I think you're right about Lambert not settling on a style, and that is very much a concern, and one I hope better players who are more consistent in their play will help create.

[Monty]

You can have as good players as you like, the manager needs to set the style. Just look at United this year. Also, I think we can safely say now that without Martinez Wigan would probably have gone long before they did. There's no Tony Mowbray about this, it worked bloody well, and they won that thing we haven't seen for 57 years. His stylistic zeal is part of the general seriousness with which he regards the job, whereas Mowbray used it to try and mask his inadequacies.

Lambert doesn't have this stylistic passion, which is fine - it may even make him a good manager of a club like Swansea, who perhaps need to mix it up more - but we have been muddling along in the football of bygone decades for too long, and we need someone to stamp some definite ideas on the team.

[Toronto Villa]

Yes, he won the FA cup, but over 38 league games that style got the team relegated. You cannot take one without considering the other, and the league is a far better barometer as to whether a certain style is working or not than the cup. Had they got knocked out of the cup and got relegated the season is a complete disaster. You can make the argument that over the years he was at the club they had good enough players not to have been relegated, or battered 4-0 at home by Blackpool, 9-1 at Spurs or lost 9 league games in a row in 2011. It's easy to forget that when only looking your own team. I'm not at dismissing what Martinez has done at Everton, or the task in front of Lambert but these comparisons to Martinez aren't exactly fair if we only consider what is on the surface.

[Monty]

You're right, because Martinez had it far tougher. Yes his team was relegated over that 38 game period - just - but it kept them in the league above more expensively assembled and more conservatively styled teams over the previous 114 games. It's a kind of miracle in itself what Martinez did with that team. He's done well at Everton but he's walked into a very good situation there, whereas at Wigan he really did a hell of a job.

[saunders_heroes]

Yes, he won the FA cup, but over 38 league games that style got the team relegated. You cannot take one without considering the other, and the league is a far better barometer as to whether a certain style is working or not than the cup. Had they got knocked out of the cup and got relegated the season is a complete disaster. You can make the argument that over the years he was at the club they had good enough players not to have been relegated, or battered 4-0 at home by Blackpool, 9-1 at Spurs or lost 9 league games in a row in 2011. It's easy to forget that when only looking your own team. I'm not at dismissing what Martinez has done at Everton, or the task in front of Lambert but these comparisons to Martinez aren't exactly fair if we only consider what is on the surface.

But you have to remember that Wigan are not a big club and we're always going to be relegated at some stage, and it just happened to be last season. I think their fans are just happy to spend a few seasons in with the big boys, and winning the FA Cup is beyond their wildest dreams.
I still think Martinez is a far better manager than Lambert and the football he plays is immensely better than the hoofball Lambert churns out on a weekly basis.

[Toronto Villa]

You're right, because Martinez had it far tougher. Yes his team was relegated over that 38 game period - just - but it kept them in the league above more expensively assembled and more conservatively styled teams over the previous 114 games. It's a kind of miracle in itself what Martinez did with that team. He's done well at Everton but he's walked into a very good situation there, whereas at Wigan he really did a hell of a job.

Yes he got relegated just last season, but avoided it just in all of the other seasons. And isn't saying Martinez had it tougher a bit like commending Allardyce for the job he did at Bolton? He punched above his weight for a few years even if the style at times made you want to puke. We're a bigger club than Bolton or Wigan and with that comes expectation which goes against Lambert. We naturally expect more, but we don't have a divine right to it. I hope that Lambert is able to come through this and create a style that above all else wins games.

[Monty]

Allardyce does deserve credit, actually. However, most relegation-threatened teams try to play like Allardyce, and many of them fail. Very few of them try to play like Martinez, and maybe they should, maybe it would serve them better. The point is that one style is limited much much more than the other. Martinez could play the same style were he manager of Real Madrid, but Allardyce (contrary to his apparent beliefs) could not.

I hope Lambert does too, I've just not seen the consistent evidence that he really knows how to complete what he wants to.

[brian green]

My biggest concern about Paul Lambert is not his sincerity or his loyalty or his commitment to hard work or his ambition or his honesty - none of those things, and like TSM I think he is a good and decent man.   My concern is for his intelligence.   Every time he gets suckered by an opposing manager, the doubts creep back in.