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[Percy McCarthy]

See, this is why run-of-the-mill football violence has never bothered me. People who like violence fighting over something essentially trivial like football - so what? When people do it over religion, race etc, that's when it gets sinister.

The problem with that is that, whilst I understand the argument that it is largely "people who want to fight, fighting with other people who want to fight, so let them get on with it", it doesn't really work that way.

The people kicking shit out of each other don't do so in a hermetically sealed, closed off environment where nobody who isn't looking for it finds themselves in trouble.

See the mention of the Atletico Madrid away game on another thread at the moment for an example. Or, indeed, look at the way all football fans got treated like shit for years and years not that long ago, that was all the result of people doing precisely that "if they weren't doing it here, they'd be doing it outside a pub" thing.

The difference is, if a load of blokes meet to kick the shit out of each other outside a pub, that doesn't end up with pub users elsewhere in the country finding they suffer as a result of someone else's shit hobby.

I entirely understand the connection of hooliganism and violence with British football culture, you'd have to be blind not to have attended matches during the 70s and 80s and not picked up on that connection, but really, some of the excuse making that still goes on for it is absolutely nuts.

Hard to argue with a lot of that paulie, not that I want to really. But my point wasn't making excuses, as I think you gleaned from 'so what?' That was more to do with if you think a few thrill-seekers seeking thrills in football violence is a sign that civilisation as we know it is coming to an end, where do you go when British people are trying to blow us up on the tube or cut a bloke's head off in broad daylight?

[pauliewalnuts]

I don't think it is a sign of civilisation coming to an end, no, and I'd never suggest it was. I don't think anyone would, for that matter.

In terms of excuses or mitigating factors, though, that's pretty much as limp as it gets.

[pauliewalnuts]

The original poster has not posted anything since 

He's probably sat at a bar somewhere with that Stoke fan, swapping stories about when they popped on to H&V for a quick vox populi.

[Percy McCarthy]

I don't think it is a sign of civilisation coming to an end, no, and I'd never suggest it was. I don't think anyone would, for that matter.

In terms of excuses or mitigating factors, though, that's pretty much as limp as it gets.

Again, what excuse? All I'm saying is, it's no biggie.

[Dave Cooper please]

I don't think it is a sign of civilisation coming to an end, no, and I'd never suggest it was. I don't think anyone would, for that matter.

In terms of excuses or mitigating factors, though, that's pretty much as limp as it gets.

Again, what excuse? All I'm saying is, it's no biggie.

I became a biggie at Hillsborough though, when the fences erected to keep hooligans caged in were directly responsible for the deaths of many of the 96 who died, plus the attitude of the authorities of "Well they are just football fans, hooligan scum to a man" was very evident in the way they reacted both before, during and after the disaster.
 I'm not saying that people wanting to fight other football fans was solely responsible at all, and certainly it had nothing directly to do with what happened on the day, but it was a very big mitigating factor in the scale of it.

[cdbearsfan]

I don't think it is a sign of civilisation coming to an end, no, and I'd never suggest it was. I don't think anyone would, for that matter.

In terms of excuses or mitigating factors, though, that's pretty much as limp as it gets.

Again, what excuse? All I'm saying is, it's no biggie.

I guess if you're an innocent football fan, who gets his head kicked in just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, then it is a biggie.

[rjp]

I remember reading somewhere that the Hardcore were pretty racist in the 70's/80's and were known to engage in 'Paki-bashing' and the like.

I went to Leicester away in about 1996 or so, and a pretty sizeable chunk of the villa fans were singing "you're the pride of Pakistan". Clearly, not as sinister as some other chants, but I found it completely cringeworthy, not to say ironic given Aston's makeup.

Having said that, I'm pretty embarassed to this day that I used to wholeheartedly join in with the "your brother is a queer" chant to John Fashanu, which was just plain wrong.

I think the Leicester game you mention was more like 1999, I was there and cringed as well.  It was a rare away day for me back then but I go to quite a few these days.  Thankfully I haven't heard anything like that from our fans since that game.  I'm not saying things are perfect but you have to say we've come a long way.

[damon loves JT]

I've never been recruited by the National Front. Though I did once stand next to Sir Trevor McDonald at a urinal.

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I've never been recruited by the National Front. Though I did once stand next to Sir Trevor McDonald at a urinal.

Did he shake or did he run the risk of seepage?

[damon loves JT]

I've never been recruited by the National Front. Though I did once stand next to Sir Trevor McDonald at a urinal.

Did he shake or did he run the risk of seepage?

He stood completely motionless for an unnecessarily long time after he had finished. I dont mind admitting I was a bit frightened.

[144 Hard Boiled Eggs]

I remember during the 70's a headline in the Evening Mail "The two sides of second city soccer" (or something very similar) accompanied by two photographs. One was of the Villa fans at an away game with hundreds of balloons (it always used to look great) and the other picture was of dipsticks at St Andrews with their cardboard NF banners. It must be in the local press archive somewhere.

[pauliewalnuts]

Does anyone else vaguely remember in the 80s, there was an England away game, at which there had been a fair amount of trouble, England fans playing up, and a few days later the front page of the Evening Mail was a post card sent to them, allegedly from "Aston Villa NF" ranting a bit about the aggro they'd caused?

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Does anyone else vaguely remember in the 80s, there was an England away game, at which there had been a fair amount of trouble, England fans playing up, and a few days later the front page of the Evening Mail was a post card sent to them, allegedly from "Aston Villa NF" ranting a bit about the aggro they'd caused?

I am not saying we don't have our own far right nutters, I am sure most clubs probably do, but the Mail has always liked to propagate some NF myths about the Villa.

Do you remember before the 03/03/03 game where there were fabricated stories about the Villa recruiting far right loons to help bash in the Noses? 

[pauliewalnuts]

Does anyone else vaguely remember in the 80s, there was an England away game, at which there had been a fair amount of trouble, England fans playing up, and a few days later the front page of the Evening Mail was a post card sent to them, allegedly from "Aston Villa NF" ranting a bit about the aggro they'd caused?

I am not saying we don't have our own far right nutters, I am sure most clubs probably do, but the Mail has always liked to propagate some NF myths about the Villa.

True enough, but this was accompanied by a photo of the actual post card.

[damon loves JT]

Stuff that's written on postcards is admissible in a court of law.