Giro d'Italia / Tour de France Cycling thread 2013

[JD]

Just because someone is built like a brick shithouse doesn't mean they have endurance. They are suited to shorter distances and bursts of power. Its why its possible to see Mo Farah beat Usain Bolt over 600 metres.

With Froome he wasn't at a team like Sky - a professional team whose techniques were sneered at but now mostly copied. Peter Withe was a nobody until he joined Villa and fit. Farah, as mentioned has come good over the last couple of years. Jonathon Edwards was almost 30 when he started breaking records and winning world titles  and 34 for an olympic title.

There are countless people who don't obtain brilliance immediately. Doesn't mean its drugs.

At last, some sense in the thread. Great post Pete, I totally agree. The first time I ran a marathon it took me 4 hours. After training for a couple of years and changing my training technique I could run a marathon in under 3 hours and was in my mid thirties. So yes, changing training techniques can change an athlete.   

[paul_e]

Literally 30seconds of searching and clicking the 2nd link down took me to a BBC report - here

The important bit is:

Another measure which might make a better comparison, according to Dr Ross Tucker of the sports science institute at the University of Cape Town, is the power-to-weight ratio.

Dr Tucker says you can see a marked difference between today and the bad old days when there were no tests for blood doping or drugs such as EPO.

"In the late 1990s and early 2000s if you were going to be competitive and win the Tour de France you would have to be able to cycle between 6.4 and 6.7 watts per kilogram at the end of a day's stage.

"What we are seeing now, in the last three or four years, is that the speed of the front of the peloton [of] men like Bradley Wiggins, Chris Froome and Vincenzo Nibali, is about 10% down compared to that generation and now the power output at the front is about 6W/kg."

So your assertion that they're posting times close to well known dopers isn't true and your entire argument is based on that false assumption.

As for Mo Farah he has been regarded as a massive prospect in 5k and 10k for years, he didn't burst onto the scene in any way, his performance increases every year are perfectly reasonable and in line with expectations for someone who was regarded as an olympic hopeful when he was a teenager.  Again there is nothing in any of the data to suggest he's ever taken drugs so why can't you believe that it's down to talent.

The innocent until proven guilty thing is silly, you might as well not bother following the sport if you're going to have that attitude, the Armstrong situation means that cycling needs to be whiter than white for a few years, the risks otherwise are too great.  There will still be cheats, the same as any sport but you won't have the systematic team wide doping that has been seen previously.  I'd be very surprised if anyone at sky is doing anything dodgy, they're very open with the press and are happy to give full access to journalists during tours. 

[Dante Lavelli]

According to wiki Bradley Wiggins didn't properly change from a track cyclist to a road cyclist until after the 2008 games (where he did well).

2009 he came 4th in the TdF (later upgraded to 3rd).
2011 he won the Dauphine and 3rd in the vuelta.
2012 he won shed loads.

It's no as if he came from nowhere, he was a track cyclist that improved as a road cyclist from 2009 to 2012 when he started devoting all of his time to the road part of the sport.

[paul_e]

According to wiki Bradley Wiggins didn't properly change from a track cyclist to a road cyclist until after the 2008 games (where he did well).

2009 he came 4th in the TdF (later upgraded to 3rd).
2011 he won the Dauphine and 3rd in the vuelta.
2012 he won shed loads.

It's no as if he came from nowhere, he was a multiple world champion track cyclist that improved as a road cyclist from 2009 to 2012 when he started devoting all of his time to the road part of the sport.

Added the bold bit because it's important, it's not like he started from nothing in 2009, he was already considered one of the greatest track cyclists of all time at that point, and had entered the giro and tdf a few times already and been in the middle of the pack (during the armstrong era).

[SteveN]

"[quote
The innocent until proven guilty thing is silly, you might as well not bother following the sport [/quote]

I'd say most sport not just cycling.

[aj2k77]

Well Sky have provided all the training data for all of their riders to the UCI to show how they are achieving the results they are getting so if there's anything untoward it should come out.
Some people are never going to be convinced that a TDF winner can be clean, that's the legacy Armstrong et al have left the sport to carry I suppose.

Training date from Froome = PR stunt.

Release data from Froome before 2011 when he became a god and have it analysed inconjunction with recent data, also would like to see medical files regarding his Bilharzia for a true time frame of the illness.

Wiggo was shite on the road before 2009 when he kept up with dopers. Tell me how. He didn't just start focussing on the road then either btw hadn't cracked a grand tour top 120 (so not even mid peleton). He had some results in TT's as you'd expect, he is and was a world class time trialist, he had a pedigree in it but never once not a single time did he show an ability to climb.

Suspicious.

[Dante Lavelli]

Suspicious.

Suspicious maybe, but certainly no proof.  Team SKY have been very open to the press and other organisations in order to prove they're innocent.  Also there are not the stories of bullying and lawsuits which followed lance armstong about.

You've also got to remember that Brailsford's work also extends to Team GB as well.  A number of these athletes/cyclists are not rich and I think something would have leaked if the whole set up was corrupt yet they're probably the most successful cycling nation in the world at the moment.

Personally, I can't see it.

[aj2k77]

Suspicious.

Suspicious maybe, but certainly no proof.  Team SKY have been very open to the press and other organisations in order to prove they're innocent.  Also there are not the stories of bullying and lawsuits which followed lance armstong about.

You've also got to remember that Brailsford's work also extends to Team GB as well.  A number of these athletes/cyclists are not rich and I think something would have leaked if the whole set up was corrupt yet they're probably the most successful cycling nation in the world at the moment.

Personally, I can't see it.

Sky haven't been open to the press.

They have released a handful of power data files on Froome to a single person and he has analysed  that the performances over the last 18 months by Chris have been consistent.

I could have told you that, he's won everything he's targeted by and large. What about before? He claims he had a disease in 2010 to explain being shite, what about 2009, 2008 ? What would his files show then? There's only so much improvement a top tier cyclist can make over a couple of years from their starting physiology.

All they would need to do is release a large sample of files to numerous respected scientists that are spread over a period of 4/5 years, correlated with his bio passport results and tied in with his bilharzia story it would tell everyone what they needed to know.

Give a good reason why sky wont do this. I can't. Their number 1 rider is plagued by accusations and they pretty much do nothing to prove it otherwise. All the data needed is in their hands.

Chris' Bilharzia backstory doesn't add up anyway. Neither the length of time, his description of it, time periods, treatment etc.

Why would any GB cyclist leak any info they have on Brailsford and corruption? If it was a team wide program they'd be on it themselves and would only implicate themselves in it. Armstrong shat on enough people to make some real enemies and it was this that brought him down.

[paul_e]

Stop saying Froome had no pedigree, it's just not true.

2005
1st Stage 2 Tour of Mauritius
2006
1st Jersey yellow.svg Overall Tour of Mauritius
1st Stages 2 & 3
2nd Anatomic Jock Race
2007
1st Jersey yellow.svg Overall Mi-Août Bretonne
1st Stage 5 Giro delle Regioni (Under-23)
1st Stage 6 Tour of Japan
2nd Berg en Dale Classic
2nd Time trial, B World Championships
3rd Road race, All-Africa Games
2008
2nd Overall Giro del Capo
3rd Giro dell'Appennino
4th Overall Herald Sun Tour
2009
1st Stage 2 Giro del Capo
1st Anatomic Jock Race

From wikipedia, not difficult to find, so his pedigree was to place well in pretty much every event he entered.  I know none of those major competitions but they are the ones people ride in early in their careers.  He turned pro in 2007 as a 22 year old, which is quite late so seeing him start to show true potential a couple of years later than normal is perfectly reasonable.

There is nothing in his career history to suggest anything untoward.

On Bilharzia there are medical records of a return infection last year, which have been included, with the blood results, in documents given to the press, how can you question it?

You seem to be utterly convinced of his guilt and are ignoring the complete lack of evidence.

Is there any major world athlete you think is clean?

[Dante Lavelli]

Why would any GB cyclist leak any info they have on Brailsford and corruption? If it was a team wide program they'd be on it themselves and would only implicate themselves in it. Armstrong shat on enough people to make some real enemies and it was this that brought him down.

Pendelton is as mad as a bag of frogs and positively hates Brailsford from what I can tell.  She is also seemingly desperate for media attention so I wouldn't put it past her to release rumours or speak to the press, yet you never hear anything.

Brailsford also looked after the BMX riders and loads of other riders you failed to make the squad, dieticians, physios, kit cleaners:  all people who would arguably need to limelight and money that they could be obtained by grassing Brailsford up.

All my evidence is completely circumstantial but so is yours and the burden of proof has to be with the governing organisations not the most successful team.

By the way, did that journalist ever take Team Sky up on the offer to travel with them and stay in their hotels etc 100% of the time?

[aj2k77]

Stop saying Froome had no pedigree, it's just not true.

2005
1st Stage 2 Tour of Mauritius
2006
1st Jersey yellow.svg Overall Tour of Mauritius
1st Stages 2 & 3
2nd Anatomic Jock Race
2007
1st Jersey yellow.svg Overall Mi-Août Bretonne
1st Stage 5 Giro delle Regioni (Under-23)
1st Stage 6 Tour of Japan
2nd Berg en Dale Classic
2nd Time trial, B World Championships
3rd Road race, All-Africa Games
2008
2nd Overall Giro del Capo
3rd Giro dell'Appennino
4th Overall Herald Sun Tour
2009
1st Stage 2 Giro del Capo
1st Anatomic Jock Race

From wikipedia, not difficult to find, so his pedigree was to place well in pretty much every event he entered.  I know none of those major competitions but they are the ones people ride in early in their careers.  He turned pro in 2007 as a 22 year old, which is quite late so seeing him start to show true potential a couple of years later than normal is perfectly reasonable.

There is nothing in his career history to suggest anything untoward.

On Bilharzia there are medical records of a return infection last year, which have been included, with the blood results, in documents given to the press, how can you question it?

You seem to be utterly convinced of his guilt and are ignoring the complete lack of evidence.

Is there any major world athlete you think is clean?

No offence Paul but the evidence of his pedigree you've posted is a joke.

There is everything in his Career history to suggest he's a fraud. He placed 3rd in a single pro tour top ranked race and that's it. Then he should have won the Vuelta, then he probably would of won the tour, then he did win the tour. He's not a rookie kid, his progression doesn't make any sense.

On bilharzia read up about the treatment needed, symptoms and side effects and then read a few articles with Chris' take on it. Doesn't make sense.

Try to pin down when he claimed he caught the disease. There's so many conflicting interviews between him, Brailsford and his Girlfriend that it doesn't make sense.

I'm convinced of his guilt because I've never seen a nobody come through at his age and dominate with all the questions hanging over him that Sky could end with providing full evidence, which they haven't, without being juiced up.

Froome takes treatment every 6 months, why? I haven't seen any report that Froome has given anyone his records from 2008-2013. Especially medical records.

And yes I do think some major atheletes are clean but that's not the point.

[aj2k77]

By the way, did that journalist ever take Team Sky up on the offer to travel with them and stay in their hotels etc 100% of the time?

Dave Walsh from the Sunday Times stayed with them during the Giro I think.

[Dante Lavelli]

Try to pin down when he claimed he caught the disease. There's so many conflicting interviews between him, Brailsford and his Girlfriend that it doesn't make sense.

In order to give your argument a tad more credibility can you provide some examples?

Your argument sounds a lot like those aimed at Lance, yet at least in that instance there were people prepared to go into print, even get sued.  Other than your beliefs which are not evidence based, I have hardly heard any accusations directly against Froome (or team sky).

You might be proved right in time, but you're yet to provide anything in the way of evidence which has convinced me.

[Dante Lavelli]

By the way, did that journalist ever take Team Sky up on the offer to travel with them and stay in their hotels etc 100% of the time?

Dave Walsh from the Sunday Times stayed with them during the Giro I think.

...the results of which are no doubt behind a murdoch paywall or being written into a hard back book no doubt.  If anyone has any links they'd be appreciated.

[hipkiss92]

By the way, did that journalist ever take Team Sky up on the offer to travel with them and stay in their hotels etc 100% of the time?

Dave Walsh from the Sunday Times stayed with them during the Giro I think.

...the results of which are no doubt behind a murdoch paywall or being written into a hard back book no doubt.  If anyone has any links they'd be appreciated.

He's put a lot of stuff up on Twitter during the Tour, basically saying that he believes in Froome and that it's nothing like the Armstrong era