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Author Topic: Ashley Westwood - Sold to Burnley  (Read 172244 times)

Offline Pat McMahon

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Re: Ashley Westwood - Sold to Burnley
« Reply #1380 on: February 21, 2020, 08:30:37 PM »
In the past I have always been pretty highly rated at work but in my latest job I have had my first experience of trying to do it as well as I can whilst having managers who constantly tell me I am doing it wrong (& I mean constantly).

Itís gradually left me unable to think straight, not able to remember simple facts, procedures or tasks, unable to make a simple decision. In fact, from being really well thought of in my previous job which was similar, they have not only made me FEEL like I am no good at it, they have made me ACTUALLY no good at it.

Constant criticism does take your mental health apart, and your ability to be competent goes with it.

The truth is that this treatment of players robs us of talent.

I sympathise with you there Amfy as I had a similar experience about 12-13 years ago. I was working in a joint venture and had 2 bosses, one of whom was very political and did everything to make a landgrab for more than 50% of the team, with me somewhere in the middle.

Basically it got to the point where everything I did I was double and treble thinking and no longer trusting my own judgment. I disliked the company anyway so was able to leave within 8 months of joining, but for a while i was plain miserable, even at weekends.

I hope you manage to sort this out. When I left I was out of work for a while but much happier, though I appreciate you may not have the luxury of being able to douse your boss in pigshit and resigning.

Yep - the detail of it belongs in the mental health thread but its just an experience that has really made me think about what it must feel like when the fans are on your back out there on the pitch. Iíve always been someone who thinks the abuse doesnít help to bring out the best in players, but my recent personal experience of it has really made me feel the true impact of what that must be like for them.

Iíve taken a month of sick and have decided to resign. I am fortunate at this point in my life to be able to do so even if there is a gap before I find something else. Itíll have been about 8 months for me too!


Good luck and well done on taking action.I hope you feel a weight off your shoulders now.

I can only imagine how shit it must be for somebody who couldnít afford to get out like I did.

Offline paul_e

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Re: Ashley Westwood - Sold to Burnley
« Reply #1381 on: February 21, 2020, 09:25:26 PM »
"Clearly, demonstrably isn't 4th division " is not objective, though, it is subjective, and that is all it ever can be. Footballers can be judged by hundreds of criteria or combinations of, and each of us will rate varying criteria differently. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Arguing about footballers accounts for probably 80% of the posts on this site.

What I don't agree with is people giving players shit when they're out and about / living their life off the pitch. That's way over the top, and much as I think the likes of Westwood and NRC were crap for us, I'd never have been anything less than unfailingly polite had I encountered them 'in the wild'. I also never feel the need to scream obscenities at them during a match, either, for that matter. I'll never like that.

I'd also add that, whilst I disagree with Ads far more often than I agree, in saying things like this:

Quote
you show yourself to be less an objective critic ("I said he's dross, because he was") and just someone with a ridiculously, comically, unjustified high opinion of your own brilliance.

you're doing exactly the same thing you are accusing him of.


Sorry but no, I can't agree with the bold bit. There is an obvious objective measurement of the standard someone is capable of playing at and it's appearances. Ignoring that and applying any other measurement is being subjective, and is generally because "I don't care what the stats say my opinion is ...". That's not necessarily wrong though.



Westwood has played nearly twice as many premier league games as he has 4th division games, that alone is all the evidence you need to show that he's demonstrably not 4th division rubbish. He's an average player who looks at home in a bottom half of the prem team. It's also true that for his last 18months with us he looked like a player who was terrified of making mistakes and was crippled by that fear, I've only seen Burnley play a handful of times but he's been an important part of what they've done in that time.


On topic I agree with Nigel, he's 6-7 out of 10 player who does the simple things well and is more appreciated by teammates/managers than he is by fans. I also think calling him a wanker (in particular) in response to him saying his treatment by fans led to him suffering from depression is particularly crass, I have less issue with people calling him a poor player, I just don't really see the need for it, and the 'poster boy of our decline' thing is just a bit OTT.

Offline Ads

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Re: Ashley Westwood - Sold to Burnley
« Reply #1382 on: February 21, 2020, 09:43:19 PM »
Who called him a wanker and what did he ever do to reach the dizzying heights of 6 out of 10? I asked Simon, but no dice.

Offline pauliewalnuts

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Re: Ashley Westwood - Sold to Burnley
« Reply #1383 on: February 21, 2020, 11:17:45 PM »
"Clearly, demonstrably isn't 4th division " is not objective, though, it is subjective, and that is all it ever can be. Footballers can be judged by hundreds of criteria or combinations of, and each of us will rate varying criteria differently. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Arguing about footballers accounts for probably 80% of the posts on this site.

What I don't agree with is people giving players shit when they're out and about / living their life off the pitch. That's way over the top, and much as I think the likes of Westwood and NRC were crap for us, I'd never have been anything less than unfailingly polite had I encountered them 'in the wild'. I also never feel the need to scream obscenities at them during a match, either, for that matter. I'll never like that.

I'd also add that, whilst I disagree with Ads far more often than I agree, in saying things like this:

Quote
you show yourself to be less an objective critic ("I said he's dross, because he was") and just someone with a ridiculously, comically, unjustified high opinion of your own brilliance.

you're doing exactly the same thing you are accusing him of.


Sorry but no, I can't agree with the bold bit. There is an obvious objective measurement of the standard someone is capable of playing at and it's appearances. Ignoring that and applying any other measurement is being subjective, and is generally because "I don't care what the stats say my opinion is ...". That's not necessarily wrong though.

But that's totally wrong - number of appearances is also a subjective measure. Just because you think it's the case does not make it true - ultimately it will come down to whether the person in question thinks it is true or not - subjectivity.

In my terms of evaluation, number of appearances means nothing. Which is exactly the point i was trying to make - to me it does, to you it doesn't. Therefore it is entirely subjective.

I genuinely don't give much of a shit this way or that about Westwood. I didn't think he was very good for us, but then again, that's what I thought of almost all of our players at that time. But that's just my opinion.

I just get annoyed by people deciding they've got the truth about what makes a good player or not.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2020, 11:19:36 PM by pauliewalnuts »

Offline robbo1874

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Re: Ashley Westwood - Sold to Burnley
« Reply #1384 on: February 21, 2020, 11:23:35 PM »
In the past I have always been pretty highly rated at work but in my latest job I have had my first experience of trying to do it as well as I can whilst having managers who constantly tell me I am doing it wrong (& I mean constantly).

Itís gradually left me unable to think straight, not able to remember simple facts, procedures or tasks, unable to make a simple decision. In fact, from being really well thought of in my previous job which was similar, they have not only made me FEEL like I am no good at it, they have made me ACTUALLY no good at it.

Constant criticism does take your mental health apart, and your ability to be competent goes with it.

The truth is that this treatment of players robs us of talent.

I sympathise with you there Amfy as I had a similar experience about 12-13 years ago. I was working in a joint venture and had 2 bosses, one of whom was very political and did everything to make a landgrab for more than 50% of the team, with me somewhere in the middle.

Basically it got to the point where everything I did I was double and treble thinking and no longer trusting my own judgment. I disliked the company anyway so was able to leave within 8 months of joining, but for a while i was plain miserable, even at weekends.

I hope you manage to sort this out. When I left I was out of work for a while but much happier, though I appreciate you may not have the luxury of being able to douse your boss in pigshit and resigning.

Yep - the detail of it belongs in the mental health thread but its just an experience that has really made me think about what it must feel like when the fans are on your back out there on the pitch. Iíve always been someone who thinks the abuse doesnít help to bring out the best in players, but my recent personal experience of it has really made me feel the true impact of what that must be like for them.

Iíve taken a month of sick and have decided to resign. I am fortunate at this point in my life to be able to do so even if there is a gap before I find something else. Itíll have been about 8 months for me too!


Good luck and well done on taking action.I hope you feel a weight off your shoulders now.

I can only imagine how shit it must be for somebody who couldnít afford to get out like I did.
itís a tactic they do to keep you compliant. Iíve had it before also, but you only realise it when you leave. Wiser now.

Offline paul_e

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Re: Ashley Westwood - Sold to Burnley
« Reply #1385 on: February 21, 2020, 11:51:23 PM »
But that's totally wrong - number of appearances is also a subjective measure. Just because you think it's the case does not make it true - ultimately it will come down to whether the person in question thinks it is true or not - subjectivity.

In my terms of evaluation, number of appearances means nothing. Which is exactly the point i was trying to make - to me it does, to you it doesn't. Therefore it is entirely subjective.

I genuinely don't give much of a shit this way or that about Westwood. I didn't think he was very good for us, but then again, that's what I thought of almost all of our players at that time. But that's just my opinion.

I just get annoyed by people deciding they've got the truth about what makes a good player or not.

When Westwood writes an auto-biography he will, legitimately, list himself as a premier league player with well over 200 appearances at that level, that's not subjective, it's recorded fact. You're confusing whether those appearances are warranted or not and I do agree that  is subjective, but I never touched on that other than to say that doing so is not necessarily wrong.

I'm not trying to decide the truth, I'm just pointing out that calling him '4th division rubbish' is ignoring the clear evidence that he's not that at all.

Who called him a wanker and what did he ever do to reach the dizzying heights of 6 out of 10? I asked Simon, but no dice.

I still have nightmares of those shitty floaty corners he kept throwing at us. Wanker.

As I said, This is crass and completely unnecessary in the context of the discussion.

Online Sexual Ealing

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Re: Ashley Westwood - Sold to Burnley
« Reply #1386 on: February 22, 2020, 12:00:09 AM »
Haven't read the thread (at least not for a few years) but the idea that he wasn't needlessly scapegoated by Villa fans is mental, in my opinion.

Offline SoccerHQ

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Re: Ashley Westwood - Sold to Burnley
« Reply #1387 on: February 22, 2020, 12:22:36 AM »
Wasn't as bad as remembered in his first two seasons. Had a fantastic semi final game v Liverpool for instance.

Really missed Delph's energy when he left though.

Done well at Burnley, better than I thought actually.

Offline Ads

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Re: Ashley Westwood - Sold to Burnley
« Reply #1388 on: February 22, 2020, 12:26:05 AM »
There would be more pictures in his autobigoraphy than Tim Lovejoys.

"Appearence 125 for Villa. Did some quality pointing. Here is me pointing at a bang average Southampton player, ghosting by me."

Westwood was dross, he just happens to have stuck around from beginning to end of a very dark period, where as other dross like KEA, Bennett et al fluttered away into the "oh yeah, forgot he played for us" section of your cerebral cortex. Memories filed and hidden next to seeing your parents being affectionate and crashing and burning with that girl that one time. You know, the shudder memories.

Ergo he is the poster boy. Veretout is the what might have been if... Benteke was the island of hope...Gabby was the fat reminder of what once was...Bennett was the "fucking why god? Why do you hate us?!" and Westwood was the poster boy, the utter acceptance that we were a turd and that our flushing was inevitable.

Offline paul_e

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Re: Ashley Westwood - Sold to Burnley
« Reply #1389 on: February 22, 2020, 12:57:02 AM »
To be clear I never particularly rated him, mostly because I didn't think that type of player was what we needed for the obvious relegation battles we were going to be in, but I also never thought he was as bad as the match threads on here suggested either. However, I suspect he's the sort of player that his teammates and manager have loads of good things to say about - like this - https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/18059612.burnley-duo-unsung-heroes-boss-sean-dyche/


I guess I just don't like seeing our owns players abused to the level that he, and others since, have faced simply for not meeting the expectations of some fans. Abusing people who never looked like they gave a fuck about the club in any way is different (but I personally still try avoid it) but players who are clearly trying and just aren't as good as we want them to be really shouldn't be given the amount of personal stick they are.

Offline robbo1874

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Re: Ashley Westwood - Sold to Burnley
« Reply #1390 on: February 22, 2020, 03:08:58 AM »
Back in topic. He want that good, I didnít think

Offline Clampy

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Re: Ashley Westwood - Sold to Burnley
« Reply #1391 on: February 22, 2020, 07:50:59 AM »
I still have nightmares of those shitty floaty corners he kept throwing at us. Wanker.

I didn't rate the bloke either and I'm amazed we got as much money for him as we did, but why would anyone feel the need  to call a player a wanker because took a crap corner? It's totally unnecessary.

Offline Mister E

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Re: Ashley Westwood - Sold to Burnley
« Reply #1392 on: February 22, 2020, 08:38:41 AM »
Far better players than Westwood sunk without trace at the club at the time. Some of them are regulars at champions league clubs now. It points to a far bigger problem than a crap coach or two. The culture of the club was obviously rotten to the core at the time.

I was at Cardiff for what I think was one of Westwood's last games for the club. He started in the middle with Gary Gardner and they were both hooked at half time. I doubt either played much for us again, Tishbola actually came on and was decent the same day. Bruce signed the likes of Hourihane and Lansbury a week or two later. The club was as close to a rock bottom low as possible then.

Westwood has done very well to turn his career around to be holding his own in the top division at Burnley since. No world beater for sure but he saw off Drinkys challenge for his place easily. Seems a lot more abrasive and confident these days. Fair play to him. He had potential but just got lost in the Villa Park vortex.
This is a more balanced / charitable view.
Worryingly, Bruce saw Lansbury as a viable alternative.

Offline Abbeyfealeavfc

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Re: Ashley Westwood - Sold to Burnley
« Reply #1393 on: February 22, 2020, 08:41:04 AM »
It's interesting to note that in calling Westwood the "poster boy" of our relegation season no mention is made of the likes of richards, lescott, nzogbia, bacuna, richardson and guzan. Along with gabby these were the real poster boys that season.
On the subjects of Ashley and Soton who we play today, it seems Westwood enjoys playing the team from the south coast. He scored from a corner against them only a couple of weeks ago and I'm sure he scored a couple against them at VP in our relegation season in a 4-2 defeat (the game bacuna put in a 50 yard back pass resulting in a goal for them).

Offline PaulWinch again

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Re: Ashley Westwood - Sold to Burnley
« Reply #1394 on: February 22, 2020, 08:41:59 AM »
I still have nightmares of those shitty floaty corners he kept throwing at us. Wanker.

I didn't rate the bloke either and I'm amazed we got as much money for him as we did, but why would anyone feel the need  to call a player a wanker because took a crap corner? It's totally unnecessary.

Yup agreed. Also I suspect those corners were very much a tactical request.