collapse collapse
Please donate to help towards the costs of keeping this site going. Thank You.

Recent Topics

Summer 2022 Transfer Thread by Risso
[Today at 09:59:32 PM]


Diego Carlos - Signed (subject to medical etc) by Smirker
[Today at 09:58:06 PM]


Bears/Pears/Domestic Cricket Thread by manic-road
[Today at 09:56:34 PM]


Happy Rotterdam Day by Rudy65
[Today at 09:35:55 PM]


Other Games - 2021/22 by cdbearsfan
[Today at 09:35:27 PM]


My worst match by Exeter 77
[Today at 09:13:46 PM]


Carney Chukwuemeka by mike
[Today at 09:02:38 PM]


Der opposition by astonvilla82
[Today at 08:42:42 PM]

August 10, 2021, 03:37:52 PM by dave.woodhall | Views: 6491 | Comments: 6

It will soon be three years si...
August 09, 2021, 02:47:33 PM by dave.woodhall | Views: 9478 | Comments: 40

The Jack Grealish transfer mad...
August 08, 2021, 11:32:36 PM by dave.woodhall | Views: 5620 | Comments: 9

So he chose success after all....
August 07, 2021, 01:22:40 AM by dave.woodhall | Views: 4964 | Comments: 3

I well remember the day in Feb...
August 06, 2021, 06:39:59 PM by dave.woodhall | Views: 5515 | Comments: 11

The new name for the 100 ball ...

Follow us on...

Author Topic: Champions League restructuring  (Read 74878 times)

Online eamonn

  • Member
  • Posts: 24379
  • Location: Down to Worthing...and work there
  • GM : 26.07.2020
Re: Champions League restructuring
« Reply #1860 on: May 13, 2022, 06:11:49 PM »
Yeah, it's a bit weird to say the least. One single table, obviously there's not enough time for them to all play each other so I guess there are seeded and unseeded teams and within that there will be 10 random fixtures each. I think they're applying the same model to the Europa League and Conference. On the plus side for Villa, this might make it easier to qualify for Europe through the league. 

Online algy

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1994
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Gogledd Cymru
  • GM : 23.03.2023
Re: Champions League restructuring
« Reply #1861 on: May 13, 2022, 09:11:41 PM »
Yeah, it's a bit weird to say the least. One single table, obviously there's not enough time for them to all play each other so I guess there are seeded and unseeded teams and within that there will be 10 random fixtures each. I think they're applying the same model to the Europa League and Conference. On the plus side for Villa, this might make it easier to qualify for Europe through the league.
The Swiss System is quite common in chess, much less so in football. Basically it goes like this:

  • You draw all the teams out in random order, no seeding
  • 1st plays 2nd, 3rd plays 4th, 5th plays 6th, and so on.*
  • After all the games have been played, create a league table
  • Go to step 2 (until you've completed the number of fixtures you want to)

* In this case, if 5th had already played 6th, then you'd do it as-close-as-you-can without replaying the fixtures, so maybe 5th v 7th, 6th v 8th.


For this, it should absolutely be done as one big table.  You're trying to play fixtures according to the team's ability, so it makes no sense to artificially divide them in to two groups.

Online algy

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1994
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Gogledd Cymru
  • GM : 23.03.2023
Re: Champions League restructuring
« Reply #1862 on: May 13, 2022, 09:20:13 PM »
Speaking as someone who's run multiple table football competitions to the format - UEFA are making a pig's ear of it so far.  Without going in to the gory - and very dull - details of it, they've either made or are highly likely to make rookie errors that will likely make it easier to 'game' the system for mid-ranking sides -- too many rounds of fixtures for the number of teams competing, 3pts for a win [should be 2pts], using goal difference or goals scored to sort the league table [should be disregarded]

I'd be surprised if it doesn't come under a lot of criticism, first for being hellishly complicated, second for it producing 'odd' positions, and then for it being too easy to game the system.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2022, 09:22:07 PM by algy »

Offline Ad@m

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12210
  • GM : 23.03.2023
Re: Champions League restructuring
« Reply #1863 on: May 13, 2022, 10:22:48 PM »
All they're trying to do is increase the TV revenue, which means more games and more games between the established Champions League clubs.  Using a league format introduces the first requirement and is more likely to result in the established clubs getting through, delivering on the second one.

Offline ChicagoLion

  • Member
  • Posts: 16215
  • Location: Chicago
  • Literally
Re: Champions League restructuring
« Reply #1864 on: May 13, 2022, 11:25:19 PM »
They gradually encroaching on the Domestic game and have an eye on the prize of the Premier League Revenue. Stream.

Online Villafirst

  • Member
  • Posts: 6288
Re: Champions League restructuring
« Reply #1865 on: May 14, 2022, 07:43:15 AM »
Hardly a 'Champions' League is it? Talk about stretching the point.....

Online cdbearsfan

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 55296
  • Location: Yardley Massive
  • I still hate Bono.
    • Every time you click this link, a child in Africa dies.
  • GM : 27.01.2023
Re: Champions League restructuring
« Reply #1866 on: May 14, 2022, 10:22:33 AM »
Speaking as someone who's run multiple table football competitions to the format - UEFA are making a pig's ear of it so far.  Without going in to the gory - and very dull - details of it, they've either made or are highly likely to make rookie errors that will likely make it easier to 'game' the system for mid-ranking sides -- too many rounds of fixtures for the number of teams competing, 3pts for a win [should be 2pts], using goal difference or goals scored to sort the league table [should be disregarded]

I'd be surprised if it doesn't come under a lot of criticism, first for being hellishly complicated, second for it producing 'odd' positions, and then for it being too easy to game the system.

Sounds like a right load of old bollocks. Win a game and get punished with more difficult fixtures? Would it not also be the case that you wouldn't know who or where you were playing until a week before the match? That will be an absolute nightmare for fans. Unsurprisingly, they don't seem to have been consulted in any way.

Offline Mister E

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 14643
  • Location: Mostly the Republic of Yorkshire (N)
  • GM : 13.02.2023
Re: Champions League restructuring
« Reply #1867 on: May 14, 2022, 10:38:55 AM »
They gradually encroaching on the Domestic game and have an eye on the prize of the Premier League Revenue. Stream.

Yup, that's the plan.

Offline Footy-Vill

  • Member
  • Posts: 2660
  • GM : 06.09.2021
Re: Champions League restructuring
« Reply #1868 on: May 14, 2022, 11:17:48 AM »
Speaking as someone who's run multiple table football competitions to the format - UEFA are making a pig's ear of it so far.  Without going in to the gory - and very dull - details of it, they've either made or are highly likely to make rookie errors that will likely make it easier to 'game' the system for mid-ranking sides -- too many rounds of fixtures for the number of teams competing, 3pts for a win [should be 2pts], using goal difference or goals scored to sort the league table [should be disregarded]

I'd be surprised if it doesn't come under a lot of criticism, first for being hellishly complicated, second for it producing 'odd' positions, and then for it being too easy to game the system.

Not boring at all!  very interesting write up there. And good insights. I and many enjoy the finer details and in-depth stuff. Thanks. :)

Online algy

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1994
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Gogledd Cymru
  • GM : 23.03.2023
Re: Champions League restructuring
« Reply #1869 on: May 14, 2022, 11:32:31 AM »
Speaking as someone who's run multiple table football competitions to the format - UEFA are making a pig's ear of it so far.  Without going in to the gory - and very dull - details of it, they've either made or are highly likely to make rookie errors that will likely make it easier to 'game' the system for mid-ranking sides -- too many rounds of fixtures for the number of teams competing, 3pts for a win [should be 2pts], using goal difference or goals scored to sort the league table [should be disregarded]

I'd be surprised if it doesn't come under a lot of criticism, first for being hellishly complicated, second for it producing 'odd' positions, and then for it being too easy to game the system.

Sounds like a right load of old bollocks. Win a game and get punished with more difficult fixtures? Would it not also be the case that you wouldn't know who or where you were playing until a week before the match? That will be an absolute nightmare for fans. Unsurprisingly, they don't seem to have been consulted in any way.
I'd be less bothered about the 'harder fixtures' thing, in as much as it's no different to how you play "harder" fixtures in a cup competition as you progress through the rounds. That's why it's so critical to have the same number of rounds as a straight knockout would have, 2pts for a win, no goal difference - to keep it as close to an FA Cup type competition as possible for the sides that win their fixtures. They're unlikely to do that, though, so rather than having what's essentially a knockout cup with ranking games for all the losers, you instead end up with a bastardised league system that's inherently unfair to certain sides. As I'd mentioned, it's that unfairness that you can 'game' as a competitor because you can make sure things end up being weighted in your favour.

Yeah, you only *know* your fixture when every fixture from the previous round has been played. It's fine for chess because everyone's in the same room and can play the next match within minutes. Less so for professional football, again another imo miscalculation of how useful the system is in this context

I'd also assume they'll be planning on spreading the games over 2 days (Tuesday & Wednesday), which makes things worse. Because any games being played on Wednesday, the teams will know the results & have time to react. Imagine this: in the previous round Bayern Munich beat Real Madrid 2-0, Arsenal beat Shaktar Donetsk 1-0. You then know that a 2-0 win gets you Bayern Munich, a 1-0 win or 2-1 win gets you Arsenal, a 1-0 defeat gets you Shaktar and a 2-0 defeat gets you Real Madrid. So those 2 sides have a vested interest in making sure the game ends up with one team or the other winning by a single goal. Again - this is exactly why goal difference needs to be ignored, but you can bet your bottom dollar that UEFA will use it.

I'm proper geeky on this stuff, I know, but it's an absolute horror show. I'm a big fan of the Swiss System, but FFS it's so unsuited to association football to begin with, and even then they're opening it up to being incredibly easy to manipulate.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2022, 11:35:05 AM by algy »

Offline Ad@m

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12210
  • GM : 23.03.2023
Re: Champions League restructuring
« Reply #1870 on: May 14, 2022, 11:33:04 AM »
Speaking as someone who's run multiple table football competitions to the format - UEFA are making a pig's ear of it so far.  Without going in to the gory - and very dull - details of it, they've either made or are highly likely to make rookie errors that will likely make it easier to 'game' the system for mid-ranking sides -- too many rounds of fixtures for the number of teams competing, 3pts for a win [should be 2pts], using goal difference or goals scored to sort the league table [should be disregarded]

I'd be surprised if it doesn't come under a lot of criticism, first for being hellishly complicated, second for it producing 'odd' positions, and then for it being too easy to game the system.

Sounds like a right load of old bollocks. Win a game and get punished with more difficult fixtures? Would it not also be the case that you wouldn't know who or where you were playing until a week before the match? That will be an absolute nightmare for fans. Unsurprisingly, they don't seem to have been consulted in any way.

The only fans that matter are the ones paying their BT Sport subscription.

Offline Footy-Vill

  • Member
  • Posts: 2660
  • GM : 06.09.2021
Re: Champions League restructuring
« Reply #1871 on: May 14, 2022, 11:37:20 AM »
I suppose we will be wanting English teams to do well to assist our champions league placings push.
Maybe we won't begrudge Jack a Champions league win next season if it gives us Champions league extra place due to success of England clubs
Scenario JG Win the league this season , champions league next season with Man City  then he can come back home to play Champions league with us! No excuses not to!

 


SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal