Club Statement

[Toronto Villa]

My position is simple. We need to move on and stop whinging and fucking moaning about something we can't change.

Well what you see as 'Whinging and fucking moaning'
I see as constructive criticism.

I haven't seen any comments on McLeish's record during this thread that could be misconstrued as moaning.

We're all willing to give him a chance and i'm sure we all want him to succeed, but that shouldn't erase the thorny issue of his past record.

I'm not dismissing his past. I completely agree that it contributes to who is he is. But his past should just be about his relegations which consumes every discussion and argument about his past. His past, if you are to have a fair discussion includes league titles and cups. He still won them, and one them involved beating us along the way and tactically outdoing Arsenal in the final.

I do take my hat off to his League cup win, although this is tempered by the spiralling form afterwards that caused their relegation.
To quote my Blues Mate
'They seemed to think it was job done after the League cup win, it wasn't tiredness or squad size that caused the relegation, it was complacency'
That worries me after being told what a great motivator he is.

And i'm sorry, I still can't take the Scottish stuff seriously.
Gordon Strachan won 6 trophies up there, 3 of them League titles and he was a resounding failure at Middlesbrough.

I think the league cup run coupled with losing Scott Dann ultimately fucked them. I too don't place a huge amount of stock in his Scottish record, but it's still a part of his past. But if we were to completely dismiss it then MON's primary accomplishments need to be struck from the record too.

[Chris Smith]

You are now either going to refocus and get behind the club and hope the manager succeeds or you're going to keep on with complaining about it which is getting so exhausting. Look, almost none of us wanted him, but he's here now. Give him a chance to win you over. Is that really so much to ask?

No, it isn't too much to ask, and pretty much every single poster on here has said they'll give him a chance.

However, giving him a chance and pretending his previous record doesn't matter are two totally different things.

If people are going to consider his previous record then they should look at the total body of work, and not just concentrate on the 2 relegations that seem to occupy everybody's attention. While the 2 relegations don't look good on his CV, it doesn't 100% guarantee that this is what McLeish will be for the remainder of this managerial career and especially now being in an entirely different working environment and circumstance.

I don't know what you do for a living, but you and Chris would make terrible HR managers.

I agree, all that pretending to be nice to people while stabbing them in the back isn't my cup of tea.

Care to elaborate?

Can't really, just something I'm having to deal with at the moment.

[Rip Van We Go Again]

Can't really, just something I'm having to deal with at the moment.

Understand.

[Rip Van We Go Again]

My position is simple. We need to move on and stop whinging and fucking moaning about something we can't change.

Well what you see as 'Whinging and fucking moaning'
I see as constructive criticism.

I haven't seen any comments on McLeish's record during this thread that could be misconstrued as moaning.

We're all willing to give him a chance and i'm sure we all want him to succeed, but that shouldn't erase the thorny issue of his past record.

I'm not dismissing his past. I completely agree that it contributes to who is he is. But his past should just be about his relegations which consumes every discussion and argument about his past. His past, if you are to have a fair discussion includes league titles and cups. He still won them, and one them involved beating us along the way and tactically outdoing Arsenal in the final.

I do take my hat off to his League cup win, although this is tempered by the spiralling form afterwards that caused their relegation.
To quote my Blues Mate
'They seemed to think it was job done after the League cup win, it wasn't tiredness or squad size that caused the relegation, it was complacency'
That worries me after being told what a great motivator he is.

And i'm sorry, I still can't take the Scottish stuff seriously.
Gordon Strachan won 6 trophies up there, 3 of them League titles and he was a resounding failure at Middlesbrough.

I think the league cup run coupled with losing Scott Dann ultimately fucked them. I too don't place a huge amount of stock in his Scottish record, but it's still a part of his past. But if we were to completely dismiss it then MON's primary accomplishments need to be struck from the record too.

I agree TV.
I'd say the same about MON's achievements up there.
Although in the Hobbit's favour, he did win shitty Leicester a couple of League Cups.

[Risso]

McLeish finished third up there.  That's the Scottish football equivalent to getting Arsenal relegated.

[Mazrim]

McLeish finished third up there.  That's the Scottish football equivalent to getting Arsenal relegated.

I dont wish to defend him much but adversely, he got Motherwell to 2nd above Celtic, which is like getting Bolton into the champions league.

[PaulTheVillan]

He's obviously had a hit & miss career.

Let's hope the bad times are behind him.

[Chris Smith]

McLeish finished third up there.  That's the Scottish football equivalent to getting Arsenal relegated.

He also finished second with Motherwell didn't he?

[pauliewalnuts]

You are now either going to refocus and get behind the club and hope the manager succeeds or you're going to keep on with complaining about it which is getting so exhausting. Look, almost none of us wanted him, but he's here now. Give him a chance to win you over. Is that really so much to ask?

No, it isn't too much to ask, and pretty much every single poster on here has said they'll give him a chance.

However, giving him a chance and pretending his previous record doesn't matter are two totally different things.

If people are going to consider his previous record then they should look at the total body of work, and not just concentrate on the 2 relegations that seem to occupy everybody's attention. While the 2 relegations don't look good on his CV, it doesn't 100% guarantee that this is what McLeish will be for the remainder of this managerial career and especially now being in an entirely different working environment and circumstance.

No, it doesn't guarantee he'll always be a failure, but by the same stretch it raises a big question over how he got the job in the first place, and what we should expect given said poor record.

[Brend'Watkins]

McLeish finished third up there.  That's the Scottish football equivalent to getting Arsenal relegated.

He also finished second with Motherwell didn't he?

That's the Scottish equivalent of finishing 2nd in a two horse race.

[Risso]

McLeish finished third up there.  That's the Scottish football equivalent to getting Arsenal relegated.

I dont wish to defend him much but adversely, he got Motherwell to 2nd above Celtic, which is like getting Bolton into the champions league.

Not back then it wasn't.  For a period of about 7/8 years after 1988, Celtic didn't finish in the top two at all, and other clubs like Aberdeen, Hearts and Motherwell did instead. It was only from about 1996 that the two club league restablished itself.

[pauliewalnuts]

We need to move on and stop whinging and fucking moaning about something we can't change.

Does this mean that I can't whinge and moan if McLeish plays Heskey? Because I doubt that I'll be able to influence team selections.

It's the common line when people who don't think we should be critical of anything the club say come out with when people say things they don't like to hear.

If we stopped moaning and whingeing (and by extension, talking) about things we can't change, then there would be no point in this place.

There are clearly some people on here who are unhappy about pretty much everything.

There are also some people who, were the club to institute a policy of beheading a puppy on the centre spot before every game, would support it.

They're all perfectly entitled to have they say, and I imagine this place would be a lot more boring if we all shut up talking about stuff we can't influence.

[Toronto Villa]

You are now either going to refocus and get behind the club and hope the manager succeeds or you're going to keep on with complaining about it which is getting so exhausting. Look, almost none of us wanted him, but he's here now. Give him a chance to win you over. Is that really so much to ask?

No, it isn't too much to ask, and pretty much every single poster on here has said they'll give him a chance.

However, giving him a chance and pretending his previous record doesn't matter are two totally different things.

If people are going to consider his previous record then they should look at the total body of work, and not just concentrate on the 2 relegations that seem to occupy everybody's attention. While the 2 relegations don't look good on his CV, it doesn't 100% guarantee that this is what McLeish will be for the remainder of this managerial career and especially now being in an entirely different working environment and circumstance.

No, it doesn't guarantee he'll always be a failure, but by the same stretch it raises a big question over how he got the job in the first place, and what we should expect given said poor record.

which is why I'm keeping an open mind. Harry Redknapp got more than one team relegated, yet won the FA Cup (albeit having spent stupidly at Pompey) and then lands the Spurs job. He's done quite well. Now, I have no idea if AM can do the same, is capable of anything close to that, and we'd all probably be delighted if he could. But it shows that just because someone has failed in the past doesn't mean they haven't learnt a thing or two along the way to make them better. That's the position I'll take until he proves otherwise in his new role. If he shits the bed, I'll be the first to say "fair enough" because he'll be given the very best working conditions he's ever had as a manager. He has a massive chance to be the best he can be in his new role.

[Toronto Villa]

We need to move on and stop whinging and fucking moaning about something we can't change.

Does this mean that I can't whinge and moan if McLeish plays Heskey? Because I doubt that I'll be able to influence team selections.

It's the common line when people who don't think we should be critical of anything the club say come out with when people say things they don't like to hear.

If we stopped moaning and whingeing (and by extension, talking) about things we can't change, then there would be no point in this place.

There are clearly some people on here who are unhappy about pretty much everything.

There are also some people who, were the club to institute a policy of beheading a puppy on the centre spot before every game, would support it.

They're all perfectly entitled to have they say, and I imagine this place would be a lot more boring if we all shut up talking about stuff we can't influence.

It's not just a case of whinging and moaning. It's about how long do you do it for? What does it ultimately achieve? I wasn't happy with the appointment but unless we can physically change it then how does it really help 3 weeks or so on? The club appointed him, people complained and rightly so. It went a little quiet and then started up again following the settlement. But at some point we have to move on. Maybe it's just me, but unless something concrete came from it, I don't see the point of beating what is a very dead horse.

[hilts_coolerking]

It's not just a case of whinging and moaning. It's about how long do you do it for? What does it ultimately achieve? I wasn't happy with the appointment but unless we can physically change it then how does it really help 3 weeks or so on? The club appointed him, people complained and rightly so. It went a little quiet and then started up again following the settlement. But at some point we have to move on. Maybe it's just me, but unless something concrete came from it, I don't see the point of beating what is a very dead horse.

No-one expects to "physically change" the McLeish appointment.  No-one expects discussion on here to "achieve" anything, in terms of influencing decisions made at the club.

H&V is a discussion forum not an action group, so to limit the discussion to things we can achieve or influence, or to limit the amount of time we're allowed to talk about them, seems counter-intuitive.  Besides, what does saying saying 'I give him the benefit of the doubt' actually "achieve"?  Fuck all is what.

It's the same every time on H&V: the same posters seek to limit what we can discuss, for no other reason that they get upset when critical views are expressed.  I recognise your point of view and right to express it, even if I disagree with it or find your manner irritating.  What I don't do is say "can you please talk about something else because it bothers me?"  I've said before, if you don't feel able to contribute to a thread, other than to say 'this thread is boring', then perhaps it's best not to bother.