The Martin O'Neill thread (with added sacking #2188)

[olaftab]

£3.5m on Marlon Harewood.  That is all.

Carew for Baros.

What, that was a bad deal?  What did Baros ever do for Villa?  On the other hand, Carew, despite the fact that he blew hot and cold has been shown to be one of Villa's most successful recent aquisitions as far as strikers go.  I'd definitetely put Carew for Baros in the plus column for MON.

Agreed - I was countering the Harewood purchase with an excellent example on the flip side.

There is no flip side here. MON DID not sign Carew. The swap deal was done before his arrival.

[Dave]

£3.5m on Marlon Harewood.  That is all.

Carew for Baros.

What, that was a bad deal?  What did Baros ever do for Villa?  On the other hand, Carew, despite the fact that he blew hot and cold has been shown to be one of Villa's most successful recent aquisitions as far as strikers go.  I'd definitetely put Carew for Baros in the plus column for MON.

Agreed - I was countering the Harewood purchase with an excellent example on the flip side.

There is no flip side here. MON DID not sign Carew. The swap deal was done before his arrival.

Are you suggested O'Leary signed Carew? And we just didn't bother buying him a plane ticket for another six months?

I can't say I've heard this particular theory before.

[Dave Clark Five]

Good riddance to the Poison Dwarf.

[pauliewalnuts]

Although I am very far from being one of MON's bigger fans, I can think of things he got right.

He gave us some self belief, he got decent results out of (some, if nothing like all) average players, he got another year out of Barry and then decent money for him at the end of it, and I understand why he did what he did in Moscow.

The problem is that the wider picture reflects pretty poorly on him.

Ultimately, managers are to a large event judged by their legacy, and MON's legacy has proven to be a fragile house of cards which he clearly knew was going to collapse, hence him scarpering when he did, and which has left us insolvent and established as relegation strugglers.

Lerner is far from excluded from the blame, though. It's all fine and dandy to say of ourselves "we weren't moaning when we were spending the money", but then again, we didn't see the whole financial picture. Lerner did, yet he still let things carry on as they did. Now we're flogging off what we can left right and centre to claw money back.

It's all very depressing. The way they abruptly dropped that "Proud History Bright Future" bullshit, yanked the General from the forums, and started flogging off the family silver just says it all.

Ever feel like you've been swindled?

[Sexual Ealing]

Ultimately, managers are to a large event judged by their legacy

Ultimately, managers are to a large event judged by their legacy

Are they? Since when? Clough's 'legacy' was terrible and he's rightly considered a genius.

It doesn't matter what happens at Man Utd after Ferguson goes, he'll still be revered.

Matt Busby's side were relegated pretty swiftly after he went and, again, nobody blames him.

Liverpool still haven't recovered since Dalgliesh Mk1 left and I get the impression that they're still keen on him up there.

I can't think of a single manager who's been juudged on their legacy above their time in charge.

Not that the issues you highlight in the rest of your post are without merit, mind.

[Sexual Ealing]

Sorry, for the quote disaster.

[Steve R]

Ultimately, managers are to a large event judged by their legacy

Are they? Since when? Clough's 'legacy' was terrible and he's rightly considered a genius.

It doesn't matter what happens at Man Utd after Ferguson goes, he'll still be revered.

Matt Busby's side were relegated pretty swiftly after he went and, again, nobody blames him.

Liverpool still haven't recovered since Dalgliesh Mk1 left and I get the impression that they're still keen on him up there.

I can't think of a single manager who's been juudged on their legacy above their time in charge.

Not that the issues you highlight in the rest of your post are without merit, mind.

You have chosen three very extreme cases of outstanding achievement.

If O'Neill had won the League and European Cup for us and/or made us the best supported club in the land he would have been able to leave with the coffers empty and the tea lady with a dose of clap by way of a legacy, he would still have been revered.

Then again, you could argue that is legacy as much as it is achievement. Ramsay, McGregor and Rinder achieved a lot, but their greatest achievement was the legacy they left, which is still with us. Take a look at Small Heath, that could have been us.

O'Neill had a better chance than almost anybody - money, authority and time. If it weren't for the state of the accounts and threads like this, just two and a half years on you'd hardly know he'd been here.

[eamonn]

I understand why some defended him, especially those that attended away games. Away from home, you don't care how you get the result. You spend a lot of money getting there, expensive ticket prices and a few drinks before, not to mention the poor weather conditions you may face. It's generally blind faith but under MON we generally got a result away from home.

At home was a different story. Despite getting in some great attendances over his rein, the football seemed to get worse not better. It's easy to say teams "park the bus" but that doesn't defend the cluelessness of his tactics. I say tactics in the phural but in reality it was a tactic, the same tactic he's now using at Sunderland - get the ball out to the wingers. Yes, he managed to beat the Rags time and time again but I'm Villa not a Nose and there's more to my season that playing them.

Spot on and I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned much up to now. The final two seasons of his reign, 08/09 and 09/10 when we were fighting for 4th place up until May, saw extremely average results and performances at VP. I'd go as far to say that season-ticket holders would have been more than entitled to feel they had been given a raw deal. We won less than half our matches and the goal average wasn't much to write home about either.

The spawny 0-1 wins at the likes of Hull and Portsmouth with the one lightning-quick counter attack that came off and then spending the rest of the game defending for our lives like a League Two club was not lost on me at the time and I often wondered how long it would be before we would get found out.

There were some far more impressive away days, mentioned before now, but in general terms we were a team whose attacking prowess was built almost solely on abilities from set-pieces and counter-attacks. Opening teams up, patient build-up play, incisive and quick passing, through balls etc. were never really in our arsenal under him and it's what distinguished us from being a decent side to what could have been, with a bit of ingenuity, a great one.

[Sexual Ealing]

Ultimately, managers are to a large event judged by their legacy

Are they? Since when? Clough's 'legacy' was terrible and he's rightly considered a genius.

It doesn't matter what happens at Man Utd after Ferguson goes, he'll still be revered.

Matt Busby's side were relegated pretty swiftly after he went and, again, nobody blames him.

Liverpool still haven't recovered since Dalgliesh Mk1 left and I get the impression that they're still keen on him up there.

I can't think of a single manager who's been juudged on their legacy above their time in charge.

Not that the issues you highlight in the rest of your post are without merit, mind.

You have chosen three very extreme cases of outstanding achievement.

If O'Neill had won the League and European Cup for us and/or made us the best supported club in the land he would have been able to leave with the coffers empty and the tea lady with a dose of clap by way of a legacy, he would still have been revered.

Then again, you could argue that is legacy as much as it is achievement. Ramsay, McGregor and Rinder achieved a lot, but their greatest achievement was the legacy they left, which is still with us. Take a look at Small Heath, that could have been us.

O'Neill had a better chance than almost anybody - money, authority and time. If it weren't for the state of the accounts and threads like this, just two and a half years on you'd hardly know he'd been here.

I deliberately chose extreme cases because that's what you do if you see a flaw in logic - extreme cases expose the line of thought more clearly. It's obvious who left a positive legacy, less so who didn't. That's the point I was picking up on.

[Walmley_Villa]

Apparently there is a Times article today about What has wrong for MoN at Sunderland - I don't have an online subscription so haven't seen it?

[Concrete John]

I understand why some defended him, especially those that attended away games. Away from home, you don't care how you get the result. You spend a lot of money getting there, expensive ticket prices and a few drinks before, not to mention the poor weather conditions you may face. It's generally blind faith but under MON we generally got a result away from home.

At home was a different story. Despite getting in some great attendances over his rein, the football seemed to get worse not better. It's easy to say teams "park the bus" but that doesn't defend the cluelessness of his tactics. I say tactics in the phural but in reality it was a tactic, the same tactic he's now using at Sunderland - get the ball out to the wingers. Yes, he managed to beat the Rags time and time again but I'm Villa not a Nose and there's more to my season that playing them.

Spot on and I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned much up to now. The final two seasons of his reign, 08/09 and 09/10 when we were fighting for 4th place up until May, saw extremely average results and performances at VP. I'd go as far to say that season-ticket holders would have been more than entitled to feel they had been given a raw deal. We won less than half our matches and the goal average wasn't much to write home about either.

The spawny 0-1 wins at the likes of Hull and Portsmouth with the one lightning-quick counter attack that came off and then spending the rest of the game defending for our lives like a League Two club was not lost on me at the time and I often wondered how long it would be before we would get found out.

There were some far more impressive away days, mentioned before now, but in general terms we were a team whose attacking prowess was built almost solely on abilities from set-pieces and counter-attacks. Opening teams up, patient build-up play, incisive and quick passing, through balls etc. were never really in our arsenal under him and it's what distinguished us from being a decent side to what could have been, with a bit of ingenuity, a great one.

I think it's harsh to call them 'spawny' when we had such a long established away record.  Some were easy wins by a few goals, other a bit tighter, but when you won away as much as we did it can only be due being a VERY good away side.

[kippaxvilla2]

Ultimately, managers are to a large event judged by their legacy

Are they? Since when? Clough's 'legacy' was terrible and he's rightly considered a genius.

It doesn't matter what happens at Man Utd after Ferguson goes, he'll still be revered.

Matt Busby's side were relegated pretty swiftly after he went and, again, nobody blames him.

Liverpool still haven't recovered since Dalgliesh Mk1 left and I get the impression that they're still keen on him up there.

I can't think of a single manager who's been juudged on their legacy above their time in charge.

Not that the issues you highlight in the rest of your post are without merit, mind.

You have chosen three very extreme cases of outstanding achievement.

If O'Neill had won the League and European Cup for us and/or made us the best supported club in the land he would have been able to leave with the coffers empty and the tea lady with a dose of clap by way of a legacy, he would still have been revered.

Then again, you could argue that is legacy as much as it is achievement. Ramsay, McGregor and Rinder achieved a lot, but their greatest achievement was the legacy they left, which is still with us. Take a look at Small Heath, that could have been us.

O'Neill had a better chance than almost anybody - money, authority and time. If it weren't for the state of the accounts and threads like this, just two and a half years on you'd hardly know he'd been here.

Ron Saunders' team was relegated within 5 years, I don't hear many people going on about how poor his legacy was.

[maidstonevillain]

Didn't it win the European Cup after he left. That's not a legacy to be sniffed at.

Further edit. Just the after should be in bold.

[paul_e]

Legacy includes achievements though.

Fergies legacy at united won't be the players in the squad, it will be the stacks of trophies in the cabinet.  If he leaves a strong young squad for the next guy then all the better.

[Chris Jameson]

Ron Saunders' team was relegated within 5 years, I don't hear many people going on about how poor his legacy was.

Stainrod, Cooper, Keown, Thompson, Norton, Hodge,Aspinall, Elliot etc all played starring roles in the League and European cup winning sides built by Saunders of course.