Clubs in trouble

[peter w]

That's not just relegation though - they gambled on high wages which they couldn't sustain. going down in itself shouldn't be a problem as apart from the gates and advertising revenue/sponsorship Sky's parachute payment should keep the wolf from the door.

the problem is that in today's money mad football its not monet men in control of club's finances in the main. that's when clubs get into trouble.

[Risso]

It's impossible though Peter.  As Villadawg says, the only way you could work it would be to share out the TV money more equitably.

[Dave Cooper please]

So taking the Kings Lynn example peter, would you have given them the money to pay off HMRC?

Can't speak for Peter but yes, if I was in charge of the hardship fund Kings Lynn would get the cash.
KL's problems stemmed from a takeover by a group that thought that they could sell their ground for housing, it turned out that the ground is council owned and on a lease where it cannot be used for anything other than recreation for lots of years, the new owners lost interest, refused to make any improvements to a ground they no longer had any real interest in, and decided to throw what cash they had at trying to get promoted to the league (was never going to happen!).  
As it happens, their ground failed it's grading and they were forcibly demoted to the Southern League on ground grading rules, the new owners bailed out and KL went under.
New people came in, the fans did their best, but ultimately too much was owed to to many, even administration didn't help, that only covers football related debts, which were paid off at 10p in the pound, the HMRC wanted their £64,000 in full, fans and sponsers raised half, not enough, Kings Lynn are no more.

[TheSandman]

Wasn't Joachim there at the time they went under?

[Dave Cooper please]

Wasn't Joachim there at the time they went under?

He was!
But fair play to him he was doing his coaching badges and playing for next to nothing.

[pestria]

A couple of additional thoughts on why market forces should be applied to football clubs:

Consider the example of Portsmouth - while they were spending thousands on players, the likes of Albion and Blues were getting relegated because they couldn't afford to compete.  In the process they lost considerable income and I'm sure many of their fans would have preferred to see them playing in the higher division.  So surely what goes around comes around - if Portsmouth 'do a Leeds' or even go out of business, isn't this fair enough?  Isn't fair that the remaining clubs who've been better run get promoted with a fair chance of staying up?

If you accept the above then why shouldn't it apply to the lower leagues as well? i.e. Isn't it fair and proper that clubs like Kings Lynn go out of business and not receive a helping hand enabling them to  stay in a league higher than they're otherwise entitled to?  Why would you favour a club like Kings Lynn and its supporters over those of their rivals who might take their place?

[Dave Cooper please]

If you accept the above then why shouldn't it apply to the lower leagues as well? i.e. Isn't it fair and proper that clubs like Kings Lynn go out of business and not receive a helping hand enabling them to  stay in a league higher than they're otherwise entitled to?  Why would you favour a club like Kings Lynn and its supporters over those of their rivals who might take their place?

I doubt any team's fans would complain if the consequences of getting a handout from the hardship fund was automatic relegation down a couple of divisions, in fact it makes sense not only because they will be more financially solvent in a lower league but also as a bit of a punishment for overspending in the first place, but in Kings Lynn's case the option wasn't there, they have gone completely.

[hawkeye]

Every 20 Prem clubs at the start of each season donate £500,000 into the fund straight from the TV money. Or they get Sky to put it straight into fund.

At the Stockport are not insolvent so they and other clubs could get the grant before they'd get into that position.

yeh right that would sort it out, virtually every club would be in a position to demand the money and there would not be enough to go round, so a director who is lending the club £10 mil withdraws it, the club would get the money right? there are so many wholes in your idea, also i think you need at least an understanding of finance, company law and insolvency law before you can be taken seriously

That wouldn't be allowed to happen because as I said, the club would have to open their books to scrutiny. It wouldn't be hard to spot a Bonser at Brighton trying to shaft the club.

No, I don't understand company/insolvency laws but there are enough people better placed than me who do who could make this work. The money could be paid directly to the inland revenue from the fund I guess, but there arse ways to make it work.

Are you seriously saying we should just shrug our shoulders and leave them to it? When you see a club looking seriously close to death, or like Kings Lynn and recently Scarborough, fold completely, you don't care. And don't regret that we, Aston Villa, and other clubs in the top flight don't seem to feel we have contributed in some way.

Or even if you think we haven't, do not we, the richest clubs have a duty to care for the smaller ones? However possible? Football is not just any other business so cannot be looked at as such. If it is then businessmen should take over the running of the whole game.

I just said your ideas are unworkable, thanks for the lecture

[peter w]

And I'm making an empassioned case for the defence. if you think that's a lecture then I hope your football club dies one day and then you'd be sorry.

I wouldn't tie the hardship fund with automatic relegation as that is unworkable. The hardship fund is an altruistic set-up to help the lower clubs and has no official capacity.

There should, maybe, be a repayment scheme so that its not just a handout. Kings lynn, for example, would have tio pay an interest free repayment plan of a certain amount over a certain period. Not enough to make them poor but low enough to not cripple them.

As I've said I'm not a moneyman but refuse to believe that this is not practicable. If there was enough will this could be done. If King's Lynn, for example, needed money to survibve then as long as the money they received was legal I'm not sure why insolvency laws and such like would come into play. not sure why its impossible either.

All it takes is someone somewhere to want it to work and it will.

[pauliewalnuts]

All it takes is someone somewhere to want it to work and it will.

It needs more than someone to want it to work, it needs buy-in from lots of different parties, all of whom have looking after number one as their prime motive, which is why it falls at the first hurdle, no matter how noble the intentions.

[peter w]

All it takes is someone somewhere to want it to work and it will.

It needs more than someone to want it to work, it needs buy-in from lots of different parties, all of whom have looking after number one as their prime motive, which is why it falls at the first hurdle, no matter how noble the intentions.

Well that's a given. But for that wheel to start turning it takes someone to give it a shove. There are more people prepared to shake there heads and wring their hands then there are those that are trying to look for a way that it could work.

Clubs on their own won't want to give up any of their cash so unless we have a charitable soul shouting from the rooftops, it needs to be fans that need to take the lead and impress the urgency for this to happen to all our various clubs.

Maybe not under this guise but something. Or are we prepared just to watch football teeter on the top heavy money loaded juggernauts at the top whilst the ones underneath one by one disappear. because as much as we seemingly want to look for why this shouldn't work this will go lik edominoes. The first club to go in the professional leagues in the current climate will see that domino effect take one or two other clubs with them as creditors get jittery and think they will lose their money.

This is a very serious time for many lower league clubs and whilst we are in our nice big house feeling warm, if we can't be bothered by the plight of those who are looking down the barrel of a gun then more shame us.

[pdiddybaby]

Now Cardiff face a winding up order from HMRC, no real surprise as I just can not understand how they could have afforded the new stadium.

[Villa'Zawg]

All it takes is someone somewhere to want it to work and it will.

It needs more than someone to want it to work, it needs buy-in from lots of different parties, all of whom have looking after number one as their prime motive, which is why it falls at the first hurdle, no matter how noble the intentions.

Well that's a given. But for that wheel to start turning it takes someone to give it a shove. There are more people prepared to shake there heads and wring their hands then there are those that are trying to look for a way that it could work.

Clubs on their own won't want to give up any of their cash so unless we have a charitable soul shouting from the rooftops, it needs to be fans that need to take the lead and impress the urgency for this to happen to all our various clubs.

Maybe not under this guise but something. Or are we prepared just to watch football teeter on the top heavy money loaded juggernauts at the top whilst the ones underneath one by one disappear. because as much as we seemingly want to look for why this shouldn't work this will go lik edominoes. The first club to go in the professional leagues in the current climate will see that domino effect take one or two other clubs with them as creditors get jittery and think they will lose their money.

This is a very serious time for many lower league clubs and whilst we are in our nice big house feeling warm, if we can't be bothered by the plight of those who are looking down the barrel of a gun then more shame us.

But the Premier League clubs are already providing between £11m and £33m to the football League each season. Where do your draw the line with handouts and begin looking for different solutions?

[peter w]

When aviable alternative is put forward that is practicable.

The whole point of this is that it is based on the Prem clubs showing an altruistic benevolent side and wanting to make a difference.

if they won't, and if fans don't really care if they do or don't, then it will never get off the ground.

[pdiddybaby]

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/sport/667875/POMPEYrsquoS-ownership-has-been-thrown-into-fresh-doubt-after-Israeli-businessmen-Roni-Mana-and-Yuram-Yossifoff-were-revealed-as-the-new-powerbrokers-at-Fratton-Park.html

this article confirms that things at Portsmouth are far from clear and in fact the PL should launch an immediate investigation.