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Author Topic: Sir Graham Taylor  (Read 116280 times)

Offline Demitri_C

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Re: Sir Graham Taylor
« Reply #615 on: November 22, 2024, 07:29:54 AM »
Even though the second time was a disaster he is still a hero here

How was his second time a disaster? It wasn't good obviously but hardly a disaster.
It was bad when you compare to his first time. Also one of the worst home nights in history losing to blose at home. It never should have happened him coming back again to manage.

I think it was more sentiment. The saying never go back couldnt have been truer in that instacr. But for me he is still a legend

edit to your other point clampy about not going down. Taylor resigned very quickly for the good of the club and fans otherwise it would have got a lot worse for him. Alot of fans were furious after the  2-0 loss at home.

That was one of the darkest days ive seen at villa with the toxic atmosphere and trouble at the game
« Last Edit: November 22, 2024, 07:32:15 AM by Demitri_C »

Online Clampy

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Re: Sir Graham Taylor
« Reply #616 on: November 22, 2024, 08:51:45 AM »
But it still wasn't the disaster you first claimed it was.

Online AV82EC

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Re: Sir Graham Taylor
« Reply #617 on: November 22, 2024, 09:22:29 AM »
Taylor’s second spell was ultimately a failure. In hindsight it was very much like the O’Neill appointment, he’d been out of mgmt for a while and the game had moved on. It struck me at the time as Ellis yet again stuck in his corner shop whilst others were looking ahead.

He did little at the back end of 01/02 after he took over in 7th place with a W3 D6 L6 record including winning the last two which saw us finish 8th.

The season after, 02/03, saw us limp along all season to 16th only 3pts above West Ham who went down on 42pts!

So much of that era was a missed opportunity as Ellis mismanaged the club from top to bottom.

Offline cdbearsfan

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Re: Sir Graham Taylor
« Reply #618 on: November 22, 2024, 09:25:45 AM »
O'Neill had been out of management just over a year, Taylor under a year.

Offline Risso

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Re: Sir Graham Taylor
« Reply #619 on: November 22, 2024, 09:29:39 AM »
It was an absolutely dreadful season. Awful football, dismal signings (UDLC, Kinsella etc) and the two humiliating defeats to SHA. Staying up by the skin of our teeth. Not a complete disaster as at least we weren't relegated, but as bad as you can get without actually going down.

Offline Meanwood Villa

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Re: Sir Graham Taylor
« Reply #620 on: November 22, 2024, 10:10:22 AM »
It was nothing like the O'Neill appointment at all

Online Nev

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Re: Sir Graham Taylor
« Reply #621 on: November 22, 2024, 10:15:52 AM »
However bad it was, nothing will diminish what Taylor did for us and cannot sully my personal memories of his first spell.

Whatever he did, he did in the best interest of the club, a man out of his time perhaps second time around but he held a genuine affection for us and you could always feel that. And he was an utter Gentleman, you can't say that of many people in the game these days, although the chap who holds the same position at the moment is the most obvious candidate.

Offline Demitri_C

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Re: Sir Graham Taylor
« Reply #622 on: November 22, 2024, 10:29:47 AM »
But it still wasn't the disaster you first claimed it was.
.agree to disagree mate. I think it was.  It was a short failure. If he stayed any longer i think we may have gone down.

The team was bad so not all on taylor worming under doug never easier either
« Last Edit: November 22, 2024, 10:36:14 AM by Demitri_C »

Online Dave

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Re: Sir Graham Taylor
« Reply #623 on: November 22, 2024, 11:02:21 AM »
It's an old article, but always worth posting now and again as a reminder of how he was:

Quote
On Graham Taylor, one of the true good guys

Here’s a piece of free advice; don’t become England manager. Granted, that little piece of sage wisdom will not apply to most of you, but it’s worth keeping in mind in case something improbable happens, or if you are a professional football manager. You might think you can do a decent job, but it will almost certainly not be decent enough.

For the England gig makes monkeys of the best men. Or, shall we say, it makes perceived monkeys of the best men. Bobby Robson was so sick of the way he was treated in the press that he binned it off before Italia 90, a successful tournament that if Bobby wasn’t such a lovely bloke, you would think was just one colossal ‘fuck you’ to the men from the papers. Steve McClaren became defined by an entirely sensible item of weather protection, Sven Goran Eriksson by Little Sven and Glenn Hoddle by some reprehensible views about karma and so forth. Even Fabio Capello, iron man of European football, couldn’t be arsed by the whole thing in the end. It is, as the old documentary said, an impossible job.

The subject of said documentary is probably the worst example of the whole thing. Graham Taylor was, as you’ll remember, reduced to a root vegetable on the front of the Sun after some admittedly abysmal showings in the World Cup qualifiers, his reaction to which was unfortunately captured on film for future generations to laugh at.

And, in fairness, watching a man who resembled a minor local councillor sidle up to a linesman to say “Tell your pal he’s just cost me my job” was, on some levels, quite funny. The problem is that this sort of thing has a habit of taking over the common image of person, to throw their previous achievements onto a bonfire like it’s some sort of schadenfreudean rewriting of history.

Because Taylor was, before being gobbled up by this dignity mincer that was and still is the England job, a seriously brilliant manager. His gig before being called to Lancaster Gate (ask your parents) was with Aston Villa, who he took from the Second Division to damn near winning the league in three seasons, but it was at Watford that his true, lasting achievement was, erm, achieved.

Taylor took over at Vicarage Road in 1977 when the Hornets were in the Fourth Division, having turned down top flight West Brom basically because they were rude in the manner they approached him. He told Elton John, who had recently become chairman of his boyhood club, that if they were in the First Division within ten years, that would represent success. He managed it in five.

And, once there, they implausibly finished second in their first season, only behind Bob Paisley’s Liverpool, irritating all and sundry along the way with their rather direct style of play. The following years saw them reach the third round of the UEFA Cup, make the FA Cup final in 1984 and the semi-final a couple of years later.

Taylor found a club in a mess, who had been bottom of the entire Football League in the season before he arrived, had no training ground and had to share billing with a greyhound track that encircled the pitch, which he promptly got rid of. “It’s either the dogs or me,” he told John. In a decade he took them to Wembley, Europe and close to the league title, finally leaving them ninth in the top flight, some 66 places higher than when he arrived. You’ll not find many people in Watford whose memory of Taylor is “Do I not like that.”

As well as all this though, Taylor just seems like a lovely bloke. In Lionel Birnie’s wonderful book ‘Enjoy The Game’, about Watford in the 1980s, there are countless stories that paint a picture of a kind, generous and generally just sensationally pleasant human being.

One that stands out is the time the club’s clapped-out Fiat Panda, used by the scouts to travel the country, finally gave in because someone forgot to put oil in the engine. Taylor called a staff meeting, at which the four scouts assumed they would be given a bill for the repair of the car, so they pre-emptively decided to split the £1,000 cost. They were handed four envelopes, but instead of invoices they contained plane tickets and reservations for a swanky hotel in Portugal. “This is just a thank you from the club for all your work,” said Taylor. “Take a break, take your wives, and enjoy yourselves.” Taylor even offered to look after their children for the week while they went away.

And there are so many more. After one rather chastening defeat, Taylor trained his players hard with double sessions for three days, before arriving to the training ground on the Thursday. “I was talking to Rita (his wife) last night,” he said, “and she thought perhaps I was being a bit hard on you and I agreed. So, get yourselves changed into your tracksuits and meet me at the hotel for a Champagne breakfast on me.” He threw in some jugs of lager to lighten the mood, too.

On another occasion, instead of a pre-season training session he took his players for a walk with their dogs then a pub lunch. When Watford sold Luther Blissett to AC Milan (a deal which involved a bloke who owned a local Italian restaurant as a go-between) for a then-hefty £1million in 1983, Taylor hugged the forward who’d been with him from the start and tears were shed. Paul Atkinson, a midfielder signed from Oldham, chose Watford over Nottingham Forest partly because Taylor knew all about his game and spent a long time explaining how he’d fit into his side, whereas Brian Clough gave him a drink and said Forest were “going to the Reeperbahn on our pre-season trip. You’re not a poof lad, are you?”

We could go on, with any number of stories about his managerial skills and simple good eggery. But for now, before England play and we watch the latest poor whelp flail in the pitiless seas of the national job, just enjoy these, and remember that Taylor wasn’t a punchline, and he certainly wasn’t a turnip.

Nick Miller

Online Clampy

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Re: Sir Graham Taylor
« Reply #624 on: November 22, 2024, 11:06:25 AM »
I've mentioned this a few times I'm sure but his book is very good.

Offline SoccerHQ

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Re: Sir Graham Taylor
« Reply #625 on: November 22, 2024, 11:35:27 PM »
Even though the second time was a disaster he is still a hero here

How was his second time a disaster? It wasn't good obviously but hardly a disaster.

It was a bit like Howard Kendall going back to Everton in the late 90s and nearly relegating them.

We were top 8 regulars under Gregory with lots of decent international players yet spent all that season in the bottom 6 so it was our worst league season since 1994/95.

Of course the two defeats to SHA pretty much bookmarked the season but there were some good wins and we were actually better at VP than in many of the previous years. One away win all year at Boro was the issue.

I do wonder what would've happened if he'd stayed on for a few more years and someone else had taken the England job in 1990 given Howard Wilkinson won the league with Leeds in 1992 so that could've been a season to challenge again given we finished 2nd the next year.

Offline SoccerHQ

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Re: Sir Graham Taylor
« Reply #626 on: November 22, 2024, 11:41:59 PM »
If I recall correctly, SGT just couldn't get the players in that he wanted.  He was after a midfield pairing, who had some experience of playing next to one another and just couldn't persuade them to come.  Matt Holland was one of them. Instead we had to take Kinsella and Leonardsen instead.  I think that way the league had moved on had caught SGT out.  I remember him speaking to a paper or TV programme about it.  At least he kept us up, oh, and had Ellis to contend with!

Big problem was the successful combinations were suddenly broken up. Mellberg-Alpay was really good the previous season and one of those defensive combinations that just worked. Alpay came back from the World Cup wanting to play for Bayern Munich which wasn't ideal and he played about five games.

Angel-Vassell did really well in 01/02, scored about 30 goals between them but that was quickly broken up and Allback and a young Crouch just weren't quite up to it.

Ian Taylor basically coming to the end at that point also created a void in terms of goalscoring from midfield and Boateng was also a bigger miss than people realised so the central midfield area became a bit like our final years in the premier league up to 2016, completely neglected. Merson also declined and then left that summer and we all know what a creative hub he was in that era.

One good thing though was showing faith in the younger players as Jlloyd had his breakthrough season  and Barry had a really good season after falling out of favour with Gregory for some reason. Stefan Moore also played a fair amount.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2024, 11:48:54 PM by SoccerHQ »

Offline SoccerHQ

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Re: Sir Graham Taylor
« Reply #627 on: November 22, 2024, 11:47:16 PM »
It was nothing like the O'Neill appointment at all

Yeah I don't get the comparison. MON at the time was genuinely exciting as he'd proved at Leicester and Celtic he could overachieve with trophy wins and good Cup runs so exactly what we needed with the Lerner takeover.

I'm pretty sure SGT had actually retired as a manager as he stood down at Watford and then we appointed him as a non-exec director, bit like the role Brian Little has at the club now so he was around for matchdays but I think people just assumed he'd be a caretaker for a few games and it was a bit of a shock he got the job full time again.

Peter Schmeichel was scathing of him in his book. Rated Gregory pretty highly but wasn't having SGT at all. He also said he thought he was going to get a chance to caretaker for a few weeks but not sure how that would've worked with him still playing at that point.

Offline Risso

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Re: Sir Graham Taylor
« Reply #628 on: November 23, 2024, 11:46:58 AM »
O'Neill had left Celtic to care for his wife, who was suffering with cancer. He was still seen as being at the height of his powers when he did so. Taylor came out of retirement as SHQ rightly points out. He was probably tempted by Ellis, who no doubt wanted somebody on the cheap and who he thought might quell some fan unrest by bringing back a club legend. It didn't work, and I seem to recall Taylor not so-subtly having a go at Ellis after he'd left.

Offline dave.woodhall

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Re: Sir Graham Taylor
« Reply #629 on: November 23, 2024, 12:16:53 PM »
Sir Graham became manager because he said he had unfinished business and he'd never had a real crack at the Premier League. First time round there'd been nothing and he started from scratch, in 2002 there were splits from top to bottom - directors, employees, players, supporters. It was an impossible job.

 


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