Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: kippaxvilla2 on May 14, 2023, 12:21:44 AM
-
No not that walk in New York.
Ours. It’s going to get worked out right? Especially with no pressure on the ball. Sort of thing you can get away with as a one off? So organised we can continue with it?
-
Well, if Ian Wright, Wright, Wright says so. ::)
I'm happy to let Unai decide if it's going to be "figured out".
-
Admittedly it was watching those highlights that made me think. By the way what the fcuk were they thinking of putting us on 2nd last?!
-
Long may they continue to disrespect our manager and his tactics, we’ll continue to enjoy the wins.
Unlike Gerrard and his rigid auxiliary full backs nonsense we have a manager who studies the game and makes a plan as appropriate…they can focus on the high line but ignore the job McGinn did on Kane etc…keep that disrespect flowing
-
It worked very well today as we dominated midfield until they brought that sub we were once after on.
Bissouma (looked it up).
I very much doubt Unai will use it to the same extent at Anfield. He knows a thing or two about a thing or two.
-
Number of domestic and UEFA trophies won as a manager:
Ian Wright Wright Wright and the Crisp Salesman - Nil
Unai Emery -10.
I know who I'd be listening to when it comes to coaching tips.
-
How wonderful it would be to go to Anfield and smash those twats and their gobshite of a manager.
-
Wright's a striker, he looks at the high line and sees opportunity. Then the flag goes up.
Everything in football is a risk, but our squeezing the play with this massively ballsy ploy is what's got us a billion wins, and what makes us so unpleasant to play against. Sure, it'll get done from time to time, but we've conceded something like 6 goals in 13 games with it, so yeah, it's not bad.
-
That graphic they showed with offsides since Emery took over was remarkable. The teams in 2nd and 3rd had around 65 each, we were miles out infront with 90 odd. What discipline.
-
Well, if Ian Wright, Wright, Wright says so. ::)
I'm happy to let Unai decide if it's going to be "figured out".
Wrighty is a lovely man. Despite his football success a real down to earth fella. During 2006 WC we camped in the Hotel Adlon bar/restaurant everyday in between matches. BBC crew were in a studio just to our left. During the day only Wrighty and Stubbs stopped by to chat and usually for a reasonable period. Shearer, Lineker and Nuggent were too far up their arse to acknowledge us. Wrighty talks well as a layman but really knows F’all about football tactics. He’s a simple lad.
Having said that Ten Hag has done us twice this season exposing our hi line but generally Unai has maintained the discipline in all other matches.
-
It works as we have the results to prove it.
You can single out exceptions when it hasn't but that applies to all parts of the game.
Unai is probably working on a hybrid highline 2.0 as we speak for Anfield!
What a time to be a Villa fan.
-
We are much better at it than we where under the previous manager. When we do it it gives us a good game where we often will dominate the opposition with play in their half. One of my friends who supports Man U ... was - after our game against them recently, on about our naive playing a high line against Rashford - as he dosent see the bigger picture :) There is the danger of course - the oppositions do get opportunities with a ball to run after
-
It worked very well today as we dominated midfield until they brought that sub we were once after on.
Bissouma (looked it up).
I very much doubt Unai will use it to the same extent at Anfield. He knows a thing or two about a thing or two.
Yeah it didn't work quite as well in the first half at Old Trafford recently when it looked like Manchester United were going to get in almost every time a ball was played over the top. Saying that, we fixed it second half and they hardly got in once.
As Ian Wright pointed out on MOTD, it worked mainly because the runs of the Spurs attackers were pretty poorly timed.
-
You'd have thought that Ian Wright as an ex-Arsenal player would know a bit about the offside trap.
-
I think it’s incredible that teams have not worked it out yet.
I think it was decent analysis on MOTD.
Manure got around it by the long diadagonal, other methods are to have 2 runners 1 deliberately off side the second making the later run, but you have got to get the weight of the pass and the timing of the runs right and Spurs did neither yesterday.
-
I think Liverpool on Boxing Day and Yanited at Old Trafford are the only teams to bully us on it so far.
-
Did you all see Konsa get some very animated coaching tips just as the second half was about to kick off? Us mere mortals won’t know what was said but Konsa was noticeably deeper when we had possession in the 2nd half but still was very drilled for the high line.
-
With Emi playing a sweeper/goalie it lessens the risk.
But, I wouldn't play the high line in every match.
Horses for courses.
-
It worked very well today as we dominated midfield until they brought that sub we were once after on.
Bissouma (looked it up).
I very much doubt Unai will use it to the same extent at Anfield. He knows a thing or two about a thing or two.
Yeah it didn't work quite as well in the first half at Old Trafford recently when it looked like Manchester United were going to get in almost every time a ball was played over the top. Saying that, we fixed it second half and they hardly got in once.
As Ian Wright pointed out on MOTD, it worked mainly because the runs of the Spurs attackers were pretty poorly timed.
Nope, calling bullshit on that, you don't get as many offside in your favour over a run of 20 odd games because the strikers of one of those teams got their timings wrong and calling it as such is lazy. It has worked for us against numerous teams because we're good at it, because our defenders trust each other and because we have a keeper who is fantastic at either patrolling the space behind the high line or making the one-on-one that follows very difficult.
Putting it entirely on the other team having a bad day is just another example of people who are paid to analyse matches failing to see beyond "a big 6 club lost so they must've played poorly" when the evidence is that we played them off the park and deserved to win by a lot more than 1.
-
The high line makes me nervous, but, is it any more nerve wracking than dropping another twenty yards and letting the opposition have a bit of territory just outside the final third? I'm not sure it is. The law of averages suggests that if we keep doing it, someone will successfully break the line and score. Because no defensive formation is perfect, and sometimes good attacking play gets rewarded.
But right now, we are clearly doing it very well indeed, and long may it continue!
-
Son is a player whose movement has troubled us over the last few years - particularly at VP. And Ingerland captain Kane, like Rooney before him, has something of a football brain if not an actual brain.
So if we're catching players of that calibre out to go with all the others we've done that to this season we must be doing something right.
The potential issue comes if we attempt to remodel or intergrate new players into Young or Konsa's positions next season. Young was good enough to play at the back for high functioning Serie A team in his mid 30s and Konsa has got better as the season has progressed.
-
Son is a player whose movement has troubled us over the last few years - particularly at VP. And Ingerland captain Kane, like Rooney before him, has something of a football brain if not an actual brain.
So if we're catching players of that calibre out to go with all the others we've done that to this season we must be doing something right.
The potential issue comes if we attempt to remodel or intergrate new players into Young or Konsa's positions next season. Young was good enough to play at the back for high functioning Serie A team in his mid 30s and Konsa has got better as the season has progressed.
The last 5-6 matches definitely. His last obvious mistake was the Bournemouth one where Martinez held up the attacker long enough for Mings to come back and get a foot in.
-
It worked very well today as we dominated midfield until they brought that sub we were once after on.
Bissouma (looked it up).
I very much doubt Unai will use it to the same extent at Anfield. He knows a thing or two about a thing or two.
Yeah it didn't work quite as well in the first half at Old Trafford recently when it looked like Manchester United were going to get in almost every time a ball was played over the top. Saying that, we fixed it second half and they hardly got in once.
As Ian Wright pointed out on MOTD, it worked mainly because the runs of the Spurs attackers were pretty poorly timed.
Nope, calling bullshit on that, you don't get as many offside in your favour over a run of 20 odd games because the strikers of one of those teams got their timings wrong and calling it as such is lazy. It has worked for us against numerous teams because we're good at it, because our defenders trust each other and because we have a keeper who is fantastic at either patrolling the space behind the high line or making the one-on-one that follows very difficult.
Putting it entirely on the other team having a bad day is just another example of people who are paid to analyse matches failing to see beyond "a big 6 club lost so they must've played poorly" when the evidence is that we played them off the park and deserved to win by a lot more than 1.
100%
Why is it that as soon as we get the big win according to pundits its because they've had an off day.
I'm guessing that doing the double over Spurs, beating United and totally flattening Newcastle was down to opposition off days then?
-
You wouldn't have to dig too deep into this site's archive to find our own people calling us lucky.
-
You wouldn't have to dig too deep into this site's archive to find our own people calling us lucky.
Yeah and Sexual is right. We're a bit sensitive with the media reaction. They're never going to forensically go into things the way we do on here.
-
You wouldn't have to dig too deep into this site's archive to find our own people calling us lucky.
Yeah and Sexual is right. We're a bit sensitive with the media reaction. They're never going to forensically go into things the way we do on here.
I'm not sure that is relevant in response to us talking about Wrights analysis of our high line working because Spurs had an off day. As I said, if it was a one-off then he'd maybe have a point but we've clearly beenusing the same tactic for months and, over that time, have about the best defence in the league.
-
You wouldn't have to dig too deep into this site's archive to find our own people calling us lucky.
Yeah and Sexual is right. We're a bit sensitive with the media reaction. They're never going to forensically go into things the way we do on here.
I'm not sure that is relevant in response to us talking about Wrights analysis of our high line working because Spurs had an off day. As I said, if it was a one-off then he'd maybe have a point but we've clearly beenusing the same tactic for months and, over that time, have about the best defence in the league.
I like Ian Wright, I don’t particularly mind Linekar, but it seemed a really lazy and odd bit of analysis. Lazy in terms of everything you’ve already pointed out Paul, so I won’t repeat. It was also odd though as it was in the context of no other analysis of the game at all. I understand there is very limited time, but that as the only bit of analysis gives precisely the impression that Spurs bad day against our high line was the only reason we won. Even if they had bothered to mention McGinn’s marshalling of Kane, Ramseys movement or Mings virtually flawless performance, it would of added balance, even if the overall point about the high line was wildly incorrect.
And Risso is correct, how can Wright not have an understanding of this having played for years in the same team as Adams, Keown, Winterburn and Dixon?
Saying all of this, being up against, Salah, Nunez, Diaz and Jota and all their pace will be a bit nerve wracking next week.
-
Saying all of this, being up against, Salah, Nunez, Diaz and Jota and all their pace will be a bit nerve wracking next week.
I wouldn't be surprised to see a resurrection of our back six.
-
Saying all of this, being up against, Salah, Nunez, Diaz and Jota and all their pace will be a bit nerve wracking next week.
I wouldn't be surprised to see a resurrection of our back six.
Possibly. Heading pre match thread territory here, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see Kamara coming for Bailey with McGinn moving out to the right, to solidify us a bit more.
-
You wouldn't have to dig too deep into this site's archive to find our own people calling us lucky.
Yeah and Sexual is right. We're a bit sensitive with the media reaction. They're never going to forensically go into things the way we do on here.
I'm not sure that is relevant in response to us talking about Wrights analysis of our high line working because Spurs had an off day. As I said, if it was a one-off then he'd maybe have a point but we've clearly beenusing the same tactic for months and, over that time, have about the best defence in the league.
It wasn't so much that he was saying that Spurs had an off day, he was pointing out that Son's runs weren't great and what he'd have done to counter the high line.
As you say above though, the statistics in terms of goals conceded and the number of times opponents have been caught offside suggest that it's been a very effective tactic. In fact the first half against Manchester United is the only time I can recall us having some difficulties with it. I still think that might have had more to do with Casemiro having too much time on the ball to pick his passes more than anything.
-
We get what we deserve from the media. If we become relevant they will pay us attention. If we threaten the status quo we will be patronized. If we start to win things we will get loads of attention. We should be careful what we wish for as it relates to being spoken about.
-
Got the impression that Citeh were praised in last night's MOTD for their use of the high line.
Funny how pundits see us differently.
-
When Cash is fit, we have 3 (with Mings & Moreno), that are very quick on their feet without the ball, add that to Emi being a sweeper-keeper, then you can see why our high line is well drilled & effective.
It also shows how Young has deputised so well in place of Cash.
-
I think it will get found out at times. If a team has a wave of 2-3 runners staggering their runs it's very difficult to counter that if the player on the ball is quality and we give them time. I agree with Wright, Son was absolutely dreadful.
It's a high risk strategy and at times we will need to rely on Martinez probably being the best keeper in the world at one on ones.
I fear for us if we try t at Liverpool.
-
I think it will get found out at times. If a team has a wave of 2-3 runners staggering their runs it's very difficult to counter that if the player on the ball is quality and we give them time. I agree with Wright, Son was absolutely dreadful.
It's a high risk strategy and at times we will need to rely on Martinez probably being the best keeper in the world at one on ones.
I fear for us if we try t at Liverpool.
I'd love it if we rolled up next week barely moving from the edge of our box in a low block except to pick them off on the counter. I doubt it but it would be be both very funny and very impressive if we just switched to completely different tactics effectively.
-
I think it will get found out at times. If a team has a wave of 2-3 runners staggering their runs it's very difficult to counter that if the player on the ball is quality and we give them time. I agree with Wright, Son was absolutely dreadful.
It's a high risk strategy and at times we will need to rely on Martinez probably being the best keeper in the world at one on ones.
I fear for us if we try t at Liverpool.
I'd love it if we rolled up next week barely moving from the edge of our box in a low block except to pick them off on the counter. I doubt it but it would be be both very funny and very impressive if we just switched to completely different tactics effectively.
I think we probably will.
-
When Cash is fit, we have 3 (with Mings & Moreno), that are very quick on their feet without the ball, add that to Emi being a sweeper-keeper, then you can see why our high line is well drilled & effective.
It also shows how Young has deputised so well in place of Cash.
Weirdly I reckon Konsa would be the quickest of the defenders in a flat race (which is why players struggle to dribble past him) but his rections let him down at times so he gets caught on his heels.
-
When Cash is fit, we have 3 (with Mings & Moreno), that are very quick on their feet without the ball, add that to Emi being a sweeper-keeper, then you can see why our high line is well drilled & effective.
It also shows how Young has deputised so well in place of Cash.
Weirdly I reckon Konsa would be the quickest of the defenders in a flat race (which is why players struggle to dribble past him) but his rections let him down at times so he gets caught on his heels.
He's been much, much better of late though, and you know he's playing well when he keeps getting between the attacker and the ball and slowing up to win a free kick. He does that as well as anyone I've seen.
-
MOTD took one component of the identity that Emery is developing and looked at it in isolation.
In addition...
- We play possession based football (and have 60%+ possession in most games). Something that will only improve as we recruit better plays.
- Press the opponent when they have the ball so that it's harder to pick out runs.
- Our back line is so well drilled that most opponents have known we play a high line but have failed to capitalise on it. One time it did happen recently, at Old Trafford, it came about because Martinez played a long ball that Casemiro got his head onto and Konsa didn't quite have his positioning right. I can imagine in the analysis afterwards, Emery would have pointed out that it was caused by playing the ball long, not winning the duel and Konsa's positioning.
- As others pointed to, Martinez has been alert and been able to act as sweeper/keeper. Then he's one of the best around (if not the best) at one-to-one's.
- Emery's tactical adaptability. If he was concerned about an opponent, he would adjust the tactics accordingly.
All this together is why teams struggle to break our offside trap.
-
When Cash is fit, we have 3 (with Mings & Moreno), that are very quick on their feet without the ball, add that to Emi being a sweeper-keeper, then you can see why our high line is well drilled & effective.
It also shows how Young has deputised so well in place of Cash.
Weirdly I reckon Konsa would be the quickest of the defenders in a flat race (which is why players struggle to dribble past him) but his rections let him down at times so he gets caught on his heels.
He's been much, much better of late though, and you know he's playing well when he keeps getting between the attacker and the ball and slowing up to win a free kick. He does that as well as anyone I've seen.
I wonder if Konsa's noticeable improvement is due to Young's experience and adjacent positioning. Cash is good on the ball player often but his off the ball stuff has never been great
-
We're very well coached doing it.
The odd team will work it out next season, plenty of teams won't.
Liverpool on Boxing day got through plenty of times but then we went to Spurs a few days later and completed nullified them. Four months later they couldn't do anything again.
I always remember Bolton randomly rocking up at VP for 2-3 years and parking their backline on halfway line and Young and Gabby used to run through it with ease. That was example of side not being coached properly in it as those were our easiest wins of the season.
-
We're very well coached doing it.
The odd team will work it out next season, plenty of teams won't.
Liverpool on Boxing day got through plenty of times but then we went to Spurs a few days later and completed nullified them. Four months later they couldn't do anything again.
I always remember Bolton randomly rocking up at VP for 2-3 years and parking their backline on halfway line and Young and Gabby used to run through it with ease. That was example of side not being coached properly in it as those were our easiest wins of the season.
Yeah that was post Big Sam - 4-1 and 5-1 I think
-
When Cash is fit, we have 3 (with Mings & Moreno), that are very quick on their feet without the ball, add that to Emi being a sweeper-keeper, then you can see why our high line is well drilled & effective.
It also shows how Young has deputised so well in place of Cash.
Weirdly I reckon Konsa would be the quickest of the defenders in a flat race (which is why players struggle to dribble past him) but his rections let him down at times so he gets caught on his heels.
He's been much, much better of late though, and you know he's playing well when he keeps getting between the attacker and the ball and slowing up to win a free kick. He does that as well as anyone I've seen.
Konsa does my head in - he's great keeping up with and hassling players alongside him, but always seems to get left for dead with a through ball; could be, as pointed out, his reactions aren't great
-
Gary Megson, manager of Bolton was no Unai Emery. In fact, he always reminded me of Toby, the hapless HR manager in The (US) Office. Neutered from birth.
-
We shall be preparing again to have a high line versus Liverpool and having seen how well its implemented and Martinez high quality in one and ones with his aura then bring it on!
It'll frustrate them immensely
-
Bit concerned about Liverpools full backs running from deep through our offside trap.
-
Bit concerned about Liverpools full backs running from deep through our offside trap.
I'm more concerned that VAR will be drawing some dodgy lines, if they even bother to look at all.
-
I wonder whether it might be a bit different vrs Liverpool as they have players who could exploit it better than Spurs.
-
Bit concerned about Liverpools full backs running from deep through our offside trap.
I'm more concerned that VAR will be drawing some dodgy lines, if they even bother to look at all.
(https://i.ibb.co/3WWpcbb/imageedit-1-8419849332-640x400-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3WWpcbb)
-
Keep faith in Emery and the players implementing this!
-
Is VAR supposed to check all potential offsides or only the ones that lead to a significant event/goal etc? I feel like a lot don’t get flagged, which makes a huge difference given how we now play.
-
Was a case of like maybe about 5th time? 'lucky' for first goal we conceded in the summer series match v Newcastle .
The defence has learned to maintain the line well, but we are going to have to get used to a lot of offsides. To get through our well-drilled line, the opposing ball must be perfect. Feel Martinez and Mings expect offside but Cashy like to put his hand up like some eager school child.
Concerns about Cash and Diego Carlos in particular, both generally for passes and in these defense positions. I believe we will all love VAR because it will be used more to our favour for close calls.
-
Is VAR supposed to check all potential offsides or only the ones that lead to a significant event/goal etc? I feel like a lot don’t get flagged, which makes a huge difference given how we now play.
Most assistants like to leave it really late, which is annoying.
-
Cash had a mare of a game last night
-
Is VAR supposed to check all potential offsides or only the ones that lead to a significant event/goal etc? I feel like a lot don’t get flagged, which makes a huge difference given how we now play.
Most assistants like to leave it really late, which is annoying.
It will change just as soon as some player gets his leg broken in the extra long delay time it takes the linesman to put up his flag. Right now it's completely ridiculous.
-
How are people finding the high line after 8 matches then?
It's working effectively to an extent :
1st -Villa have had the opposition offside 33 times the most of any team (Fulham are next with 24)
Yet we are 11th for goals conceded
And 12th XG conceded.
But because of the high line:
6th- fewest tackles made defensive third
4th- fewest tackles and interceptions
4th -Only Burnley, Newcastle and Man City have made fewer tackles
4th- Only Burnley, Bournemouth and Man City have won fewer tackles
4th- Only Newcastle, Arsenal and Man City have made fewer clearances.
-
Because we're defending less in our third. We force the opposition into mistakes or low-percentage boofs and we win it back that way. Seems to be working!
-
Because we're defending less in our third. We force the opposition into mistakes or low-percentage boofs and we win it back that way. Seems to be working!
Villa have conceded the joint 3rd fewest shots at goal along with Newcastle. 2nd Arsenal 1st Man City.
Joint 7th with 4.12 shots on target a game in conceding fewest shots on target. (With Spurs)
However the shots that are being conceded see Villa
3rd for goals to shots conceded only Burnley and Brighton conceded more.
6th for goals to shots on target conceded
-
Yep, if the line breaks down the chance the opposition gets is likely to be a better one. The idea though is to prevent them getting as many chances overall - and I think it's worth remembering that we got a couple of batterings on days when everything went wrong (particularly Mings getting injured against Newcastle) which slightly skews the data - we've looked a lot more solid recently I'd say, though not a lot of clean sheets I guess.
-
Yep, if the line breaks down the chance the opposition gets is likely to be a better one. The idea though is to prevent them getting as many chances overall - and I think it's worth remembering that we got a couple of batterings on days when everything went wrong (particularly Mings getting injured against Newcastle) which slightly skews the data - we've looked a lot more solid recently I'd say, though not a lot of clean sheets I guess.
Cleen sheets
Would have been happy with 50% after 8 but at 25% (7th best)
The most are Arsenal and Palace 50%
-
First half the high line was a thing of beauty.
West ham players don't know how to deal with it and worked a treat Martinez made a great save from Bowen but it was totally irrelevant effort at goal as there was offside decision.
We continue to catch the opposition offside more than any other team in the league.
-
Aston Villa have caught opposition offside 42 times this season . More than any other club.
Fulham next best with 28.
The compression play is outfoxing our opponents time and again.
I think it's super clever!
-
Aston Villa have caught opposition offside 42 times this season . More than any other club.
Fulham next best with 28.
The compression play is outfoxing our opponents time and again.
I think it's super clever!
It's clever but shouldn't be a surprise since we were doing it last season post-Gerrard.
-
The jammy goals scored by Wham and Luton would have had Emi and Ezri seething. We could easily have had a couple more cleansheets.
-
I think it's the most daring tactic deployed by any team anywhere in the world right now. Arsenal fans might well be thinking, "we used to do that and yous all slagged us off for being boring", but this is way beyond that. I think a good measure of just how daring it is is the fact that nobody else is attempting to do it to the same extreme as us, despite how successful we're making it look.
And yet, we're still seeing teams trying to outwit it with a basic ball over the top. I know that is probably the best way to beat it, but the precision required in three elements simultaneously, the timing of the pass, the accuracy of the pass in both direction and weight, and the timing of the run, means that nobody really has.
And then you've got to beat Martinez.
-
I think it's the most daring tactic deployed by any team anywhere in the world right now. Arsenal fans might well be thinking, "we used to do that and yous all slagged us off for being boring", but this is way beyond that. I think a good measure of just how daring it is is the fact that nobody else is attempting to do it to the same extreme as us, despite how successful we're making it look.
And yet, we're still seeing teams trying to outwit it with a basic ball over the top. I know that is probably the best way to beat it, but the precision required in three elements simultaneously, the timing of the pass, the accuracy of the pass in both direction and weight, and the timing of the run, means that nobody really has.
And then you've got to beat Martinez.
The ammount of other fans I've seen saying "They play a high line, just stick it over the top" is funny, because it's clearly worked well for everyone so far.
-
I think it's the most daring tactic deployed by any team anywhere in the world right now. Arsenal fans might well be thinking, "we used to do that and yous all slagged us off for being boring", but this is way beyond that. I think a good measure of just how daring it is is the fact that nobody else is attempting to do it to the same extreme as us, despite how successful we're making it look.
And yet, we're still seeing teams trying to outwit it with a basic ball over the top. I know that is probably the best way to beat it, but the precision required in three elements simultaneously, the timing of the pass, the accuracy of the pass in both direction and weight, and the timing of the run, means that nobody really has.
And then you've got to beat Martinez.
The ammount of other fans I've seen saying "They play a high line, just stick it over the top" is funny, because it's clearly worked well for everyone so far.
These other fans do have a point but that's the daring nature of Emerys way.
Some insight on the high line we play.
If I explain. So other high line teams, such as Liverpool, vary from us in that they typically press from all over. And high . Certainly in general higher than us!
So my observation is Villa more mid rather than low block or high press and to get through the foundations an opponent's pass needs to be 100% accurate.
So at elite level the top players and teams are able to do this and the stats indicate we do get broken and are vulnerable.
Because of this Villa mid block with a high line we have given up numerous through balls and balls over the top there is a chance to be caught out. Really, there aren't that many-actually only Luton- who have conceded more this season.
The 4 teams that concede the most through balls Luton 32 Villa 29 . Burnley and Sheff Utd 27
So it's the 3 promoted clubs , arguably the 3 weakest teams and defences and players who struggle or allow pass and also Our Villa!
Clearly it's a high risk (2nd most conceded through balls) v high reward (caught opposition Offside the most ) in Villa strategy.
-
I keep thinking we'll get caught out more with the high line, it doesn't seem that complicated to me for 2-3 players to stagger their runs to beat it.
But one huge thing in our favour is that if a team does get through we have, in my opinion, the very best keeper in the world at one-on-ones, so even when a team does spring our trap, I'm still pretty relaxed as I think the chances are Emi's going to save it anyway.
-
I keep thinking we'll get caught out more with the high line, it doesn't seem that complicated to me for 2-3 players to stagger their runs to beat it.
But one huge thing in our favour is that if a team does get through we have, in my opinion, the very best keeper in the world at one-on-ones, so even when a team does spring our trap, I'm still pretty relaxed as I think the chances are Emi's going to save it anyway.
He's also stepped up a level and embraced playing sweeper role.
The one and ones are a major strength, just his aura is a wow but of course tremendous ability.
I think where he's had to adapt is leaving the penalty area to sweep
I think he's very good and accurate reading the play and there's no way Emery wouldn't be leaving to chance so has ensured Martinez decision making is being tested and worked on with the coaches to refine those abilities. It's not a natural thing for Martinez so I can get concerned but generally he's done ok.
-
There's a picture doing the rounds showing the defensive line for a free kick against Luton and it is incredible to see the coordination of the players, not just in making a solid line but also in the identical body positions at the same moment. The players are exceptionally well drilled, to a level I don't think I've ever seen from a Villa team before.
On the two occasions where it hasn't seemed to work (Newcastle and Liverpool) we'd lost a centre back to injury during the match with the replacements having had limited playing time with us in this system. It's fair to say those were mitigating circumstances. The counter argument would be that those were two teams from the top four last year and even Emery has acknowledged that we need to improve against teams of that level. It's going to be interesting to see how we get on defending against Man City and Arsenal having learned from those two games.
-
I keep thinking we'll get caught out more with the high line, it doesn't seem that complicated to me for 2-3 players to stagger their runs to beat it.
But one huge thing in our favour is that if a team does get through we have, in my opinion, the very best keeper in the world at one-on-ones, so even when a team does spring our trap, I'm still pretty relaxed as I think the chances are Emi's going to save it anyway.
He's also stepped up a level and embraced playing sweeper role.
The one and ones are a major strength, just his aura is a wow but of course tremendous ability.
I think where he's had to adapt is leaving the penalty area to sweep
I think he's very good and accurate reading the play and there's no way Emery wouldn't be leaving to chance so has ensured Martinez decision making is being tested and worked on with the coaches to refine those abilities. It's not a natural thing for Martinez so I can get concerned but generally he's done ok.
Agree Footy, his sweeping has improved massively. It's got to be a very good ball to beat our high line but not be overhit so Martinez can easily sweep.
-
The high block/low block stuff isn't really relevant because that's not how we defend, we're not passive anywhere on the pitch but we're also not charging in to press. Instead what we do is compress the pitch down into as small a space as possible so we can get our 3 lines all very close together and then we block passing lanes and reduce the options teams have. We then control where teams are playing against us and we shift things about to make that be into areas where they don't want to play. So Brighton we took away the option to play out to the wings and made them play straight balls into midfield where we could outnumber them and win it back.
It's all about dominating the game but we do it in a way where we don't need to have the ball.
-
There's a picture doing the rounds showing the defensive line for a free kick against Luton and it is incredible to see the coordination of the players, not just in making a solid line but also in the identical body positions at the same moment. The players are exceptionally well drilled, to a level I don't think I've ever seen from a Villa team before.
On the two occasions where it hasn't seemed to work (Newcastle and Liverpool) we'd lost a centre back to injury during the match with the replacements having had limited playing time with us in this system. It's fair to say those were mitigating circumstances. The counter argument would be that those were two teams from the top four last year and even Emery has acknowledged that we need to improve against teams of that level. It's going to be interesting to see how we get on defending against Man City and Arsenal having learned from those two games.
Hang it in the Louvre.
(https://i.ibb.co/RpgYpFr/F9y-Ds6j-WQAA96-C3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RpgYpFr)
-
The high block/low block stuff isn't really relevant because that's not how we defend, we're not passive anywhere on the pitch but we're also not charging in to press. Instead what we do is compress the pitch down into as small a space as possible so we can get our 3 lines all very close together and then we block passing lanes and reduce the options teams have. We then control where teams are playing against us and we shift things about to make that be into areas where they don't want to play. So Brighton we took away the option to play out to the wings and made them play straight balls into midfield where we could outnumber them and win it back.
It's all about dominating the game but we do it in a way where we don't need to have the ball.
That's why I chose the phrase "mid block." Why not utilise that as well? Surely you can agree with me there?
However, the additional description and insightful knowledge you have provided is bang on. I was already aware, but your writings are accurate to help the wider audience. I thoroughly enjoyed reading what you have expressed there. It's good descriptive information, and I like to see more posts like this on the main page of the discussion boards.
I can't always write as well, so I just wanted to say thank you for making your post and it's exactly how I understood the Brighton match but would not be able to word like you have.
Excellent insights!
-
There's a picture doing the rounds showing the defensive line for a free kick against Luton and it is incredible to see the coordination of the players, not just in making a solid line but also in the identical body positions at the same moment. The players are exceptionally well drilled, to a level I don't think I've ever seen from a Villa team before.
On the two occasions where it hasn't seemed to work (Newcastle and Liverpool) we'd lost a centre back to injury during the match with the replacements having had limited playing time with us in this system. It's fair to say those were mitigating circumstances. The counter argument would be that those were two teams from the top four last year and even Emery has acknowledged that we need to improve against teams of that level. It's going to be interesting to see how we get on defending against Man City and Arsenal having learned from those two games.
Hang it in the Louvre.
(https://i.ibb.co/RpgYpFr/F9y-Ds6j-WQAA96-C3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RpgYpFr)
Thank you for this.
The pictorials are something also we could have more of on the discuss board main page. Imagery can paint a wonderful picture.
Certainly illustrates so well everything we have all been discussing.
This is really great and I for one will print this out!
Thanks !
More imagery please. Pictorials can really help!
-
The high block/low block stuff isn't really relevant because that's not how we defend, we're not passive anywhere on the pitch but we're also not charging in to press. Instead what we do is compress the pitch down into as small a space as possible so we can get our 3 lines all very close together and then we block passing lanes and reduce the options teams have. We then control where teams are playing against us and we shift things about to make that be into areas where they don't want to play. So Brighton we took away the option to play out to the wings and made them play straight balls into midfield where we could outnumber them and win it back.
It's all about dominating the game but we do it in a way where we don't need to have the ball.
That's why I chose the phrase "mid block." Why not utilise that as well? Surely you can agree with me there?
However, the additional description and insightful knowledge you have provided is bang on. I was already aware, but your writings are accurate to help the wider audience. I thoroughly enjoyed reading what you have expressed there. It's good descriptive information, and I like to see more posts like this on the main page of the discussion boards.
I can't always write as well, so I just wanted to say thank you for making your post and it's exactly how I understood the Brighton match but would not be able to word like you have.
Excellent insights!
The reason I don't like the 'block' terminology is that it implies areas of the pitch where the team is active or passive in defence and that's not really what we're doing. We're passive where we don't think there's danger or value in pressing but it's about opposition players and tactics more than about areas of the pitch.
If teams distribute from their centre backs Watkins and Diaby press much more and Luiz goes into the gap so we have a 4312 defensive shape, if teams try to overload out wide we drop into a 442 that at times even becomes a 6211 so we can close the gaps between the fullbacks and centre backs but it's always designed to stop them playing in the channels that they like to use. This is why how we prepare is so important because we don't have a 'default' defensive system, it's all about trying to stifle the oppositions strengths.
-
I keep thinking we'll get caught out more with the high line, it doesn't seem that complicated to me for 2-3 players to stagger their runs to beat it.
But one huge thing in our favour is that if a team does get through we have, in my opinion, the very best keeper in the world at one-on-ones, so even when a team does spring our trap, I'm still pretty relaxed as I think the chances are Emi's going to save it anyway.
It tickles me pink watching from close to the halfway line as forwards bounce sideways along our back line like they're running into an invisible forcefield!
-
There's a picture doing the rounds showing the defensive line for a free kick against Luton and it is incredible to see the coordination of the players, not just in making a solid line but also in the identical body positions at the same moment. The players are exceptionally well drilled, to a level I don't think I've ever seen from a Villa team before.
On the two occasions where it hasn't seemed to work (Newcastle and Liverpool) we'd lost a centre back to injury during the match with the replacements having had limited playing time with us in this system. It's fair to say those were mitigating circumstances. The counter argument would be that those were two teams from the top four last year and even Emery has acknowledged that we need to improve against teams of that level. It's going to be interesting to see how we get on defending against Man City and Arsenal having learned from those two games.
Hang it in the Louvre.
(https://i.ibb.co/RpgYpFr/F9y-Ds6j-WQAA96-C3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RpgYpFr)
Thanks! The more I see it the more impressed I am.
-
It needs some VAR lines to be make it a modern day classic.
-
... The 4 teams that concede the most through balls Luton 32 Villa 29 . Burnley and Sheff Utd 27
So it's the 3 promoted clubs , arguably the 3 weakest teams and defences and players who struggle or allow pass and also Our Villa!
Clearly it's a high risk (2nd most conceded through balls) v high reward (caught opposition Offside the most ) in Villa strategy.
I think these data are misleading, and the reason is explained in paul_e's 'insights' (see below) i.e. (i) our defensive shape is not a fixed one; it varies according to opposition and circumstances; (ii) with a good forward press and a high line, teams are pretty much forced into trying 'through balls' to beat both.
I'd add that teams with excellent wing-plays have the best hope of breaking Villa's defence because they can get behind the high line (both N'castle and L'pool were able to play from their wingers).
The key data at the moment for Villa are the goals-scored and goals-conceded numbers: we are the highest conceders in the top 6 but also the joint-highest scorers. I do agree that it is a high risk v high reward approach; which is why people are currently enjoying watching Villa games.
If teams distribute from their centre backs Watkins and Diaby press much more and Luiz goes into the gap so we have a 4312 defensive shape, if teams try to overload out wide we drop into a 442 that at times even becomes a 6211 so we can close the gaps between the fullbacks and centre backs but it's always designed to stop them playing in the channels that they like to use. This is why how we prepare is so important because we don't have a 'default' defensive system, it's all about trying to stifle the oppositions strengths.
-
There's a picture doing the rounds showing the defensive line for a free kick against Luton and it is incredible to see the coordination of the players, not just in making a solid line but also in the identical body positions at the same moment. The players are exceptionally well drilled, to a level I don't think I've ever seen from a Villa team before.
On the two occasions where it hasn't seemed to work (Newcastle and Liverpool) we'd lost a centre back to injury during the match with the replacements having had limited playing time with us in this system. It's fair to say those were mitigating circumstances. The counter argument would be that those were two teams from the top four last year and even Emery has acknowledged that we need to improve against teams of that level. It's going to be interesting to see how we get on defending against Man City and Arsenal having learned from those two games.
Hang it in the Louvre.
(https://i.ibb.co/RpgYpFr/F9y-Ds6j-WQAA96-C3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RpgYpFr)
I saw this photo on Twitter next to that photo, saying “How far we’ve come”.
Made me chuckle. :)
(https://i.ibb.co/KFNRZGn/IMG-3523.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KFNRZGn)
-
Proper LOL. Love that.
-
Would we be conceding as many if Mings hadn't gotten injured? You could probably add Ramsey to that too as he does a lot of defensive work on the left flank.
It is one aspect that I would like to see us improve on though. There must have been a few people pissed off with Konsa Sunday. Unbelievable that we didn't keep a clean sheet there.
-
There's a picture doing the rounds showing the defensive line for a free kick against Luton and it is incredible to see the coordination of the players, not just in making a solid line but also in the identical body positions at the same moment. The players are exceptionally well drilled, to a level I don't think I've ever seen from a Villa team before.
On the two occasions where it hasn't seemed to work (Newcastle and Liverpool) we'd lost a centre back to injury during the match with the replacements having had limited playing time with us in this system. It's fair to say those were mitigating circumstances. The counter argument would be that those were two teams from the top four last year and even Emery has acknowledged that we need to improve against teams of that level. It's going to be interesting to see how we get on defending against Man City and Arsenal having learned from those two games.
Hang it in the Louvre.
(https://i.ibb.co/RpgYpFr/F9y-Ds6j-WQAA96-C3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RpgYpFr)
I saw this photo on Twitter next to that photo, saying “How far we’ve come”.
Made me chuckle. :)
(https://i.ibb.co/KFNRZGn/IMG-3523.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KFNRZGn)
WTF is Hutton up to?
-
Ha ha, I have no idea but if a photo can summarise Aston Villa from around 2011 onwards it’s this.
-
Honestly that's amazing. The second photo has a kind of Guernica quality to it.
-
It needs some VAR lines to be make it a modern day classic.
Block!
Pace!
VAR lines
Villa dreams of passion
(Blowin' through my mind)
And other teams just can't get through
(Precise)
A sea-change in formation
(For us to align)
If one gets through we have Dibu
(Something of a phenomenon) Unai
(Buildin' our style and being strong)
(But, VAR lines blown away)
Go! Ollie! Go!
Tickets are rare
'Home or away'
Tell all your friends
Citeh can make way
Ball control, spray your goal
Doug Luiz
Costs more than gold
The longer we play
The more you pay
Increasing levels every day
Consistent at home
Imposing our game
With points to gain, funerallin' your brain
Luiz
Rock
Luiz
Rock
Luiz
Rock
Luiz
Rock
Higher, Meatball
(Ahhh) Get higher, Meatball
(Ahhh) Get higher, Meatball
And don't ever forget
Bouba!
Zaniolo and Boubacar!
Zaniolo and Boubacar
Zaniolo and Boubacar
Bailey Tielemans and Moussa
Calm and in control
(Connected to the fans)
And now we're havin' fun, Unai
(High line)
We're getting more and more
('Cause it makes us feel so fine)
I need some one-on-one, Bailey
(Don't let 'em take the ball away!)
Bailey!
(Just turn and put the ball away)
('Those VAR lines blown away)
-
It needs some VAR lines to be make it a modern day classic.
Block!
Pace!
VAR lines
Villa dreams of passion
(Blowin' through my mind)
And other teams just can't get through
(Precise)
A sea-change in formation
(For us to align)
If one gets through we have Dibu
(Something of a phenomenon) Unai
(Buildin' our style and being strong)
(But, VAR lines blown away)
Go! Ollie! Go!
Tickets are rare
'Home or away'
Tell all your friends
Citeh can make way
Ball control, spray your goal
Doug Luiz
Costs more than gold
The longer we play
The more you pay
Increasing levels every day
Consistent at home
Imposing our game
With points to gain, funerallin' your brain
Luiz
Rock
Luiz
Rock
Luiz
Rock
Luiz
Rock
Higher, Meatball
(Ahhh) Get higher, Meatball
(Ahhh) Get higher, Meatball
And don't ever forget
Bouba!
Zaniolo and Boubacar!
Zaniolo and Boubacar
Zaniolo and Boubacar
Bailey Tielemans and Moussa
Calm and in control
(Connected to the fans)
And now we're havin' fun, Unai
(High line)
We're getting more and more
('Cause it makes us feel so fine)
I need some one-on-one, Bailey
(Don't let 'em take the ball away!)
Bailey!
(Just turn and put the ball away)
('Those VAR lines blown away)
Post of the Year for me. Chapeau BE chapeau.
-
Maaaaaaaate!
-
Maaaaaaaate!
Yeah, I know. Had to stop halfway through as I had forgotten it was so long and I knew it wasn't going to be a masterpiece anyway.
-
There's a picture doing the rounds showing the defensive line for a free kick against Luton and it is incredible to see the coordination of the players, not just in making a solid line but also in the identical body positions at the same moment. The players are exceptionally well drilled, to a level I don't think I've ever seen from a Villa team before.
On the two occasions where it hasn't seemed to work (Newcastle and Liverpool) we'd lost a centre back to injury during the match with the replacements having had limited playing time with us in this system. It's fair to say those were mitigating circumstances. The counter argument would be that those were two teams from the top four last year and even Emery has acknowledged that we need to improve against teams of that level. It's going to be interesting to see how we get on defending against Man City and Arsenal having learned from those two games.
Hang it in the Louvre.
(https://i.ibb.co/RpgYpFr/F9y-Ds6j-WQAA96-C3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RpgYpFr)
Thanks! The more I see it the more impressed I am.
For anyone skimming down and just seeing the thumbnail - you need to click it to see the full image which includes Digne...
-
Awesome stuff BE!
-
The greatest positive from the game against Forest was having them caught 9 times offside
They were baffled by Villa's defensive tenacity to hold the line, and I saw how Forest were caught offside time and again, even when the forest replacements came on
It's a risky game and have to be careful away from home in particular but have to give credit for how disciplined it was in general to play the high line.
-
Dion Dublin wasn't too keen in it on MOTD. Don't think he watches us regularly.
-
One or two of them were a little close for comfort, to the point that VAR could have gone against us if they had gone on to score from them. It's the risk we take though.
-
Dion Dublin wasn't too keen in it on MOTD. Don't think he watches us regularly.
Claimed playing a high line means we'll lose more games than we win - after not losing for 2 months!
Think Dion's been looking at too many stairs leading up to bedrooms. The goals we conceded had bugger all to do with it.
-
This Angeball looks a lot like football to me.
-
Spurs trying to replicate our suicidal high line
-
Spurs hi line tonight was a sight to see. When we do it we at least keep it just about in our half.
-
What the 'experts' fail to appreciate is that the high line is a major reason why we've been successful.
-
Son Vs the highline will be very interesting.
How will Emery address that next away game.
-
Son Vs the highline will be very interesting.
How will Emery address that next away game.
Son will get through it that's for sure. Over to the Sultan
-
Spurs trying to replicate our suicidal high line
How is it suicidal if we've won 12 home league games in a row?
-
Son Vs the highline will be very interesting.
How will Emery address that next away game.
Son will get through it that's for sure. Over to the Sultan
I’m sure he’ll swing into action.
-
The amount of times it took Chelsea to crack the high line probably shows how hard it can be to get it right for a lot of teams.
It will be interesting to see us come up against it. With the amount of times our forwards will have played against it in training, you would think they should be pretty good at it.
-
What the 'experts' fail to appreciate is that the high line is a major reason why we've been successful.
And we definitely need VAR to work properly as sometimes it's too good for on field officials.
-
I left the telly on after the game last night and got to hear Carragher waxing lyrical about spurs' high line. Fair enough, he did manage to squeeze our name into a list of teams that also play one, but coming on the back of the release of that Luton photo it did amuse me that in order to demonstrate how well spurs played said line he used a bit of footage he could freeze at the moment various spurs players were in a line whilst actually moving past one another in different directions. It wasn't a line most of the time, more of an untaut ribbon, chelsea had more than enough pace out wide to give themselves a yard, and that they didn't score many more earlier on is testament to what an absolute shambles of an overpriced and poorly managed rabble chelsea are right now.
We do it better.
-
I look at our results since we started using it - works for me.
-
AVFC Statto posted.
Aston Villa have caught their opponents offside 58 times in the Premier League this season, 20 more times than any other team in the competition.
-
Aston Villa have the most effective offside trap in Europe – and it’s by design
The vignette of Aston Villa’s back four, heads tilted towards the assistant referee with one arm raised, is common.
Trapping opposition attackers offside has become Villa’s fisherman’s net. It catches plenty of victims and is critical to the team’s function under Unai Emery.
Since Emery took over, Villa have caught the opposition offside 163 times. For context, the next-highest figure is Liverpool with 93 offsides. Remarkably, that number includes a total of 58 already this season — the highest per-game average (4.8) of any team in Europe’s ‘big five’ leagues.
Going the other way, Villa have been offside themselves just 12 times this season, the second lowest behind Manchester City (seven). This can be attributed to the assortment of attackers who prefer the ball to feet and Emery’s in-possession framework.
What makes Villa’s defensive structure so distinctive, regardless of the frequency with which they provoke offsides, is that their metrics are not directly related to a high line. Instead, Emery deploys his defenders subtly. Their average offside height — essentially the distance from their own goal when the flag is raised — is 44.5 metres, which is the sixth-lowest in the Premier League.
But more pertinently, their average defensive line is the seventh lowest (39.2 metres) — this suggests that while Villa’s offside traps are more regular and successful than any other side, Emery’s team generally defend deeper. The crucial difference, though, is how adept they are in springing up to catch opponents offside.
Typically, letting runners go is against defensive convention. The hard and fast rule centres on “tracking your man”, unconcerned with the space left but rather the immediate danger of the attacker. However, under Emery, defenders have been drilled to either hold their positions or step up.
Although Villa do not necessarily defend high, they do time their offside traps very well. Here against Luton Town, Ezri Konsa has already stepped up to the halfway line, provoking an offside before the pass is even played.
The most fitting example came in the previous game when Fulham were driving towards Villa’s back line, with Carlos Vinicius making a run in behind. Konsa, who can see both the ball and the striker, halts his momentum. This causes Vinicius to run into an offside position.
Note the awkward body shape Konsa ends up in when checking his backpedalling.
The introduction of the VAR system has contributed to Emery adopting the scheme. Margins can be tight and offside calls can be difficult to judge at first glance. VARs, however, have weighted marginal offsides in the defenders’ favour. It is partly why Emery continues to endorse the VAR system despite its imperfections.
Emery’s fingerprints on Villa’s defensive setup were obvious from the outset. In his first 14 games, Villa provoked 63 offsides, and in only two of those games — against Arsenal and Manchester City — did the opposition win more.
“When the boss came in and we started doing the defensive line, it was weird,” said Konsa. “With the previous managers, we’ve never had to do that and they never wanted us to do that. We’re not 100 per cent there yet. We’re still making mistakes but that’s normal when you’re trying to play a high line and, regardless if it’s onside or offside, we just have to run back as quick as we can.”
As Villa’s quickest recovering defender, Konsa is integral to Villa’s defensive line, especially in the absence of long-standing partner Tyrone Mings. Now working alongside Pau Torres, who is not as mobile, the onus is on Konsa as Villa’s defensive leader, with communication key to the timing of offside traps.
In the second half at Stamford Bridge, Villa maintained their defensive line, despite a speed disadvantage against Chelsea’s front players. Not having pressure on the ball puts a greater emphasis on the back four staying in line and potentially relying on the digital margins of the VAR. Below is a tight offside call that goes in Villa’s favour.
Although the passage below ends up being flagged with three Nottingham Forest players standing in offside positions, goalkeeper Emiliano Martinez raced out to sweep up the ball over the top.
Martinez ranks in the top one per cent of goalkeepers from Europe’s top five domestic leagues for defensive actions outside his penalty area (2.86 per 90 minutes) over the past year. Villa depend on the Argentina international to sweep up any overhit balls, putting the responsibility back on the opposition passer to time their weight of pass to near perfection.
There has only been one game this season — the 3-1 victory against Crystal Palace — where the other team won more offsides than Villa, something that highlights the growing understanding between Torres and Konsa. Within the back four, the centre-backs dictate the depth of the line, often cajoling the full-backs higher — who have the advantage of looking across the line — or rushing out to press their direct winger.
Within the first 15 seconds of Villa’s 6-1 thrashing of Brighton & Hove Albion, a pass is played towards a tight area on the pitch, encouraging Villa to quickly condense the space. This is the trigger for Konsa and Torres to push up, with Matty Cash and Lucas Digne taking their lead. It catches Solly March, left clearly offside, unaware.
Even when there is no pressure on the player on the ball — again at odds with defenders’ orthodoxy which is usually to drop off — Villa’s back line steps up. Note Cash, Konsa and Torres are all side on, with their momentum braced on their front leg. This enables them to step up at the same time Lewis Dunk makes contact with his pass.
Recognising the triggers of when to squeeze high, maintain the defensive line or, rarely in Villa’s case, drop off, is fundamental in achieving the consistency Emery wants. This comes through hours of drilling an out-of-possession shape on the training ground, using walkthroughs and creating specific game-related scenarios in which Emery can then explain where he wants his players at any given time. It requires meticulous detail in explaining such triggers.
Triggers centre on anticipation. They can include recognising when an opposing player has their back to Villa’s goal, when a pass goes backwards, when there is pressure on the ball or after a heavy touch. All of which are examples of the attacking side presenting an opportunity to regain possession.
For instance, here Brighton pass backwards with March facing towards his own goal. This creates the trigger for Villa to get immediate pressure on him, with the back line, which includes John McGinn dropping into right-back, squeezing up outside of the 18-yard box. It leaves three Brighton players in offside positions.
Villa tend to leave the 18-yard box vacant when possible. The area is used as a barometer in gauging the defensive line’s depth, ensuring no team-mate is left inside the box and playing opposing attackers onside.
As with every tactical scheme, there are pitfalls. Villa’s steadfast line depends on a synchronised back four. When the timings go awry, they present opposing attackers with high-quality, one-on-one chances. Additionally, the trap can be susceptible to movements from deep, due to untracked players staying onside because they have a longer distance to run.
Fulham’s goal exposed the blindspot, with left-back Antonee Robinson sprinting behind Cash and Konsa. Although there was no pressure on the passer Harry Wilson, the body shape of Villa’s back line was too square, meaning they had to pivot 180 degrees to change direction. For Emery, it is paramount his defenders are in a side-on, boxer-like pose that allows them to be nimble in stepping up or turning quickly to chase any pass over the top.
To caveat, Emery will contest Villa’s defensive line conserves energy and is efficient in managing the current workload. The offside trap does shorten the distance between Villa’s furthest outfield player and defence, offering compactness and less distance to cover in midfield. A tighter structure also condenses the space between the lines.
Villa’s penchant for raising the flag is becoming well-known among opposition sides, who are all trying to hatch an effective counteractive plan. But one year into Emery’s project, the margins between success and failure still overwhelmingly fall on the side of Villa’s head coach.
Article with images here - https://theathletic.com/5062686/2023/11/23/aston-villa-offside-trap-premier-league/
-
We're getting a lot more tactical analysis now that Jacob Tanswell is the Athletic reporter. He's doing a good job.
-
That's absolutely sexual to me.
-
That's absolutely sexual to me.
No, I'm not feeling it at all.
-
They must practice it for hours. It must be so hard to do, all four defenders need to be aware of where their team mates are, and what the attacking player with the ball and those waiting to receive it are up to. The concentration required to get it right as often as we do must be immense.
-
This bit stood out to me - “When the boss came in and we started doing the defensive line, it was weird,” said Konsa. “With the previous managers, we’ve never had to do that and they never wanted us to do that. We’re not 100 per cent there yet. We’re still making mistakes but that’s normal when you’re trying to play a high line and, regardless if it’s onside or offside, we just have to run back as quick as we can.”
It's already the most effective offside trap in the top 5 leagues and he's saying that it's still a work-in-progress and can be better!
-
That's absolutely sexual to me.
No, I'm not feeling it at all.
I told you castration was a bad idea, but oh no, you had to have the prettiest voice.
-
The suggestion that Wenger's idea on revamping the offside law so that the whole of the attacking player would have to be beyond the last defender when the ball is passed to him for him to be offside may be introduced next season presumably threatens to cut the party short.
-
The suggestion that Wenger's idea on revamping the offside law so that the whole of the attacking player would have to be beyond the last defender when the ball is passed to him for him to be offside may be introduced next season presumably threatens to cut the party short.
I really hope they realise it's a shit idea. That's not because we're so good at playing offside but rather that, I suspect, it'll have the opposite effect and you'll see teams consistently defending much deeper, think how Luton play and make that the default across the league, it'd be horrible (in my opinion).
-
The suggestion that Wenger's idea on revamping the offside law so that the whole of the attacking player would have to be beyond the last defender when the ball is passed to him for him to be offside may be introduced next season presumably threatens to cut the party short.
I'm sure that was tried before. The term 'daylight' was used a lot.
-
Son Vs the highline will be very interesting.
How will Emery address that next away game.
Son will get through it that's for sure. Over to the Sultan
Spurs 26 offsides this season (7th highest)
Son caught offside the 3rd most in the league this season 7 times.
Kulusevski 5 times
And Heung-Min Son was the Spurs player to be caught the most Offside last season 18 times in 36 appearances.
The amount of times it took Chelsea to crack the high line probably shows how hard it can be to get it right for a lot of teams.
It will be interesting to see us come up against it. With the amount of times our forwards will have played against it in training, you would think they should be pretty good at it.
Aston Villa Caught 12 times offside this season. (Second lowest)
Watkins and Diaby- Caught Offside 4 times each this season.
Watkins was offside 18 times in 37 appearances last season.
-
Son was probably offside 7 times in the home game last season alone.
-
The high line derby yesterday cemented us as the rightful kings!
5 - 2 on the offside.
Villa remains number one . 63 times catching players Offside
4.8 offsides per game (23 more than the next-best Spurs)
On average, it's nearly five times a game that the opponents are offside.
Further evidence of Emery's strategic genius.
-
I suppose the "suicidal" high line is working but it doesn't make for easy viewing . I've always found watching Villa is stressful, this takes it to another level. :)
-
No not that walk in New York.
Ours. It’s going to get worked out right? Especially with no pressure on the ball. Sort of thing you can get away with as a one off? So organised we can continue with it?
Looking back to see origins.
The original first post of thread above.
Though it was a great to start a thread for football discussion.
63 and counting.
We're on for around 170 offsides given over 36 matches.
-
I suppose the "suicidal" high line is working but it doesn't make for easy viewing . I've always found watching Villa is stressful, this takes it to another level. :)
If linesmen flagged immediately it would seem a lot less stressful, we're very good at doing it and 99% of the time there's clear daylight so I have no idea why they're waiting on putting up the flag. There was one yesterday where was Son was 3-4 yards offside and the flag didn't go up for ages.
-
I suppose the "suicidal" high line is working but it doesn't make for easy viewing . I've always found watching Villa is stressful, this takes it to another level. :)
If linesmen flagged immediately it would seem a lot less stressful, we're very good at doing it and 99% of the time there's clear daylight so I have no idea why they're waiting on putting up the flag. There was one yesterday where was Son was 3-4 yards offside and the flag didn't go up for ages.
Ok try seeing it like I do. That it's offside.
Fans, like the players, must adapt. You must believe in it. It must be comprehended. Emery is imparting football knowledge to both players and fans. Football, like life, evolves.
As so, he takes things to another level for many who have seen and understood football in a different way.
Even the phrase used above misrepresents the situation.
A player with that mindset of the term used is unlikely to be selected.
Ok it not 100% perfect but it's successfully working!
I can understand some folks being stressed because it's not what they're used to. But it is what it is now, so it is to be anticipated we'll succeed, and if people can accept it and gain confidence in Emery and the players, they will be able to take delight seeing the opponents offside.
And the opposition celebration falsely
It's a good laugh if you look at it that way as also have VAR to aid us in tighter decisions.
Like the players, fans must accept and change their mindset rather than worry. You're only stressed because you're perceiving it negatively rather than embracing the positive action intended
The players are following El Mastero's instructions and I for one perfectly comfortable watching it in action.
It's our way of playing!
And it's going to bring us untold glory!
-
I've seen us play so many people offside now that my default reaction is that it's offside. I can usually tell watching it live on TV too. I don't know why it takes VAR so long.
-
With 160+ offsides for us this season we need VAR, as on field officials are not good enough to protect us.
-
With 160+ offsides for us this season we need VAR, as on field officials are not good enough to protect us.
Good point, it's working well for us in defence this season.
-
With 160+ offsides for us this season we need VAR, as on field officials are not good enough to protect us.
Absolutely.
I think in the media coverage of our offside trap they don’t really mention that this is a completely different tactic with VAR.
If it is sometimes scary with VAR imagine what it’d be like relying on a linesman 50 yards away.
-
I don’t think you can talk about changing the high line defence in isolation. It is an integral part of the formation that allows for our fat transition and high press. To change one you would have to alter the way the whole team plays.
-
I don’t think you can talk about changing the high line defence in isolation. It is an integral part of the formation that allows for our fat transition and high press. To change one you would have to alter the way the whole team plays.
In this context, I think you'd need to refer to our 'phat transition'.
-
I don’t think you can talk about changing the high line defence in isolation. It is an integral part of the formation that allows for our fat transition and high press. To change one you would have to alter the way the whole team plays.
We don't really do a high press though, certainly not in the way people think when talking about that. We do what I'm going to call a shadow press in that we give them passing options but the only easy ones are in front of us, anything progressive, especially on the floor, is reduced to 50/50s or means the recipient will be under immense pressure as soon as he gets the ball. We're not trying to tackle them but rather trying to goad them into making mistakes.
-
I don’t think you can talk about changing the high line defence in isolation. It is an integral part of the formation that allows for our fat transition and high press. To change one you would have to alter the way the whole team plays.
SWe don't really do a high press though, certainly not in the way people think when talking about that. We do what I'm going to call a shadow press in that we give them passing options but the only easy ones are in front of us, anything progressive, especially on the floor, is reduced to 50/50s or means the recipient will be under immense pressure as soon as he gets the ball. We're not trying to tackle them but rather trying to goad them into making mistakes.
which seems to work at home, but not so much away.
-
I don’t think you can talk about changing the high line defence in isolation. It is an integral part of the formation that allows for our fat transition and high press. To change one you would have to alter the way the whole team plays.
SWe don't really do a high press though, certainly not in the way people think when talking about that. We do what I'm going to call a shadow press in that we give them passing options but the only easy ones are in front of us, anything progressive, especially on the floor, is reduced to 50/50s or means the recipient will be under immense pressure as soon as he gets the ball. We're not trying to tackle them but rather trying to goad them into making mistakes.
which seems to work at home, but not so much away.
I'm not sure, the 3 games we've lost we've been caught cold and conceded the opener very early on (I'm not including Legia game where the problems were more around the team selection). Once teams have the lead they don't need to play those risky passes so we don't generate the same amount of chances to win the ball back and spring the counter-attack. I think those 3 games would've all gone very differently if they'd been 0-0 after 20minutes.
-
I agree with that Paul.
-
Interestingly, whilst we're top of the list for catching teams offside, we're 3rd bottom on being caught offside with 14 times. Below us are Newcastle with 13 and ManCity with 10. Chelsea and Man Utd have 35 each. (Spuds, who also play a high line have been caught 31 times).
-
I expect it is for the same reason we are top for catching teams out, the coaching and enforcing players to do the same thing over and over until it is second nature. Watkins used to be caught offside so many times prior to Emery arriving. Now, when caught off, it is a 2-3 minute decision to confirm as the decision is so tight.
-
I expect it is for the same reason we are top for catching teams out, the coaching and enforcing players to do the same thing over and over until it is second nature. Watkins used to be caught offside so many times prior to Emery arriving. Now, when caught off, it is a 2-3 minute decision to confirm as the decision is so tight.
Yep, Watkins has 5 for the season. Historically he could 5 in a game! Diaby has 4 and the others split equally.
-
I don’t think you can talk about changing the high line defence in isolation. It is an integral part of the formation that allows for our fat transition and high press. To change one you would have to alter the way the whole team plays.
We don't really do a high press though, certainly not in the way people think when talking about that. We do what I'm going to call a shadow press in that we give them passing options but the only easy ones are in front of us, anything progressive, especially on the floor, is reduced to 50/50s or means the recipient will be under immense pressure as soon as he gets the ball. We're not trying to tackle them but rather trying to goad them into making mistakes.
Fair enough. In which case we wouldn't be able to continue to "shadow press" in the same manner without playing the high line defence. By setting up on the halfway line and only retreating slowly we compress the pitch and further reduce those passing options until the ball over the top becomes the only safe outlet. Then we are reliant on our defenders being brave and skillful enough to maintain that high line and play the opposition forwards offside. It's cat and mouse and forwards are a bunch of glory hunting dumb dumbs that will never have the patience to time their runs well enough to defeat the trap. That's the gamble we take. If we remove the high line then there will be more spaces in midfield and m ore options for the opposition defence to find a simple outlet ball...
Capiche?
-
Bit more to it than forwards not having patience. Emery's got them drilled on body shape and reading what ball the opposition are going to play. Convention is for defenders to drop back. Our defenders step forward. So the opposition players can be onside and then when the player in possession is shaping up to play a through ball, our back line steps up and that onside player is then offside.
-
Well beJesus you bunch of picky f'ers....so it's not a high press and nor do we allow the strikers to get bored and wander offside...I feel though the basis of my argument is valid...If we change the highline defence we will have to alter the entire make up of our tactics. So we cannot talk about changing just this one aspect of our play. Is that ok? XD
-
I heard that IFAB has mooted going back to the 'clear daylight' interpretation of offside. I wonder how our coaching would adapt to that change in risk.
-
I heard that IFAB has mooted going back to the 'clear daylight' interpretation of offside. I wonder how our coaching would adapt to that change in risk.
It has never had a clear daylight rule. and if they did bring it in and still use VAR, then what would class as clear daylight and why won't lines be drawn when it is close.
-
I heard that IFAB has mooted going back to the 'clear daylight' interpretation of offside. I wonder how our coaching would adapt to that change in risk.
It has never had a clear daylight rule. and if they did bring it in and still use VAR, then what would class as clear daylight and why won't lines be drawn when it is close.
IIRC back in the preVAR days the interpretation of level was changed from being wholly behind the defender to not being entirely in front. Obviously they will still VAR the shit out of it. But it would change the dynamics of the situation by giving the attacker around a stride of leeway making it harder to step past them.
-
Extra cheating room? Yeah, why not! Why not change the handball rule so's you can punch it in the net while we're at it, imagine how many more goals we'd see. And at the end of the day, isn't that all that matters, more goals? Bring it on!
-
I heard that IFAB has mooted going back to the 'clear daylight' interpretation of offside. I wonder how our coaching would adapt to that change in risk.
It has never had a clear daylight rule. and if they did bring it in and still use VAR, then what would class as clear daylight and why won't lines be drawn when it is close.
IIRC back in the preVAR days the interpretation of level was changed from being wholly behind the defender to not being entirely in front. Obviously they will still VAR the shit out of it. But it would change the dynamics of the situation by giving the attacker around a stride of leeway making it harder to step past them.
The interpretation level was seen as benefit the attacker if it was close because of the human reaction delay of judging the pass to when the linesman might have looked along the line. However it was still a judgement call due to the exact alignment of the linesman and optical angles. VAR doesn't need any of those as the RO can mark the kicked ball frame and all other cameras are synced up, (although frame rate guestimates of final contact is still not exact, it is still faster then a linesman's reactions).
And the semi-auto system based on the accelerometer in the ball makes the decision time even closer to concurrent. So I don't know how they would instigate the 'daylight' interpretation using current VAR exactments apart from maybe stating if the decision is taking 3 minutes to make, then go with the on-field decision.
-
16 matches played
Offsides 75 and counting. Most in the league by some distance!
Carragher was raving about the body positioning and organising of our high line yesterday saying no club team in Europe does it better!
It's 4.6 Offsides a game that we catch our opponents offside.
-
Where are we with the high line and our defenders?
In the FA cup midweek Chelsea were not caught offside once?
Yet in the league they are the second most Offsides this season.
And in the Prem League. We , Aston Villa, remain the best and have caught the opposition offside 116 times.
2nd Spurs 75
3rd Fulham 57
-
Well its not working now is it unai? You need to start coming up with different ideas as its so easy to play against now
-
The negativity tonight is draining. We are well, well in the race for our best season in three decades. Honestly.
-
The negativity tonight is draining. We are well, well in the race for our best season in three decades. Honestly.
Just let things simmer mate. Post match nobody is rational. Just need to keep the faith and utv!
-
The negativity tonight is draining. We are well, well in the race for our best season in three decades. Honestly.
Well said….im sure a few on here want us to lose so they can moan…..
-
The negativity tonight is draining. We are well, well in the race for our best season in three decades. Honestly.
Sha we have a party celebrate tonight then instead? 😉 its only natural people are gonna be annoyed after losing a game for our main rival for 5th. It was a must not lose game and we lost AGAIN to those losers
-
Seems that way, I do my best to ignore the noise. We have been massively unlucky with defensive injuries this season and I thought the back 2 tonight did ok. The first goal was poor marking on Maguire by Kamara, what I don't understand is why kamara was marking him in the first place and certainly after he left hum for dead from the previous corner also, that's a question for Austin McP. Most of our problems came from players lapping around Cash and Moreno and creating good crosses into the box. These are a poor run of results but let's look at them through the prism of us being 5th in the league a position we would have been excited by occupying at the start of the season. UTV.
-
Well its not working now is it unai? You need to start coming up with different ideas as its so easy to play against now
Which of the goals came as a result of failings with the high line? Personally I thought the defence looked much better than it had in the last few games but we got done by a few set pieces and a very good cross.
-
I'm still sure (not seen the replay!) Mainoo is miles off in the build up to the second goal
-
Well its not working now is it unai? You need to start coming up with different ideas as its so easy to play against now
What was wrong with it yesterday?
-
There was nothing wrong with it yesterday, we caught Rashford offside countless times in the first half.
-
I'm still sure (not seen the replay!) Mainoo is miles off in the build up to the second goal
I'd really like to see a better angle for a couple of things in the build-up to the first as well, I'm not entirely convinced it was a corner, Emi caught it very close to the line and was pretty pissed off that the linesman flagged. On top of that I thought there was an offside in the play leading to it that got missed/ignored.
-
The high line was very good yesterday.
-
There was nothing wrong with it yesterday, we caught Rashford offside countless times in the first half.
Only twice where we actually got a free kick but plenty of others where he stopped because he knew he was off or where we won the ball back before the flag went up and played on. 2 each for Garnacho and Hojlund as well.
All in the defensive line was very good yesterday and it feels weird that someone chose now to complain about it.
-
I'm still sure (not seen the replay!) Mainoo is miles off in the build up to the second goal
I'd really like to see a better angle for a couple of things in the build-up to the first as well, I'm not entirely convinced it was a corner, Emi caught it very close to the line and was pretty pissed off that the linesman flagged. On top of that I thought there was an offside in the play leading to it that got missed/ignored.
Casemiro was miles off, it wasn't a free kick and wasn't a corner. All apparently stated by Keane and Neville. We do seem on the wrong side of a lot of decisions since the Arsenal game.
-
Well its not working now is it unai? You need to start coming up with different ideas as its so easy to play against now
Which of the goals came as a result of failings with the high line? Personally I thought the defence looked much better than it had in the last few games but we got done by a few set pieces and a very good cross.
How much space were united finding when we kept losing the ball? Everytime garnacho was loving it
Also we conceded two goals. Thats 8 in the last three home games. Its not working anymore been found out
-
Well its not working now is it unai? You need to start coming up with different ideas as its so easy to play against now
Which of the goals came as a result of failings with the high line? Personally I thought the defence looked much better than it had in the last few games but we got done by a few set pieces and a very good cross.
How much space were united finding when we kept losing the ball? Everytime garnacho was loving it
Also we conceded two goals. Thats 8 in the last three home games. Its not working anymore been found out
Garnacho was finding space where we were happy for him to have it and nothing was coming from it because we were setup to defend against it. This is what is meant when people talk about setting traps, you encourage people to play where and how you want them to and, yesterday, it worked.
I don't care much about the previous 2 games because we all know there were problems there but yesterday we'd fixed those and things went exactly as we planned, unfortunately we conceded 2 goals that were nothing to do with the defensive line (and would both be considered controversial if they'd happened against other teams).