Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: not3bad on February 06, 2023, 01:13:53 PM
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Thought this topic deserves a thread on it's own as it is a controversial aspect of the way Emery wants to play.
Here he is doubling down on the strategy:
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/aston-villa-unai-emery-problem-26164219
Emery does suggest a hybrid style of play but we will continue to play it out from the back. A disappointing aspect of Saturday's defeat was Kamara, who I suppose we had held up as "the model" of how we wanted Villa to play getting caught out in this more than once on Saturday.
Thoughts/worries/criticisms/suggestions?
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Trying to play a more expansive game is obviously a noble aim, but so far the short goal kicks have contributed to both cup exits and at least another couple of goals conceded. I just don't think we have the players to do it consistently well, espeically when it goes out to Mings or Konsa. I think at least we need to mix it up a bit, because once Leicester had worked out that's what we were going to attempt every time, their press really made it ineffective. And if we're as bad at it next week against Man City, it's not going to be a pretty scoreline.
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I am amazed it took so long for us to get caught out doing it again, having had god knows how many heart-in-mouth moments in recent games where we've just got away with it.
Problem is not the tactic, it's that our defenders (and yes, I know it was Kamara on this occasion) are not technically strong enough to do it well.
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I think it's a failing of our midfield that if, after knocking it about a bit at the back, we have no options on and Mings has to pump it upfield. I'd expect Luiz, Buendia, Ramsay or whoever to become an option but it only ever seems to be Kamara available for a pass from defence.
We have played some really nice stuff in recent games, if we can grow that to become a team that is consistently dangerous with the ball, it will have been worth the pain.
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I am in the camp which is that we should play out from the back and I don't think anyone is saying lets just hoof the ball at every opportunity.
The one thing that I would say in response to a perfectly valid view as to whether we have the players to do so is, should it be that hard to do? We are talking about premier league players, is it too hard to get them to able to side step an attacker who isint the best tackler and is just basically rushing right at a defender?
Are other players really working hard enough to get themselves into space so that when someone like Konsa for example has the ball he has at least 2 options that he can quickly make a straight forward pass? Because if we are saying that Our defenders cannot make a simple pass then something is seriously wrong.
So for me similar to how we should defend as a team and attack as a team, I think what Emery is saying is that as a whole unit we need to become better at bringing the ball out from the back.
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I was going to start a similar thread as I was amazed at many of the negative post-match comments about how Villa 'playing out from the back' has cost us all these goals. Yes, it did directly cost us a goal on Saturday and at Brighton, but the dominant possession we now have in games is also the reason we have done so well under Emery.
The three away wins in a row under Emery are based on possession football in which playing out from the back is one major factor. Normally when Villa are defending a slender away lead I'm as nervous as hell, but I just couldn't see Brighton, Spurs or Saints scoring in those games and we were very comfortable. Good possession and not constantly giving the ball away from goal kicks has made a huge positive difference to the way we play. It may prove harder initially at home with the nervous crowd and the need to be on the front foot all the time.
There are different ways to play out, you play 'round' the opposition team through the split centre halve, 'into' the CDM's dropping in, 'onto' the wide and high fullbacks and 'over' using the quick release of the keeper to pacy forwards. At the moment its impossible to successfully execute all these options with the players available. I've actually been very surprised at how quickly our players have adapted to these patterns of play under Emery. The 'playing out' and 'through the thirds' possession-based football at Southampton away was a joy to watch. Remember these are exactly the same players (apart from Mereno) as Gerrard had.
This will take time, but so far for every negative, the positives are in my opinion so much greater. I can't wait to see Villa develop under Emery when he gets more time with the squad and his players after the Summer transfer window..
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I was going to start a similar thread as I was amazed at many of the negative post-match comments about how Villa 'playing out from the back' has cost us all these goals. Yes, it did directly cost us a goal on Saturday and at Brighton, but the dominant possession we now have in games is also the reason we have done so well under Emery.
It's this in a nutshell. It may seem risky at times, but it's what has got us the reults to date that most people are pretty happy with.
Hopefully we'll get better at it and Emery will adapt it, as clearly managers are going to target this part of our game.
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We haven't been playing that well though, and it was only a matter of time before it bit us on the arse.
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The points total would suggest other Risso.
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The points total would suggest other Risso.
Only if you're unable to get your head round the concept of gaining points despite not playing well, like the Leeds game which we were second best at.
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We haven't been playing that well though, and it was only a matter of time before it bit us on the arse.
To be fair though, you could say that about any team, they are all going to lose at some point. On Saturday it was about individual errors rather than style of play. Kamara cost us two goals, one pissing about on the penalty spot the other approaching the half-way line. Moreno wafting his foot in the air like a feather duster and Mings/Digne/Midfield not tracking an attacker.
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Leicester had sussed that we're not very adept at this part of the game yet and they worked us to their benefit. I don't mind it if the opposition don't have terriers darting at us as soon as we start. That being the case I'd prefer us to mix it a bit, if for nothing else than to confuse the opposition. Stick with it but vary it is the way forward. Our main problem was our casual approach and that led to the mistakes.
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We haven't been playing that well though, and it was only a matter of time before it bit us on the arse.
To be fair though, you could say that about any team, they are all going to lose at some point. On Saturday it was about individual errors rather than style of play. Kamara cost us two goals, one pissing about on the penalty spot the other approaching the half-way line. Moreno wafting his foot in the air like a feather duster and Mings/Digne/Midfield not tracking an attacker.
Yes to be fair the all round performance was better, but it was against Leicester who have been struggling all season. We've now got Man City and Arsenal, two games from which I think we'll score none and concede at least 5 or 6 in total.
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Personally, i'd sooner see us bring in the 2023 version of John Fashanu and Vinny Jones and just lump the fucker forward into the box all game and kick the opposition at every opportunity than watch us fanny about with it like that in our half. Av it !
Seriously though, i want Emery to play to the current players strengths or buy in the exact players he needs to play his way and get results playing decent football. If the players we have can't do what he wants them to for the rest of the season he shouldn't try it. Leicesters first goal was one of the most embarrassing i've seen us give away, we looked a right bunch of chumps. He has of course got a hell of a lot right so far though.
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The Stevenage one was not very good either
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Personally, i'd sooner see us bring in the 2023 version of John Fashanu and Vinny Jones and just lump the fucker forward into the box all game and kick the opposition at every opportunity than watch us fanny about with it like that in our half. Av it !
Seriously though, i want Emery to play to the current players strengths or buy in the exact players he needs to play his way and get results playing decent football. If the players we have can't do what he wants them to for the rest of the season he shouldn't try it. Leicesters first goal was one of the most embarrassing i've seen us give away, we looked a right bunch of chumps. He has of course got a hell of a lot right so far though.
The thing about that is that Kamara usually can do it, and has looked good doing so. With Martinez being the other part of the issue for that first goal, then you'd be proposing we ditch our two best?
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Rodri has been at fault for a few similar goals Man City have conceded recently. I cant seem them deciding to lump it up to Haaland. Having at least one centre half very comfortable on the ball is critical though, we don't have that. Need Carlos back fit asap.
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I have very recently been on this journey with my home club. Last season we employed a Spanish manager and the possession football and playing it out from the back was immediately deployed.
Our back four are obviously less skilled than Villa's and it has been a very stressful transition to say the least. Over time, though, the heart attack inducing moments have been steadily reduced. Not gone away, to be sure, but they are far less frequent and I hope when the new season starts in April we'll be more comfortable still.
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Nigel Spink, rolls the ball to Platty,
he moves it onto Paul McGrath and onto Tony Daly,
Tony Daly down the wing like a torpedo,
puts the ball up in the aiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiirrrrrrrrrr…………
for Tony Cascarino… ( to balloon over the bar….)
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Nigel Spink, rolls the ball to Platty,
he moves it onto Paul McGrath and onto Tony Daly,
Tony Daly down the wing like a torpedo,
puts the ball up in the aiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiirrrrrrrrrr…………
for Tony Cascarino… ( to balloon over the bar….)
Martinez, rolls the ball to Tyrone,
He moves it on to Ezri Konsa, and gets it back again,
Kamara sidles into the box and gets it,
and slips and trips over the ballllllllllllll,
and we concede again......
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Too soon!
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I much preferred the random element of hoofball to all this tippy tappy nonsense.
Football is so dull these days!
When did you last see someone bury one from 40 yards? Game's gone.
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Also don't like all the subs.
Bring back the days of having to stick an outfield player in goal if your keeper gets injured.
Wonderfully, brilliantly crap!
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I think we need to mix it up and go long sometimes . we have pace up front , lets use the channels
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I much preferred the random element of hoofball to all this tippy tappy nonsense.
Football is so dull these days!
When did you last see someone bury one from 40 yards? Game's gone.
I agree with you regarding attacking play, but I'm not sure that building up from the back means that still cant be a deployed. I really don't enjoy watching Manchester City or Spain play because despite having good technical players you want someone to hit a screamer.
But Liverpool and Manchester united played out from the back and still were able to play quick and entertaining attacking play.
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I much preferred the random element of hoofball to all this tippy tappy nonsense.
Football is so dull these days!
When did you last see someone bury one from 40 yards? Game's gone.
I agree with you regarding attacking play, but I'm not sure that building up from the back means that still cant be a deployed. I really don't enjoy watching Manchester City or Spain play because despite having good technical players you want someone to hit a screamer.
But Liverpool and Manchester united played out from the back and still were able to play quick and entertaining attacking play.
I agree with you mrfuse, never enjoyed watching Spain either but there's surely a balance to be found.
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From a purely selfish perspective avoid at all costs. Gives me the heebie jeebies.
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I caught Man United at Spurs on Saturday from 1979 and Bailey was rolling out short then so Man United could play out from the back. Nothing new under the sun.
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I caught Man United at Spurs on Saturday from 1979 and Bailey was rolling out short then so Man United could play out from the back. Nothing new under the sun.
Liverpool used to do it all the time, then they'd roll it back to Grobelaar and the repeat the process constantly for the rest of the game the boring bastards.
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Easier back then though when the keeper could pick it up if required.
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Easier back then though when the keeper could pick it up if required.
I was just going to say that.
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Easier back then though when the keeper could pick it up if required.
I was just going to say that.
Yeah, that's why the rule was changed
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Mings said
The manager is very much: ‘I’m not expecting this to be perfect in one month, two months, six months, maybe even 12 months but we will get it right and we’ll keep sticking to what we believe.’ When a manager sets out his long-term roadmap it smooths out any bumps along the road.”
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Mings said
The manager is very much: ‘I’m not expecting this to be perfect in one month, two months, six months, maybe even 12 months but we will get it right and we’ll keep sticking to what we believe.’ When a manager sets out his long-term roadmap it smooths out any bumps along the road.”
Very interesting and encouraging IMO. Will be interesting to see today how we manage to play out from the back against Arse as they did press high and intense against City in periods and did make trouble for them playing out from the back.
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I don’t watch much other football, but I did catch a bit of the Arsenal v Man City game during the week (whilst cooking dinner, so it didn’t have my full attention). I don’t think it was how they conceded goals, but I noticed Ramsdale passing out to players on the edge of the box with several opposition players around them. Very similar to the situation that Kamara received the ball against Leicester. It’s clearly a tactic to create space on the wings, but relies on good execution. Sometimes the pass doesn’t look like it’s on, but I suppose top level players back themselves in those situations, and ultimately football at the highest level is all about fine margins.
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When claiming a ball with his hands from a set piece, Ramsdale looks to distribute the ball early whenever he can, from whatever I've seen. Sometimes I wish Martinez would do the same, but I think there is a lack of options and movements. As you can see, Emi sometimes looks frustrated, as if he wants to set the ball rolling—literally!
For Argentina, he was able to do so very effectively, so it's in part due to his teammates getting into spaces for him.
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When claiming a ball with his hands from a set piece, Ramsdale looks to distribute the ball early whenever he can, from whatever I've seen. Sometimes I wish Martinez would do the same, but I think there is a lack of options and movements. As you can see, Emi sometimes looks frustrated, as if he wants to set the ball rolling—literally!
For Argentina, he was able to do so very effectively, so it's in part due to his teammates getting into spaces for him.
He used to look for a quick out ball a lot more frequently, especially to the fullbacks. That seems to have stopped since Emery came in.
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I'm not going to talk on Martinez for a 14 days because it bothers me that he disobeyed instructions.
I await to see next home game against Palace his performances, behaviour and reception from the crowd before I debate anymore on him
But on Emi yesterday about throwing out, he did look around again and seemed exasperated that there was no other option.
He made an excellent claim from the corner with both hands, caught the ball sweetly, and then looked to play out to launch an attack. All of the players were simply jogging away from him.
I also credit so well he initiated the second goal.
For all his stupidty he giving credit for his role in playing out from the back and making a goal.
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I'm not going to talk on Martinez for a 14 days because it bothers me that he disobeyed instructions.
I await to see next home game against Palace his performances, behaviour and reception from the crowd before I debate anymore on him
But on Emi yesterday about throwing out, he did look around again and seemed exasperated that there was no other option.
He made an excellent claim from the corner with both hands, caught the ball sweetly, and then looked to play out to launch an attack. All of the players were simply jogging away from him.
I also credit so well he initiated the second goal.
For all his stupidty he giving credit for his role in playing out from the back and making a goal.
In the same post you say you’re not talking about Martinez for 14 days but then go on to refer to his ‘stupidity’.
14 days? 14 words more like.
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I'm not going to talk on Martinez for a 14 days because it bothers me that he disobeyed instructions.
I await to see next home game against Palace his performances, behaviour and reception from the crowd before I debate anymore on him
But on Emi yesterday about throwing out, he did look around again and seemed exasperated that there was no other option.
He made an excellent claim from the corner with both hands, caught the ball sweetly, and then looked to play out to launch an attack. All of the players were simply jogging away from him.
I also credit so well he initiated the second goal.
For all his stupidty he giving credit for his role in playing out from the back and making a goal.
In the same post you say you’re not talking about Martinez for 14 days but then go on to refer to his ‘stupidity’.
14 days? 14 words more like.
Meaning to say Martinez thread and him.
I also rightfully credit him in playing out from back and observed yet again that no players available to him when he's caught the ball . He was also very good in starting the second goal and played it out from the back with much success on that occasion.
This thread is about playing out from the back so was chiefly discussing this.
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Martinez recycled the ball well only twice yesterday that I can recall: the one was for the 2nd goal, the other for Bailey who went on to hit the bar. That is pretty piss-poor and begs the question why.
In my view, there are two main reasons - (i) lack of effective wide players (Saka-Trossard; Grealish-Mahrez; Barnes-Tete) who can hold, run and defend in equal measure; (ii) the CB and midfielders are perhaps not alert enough to the necessary speed of thought and action.
Maybe a 3rd issue is Martinez not being alert enough to the need to recycle the ball quickly.
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David Raya of Brentford Spainish goalkeeper execpectional with his feet and passing. Now he has turned down a new contract not once but twice with Brentford. Can certainly see him being pursued by Emery in the summer. 27 years old and pushing to be Spanish number one.
Perfect fit.
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David Raya of Brentford Spainish goalkeeper execpectional with his feet and passing. Now he has turned down a new contract not once but twice with Brentford. Can certainly see him being pursued by Emery in the summer. 27 years old and pushing to be Spanish number one.
Perfect fit.
I think they'll be several clubs after him
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Emery on playing out from the back:
"You have to take risks in football. I am trying to keep possession of the
ball. When we have the ball with the goalkeeper, we are starting our build-up. If he is kicking the ball long, some we will win and some we will lose. I prefer to try to keep the ball ourselves.
The best teams play like this. I always try it with my teams. When I started with Lorca, that was my philosophy 20 years ago. Try to keep possession. If we have the ball, I feel better than being without the ball. My idea is to convince the players with results."
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Cheers Footy.
I think the problem with errors playing out from defence is that they just look so stupid, whereas just getting rid, time after time, and eventually (and inevitably) inviting the pressure that leads to conceding is, as it were, a hidden blunder.
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It is a confidence thing
Confidence within the players to be able to actually concentrate and pass effectively and more importantly be patient and wait for the right openings
Confidence and patience with supporters to accept what we are trying to do and be supportive of the players playing this way.
In either cases results build that confidence. There are going to be bumps along the way, even the best at it (Edison, Allison, Rodri etc) balls up sometimes when pressed.
But there have been a few times recently when we have been patient, drawn the opposition into a press then passed our way out of defence to attack with devastating effect - it really is a joy to watch.
As many have alluded to previously we finally have a footballing identity and i am so excited by the thought of what even better players will add to the team
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I do get nervous sometimes when we play out from the back but I trust Emery's vision it will all come good in the end.
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It's all about control. As soon as you launch a 50/50 up-field you're giving up on control. At times that's ok, especially if you're really good at squeezing up on a team in that transition, but you can never be sure when and where you'll be getting the ball back. If you have it and moving it around in your defence it's much easier to execute training grounds routines, etc because you have far fewer variables out of your control.
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I do get nervous sometimes when we play out from the back but I trust Emery's vision it will all come good in the end.
Thats where I’m at, I almost Shit my knickers, but it definitely seems to be improving.
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It's all about control. As soon as you launch a 50/50 up-field you're giving up on control. At times that's ok, especially if you're really good at squeezing up on a team in that transition, but you can never be sure when and where you'll be getting the ball back. If you have it and moving it around in your defence it's much easier to execute training grounds routines, etc because you have far fewer variables out of your control.
To be honest we lose control just as many times playing out from the back
Problem is when you lose it in your own third it can create problems and let’s face it has done
However, I am all in favour of playing out from the back its the way forward. Players will just have to get better get used to it or be replaced
I can tell you now Konsa will never be able to play it out from the back very well it just isn’t going to happen. He hasn’t got the skill set. It’s a simple as that
But That’s the formula we are playing and need to keep playing so that when certain players are replaced new players just fit into that system
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It's all about control. As soon as you launch a 50/50 up-field you're giving up on control. At times that's ok, especially if you're really good at squeezing up on a team in that transition, but you can never be sure when and where you'll be getting the ball back. If you have it and moving it around in your defence it's much easier to execute training grounds routines, etc because you have far fewer variables out of your control.
To be honest we lose control just as many times playing out from the back
Problem is when you lose it in your own third it can create problems and let’s face it has done
However, I am all in favour of playing out from the back its the way forward. Players will just have to get better get used to it or be replaced
I can tell you now Konsa will never be able to play it out from the back very well it just isn’t going to happen. He hasn’t got the skill set. It’s a simple as that
But That’s the formula we are playing and need to keep playing so that when certain players are replaced new players just fit into that system
Yes but we will get better at it, that's the point really. We as fans need to get used to it because Emery wants this control and will keep working until it is natural for us.
I sort of agree on Konsa but I will say he's been improving recently and looks a lot more like the player he was 2 years ago now.
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Is there data that shows goals conceded or scored as a result of playing this way? My memory can’t recall anything positive or negative. Even so, you have more chance of doing something positive with the ball than without even if it’s in your own box.
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Two goals for, three against from memory. Not sure how many we’ve conceded from lumping it and losing possession.
Has anyone noticed if we’ve got any better at keeping possession from throw-ins? We’ve been shit at them for years.
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Two goals for, three against from memory. Not sure how many we’ve conceded from lumping it and losing possession.
Has anyone noticed if we’ve got any better at keeping possession from throw-ins? We’ve been shit at them for years.
Yes, fucking long overdue
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Two goals for, three against from memory. Not sure how many we’ve conceded from lumping it and losing possession.
Has anyone noticed if we’ve got any better at keeping possession from throw-ins? We’ve been shit at them for years.
Yes, fucking long overdue
I have noticed with my trained (third) eye that more players are available for throw ins in Unai's New Way.