Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: dave.woodhall on December 21, 2022, 12:00:21 AM
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A few very quick words.
https://heroesandvillains.info/2022/12/20/reaching-for-the-star/
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Excellent article pretty much sums up my views. Non-Villa fans desperate for every good player in the world to play for the same handful of clubs are sad enough. The fact that there are some Villa fans poised to pack his bags for him so we can get a nice fee and help whatever Londonchester club make an approach first is utterly baffling.
He signed a new five year contract in January. We've no need to sell and I'd be hugely disappointed if we even considered it.
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I said the same the other day. Some Villa fans, the moment a player reaches a certain point in their career starting making lists of where we will sell him. I know we have lost good players but I’ve always said that’s almost entirely our fault. We as a club need to build around our best players and for pretty much all of my life we have failed to do that. And there is a football food chain and our job is get higher up. But this notion of every time a player goes on international duty or just does really well immediately indicating we are about to sell him is so weak minded, fragile and defeatist.
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Emi's going nowhere! He loves the Villa.
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Good article, agree completely. We've got a manager and a goalkeeper who are widely regarded as being world class. Time to build on that & act like the club we aim to be.
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Excellent article pretty much sums up my views. Non-Villa fans desperate for every good player in the world to play for the same handful of clubs are sad enough. The fact that there are some Villa fans poised to pack his bags for him so we can get a nice fee and help whatever Londonchester club make an approach first is utterly baffling.
He signed a new five year contract in January. We've no need to sell and I'd be hugely disappointed if we even considered it.
Yes another spot on article and its exactly where our minset as a club.
As Dave has rightfully said Emery hasn't joined us for us to sell our best and most high profile player 5 minutes after walking through the door.
I'm excited for the January transfer window to appear and interested to see the level to which we go recruitment wise.
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20 years of losing our best players and we're to blame for becoming hardened to it and pre-empting it.
Fine.
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Couldn’t agree more with that Dave. It’s going to take some cultural shock to the system for Villa fans to realise we’re serious about where we’re going and how we do it.
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Agree with the sentiment, but I'd just say the words 'release clause'. If a player wants to go, and somebody is willing to meet the fee, there is jack shit the club can do to stop it. OTHER THAN showing ambition in the transfer market and pulling off transfers that nobody else expects or wants us to. With Emery coming in, I'm confident again that this is our plan. So hopefully more 'Santa', than 'release'.
After Grealish left, I am more desensitised to any player fucking off. Losing Martinez anytime soon would be annoying though.
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The sale of Grealish meant we lost our best player at the time but now we have a better squad.
Our new manager needs funds to take us to the next level.
Selling El Dibu whilst his stock is highest would most likely be detrimental in the short term but longer term would be a net benefit.
It's hardly baffling or fragile to suggest.
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I said the same the other day. Some Villa fans, the moment a player reaches a certain point in their career starting making lists of where we will sell him. I know we have lost good players but I’ve always said that’s almost entirely our fault. We as a club need to build around our best players and for pretty much all of my life we have failed to do that. And there is a football food chain and our job is get higher up. But this notion of every time a player goes on international duty or just does really well immediately indicating we are about to sell him is so weak minded, fragile and defeatist.
What gets me is the type of Villa fan who thinks a club owned by NSWE, culturally, is the same as the club owned by Doug Ellis. Sawiris and Edens must have been scratching their heads when Grealish and Family (supposed Villa fans) inserted a clause in their boy's contract to facilitate a move 'to a club that can win trophies' should the opportunity arise...Wes and Nassef would surely have been thinking, "but why not stay here - at the club you support - and try to win trophies with us?"
The ingrained defeatist, smalltime attitude that *some* Villa fans have is baffling and makes no sense. Believe in the Club. Get behind it - Ellis is long gone.
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I called it as 'Dougification' on twitter.
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I'll attempt a defence of our fans expecting the worst. It's not a reflection on Villa, it's modern football. Success is now only about collecting expensive players, either to improve your team or stop others doing so. On that basis, unless we play the same game virtually all our best players will eventually be poached. Not because Villa isn't a big club with big ambitions, but because football has been designed to sustain a rich-kids-get-everything-they-want model.
Although to be clear, I don't think he's going anywhere for the foreseeable.
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I called it as 'Dougification' on twitter.
Doug popped into my dream last night, he was smiling and tanned but not particularly well dressed in a dated suit and a pale blue v neck jumper. This adds nothing to the discussion but it is the first time I’ve had him pop in.
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I called it as 'Dougification' on twitter.
That's the very word. A whole generation who think Villa are incapable of winning trophies and are deemed not worthy enough to have world class players.
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Deleted - double post
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Great read Dave.
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Emi's going nowhere! He loves the Villa.
Emi will be gone this summer.
Like every other PL player, he loves winning, he loves the adulation, and he loves the money and the lifestyle. He will say all the right things, but this game is, like it or not, all about the money. Loyalty doesn’t exist. His agent/team will have demanded clauses in his contract when he re-signed (fact) to include buy-outs in the event of relegation, a minimum fee being met, etc. Just like with Grealish, all Villa can do is price into those clauses compensation.
It’s a money business. And every year fans get a slap round the face as a reminder.
The only opportunity to change that destiny is to qualify for Europe (and even that may not be enough).
I love Emi - but he won’t be a Villa player come September.
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You mean FACT, not fact.
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'FACT'
I think you mean opinion.
He won't go unless our owners are prepared to sell him.
We didn't need to extend his contract. It was a reward for doing well, so won't have NEEDED to put in buy out clauses.
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What was needed and demanded are two different things. Buy out clauses are a part of the game.
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Not the same for a goalkeeper though, is it. There are only a very limited number of first team positions available, and for him to move on he is going to want that at a club that is going to be competing to win trophies regularly, not just qualify for, the Champions League. So out of those, where realistically is going to offer that? None of the English clubs need him (nor realistically do Real Madrid, PSG or Bayern Munich), and outside of those clubs who will match the terms he is on at Villa?
Emi wasted the best part of 10 years on the bench at Arsenal, he won't go anywhere he is not guaranteed to be the starting keeper, so what better options does he realistically have than staying here at the moment?
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Too many people i come in contact with seem to state their opinion as 'FACT' these days, and not just on internet forums. I wish they'd just 'FACT' off.
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Probably Man Utd if we're honest Pat, but it doesn't mean he'll definitely want to go.
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Given that he seems to be playing up the shithousing aspect of his game, surely Atletico Madrid would be his only natural destination?
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Too many people i come in contact with seem to state their opinion as 'FACT' these days, and not just on internet forums. I wish they'd just 'FACT' off.
What he said was fact though.
No need to get your knickers in a twist because you disapprove of the syntax.
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Too many people i come in contact with seem to state their opinion as 'FACT' these days, and not just on internet forums. I wish they'd just 'FACT' off.
What he said was fact though.
No need to get your knickers in a twist because you disapprove of the syntax.
No it wasn't, for it to be a fact we'd need evidence to prove there is a clause, without that it's an opinion, regardless of how strongly you believe it or not.
The only FACT we have is that he's contracted to the club until 2027.
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It's a fact that release clauses are regularly included in players contracts.
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It's a fact that release clauses are regularly included in players contracts.
What's the % split between those with and without release clauses in recent time
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I have a problem when people make statements either side of the argument without knowledge or facts to back it up.
I have absolutely no idea how long Emi will remain a Villa player, nothing I have read on here informs me either way.
I hope he stays because it will be very difficult to get another as good as him and the less disruption the better.
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Bob, i don't think you really know what the word 'FACT' means, i think you need to do more research.
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Come the summer, we will find out.
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I thought it had been reported that the owners were extremely reluctant to incorporate release clauses into new contracts after the Grealish saga.
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I thought it had been reported that the owners were extremely reluctant to incorporate release clauses into new contracts after the Grealish saga.
I realise some deals might struggle to happen without them but they are something of a sword of damocles hanging over the club that it subject to them, a nightmare to plan around
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I thought it had been reported that the owners were extremely reluctant to incorporate release clauses into new contracts after the Grealish saga.
I would think that as in most cases it depends on who the player is, and the relative strength of the relationship. I'd be fairly certain that Luiz has probably got one in his, seeing as we wanted to keep him and he had Arsenal after him. If somebody like Nakamba was after a new contract, he wouldn't be as well placed to insist on one. I don't think they're necessarily all bad in any case. Grealish probably would have engineered a move to City once he knew they wanted him anyway, and the buyout just guaranteed absolutely top dollar, whereas we might have got much less.
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Money talks and players have their heads turned.
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A few months back I was chatting to a Man Utd fan, and I was moaning about Gerrard. He asked me who I would like as manager if and when we got rid of Gerrard. I reply by saying Pochettino. He nearly had a coronary he laughed so much. I asked him why he thought it was so funny and he said that thought that if Pochettino was going to join an English club outside of the Sky 6 then he thought Everton would be a good shout. When I stopped laughing I asked him why the hell he would consider Everton ahead of Villa, and he replied with all sincerity that he thought Everton were more prestigious than Villa. The reason for this convoluted explanation is that this is how much of the football world perceives Villa. We need to change that perception, and the way to start changing that perception is to start winning trophies on a regular basis. This is why it boils my piss when we repeatedly blow our chances of winning the league cup or the FA Cup. I would say winning the FA Cup this season would be more beneficial for the club in terms of momentum and prestige than finishing 7th We need to start changing perceptions, and winning trophies on a regular basis will do that, and when you start winning trophies you start attracting better players. Better players means more trophies etc etc.
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Sadly in order to attract players of potential, you also have to demonstrate that you will let them leave for a better opportunity/more money when their performances warrant it.
Our role in that is to make sure when we sell a player for £50m who we purchased for £12m is we replace him with a player we buy for £50m and sell for £100m later. That is our route to eventually securing a regular top half finish, then top 6 with the odd trophy thrown in hopefully and then Europe every season.
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A few months back I was chatting to a Man Utd fan, and I was moaning about Gerrard. He asked me who I would like as manager if and when we got rid of Gerrard. I reply by saying Pochettino. He nearly had a coronary he laughed so much. I asked him why he thought it was so funny and he said that thought that if Pochettino was going to join an English club outside of the Sky 6 then he thought Everton would be a good shout. When I stopped laughing I asked him why the hell he would consider Everton ahead of Villa, and he replied with all sincerity that he thought Everton were more prestigious than Villa. The reason for this convoluted explanation is that this is how much of the football world perceives Villa. We need to change that perception, and the way to start changing that perception is to start winning trophies on a regular basis. This is why it boils my piss when we repeatedly blow our chances of winning the league cup or the FA Cup. I would say winning the FA Cup this season would be more beneficial for the club in terms of momentum and prestige than finishing 7th We need to start changing perceptions, and winning trophies on a regular basis will do that, and when you start winning trophies you start attracting better players. Better players means more trophies etc etc.
I don’t disagree that we could do with more trophies but that perception is odd as Everton last won the league only 5 years after us in the 80s & last won a trophy a year before our last one.
I think Everton only have a more prestigious image in some people’s minds because they are seen alongside Liverpool, whereas we…..
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I thought it had been reported that the owners were extremely reluctant to incorporate release clauses into new contracts after the Grealish saga.
I would think that as in most cases it depends on who the player is, and the relative strength of the relationship. I'd be fairly certain that Luiz has probably got one in his, seeing as we wanted to keep him and he had Arsenal after him. If somebody like Nakamba was after a new contract, he wouldn't be as well placed to insist on one. I don't think they're necessarily all bad in any case. Grealish probably would have engineered a move to City once he knew they wanted him anyway, and the buyout just guaranteed absolutely top dollar, whereas we might have got much less.
I think this is exactly it, I would be shocked if Emi and Luiz didn't have one. Maybe even Matty Cash. There must come a point in any contract talks that protecting the investments becomes a factor - and I would think with Emi and Luiz it would have been better to get them to sign than to potentially leave on a free at some point in the future.
How much those clauses are is another matter clearly - but when it comes to selling prized players, we have never really been mugs.
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A few months back I was chatting to a Man Utd fan, and I was moaning about Gerrard. He asked me who I would like as manager if and when we got rid of Gerrard. I reply by saying Pochettino. He nearly had a coronary he laughed so much. I asked him why he thought it was so funny and he said that thought that if Pochettino was going to join an English club outside of the Sky 6 then he thought Everton would be a good shout. When I stopped laughing I asked him why the hell he would consider Everton ahead of Villa, and he replied with all sincerity that he thought Everton were more prestigious than Villa. The reason for this convoluted explanation is that this is how much of the football world perceives Villa. We need to change that perception, and the way to start changing that perception is to start winning trophies on a regular basis. This is why it boils my piss when we repeatedly blow our chances of winning the league cup or the FA Cup. I would say winning the FA Cup this season would be more beneficial for the club in terms of momentum and prestige than finishing 7th We need to start changing perceptions, and winning trophies on a regular basis will do that, and when you start winning trophies you start attracting better players. Better players means more trophies etc etc.
I don’t disagree that we could do with more trophies but that perception is odd as Everton last won the league only 5 years after us in the 80s & last won a trophy a year before our last one.
I think Everton only have a more prestigious image in some people’s minds because they are seen alongside Liverpool, whereas we…..
But surely, both clubs main claim to fame is the fact twice a year Villa and Everton play in the "most played fixture derby"
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I don’t disagree that we could do with more trophies but that perception is odd as Everton last won the league only 5 years after us in the 80s & last won a trophy a year before our last one.
I think Everton only have a more prestigious image in some people’s minds because they are seen alongside Liverpool, whereas we…..
I'd argue the opposite, I think Everton are firmly in the shadow of their neighbours and the other North West clubs, whereas we're by far the biggest club outside of the North West and London.
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The only way to change the way Aston Villa are perceived is to regularly batter other teams, move up the table, sign or develop players who get us winning things and keep doing it. Banging on about how big, great and classy we are counts for fuck all and always will.
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Not sure where to put this but I read on BT Sport website a list of the 30 players with the most premier league appearances. Not counting John Terry who did not play in the P L for us ,ten of them had played for Villa. I was pleasantly surprised.
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I don’t disagree that we could do with more trophies but that perception is odd as Everton last won the league only 5 years after us in the 80s & last won a trophy a year before our last one.
I think Everton only have a more prestigious image in some people’s minds because they are seen alongside Liverpool, whereas we…..
I'd argue the opposite, I think Everton are firmly in the shadow of their neighbours and the other North West clubs, whereas we're by far the biggest club outside of the North West and London.
I think you misunderstand what I am saying. I am saying Everton receive reflected glory from a neighbouring club who have been much more successful in our lifetime. We have only our own success to rely on for our reputation as there is no one in the region to drag us into the headlines alongside them. Neither us nor Everton have enough recent success to have a big reputation under our own steam.
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It's a fact that release clauses are regularly included in players contracts.
What's the % split between those with and without release clauses in recent time
50:50
They either have it or they don't.
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It's a fact that release clauses are regularly included in players contracts.
What's the % split between those with and without release clauses in recent time
50:50
They either have it or they don't.
yet another BobFact.
For cough, Bob.
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I don’t disagree that we could do with more trophies but that perception is odd as Everton last won the league only 5 years after us in the 80s & last won a trophy a year before our last one.
I think Everton only have a more prestigious image in some people’s minds because they are seen alongside Liverpool, whereas we…..
I'd argue the opposite, I think Everton are firmly in the shadow of their neighbours and the other North West clubs, whereas we're by far the biggest club outside of the North West and London.
I think you misunderstand what I am saying. I am saying Everton receive reflected glory from a neighbouring club who have been much more successful in our lifetime. We have only our own success to rely on for our reputation as there is no one in the region to drag us into the headlines alongside them. Neither us nor Everton have enough recent success to have a big reputation under our own steam.
A scan of our overall honours would suggest Everton and Villa are similar sized clubs.
But we won six of our seven league titles before WWI. Some of those before goal nets were a thing. Of the last one we won, that was pretty much painted as year of the underdog; an odd year when Liverpool, Forest or whoever were off colour. Rather than a big club regaining its rightful place.
In contrast, Everton's nine league titles are more spaced out. They were a big deal in the 60s and 80s and were viewed as an established member of the 'Big Five' at the tail end of that decade. We possibly edge the 90s (what I wouldn't give for their FA Cup win in 95, mind) and both clubs have pissed the bed at various stages since then.
It's entirely subjective, ofc. But can understand why they would be viewed as bigger/ more prestigious call it what you will.
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It's a fact that release clauses are regularly included in players contracts.
What's the % split between those with and without release clauses in recent time
50:50
They either have it or they don't.
yet another BobFact.
For cough, Bob.
To quote Balckadder - God It's pathetic
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I don’t disagree that we could do with more trophies but that perception is odd as Everton last won the league only 5 years after us in the 80s & last won a trophy a year before our last one.
I think Everton only have a more prestigious image in some people’s minds because they are seen alongside Liverpool, whereas we…..
I'd argue the opposite, I think Everton are firmly in the shadow of their neighbours and the other North West clubs, whereas we're by far the biggest club outside of the North West and London.
I think you misunderstand what I am saying. I am saying Everton receive reflected glory from a neighbouring club who have been much more successful in our lifetime. We have only our own success to rely on for our reputation as there is no one in the region to drag us into the headlines alongside them. Neither us nor Everton have enough recent success to have a big reputation under our own steam.
How does that work for Small Heath.?
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The sale of Grealish meant we lost our best player at the time but now we have a better squad.
Our new manager needs funds to take us to the next level.
Selling El Dibu whilst his stock is highest would most likely be detrimental in the short term but longer term would be a net benefit.
It's hardly baffling or fragile to suggest.
Havent read the whole thread so this might of been said, whilst i get what your saying, selling the best goalie currently in the world, doesn’t make you a better team, especially when the players bought may or may not work out or may take time to bed in. We need long term planing, but we’re also living in the here and now.
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In the eyes of the world, Aston Villa are like the 15th race car on the grid. Just making up the numbers!! They have next to no idea of our financial clout.
I said it before, we need to act like a big club and start bidding for world renowned players. Why not put a bid in for Harry Kane?
Spurs are going nowhere and with our financial backing he has more potential to win something at the Villa. He has goal records galore, a miserable looking trophy cabinet and we are desperate for a goal scoring striker.
Put a bid in now. Even if he tells us to feck off, we have upped our status in the eyes of the world.
Reach for a star.
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Great read Dave.
Thanks Daz.
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I have mentioned before that i do not want to hoover up huge fees and wages on any old player but we do need to start making people sit up and notice by our actions in the transfer market
When City bought Robhinio the world sat up and noticed and it was he, with a shit Manager such as Hughes, that started their ball rolling.
Chelsea era was Gullit, Vialli, Zola et al
Then once Sky get sexed up about the club they get lots of positive press and it snowballs and urban myths begin to grow.
Our highest transfer fee was £38m for Buendia who we have suggested will fill a Grealish gap and we can build a team around him whereas that sort of money buys you a half decent full back nowadays
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I have mentioned before that i do not want to hoover up huge fees and wages on any old player but we do need to start making people sit up and notice by our actions in the transfer market
When City bought Robhinio the world sat up and noticed and it was he, with a shit Manager such as Hughes, that started their ball rolling.
Chelsea era was Gullit, Vialli, Zola et al
Then once Sky get sexed up about the club they get lots of positive press and it snowballs and urban myths begin to grow.
Our highest transfer fee was £38m for Buendia who we have suggested will fill a Grealish gap and we can build a team around him whereas that sort of money buys you a half decent full back nowadays
Kamara is the type of signing I want us to make more of, a genuinely highly rated up and coming international star that people were surprised chose us. A few more like that (the lad Thuram for example) where it's not necessarily the fee because there's a deal to be had, but it's getting the profile of player expected to head elsewhere over you, and people's perceptions change.
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I have mentioned before that i do not want to hoover up huge fees and wages on any old player but we do need to start making people sit up and notice by our actions in the transfer market
When City bought Robhinio the world sat up and noticed and it was he, with a shit Manager such as Hughes, that started their ball rolling.
Chelsea era was Gullit, Vialli, Zola et al
Then once Sky get sexed up about the club they get lots of positive press and it snowballs and urban myths begin to grow.
Our highest transfer fee was £38m for Buendia who we have suggested will fill a Grealish gap and we can build a team around him whereas that sort of money buys you a half decent full back nowadays
Kamara is the type of signing I want us to make more of, a genuinely highly rated up and coming international star that people were surprised chose us. A few more like that (the lad Thuram for example) where it's not necessarily the fee because there's a deal to be had, but it's getting the profile of player expected to head elsewhere over you, and people's perceptions change.
Yes I agree, under Deano we bought lots of players but most either delivered, gained in value or we didn't lose too much value.
Thuram is a great example but we also need to bring on our own more successfully. We often seem to have a crop of youngsters every few years who don't quite make it. Need Emery to sort that out.
Although not against in principle giving 30ish year olds like Carlos, Digne and Countinho all big contracts with little sell on value potentially is risky for us where we are - fine if they get us to 'the next level' but not if they don't.
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Emi's going nowhere! He loves the Villa.
Emi will be gone this summer.
Like every other PL player, he loves winning, he loves the adulation, and he loves the money and the lifestyle. He will say all the right things, but this game is, like it or not, all about the money. Loyalty doesn’t exist. His agent/team will have demanded clauses in his contract when he re-signed (fact) to include buy-outs in the event of relegation, a minimum fee being met, etc. Just like with Grealish, all Villa can do is price into those clauses compensation.
It’s a money business. And every year fans get a slap round the face as a reminder.
The only opportunity to change that destiny is to qualify for Europe (and even that may not be enough).
I love Emi - but he won’t be a Villa player come September.
True, sad to say.
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I imagine, if he ever wants a move, he could act like a bell end :D
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Too many people i come in contact with seem to state their opinion as 'FACT' these days, and not just on internet forums. I wish they'd just 'FACT' off.
it's the post-truth era, exemplified by Trump and Johnson
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I don’t disagree that we could do with more trophies but that perception is odd as Everton last won the league only 5 years after us in the 80s & last won a trophy a year before our last one.
I think Everton only have a more prestigious image in some people’s minds because they are seen alongside Liverpool, whereas we…..
I'd argue the opposite, I think Everton are firmly in the shadow of their neighbours and the other North West clubs, whereas we're by far the biggest club outside of the North West and London.
I think you misunderstand what I am saying. I am saying Everton receive reflected glory from a neighbouring club who have been much more successful in our lifetime. We have only our own success to rely on for our reputation as there is no one in the region to drag us into the headlines alongside them. Neither us nor Everton have enough recent success to have a big reputation under our own steam.
How does that work for Small Heath.?
That is exactly my point. No reflected glory for us.
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I don’t disagree that we could do with more trophies but that perception is odd as Everton last won the league only 5 years after us in the 80s & last won a trophy a year before our last one.
I think Everton only have a more prestigious image in some people’s minds because they are seen alongside Liverpool, whereas we…..
I'd argue the opposite, I think Everton are firmly in the shadow of their neighbours and the other North West clubs, whereas we're by far the biggest club outside of the North West and London.
I think you misunderstand what I am saying. I am saying Everton receive reflected glory from a neighbouring club who have been much more successful in our lifetime. We have only our own success to rely on for our reputation as there is no one in the region to drag us into the headlines alongside them. Neither us nor Everton have enough recent success to have a big reputation under our own steam.
How does that work for Small Heath.?
That is exactly my point. No reflected glory for us.
I am really struggling with your logic.
UTV
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Everton receive more attention because of the status of their neighbours, we receive less because of ours.
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Everton receive more attention because of the status of their neighbours, we receive less because of ours.
And long may that continue, unless of course we want SH to become the new version of Liverpool of the last 60 years.
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Everton receive more attention because of the status of their neighbours, we receive less because of ours.
I think we receive less because we have been almost an irrelevance for over 10 years whilst Everton maintained their PL status.