Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Mister E on September 18, 2022, 02:26:00 PM
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I'm interested in how people see the set-up and what Gerrard thinks he's trying to achieve.
I'll kick it off with these thoughts.
Digne is emblematic of where we are. Gerrard's first signing, I was enthusiastic about him when at Everton and pleased that we signed him (despite not really agreeing that leftback, with Targett, was a priority area for reinforcement). Now, I'd be happy for him to be dropped and for the tactical 'experiment' to be stopped.
With the players we have, I'd be in favour of lining up with a back 4 which transitions into a back 3 when we're in possession - as Arsenal and Citeh do. If we did this, we'd focus our attacks down our RHS through Cash and others.
Starting line-up (assumes all are fit): Martinez-Cash-Konsa-Carlos-Mings / Luiz-Kamara-Ramsey / Coutinho-Watkins (I'd prefer Archer ...)-Buendia
In possession this goes to: Martinez-Konsa-Carlos-Mings / Cash-Luiz-Kamara-Ramsey / Coutinho-Watkins-Buendia
Out of possession: Martinez-Cash-Konsa-Carlos-Mings / Luiz-Kamara-Ramsey-Buendia / Coutinho-Watkins
Obviously, they'd be variations on this depending on the opposition, and we'll have to find a decent long-term replacement for Luiz. Cash, over time, will be challenged by KKH, and A Ramsey may well come into contention too.
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Does that mean we rely on Mings to provide width on the left with Ramsey?
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personally - I would like some of the attacking responsibility to be taken of the fullback - more simialr to the role under dean smith, where the would overlap - but not neccessary be the main width outlet. I dont think either of them are good enough going forward or backwards to have so much to cover - and would benefit from being a bit more traditional fullbacks
I would like the midfield to and / or the forward players to provide some more the that width depending on the team setup - I think ramsey, watkins and baileys pace could be used more - by mixing it up rather than playing out from the back so often - and / or moving the ball more quickly at times
In general - I think we would benefit from having the fullbacks play as fullbacks and the midfeidlers play as midfielders - because that better suits the players we have.
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A proper anwser to this would take forever but the short version:
Our defensive shape is decent, this doesn't need much to change.
We do need to improve our transition into our defensive shape. This can be the niggly fouls approach or we can train so that we start with the nearest player filling the gap and then filter players into the 'correct' places as we can.
When we win the ball back we need to give more options to shift into attack, we're terrible for only having 1 option for the pass, which is why we're slow and predictable.
In attack we need more coached movement where we force defenders to make decisions to hold shape or track a run.
I honestly think we could coach this into the team between now and the next game if we wanted to, as it is I can't see anything in our play to show what we're doing at BMH.
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Martinez
Cash Konza Mings Digne
Kamara Luiz
Bailey Buendia Guilbert
Ings
-Martinez is the best goalkeeper I've ever known at Villa
-Konza and Mings for all their faults are still the best partnership for defence that we currently have
-Kamara and Luiz would have been something that I'd have liked to see more of
-Buendia invested in and allowed to pull the strings and have fun
-Guilbert as left midfield: Yes. He had the legs and enthusiasm and I'm sick of seeing McGinn and Ramsay there now.
-Ings over Watkins for his finishing.
Not perfect but I'd be happy to scrap whatever we're currently asking the players to try and do. It seems to work one in ten games. I think this would see us more competitive and creating chances.
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Go back to 4-2-3-1.
What we're playing now just isn't very interesting to watch and leads to low chance creation so it really isn't working.
Full backs are big part of it in this Gerrard formation but problem I have is with positions they're taking up teams are comfortably crowding them out and they're having to cross from difficult areas. When was the last time one of Digne/Cash on the overlap got fed a pass in the box and were able to slide a cross along six yard box? They're both crossing from 25 yards out usually.
Potential bad injury to Kamara is another disappointment otherwise it really should be him and Luiz in the double pivot up to world cup break, it worked v Man. City after all.
Beyond that I think at this point in his career Ramsey drifting in from left isn't a bad idea and then you perm three attackers for other positions depending on form.
It's nothing a good manager can't fix....so well remain an issue for next two months unless we lose our next three in which case Gerrard is surely gone.
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A new manager would be a great start. Until then we're just wasting time.
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A new manager would be a great start. Until then we're just wasting time.
This.
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Go back to 4-2-3-1.
What we're playing now just isn't very interesting to watch and leads to low chance creation so it really isn't working.
Full backs are big part of it in this Gerrard formation but problem I have is with positions they're taking up teams are comfortably crowding them out and they're having to cross from difficult areas. When was the last time one of Digne/Cash on the overlap got fed a pass in the box and were able to slide a cross along six yard box? They're both crossing from 25 yards out usually.
Potential bad injury to Kamara is another disappointment otherwise it really should be him and Luiz in the double pivot up to world cup break, it worked v Man. City after all.
Beyond that I think at this point in his career Ramsey drifting in from left isn't a bad idea and then you perm three attackers for other positions depending on form.
It's nothing a good manager can't fix....so well remain an issue for next two months unless we lose our next three in which case Gerrard is surely gone.
I think this is the big issue with the fullbacks providing width - I think Ings and Watkins would thrive if they could get service like that into the box
Basically they are not providing width - cash cant cross, and digne cant beat a player
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Does that mean we rely on Mings to provide width on the left with Ramsey?
No, we should get that from Ramsey and Coutinho
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4231 until the end of the season.
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To win.
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To win.
It'll never catch on.
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"All you've got to do is Win" (Bowie, Young Americans - best track imo).
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I really don’t get the criticism of Cash and Digne. I think they are excellent players. I think the midfield is the major issue and once it is fixed, the rest of the team would function to suit. The Man City game shown that.
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We sign a playmaker who has all the ability in the world, then constantly hoof the ball over his head, which, to me suggests that Gerrard doesn't rate the midfielders. So, lets play with the ball on the floor once we replace the average midfielders, and sign a striker who can control the ball, and we'll be fine with the current formation.
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You usually have to win the midfield to win matches.
So I would go 4 -2-3-1 providing a platform and defensive screen.
I believe this system would most suit the players we have.
The 3 a combination from Coutinho Buendia Ramsey Bailey Luiz even Mcginn.
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I really don’t get the criticism of Cash and Digne. I think they are excellent players. I think the midfield is the major issue and once it is fixed, the rest of the team would function to suit. The Man City game shown that.
Digne has flattered to deceive since he joined and has the physical strength of an anorexic puppy.
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We sign a playmaker who has all the ability in the world, then constantly hoof the ball over his head, which, to me suggests that Gerrard doesn't rate the midfielders. So, lets play with the ball on the floor once we replace the average midfielders, and sign a striker who can control the ball, and we'll be fine with the current formation.
Yeah, let’s get brilliant midfielders to cover the full backs instead of average ones, that’ll work.
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I really don’t get the criticism of Cash and Digne. I think they are excellent players. I think the midfield is the major issue and once it is fixed, the rest of the team would function to suit. The Man City game shown that.
Digne has flattered to deceive since he joined and has the physical strength of an anorexic puppy.
One thing I have noticed is that Digne links up well with Coutinho when the latter drifts out to the left. Would definitely look at trying that if we go to a 4-2-3-1. Coutinho on the left, Bailey on the right and then one of Buendia, Ramsey or McGinn in the central role.
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Our exploitation of space isn't good enough.
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The first team that needs a change making to it is the coaching team, starting at the top.
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Our exploitation of space isn't good enough.
Yeah, we haven’t even been to the moon for half a century now.
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Our exploitation of space isn't good enough.
Yeah, we haven’t even been to the moon for half a century now.
The signing of Antonio Luna finally makes sense now.
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The first team that needs a change making to it (https://t.me/s/betpokiesnz) is the coaching team, starting at the top.
That's for sure. Change the coaching team, and the rest of the team will change. But the coaches don't think so ;D
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On this topic, here's some more info -
https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2022/sep/22/football-formations-hybrid-systems (https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2022/sep/22/football-formations-hybrid-systems)
Before every game the ritual for any fan, pundit, player or coach is to look at the lineups and formations. The debates of how a tactical battle between one team playing 4-4-2 and the other operating with 3-5-2, for example, will be discussed, but in the modern era things are a lot more complex and players do not function in a rigid system. Instead, they have individual roles within a carefully designed blueprint.
All systems are hybrids and dynamic nowadays and defining them in terms of traditional formations is too simplistic. How a team lines up for kick-off does not reflect what is going to happen for the next 90 minutes. Top-level football is becoming like the NFL, where coaches have specific plans for different phases of play. Players will know where they need to be when their team are in possession in order to get the ball to the most effective players at the business end of the pitch.
The best example I have seen of fluidity within gameplay recently was Chelsea v Tottenham. I really liked what Chelsea were doing when in a back five: Reece James was on the right of three centre-backs and Ruben Loftus-Cheek was at right wing-back. Within James’s remit was to go tight to Son Heung-min and if the South Korean went into midfield James went with him and others would cover the space he vacated.
Sometimes James was part of a back three with Loftus-Cheek at right wing-back, at times those roles were reversed and on other occasions James was a central midfielder or right-back. He and Loftus-Cheek had three or four roles within one job. These are the multifaceted aspects of modern football.
Chelsea Women under Emma Hayes operate with the same philosophy. Last Sunday, against Liverpool, they were fluid in how they moved and rotated. Central midfielders ended up on the left, strikers at left-back. There was so much rotation, maybe a little too much. It was possibly a case of experimenting to see how they could use different plans throughout the season. It was their first game and they were trying to get used to the fluidity levels required.
Teams often defend with four or five and attack with five or six. We have seen it a lot under Pep Guardiola at Manchester City. He used to have one full-back who would come into central midfield and now we pretty much see two; those two are part of his four in defence and then six attack.
Players such as Kevin De Bruyne can not be pigeonholed as being one position. He drifts to where he can make the most impact. Trying to define his role is impossible. He just knows where he should be to make the most of the incredible qualities he has, whether that is out wide or through the middle, and a hybrid attacking system allows him to move into the right positions at the best time.
These are complex football theories and it takes great coaching to get players to understand what is demanded from them. The best coaches can simplify matters to allow information to be taken on board. If you have watched the recent Arsenal documentary you will know how Mikel Arteta breaks things down with his drawings and clear explanations.
Granit Xhaka has played significantly higher up the pitch for Arsenal this season, pushing on because someone behind him has done likewise. People think of Xhaka as a defensively minded midfielder but he is now moving into the right positions in more attacking areas.
If you look at his heatmap, he is a lot higher up overall because Arsenal start in a back four but when they are in possession they move to a three and Oleksandr Zinchenko or Ben White move into midfield, allowing Xhaka to progress up the pitch. Occasionally both full-backs move up, with Thomas Partey dropping back to cover as a third centre-back.
Football is a dynamic environment, adapting and changing for the better. Tactics are not limited to rigid formations. The best industries use research to improve and football is doing that by using stats to make the most of your strengths and others’ weaknesses.
Although some of what is said here is obvious, I struggle to see how Villa is using the available data to create a more tailored approach to each game, using the strengths of the squad in different ways.
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I agree with most of that article but I think he is overstating it a little.
Look at the Chelsea example, the 'correct' bit is that they had James staying close to Son. Everything else after that is a result of that not extra tactical layers on top.
It's also silly to compare to the NFL where the stop-start nature of the game makes pretty much every play the equivalent of a setp piece move. You cannot plan to that extent in a 'live' game so instead you give broad instructions on the shape you want in various areas of the pitch and then work on how to get players into those positions quickly.
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Emery is tactically flexible but likes a 4-2-3-1.
Theres a use of full backs attacking but in a far more structured and useful system than under SG.
Also we will become a team that will build up play from the back as well as having a press on the opposition so I feel likes of Watkins and Buendia will flourish.
Not only this with emphasis to attack Ings will be vital in the system and playing to his strengths we can see him as a regular goalscorer.
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For the first time in over a decade I genuinely won't presume to even stick my oar in on this subject. In comes a manager who obviously knows more than all but, what, maximum 10 in the whole of his profession? It's a crazy situation I don't think we've ever been in before, to be at the real bleeding edge of things.
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I really can't see past 4-2-3-1 with the team we have. 4-3-3 just doesn't seem to suit the players at all. Having the two players in front of the defence will make even more sense when Kamara is fit, him and Luiz will be as good a ball playing double pivot as just about anywhere.
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I really can't see past 4-2-3-1 with the team we have. 4-3-3 just doesn't seem to suit the players at all. Having the two players in front of the defence will make even more sense when Kamara is fit, him and Luiz will be as good a ball playing double pivot as just about anywhere.
He's been playing 4-4-2 a lot season according to that video posted earlier
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The team should be set up to win all matches. There you go, that's my expert opinion.
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I really can't see past 4-2-3-1 with the team we have. 4-3-3 just doesn't seem to suit the players at all. Having the two players in front of the defence will make even more sense when Kamara is fit, him and Luiz will be as good a ball playing double pivot as just about anywhere.
He's been playing 4-4-2 a lot season according to that video posted earlier
Well you'd assume if that's true he's got the players to do it. I think that would be even worse than 4-3-3 with our current team.
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I really can't see past 4-2-3-1 with the team we have. 4-3-3 just doesn't seem to suit the players at all. Having the two players in front of the defence will make even more sense when Kamara is fit, him and Luiz will be as good a ball playing double pivot as just about anywhere.
He's been playing 4-4-2 a lot season according to that video posted earlier
Well you'd assume if that's true he's got the players to do it. I think that would be even worse than 4-3-3 with our current team.
Yeah the trouble is the forwards. You can adjust the midfield 4 style he used at Valencia, with two sitters-and-shuttlers (especially when Kamara's back), one true winger and one more tucked in on the other side like an attacking Des Bremner (Coutinho, Buendia, Ramsey, maybe even McGinn could do this). The problem is, you need two forwards sufficiently mobile to drop wide and technically able to take up creative duties. Not sure we have those.
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I really can't see past 4-2-3-1 with the team we have. 4-3-3 just doesn't seem to suit the players at all. Having the two players in front of the defence will make even more sense when Kamara is fit, him and Luiz will be as good a ball playing double pivot as just about anywhere.
He's been playing 4-4-2 a lot season according to that video posted earlier
Well you'd assume if that's true he's got the players to do it. I think that would be even worse than 4-3-3 with our current team.
Yeah the trouble is the forwards. You can adjust the midfield 4 style he used at Valencia, with two sitters-and-shuttlers (especially when Kamara's back), one true winger and one more tucked in on the other side like an attacking Des Bremner (Coutinho, Buendia, Ramsey, maybe even McGinn could do this). The problem is, you need two forwards sufficiently mobile to drop wide and technically able to take up creative duties. Not sure we have those.
The asymmetric 442 looked to me what I'd always seen Ferguson's peak Man Utd team as, Giggs flying and advanced in front of solid Irwin and on the other side, Beckham deeper with Neville overlapping him.
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That's the thing though, it's not quite that because of the forwards. That older style of 4-4-2 had two out-and-out central strikers (Cole and...him) or split forwards that basically made it a 4-2-3-1 (Sheringham dropping deep).
The latter is obviously a default formation these days but the former is basically impossible as you leave too much space in midfield, either in the attacking bit or the defensive bit. So the successful strike partnerships these days involve forwards who double as wingers and deep-forwards, which involves learning a lot of pretty complicated movements. We'll see if our lads are up to it, but I'm not sure.
That said - to repeat my earlier point, if Emery thinks it might work then who am I to complain? Guy knows so much about football obviously, amazing position to be in for us.
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I think with Watkins prepared to run all over the shop, and having an ability a bit wider (but not too wide) and Ings ability to drop a bit deeper, it can work.
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That's the thing though, it's not quite that because of the forwards. That older style of 4-4-2 had two out-and-out central strikers (Cole and...him) or split forwards that basically made it a 4-2-3-1 (Sheringham dropping deep).
The latter is obviously a default formation these days but the former is basically impossible as you leave too much space in midfield, either in the attacking bit or the defensive bit. So the successful strike partnerships these days involve forwards who double as wingers and deep-forwards, which involves learning a lot of pretty complicated movements. We'll see if our lads are up to it, but I'm not sure.
That said - to repeat my earlier point, if Emery thinks it might work then who am I to complain? Guy knows so much about football obviously, amazing position to be in for us.
I'm optimistic as I think they are suited to it and are actually crying out for someone like Emery to plan and train for it properly.
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Well if he can't, hard to imagine who could! It is clearly harsh to judge them on how they played under the coaching vacuum that was Steven Geeven.
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We tried 4 4 2 with a diamond 4 and Ings Watkins up front.
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In the Claret & Blue Podcast interview, Guillem Balague dismissed the question of how Emery sets up in terms of formation saying something like "nobody plays like that anymore". He went on to say that we'll have a different shape depending on whether we have the ball or not, how the opposition set up, what the score is etc. It's all about flexibility.
I think that will suit our squad perfectly. Players like Buendia, Watkins and Doug are all capable of playing in different positions, and it might benefit players like Bailey, McGinn and Bailey too who will be properly coached. Too often recently the players have looked like they don't know what they should be doing, that won't be the case anymore.
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We will be rinsed in midfield and full back playing 442 against decent opposition. Ok for the odd game, as is 433 as seen v Chelsea and Citeh but 4231 suits our group better.
I really don't know what Gerrard was thinking with sticking to 433. The likes of Coutinho, Ings, Bailey can't/won't press like Salah/Mane et al. So we were allowing opponents basically walk into our midfield most weeks. Then, either Luiz or Kamara were often left isolated in midfield as Ramsey or McGinn had to screen over Cash or Digne getting caught up the field. Konsa and Mings getting dragged out to the full back spots too and Martinez increasingly rooted to his box. It was a mess. At least Young improved things by not getting caught ahead of the ball.
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In the Claret & Blue Podcast interview, Guillem Balague dismissed the question of how Emery sets up in terms of formation saying something like "nobody plays like that anymore". He went on to say that we'll have a different shape depending on whether we have the ball or not, how the opposition set up, what the score is etc. It's all about flexibility.
He did and I think the interviewer felt a wee bit sheepish too.
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He was certainly chastened but Guillem went up in my estimation. His hourly rate is through the roof, he didn't have to lower himself to some indie club podcast.
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4231 with our current squad is so obvious. There is cover for each position (when Bert returns) and it's shown to work.
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He was certainly chastened but Guillem went up in my estimation. His hourly rate is through the roof, he didn't have to lower himself to some indie club podcast.
Indie?! Reach plc is many things, but I wouldn't call it indie.
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Ugh, aren't they the buggers whose cookies you have to accept every time you're seduced by a red-top link?
Didn't realise that the Claret and Blue Pod was more than some H&V type fellas with a couple of mics and a pair of headphones.
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Ugh, aren't they the buggers whose cookies you have to accept every time you're seduced by a red-top link?
Didn't realise that the Claret and Blue Pod was more than some H&V type fellas with a couple of mics and a pair of headphones.
It is that, but they work for Reach/Brum Mail.