Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: dave.woodhall on February 24, 2022, 12:10:54 AM
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Where I reckon we are.
https://heroesandvillains.info/2022/02/24/the-view-from-up-here/
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Where I reckon we are.
https://heroesandvillains.info/2022/02/24/the-view-from-up-here/
"The big trouble is that it’s difficult to persuade top six players to join your club when you haven’t been in the top six for over a decade. "
Good point. Furthermore, we are not able to keep a player like Matty Targett when a replacement is brought in.
Nowt new. Bent comes and and Gabby gets the hump. Ings comes in and Ollie gets the collywobbles.
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I watched the Leeds Liverpool game and what I took away from the game was how Liverpool players all wanted the ball and created spaces for each other. Without the ball they harrassed the opposition all game, I watched and lamented of watching our players playing pass the ball across the backline and midfield not running hard enough to recieve the pass. Somethings not right at Villa, the players look sour and look to be playing for themselves.
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Brilliant Dave, exactly how I feel as well.
We have a squad of very good players who should be up in the top 8, but there doesn't seem to be any cohesion and we only look good in patches. It's totally mystifying to me.
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In the wake of the Newcastle defeat it felt like the old days, I wasn't looking forward to the next game and my fears were proved to be correct. My doubts about the Manager meant that those fears were always lurking and this was behind my lack of enthusiasm over the Coutinho signing. As much as it represented our ability to attract world class players, in the main down to the reputation of the new Manager, that alone is not enough. World class players also need motivating, a working and progressive system in which to work, and a flexibility when things go wrong.
The events of Saturday were alarming, not least the body language from the Manager who appeared to give up once the opposition scored.
This may all be part of the Manager settling into the role, time is important, as is patience something I was accused of having a lack of as I argued with a supporter post match. We can't just keep sacking managers was the point, to which I replied do we just stick with bad ones?
I though the time was right for Smith to leave but was very disappointed how it turned out. I had major reservations about the new appointment, these have grown in the last few weeks but as I have said on many occasions before, I hope I am wrong, I hope I end up with egg on my face and I hope someone reminds me of my cynicism as the Manager waves a trophy all around the place.
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I watched the Leeds Liverpool game and what I took away from the game was how Liverpool players all wanted the ball and created spaces for each other. Without the ball they harrassed the opposition all game, I watched and lamented of watching our players playing pass the ball across the backline and midfield not running hard enough to recieve the pass. Somethings not right at Villa, the players look sour and look to be playing for themselves.
Yes, it was painful watching us knock it about in the middle third to so little effect, and Watford able to pass it around at will around their back four with so little pressure. All the intensity of those early Gerrard games has gone and we look dispirited on and off the pitch.
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The view from last season's 11th was good.
Being lucky enough to attend the final match vs chelski and seeing Villa win 2-1 I felt hopeful and excited for the future.
After a sh-tshow of a close season this feeling turned to one of expectation after Smith left. In the interest of progress purslow said Smith had to go, so whoever he brought in was surely going to get us into the top 10 and at the very least I expected that.
Beware the words of a silver tongued ceo.
With our last defeat vs Watford I have now reverted back to my default feelings where Villa are concerned of resignation and acceptance. It appears we are starting from scratch yet again and I genuinely don't know where our next points are coming from.
It doesn't take long for the "view from up here" to change if you're a Villa fan.
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In the wake of the Newcastle defeat it felt like the old days, I wasn't looking forward to the next game and my fears were proved to be correct. My doubts about the Manager meant that those fears were always lurking and this was behind my lack of enthusiasm over the Coutinho signing. As much as it represented our ability to attract world class players, in the main down to the reputation of the new Manager, that alone is not enough. World class players also need motivating, a working and progressive system in which to work, and a flexibility when things go wrong.
The events of Saturday were alarming, not least the body language from the Manager who appeared to give up once the opposition scored.
This may all be part of the Manager settling into the role, time is important, as is patience something I was accused of having a lack of as I argued with a supporter post match. We can't just keep sacking managers was the point, to which I replied do we just stick with bad ones?
I though the time was right for Smith to leave but was very disappointed how it turned out. I had major reservations about the new appointment, these have grown in the last few weeks but as I have said on many occasions before, I hope I am wrong, I hope I end up with egg on my face and I hope someone reminds me of my cynicism as the Manager waves a trophy all around the place.
I too share these concerns, but am clinging to a belief we're going through a difficult chrysalis stage, and when we come out of it we'll be able to go heights we couldn't previously manage.
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I agree, Lee, but with a nagging doubt that it’s wishful thinking rather than anything I could backup.
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I agree, Lee, but with a nagging doubt that it’s wishful thinking rather than anything I could backup.
As I say Chris, I'm clinging to it, whilst being buffeted by gales of doubt.
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I can't get past the feeling that something deeper is wrong you know, having given it some thought.
Smith's demise came about due to a drastic shift in tactics and catastrophic run of results. The team went from style to shithousing within a few weeks, the team looked lost, the results didn't come and the Manager was fired. Subsequently said Manager has taken another role where he has reverted to style once more, albeit up against it with the quality of the squad.
When the current incumbent took over, out went the long ball, long throw rubbish and in came a narrow but pleasant style of play, topped off with energy and pressing gleaning some fine results. On the evidence of Saturday that energy and press has been all but abandoned, while it would be a stretch to say that we are shithousing again, we are certainly shit and with the exception of that 20 mins against Leeds, recent performances have been flat, uninspired and lacking imagination. Just as they were at the end of Smith's reign.
I laid the blame for Smith's sacking at the door of McPhee or rather the former allowing the latter more influence than was healthy. Although McPhee remains, it really is a stretch to hold him accountable once more, particularly given the gargantuan backroom staff we currently employ with certain members held in such high regard within the game.
This recent regression has been as surprising as it has been depressing and one would hope that it's not the Club itself that is the problem, as Dave alludes to in the original article, but something that can be fixed within. Or doesn't exist at all and I'm being a big bed wetting twat who's overthinking a run of a few poor results. That have occurred twice in the same season with different Managers...
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I can't get past the feeling that something deeper is wrong you know, having given it some thought.
Smith's demise came about due to a drastic shift in tactics and catastrophic run of results. The team went from style to shithousing within a few weeks, the team looked lost, the results didn't come and the Manager was fired. Subsequently said Manager has taken another role where he has reverted to style once more, albeit up against it with the quality of the squad.
When the current incumbent took over, out went the long ball, long throw rubbish and in came a narrow but pleasant style of play, topped off with energy and pressing gleaning some fine results. On the evidence of Saturday that energy and press has been all but abandoned, while it would be a stretch to say that we are shithousing again, we are certainly shit and with the exception of that 20 mins against Leeds, recent performances have been flat, uninspired and lacking imagination. Just as they were at the end of Smith's reign.
I laid the blame for Smith's sacking at the door of McPhee or rather the former allowing the latter more influence than was healthy. Although McPhee remains, it really is a stretch to hold him accountable once more, particularly given the gargantuan backroom staff we currently employ with certain members held in such high regard within the game.
This recent regression has been as surprising as it has been depressing and one would hope that it's not the Club itself that is the problem, as Dave alludes to in the original article, but something that can be fixed within. Or doesn't exist at all and I'm being a big bed wetting twat who's overthinking a run of a few poor results. That have occurred twice in the same season with different Managers...
Or it could be that we had a world class player, who was the heart beat of the club, playing the best football of his career, with a manager who knew how to get the best of him. When said player left, the players that came were decent but not as good as our former captain. They also in hindsight were not bought to fit into the system Smith preferred, hence him getting distracted with different systems, trying to fit these Grealish replacements in, that failed largely.
In addition to losing our former skipper, we also lost our assistant manager, who happened to be a world class defender in his day. As well as the support Smith may of lost here, it seems like our rock solid defence from last year, hasn’t been the same since Terry left. Maybe a coincidence, maybe not.
The combination of these factors I think did for Smith. And now we have a manager who wants to play a different way, that seemingly requires at least some movement of players who can’t play that way, out, and some new players in.
One of the noticeable things for me on Saturday, was the relatively mild by Villa standards, booing from the Holte at the end. It made me realise just how much credit Dean had in the bank. Despite the 10 game run being amongst my favourite times going down to Villa Park in 40 odd years, there was also a dire run in January/February that season and a particularly awful performance in the 0-2 home loss to Albion, almost exactly 3 years ago. The season after as we know was a struggle with some awful games and performances and then this year before the end of his time, we got outplayed by West Ham at home. Still within any of those periods, I don’t really remember many if any occasions when the home crowd turned. Maybe my memories letting me down here.
Either way, its clear to me that Gerrard is on a much shorter timeframe for turning things around than Smith had.
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Great read Dave.
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Great read Dave.
It is indeed.
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Great read Dave.
Thanks Daz.
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I don’t think there’s any doubt that after the back end of last season and the 5 game losing run DS went on that the players were no longer responding to what he was asking from them and that they’d lost confidence in themselves or DS or both which necessitated a change. However, the debate for me has always been that if the club were going to make a change, it had to be an improvement on DS. At this stage of his career, the only tangible improvement that SG could bring was an increased media profile for Villa. So what we’ve been asked by Purslow to believe is that, in time, SG could take the club forward and be an upgrade on DS.
So far, we’ve seen little evidence of either, with SG being just as slow at making changes, a plan A that doesn’t work against certain sides and having no plan B. It’s also clear that SG mistakes ‘setting standards’ with man-management decisions that will lose him some of the players. This is mistake of a manager who wants and expects the club to be Champions League level and not that he has to get us there first to manage this way (with all the authority that would bring him and the threat of having viable alternatives that would mean a player could be out in cold for weeks).
Reading the various related forum threads, I think there is conjecture about whether the manager or the players are the more significant problem. But the issue is, getting the calibre and volume of players SG wants to play his system is not going to happen with where the club are right now and what we can spend under FFP-even with the benefits his reputation as a player could bring. But a number of these problems are not the fault of SG. The route of the problem is Purslow. Personally, I think he’s dropped a major clanger here that puts his own future and all the good work that’s been done up to now at risk. The situation didn't need scrapping and starting again, but with the appointment of SG that's changed things considerably.
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We're going round in circles.
But are we spiralling down, or up?
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Excellent summation Dave. I could draw on 75 years on the Holte to underpin my endurance of us only ever flattering to deceive but it would be boring. Suffice to say the weakness that returns over and over again is that we fail to see things through. Whether through greed, poverty, stupidity, naivety, vanity, lies or whatever, we panic, we fall out, we settle scores instead of holding fast to a concept, a vision or a commitment. We need to see the big picture, hold our nerve and see things through.
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The observation about Nakamba is spot on.McGinn and Luiz are not half as good without him.He allowed them to press further up the pitch and attack.Against Leeds and Watford both were anchored in deep positions and ineffective. Never thought that I'd say that Nakamba is the most missed player in our midfield.
We need to play with a proper DCM who understands the role,even Chambers or the young kid from Albion,Tim ... .
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The observation about Nakamba is spot on.McGinn and Luiz are not half as good without him.He allowed them to press further up the pitch and attack.Against Leeds and Watford both were anchored in deep positions and ineffective. Never thought that I'd say that Nakamba is the most missed player in our midfield.
We need to play with a proper DCM who understands the role,even Chambers or the young kid from Albion,Tim ... .
Nakamba has his uses don't get me wrong. But he is such a limited player. Against Liverpool, granted one of the best teams in the division, he was beyond useless. Press our midfield and Nakamba is a liability.
I can't help thinking Luiz has a move lined up in the summer. He avoided physical contact at all costs in the last two games. But our current slump is a lot more than just a couple of players being out of form. I think the players are confused as to what Gerrard wants from them. Our manager seems incapable, like his predecessor, of addressing issues during a game. Our players need direction and urgently.
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As a long time, mostly suffering supporter, what has disappointed me the most ,is the ditching of the continuity plan where management could we replaced without the necessity of a team rebuild. Great Article Dave
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The observation about Nakamba is spot on.McGinn and Luiz are not half as good without him.He allowed them to press further up the pitch and attack.Against Leeds and Watford both were anchored in deep positions and ineffective. Never thought that I'd say that Nakamba is the most missed player in our midfield.
We need to play with a proper DCM who understands the role,even Chambers or the young kid from Albion,Tim ... .
Nakamba has his uses don't get me wrong. But he is such a limited player. Against Liverpool, granted one of the best teams in the division, he was beyond useless. Press our midfield and Nakamba is a liability.
I can't help thinking Luiz has a move lined up in the summer. He avoided physical contact at all costs in the last two games. But our current slump is a lot more than just a couple of players being out of form. I think the players are confused as to what Gerrard wants from them. Our manager seems incapable, like his predecessor, of addressing issues during a game. Our players need direction and urgently.
I think this probably sums my feeling up best, at the moment. I see a bunch of players who are unsure what is expected of them and / or not buying into what is the team is supposed to do.
It's disconcerting and worrying that we go through this cycle with such frequency.
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great article - sums its up nicely.
I would say we haven't be blessed with a manager that understands tatics for as long as I can rembeber.
In the time we have had Managers with lots of other strengths (and sometime no discenable strengths) but not the ability to identify opportunities against diffrent opponents and adjust the game plan to take advantage of that
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Probably Houllier was the last; but never had the players he needed to implement anything half decent.
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As a long time, mostly suffering supporter, what has disappointed me the most ,is the ditching of the continuity plan where management could we replaced without the necessity of a team rebuild. Great Article Dave
For me also. It burns me that Villa are back to that awful cycle of sacking a manager, ripping up a squad, spending fuckloads and on and on forever. Even going back to people like Faulkner when he talked of making Villa like Ajax in how we wanted to grow the club - this time felt like we might finally actually do it and keep a philosophy. I would genuinely love to hear Purslow's thoughts on this. It's a huge failing in my opinion.
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I don't think the system has been ditched really. We didn't really have much of a system under Smith anyway, other than "get it to Grealish". This season he tried 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, 3-4-3 and 5-3-2. If we accept that the 5 at the back wasn't really him, and he preferred either 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3, then that's how we're still playing. Of course no two managers are identical, but in my opinion the need for the squad overhaul isn't really down to a change in managers and style, it's down to some of our players bot being good enough. Luiz, McGinn and Watkins have mostly been poor this season. I'd be tempted to persevere with Watkins for now, but I've seen more than enough of McGinn and Luiz to be honest. They were underperforming for Smith, and now they're underperforming for Gerrard.
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I don't think the system has been ditched really. We didn't really have much of a system under Smith anyway, other than "get it to Grealish". This season he tried 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, 3-4-3 and 5-3-2. If we accept that the 5 at the back wasn't really him, and he preferred either 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3, then that's how we're still playing. Of course no two managers are identical, but in my opinion the need for the squad overhaul isn't really down to a change in managers and style, it's down to some of our players bot being good enough. Luiz, McGinn and Watkins have mostly been poor this season. I'd be tempted to persevere with Watkins for now, but I've seen more than enough of McGinn and Luiz to be honest. They were underperforming for Smith, and now they're underperforming for Gerrard.
Smith liked 2 wide forwards whereas Gerrard wants them narrow or 2 x 10s. So Traore and Bailey are probably surplus to requirements.
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Well he's played with two 10s, because that's basically all he's got. Traore hasn't been fit at all and probably won't be, and Bailey has been injured/not very good.
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I don't think the system has been ditched really. We didn't really have much of a system under Smith anyway, other than "get it to Grealish". This season he tried 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, 3-4-3 and 5-3-2. If we accept that the 5 at the back wasn't really him, and he preferred either 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3, then that's how we're still playing. Of course no two managers are identical, but in my opinion the need for the squad overhaul isn't really down to a change in managers and style, it's down to some of our players bot being good enough. Luiz, McGinn and Watkins have mostly been poor this season. I'd be tempted to persevere with Watkins for now, but I've seen more than enough of McGinn and Luiz to be honest. They were underperforming for Smith, and now they're underperforming for Gerrard.
I think the key question is, good enough for what? Where do you think is realistic for the club to be at this stage?
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I don't think the system has been ditched really. We didn't really have much of a system under Smith anyway, other than "get it to Grealish". This season he tried 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, 3-4-3 and 5-3-2. If we accept that the 5 at the back wasn't really him, and he preferred either 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3, then that's how we're still playing. Of course no two managers are identical, but in my opinion the need for the squad overhaul isn't really down to a change in managers and style, it's down to some of our players bot being good enough. Luiz, McGinn and Watkins have mostly been poor this season. I'd be tempted to persevere with Watkins for now, but I've seen more than enough of McGinn and Luiz to be honest. They were underperforming for Smith, and now they're underperforming for Gerrard.
I think the key question is, good enough for what? Where do you think is realistic for the club to be at this stage?
Beating shite like Watford and Leeds at home, for a start.
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I don't think the system has been ditched really. We didn't really have much of a system under Smith anyway, other than "get it to Grealish". This season he tried 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, 3-4-3 and 5-3-2. If we accept that the 5 at the back wasn't really him, and he preferred either 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3, then that's how we're still playing. Of course no two managers are identical, but in my opinion the need for the squad overhaul isn't really down to a change in managers and style, it's down to some of our players bot being good enough. Luiz, McGinn and Watkins have mostly been poor this season. I'd be tempted to persevere with Watkins for now, but I've seen more than enough of McGinn and Luiz to be honest. They were underperforming for Smith, and now they're underperforming for Gerrard.
I think the key question is, good enough for what? Where do you think is realistic for the club to be at this stage?
Beating shite like Watford and Leeds at home, for a start.
It's been a disappointing season but I don't subscribe to the view that things needed ripping up and stating up and starting again.
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If we make piss poor decisions like buying Ings, unnecessarily upgrading the left back and not resolving the central midfield problem.
Then things are not going to improve dramatically any time soon.
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If we make piss poor decisions like buying Ings, unnecessarily upgrading the left back and not resolving the central midfield problem.
Then things are not going to improve dramatically any time soon.
This
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Well he's played with two 10s, because that's basically all he's got. Traore hasn't been fit at all and probably won't be, and Bailey has been injured/not very good.
I think it’s pretty well documented the way he wants to set the team up.
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Fantastic article. Great read , great observatory telling it how it is.
Its perplexing why we just jump fron one playing strategy to now another under the new owners hoped have a continuity.
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I don't think the system has been ditched really. We didn't really have much of a system under Smith anyway, other than "get it to Grealish". This season he tried 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, 3-4-3 and 5-3-2. If we accept that the 5 at the back wasn't really him, and he preferred either 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3, then that's how we're still playing. Of course no two managers are identical, but in my opinion the need for the squad overhaul isn't really down to a change in managers and style, it's down to some of our players bot being good enough. Luiz, McGinn and Watkins have mostly been poor this season. I'd be tempted to persevere with Watkins for now, but I've seen more than enough of McGinn and Luiz to be honest. They were underperforming for Smith, and now they're underperforming for Gerrard.
I think the key question is, good enough for what? Where do you think is realistic for the club to be at this stage?
Beating shite like Watford and Leeds at home, for a start.
It's been a disappointing season but I don't subscribe to the view that things needed ripping up and stating up and starting again.
Yeah this is what I think. There are a lot of good players here - It needs fenessing and a few new faces but don’t think we need to start again. Certainly need to avoid through it the baby out with the bath water