Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: dave.woodhall on September 16, 2021, 08:37:06 PM
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Here's one to start a debate.
https://heroesandvillains.info/2021/09/16/have-you-ever-won-the-league/
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Don’t worry 💯. We will never be an outstanding success we’re Villa. Whenever we look like doing something we get kicked down VTID
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Great piece, but I do.
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Enjoyed that.
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I agree with the sentiment, certainly don't want to end up like Man City. Leicester on the other hand..
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Can't agree with it, to be honest. Sounds like when Small Heath fans, after yet another defeat, pat themselves on the back and come out with a load of nonsense about being "real fans" so they're the real winners.
I don't want clubs I still consider our inferiors to continue to be able to look down on us, as they've done for most of this century. Just as Arsenal fans are now in a constant rage, I want to break the tiny hearts of Man U, Liverpool, Chelsea and Man City fans by taking all their trophies and all their glory.
Fuck the fuckers.
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I agree to a degree, but you have to be careful what you wish for. Set the bar lower, and you could end up being happy to be at the top of the championship because it means winning more games.
My experience of Man City fans before their team became good was very different. The ones I knew seemed to have a chip on their shoulder about Man United because they were more successful, and claimed to be the only 'real' club in Manchester etc.
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I want league titles and trophies for Aston Villa and I want the club to be number one - if that means plastic fans jumping on board, so be it. What I don't want is for us to achieve our success in the way Man City have gone about things, though, that would be pretty awful and grow stale after a couple of years. The George Graham/Arsene Wenger kind of success is what I crave. We need a David Dein overseeing a grand plan.
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We've won 1 League and 1 FA Cup in the last 100 years. I'll take my chances with us having a bit more success than that even if it means a few more day trippers at Villa Park.
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just a bit of success would be nice
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The article makes some incorrect assumptions anyway. Manchester City are about average for the number of local fans, with something like 55% coming from the NW. About twice as many as their neighbours, and a higher percentage of local fans than any of the big London teams, and more than Everton, surprisingly. As a comparison, we're about 70%, lower than the likes of Southampton, Norwich and Palace etc, as you'd expect.
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The article makes some incorrect assumptions anyway. Manchester City are about average for number of local fans, with something 55% coming from the NW. ABout twice as many as their neighbours, and a higher percentage of local fans than any of the big London teams, and more than Everton, surprisingly. As a comparison, we're about 70%, lower than the likes of Southampton, Norwich and Palace etc, as you'd expect.
Where do these figures come from?
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The article makes some incorrect assumptions anyway. Manchester City are about average for number of local fans, with something 55% coming from the NW. ABout twice as many as their neighbours, and a higher percentage of local fans than any of the big London teams, and more than Everton, surprisingly. As a comparison, we're about 70%, lower than the likes of Southampton, Norwich and Palace etc, as you'd expect.
Where do these figures come from?
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/02/18/liverpool-man-utd-least-local-teams-prem
A few years out of date, but with Covid etc I don't think they'll have changed too much.
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Ta. Including South West fans as part of our "local" support is a bit of an odd survey choice.
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Its a good subject and having thought more about it. Not losing to Man fkin Utd every time would be a great start. We have had a bit of success against the Sky 6 over the last couple of years but still think we go into those matches with fear.
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I don't think we have, to be honest. We've started pretty much every encounter with them since promotion well, including taking the lead in two of the four matches. The problem has been a combination of heads dropping when things were going against us and being utterly shafted by the officials.
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Yes, I do.
I want the best of success for The Villa that I think we deserve and if a few glory hunters jump on the bandwagon, so be it. Tbh, that's already happened to some extent hasn't it? Two "lifelong" Villa fans I know who were STHs for years stopped coming when we were relegated to the Championship and haven't been since....a few other peripheral Villa fans have asked me to get them tickets for our recent Wembley appearances etc. My ususal response is FTF!
Our hardcore who I mix with every home and away game will still be there.
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Ta. Including South West fans as part of our "local" support is a bit of an odd survey choice.
Yep, we're 'yokel' not 'local' :)
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I don't think we have, to be honest. We've started pretty much every encounter with them since promotion well, including taking the lead in two of the four matches. The problem has been a combination of heads dropping when things were going against us and being utterly shafted by the officials.
It might just be me. You are right about the officials, some of the reffing it is just blatantly biased/bent.
Although I don't think the ref decided the game Saturday but my god how is that allowed to pass without any scrutiny.
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For me I would substitute being successful with being competitive. It's a dismal experience turning up at Villa Park and the best you can hope for is a draw but I think not bothering to go to a cup final because you've been to the last three or four and you've already qualified for the Champions League so it doesn't really matter anyway is as miserable in its own way, like celebrating another election victory for Vladimir Putin.
You are spot on about the entitlement of the fans of those four clubs, Arsenal the worst perhaps as they have slid into mediocrity amid cries of how they deserve better. You don't. You've become accustomed to better. You deserve nothing. And imagine 30 years ago being told one day you'd watch the Villa play in safety and comfort in the Shed and you'd probably be as surprised that Stamford Bridge was hosting a semi final as Villa reaching that stage.
EDIT To clarify, when I say "competitive" I would expect trophies to be part of that, not consistently 6th under Martin O'Neill kind of competitive because that's boring too.
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Our hardcore who I mix with every home and away game will still be there.
It’s interesting - a few “proper” Man City fans who I know spent their lives in the shadow of Man United, absolutely hating them and their support. Now they’ve got what they wished for and a few of them wish they could go back to the days when they felt much closer to the club. I’m absolutely certain that a sizeable minority of Chelsea old boys feel the same.
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I can believe it of City fans. Less so Chelsea
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I can believe it of City fans. Less so Chelsea
I have never met a Chelsea fan who gives a toss about what they have become or how they got there.
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I know a few of a similar vintage to me who do.
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I can believe it of City fans. Less so Chelsea
I have never met a Chelsea fan who gives a toss about what they have become or how they got there.
I e met a couple of a similar vintage to me who really aren’t happy with things. They might be morI can believe it of City fans. Less so Chelsea
I have never met a Chelsea fan who gives a toss about what they have become or how they got there.
I know a few of a similar vintage to me who do.
I read a some years ago that a few switched allegiance to QPR because of how Chelsea had gone.
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Manchester United, Arsenal, Chelsea and Manchester City. Four more entitled and arrogant sets of supporters you could never meet, and four more soulless grounds you would be hard pushed to visit.
I might agree with you to some extent regarding the Arsenal and Manchester City stadiums. However, I don't see anything wrong with Old Trafford and Stamford Bridge.
Also, whilst recognising that supporting a football team has not been a life-long thing for me, I still find the belief of one team's supporters that they're better than another team's supporters all a bit bizarre.
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You can't do that!
Edit: replying to Joe C re Chelsea fans switching to QPR. Although if any fans could do it, Chelsea fans could (and seemingly did!)
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You can't do that!
Edit: replying to Joe C re Chelsea fans switching to QPR. Although if any fans could do it, Chelsea fans could (and seemingly did!)
How many London club's fans switched to Chelsea though? The Tim Lovejoys of this world and other bit part celebs alike. A glory hunter is always a glory hunter and they would have switched to Liverpool or ManU long before.
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You can't do that!
Edit: replying to Joe C re Chelsea fans switching to QPR. Although if any fans could do it, Chelsea fans could (and seemingly did!)
How many London club's fans switched to Chelsea though? The Tim Lovejoys of this world and other bit part celebs alike. A glory hunter is always a glory hunter and they would have switched to Liverpool or ManU long before.
The Lovejoy example renders any counter-argument redundant. What a hopeless, soulless wanker he is.
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You can't do that!
Edit: replying to Joe C re Chelsea fans switching to QPR. Although if any fans could do it, Chelsea fans could (and seemingly did!)
How many London club's fans switched to Chelsea though? The Tim Lovejoys of this world and other bit part celebs alike. A glory hunter is always a glory hunter and they would have switched to Liverpool or ManU long before.
The Lovejoy example renders any counter-argument redundant. What a hopeless, soulless wanker he is.
The same can be applied to most Chelsea fans.
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Indeed.
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We may be being slightly judgemental about other supporters here - I logged onto a Brentford forum after we played them and was genuinely surprised at how many of them wrote of their dislike for our fans for very similar reasons as are referred to here so we're not immune - and I'm talking about BRENTFORD here! And I don't believe for a moment they're alone on this one. There was a certain amount of sneering at our belief that we are still a big club in spite of winning not-a-lot for years. We all want that next trophy which is why we still believe in it just being a matter of time but when 2-3 trophies a season becomes an expectation rather than a pipe-dream - that's when the whole outlook changes and it becomes almost a chore rather than a privilege. The generation of supporters blessed by the events of 81/82/83 look back with such fondness because of the privilege of being there when it happened - if it happened every season it would eventually lose its magic.
To appreciate the highs you have to experience the lows. We've had plenty of the latter - it would be nice to have some of the former - and fuck what Brentford think.
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You can't do that!
Edit: replying to Joe C re Chelsea fans switching to QPR. Although if any fans could do it, Chelsea fans could (and seemingly did!)
I think there was also an element that QPR games were less heavily policed than Chelsea allowing a section of their fanbase to indulge in non football related activities. I am sure I first heard that suggestion after this incident:
https://www.wsc.co.uk/the-archive/99-Crowd-control-&-policing/1888-calling-a-holte
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Ta. Including South West fans as part of our "local" support is a bit of an odd survey choice.
Are fans from southwest France included?
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Interesting debate, but for those in agreement of the article, ask yourselves, for example if we were going for 3 league titles in a row and were now starting to attract the plastic fans to VP, on the final day the title was between us and one of the Sky 6, would you really want us to fail.
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Ta. Including South West fans as part of our "local" support is a bit of an odd survey choice.
Are fans from southwest France included?
Mais oui, bien sûr !
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I tend to agree with Dave W, that roughly 90s level success is the sweet spot for me. Regular trips to Wembley, without them being so regular that it’s meaningless. A realistic shot at the league every so often. I think so much of ‘enjoyment’ is actually anticipation, you want to maximise that. It’s always the build up to Christmas that’s the exciting bit as a kid: the presents are nice but in reality how many were still being played with by the end of the Christmas holidays?
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I tend to agree with Dave W, that roughly 90s level success is the sweet spot for me. Regular trips to Wembley, without them being so regular that it’s meaningless. A realistic shot at the league every so often. I think so much of ‘enjoyment’ is actually anticipation, you want to maximise that. It’s always the build up to Christmas that’s the exciting bit as a kid: the presents are nice but in reality how many were still being played with by the end of the Christmas holidays?
That's where I am too.
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Sage words indeed, dear algy.
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The oxygen of football supporters is hope. That has all but vanished at Stockport City to be replaced by expectation and therefore the jeopardy, risk and unknown quantity has gone so there is no thrill, no excitement. No pain or misery banished by against the odds victory, over coming better teams and dodgy refs, no superstar, just superstars everywhere.
That's why people lose interest. It's boring.
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We are very similar to Man City in that our fan base is mainly locally based around the Midlands as there’s is around around the Manchester area
We are not nationally or internationally supported clubs in other words we aren’t global
For what it’s worth I don’t ever want to be
I’ve never lived in Birmingham myself but after nearly 60 years never been more than an hour away from Villa Park and lived all over the Midlands and even I feel A bit of a tourist at times
I’ve only ever been called a glory hunter once and that was by a Rushden and diamonds fan
We have only just started selling out Villa Park on a regular basis so what I’m saying is I don’t think we would be dissimilar from Man City In attendances if we swaped places
I went to the Etihad in the season we were relegated I’ve mentioned this before but I actually felt sorry for them which sounds ridiculous but the soul of the club has been ripped out I think moving to a new stadium does not help
I would never want us to do that I think the identity of Aston Villa is wrapped up in a park
Global footballing domination is not something I’m bothered about but winning something anything carabao cup FA Cup is something I want to win and share with my children as they have never seen us win anything
25 years is just too long
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I agree with john e and Nev. There's a word for what happens when hope is replaced by expectation and then the team fail to fulfil those expectations. That word is Arsenal. God forbid that we ever become like their entitled, bleating knobheads.
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Enjoyed that Dave, thank you. I'm in the same place, and I applaud your use of the term "supporter" - I have never been, and never will be, a "fan."
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Great read.
Posted link on Facebook and received this comment from a blues mate
“Villa fans: Nigel Kennedy, Prince William, David Cameron, Tom Hanks etc...This article is hypocrisy. At least Im working class and from Birmingham.”
😂
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Great read.
Posted link on Facebook and received this comment from a blues mate
“Villa fans: Nigel Kennedy, Prince William, David Cameron, Tom Hanks etc...This article is hypocrisy. At least Im working class and from Birmingham.”
😂
No mention of Fred West then
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We may be being slightly judgemental about other supporters here - I logged onto a Brentford forum after we played them and was genuinely surprised at how many of them wrote of their dislike for our fans for very similar reasons as are referred to here so we're not immune - and I'm talking about BRENTFORD here!
I couldn’t give a fuck what Brentford think of us. Until the last 3-4 years they were nothing, West London’s 4th biggest club, haven’t been in the top flight since the 40s. I had a season ticket from 89-2010 (21 seasons), followed the team all around the country in the 90s and I think we finished outside the top half 5 times. We won 2 league cups, got to an FA cup final as well as other semi finals and played in Europe in many seasons. 7 years before I had a season ticket we were European champions and the year before league winners. All this with pretty much fuck all budget apart from when we sold big and when Lerner first arrived. We are a big club and if want to feel disappointed at the decade before last season and the fact that we drew at home to them the other week I will do.
The only clubs that are bigger than us if you look at it over the whole time are Liverpool, Man Utd and Arsenal. Chelsea and Man City are fuck all, plastic clubs built in recent times by finance alone.
Do I want us to be like them over the next decade? It would be nice to genuinely think it’s an option but I don’t think it is.
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Ta. Including South West fans as part of our "local" support is a bit of an odd survey choice.
Gloucester through Bristol on to Penzance has massive Villa support. Lots of fans moved there.
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Great read.
Posted link on Facebook and received this comment from a blues mate
“Villa fans: Nigel Kennedy, Prince William, David Cameron, Tom Hanks etc...This article is hypocrisy. At least Im working class and from Birmingham.”
😂
They'd still have outside toilets if they thought it made them more working-class Brummie.
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They never acknowledge the many Brummie celebrity fans we have.
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I read an article a while back which said that despite all of the plastic Liverpool and Manure fans all over the country it was actually Southampton out of all of the Premier League clubs who had the most season ticket holders who didn't have have a local postal address.
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One of my best friends is from Winchester and is a Saints fan. I think there's a fair amount of Hampshire under-served by professional football clubs, so Southampton probably have quite a decent-sized catchment area.
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One of my best friends is from Winchester and is a Saints fan. I think there's a fair amount of Hampshire under-served by professional football clubs, so Southampton probably have quite a decent-sized catchment area.
Very true, everyone forgets the Solent and surrounds have a massive population of over 1.5 million people.
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Great read.
Posted link on Facebook and received this comment from a blues mate
“Villa fans: Nigel Kennedy, Prince William, David Cameron, Tom Hanks etc...This article is hypocrisy. At least Im working class and from Birmingham.”
😂
They'd still have outside toilets if they thought it made them more working-class Brummie.
Dave, I just told him that he missed the whole point of the article. If he read it without his ‘I’m working class and from Birmingham’ mentality he would agree with what’s being said.
They just can’t help themselves