Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Legion on February 02, 2021, 10:08:13 PM
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Mat Kendrick - Football editor, Birmingham Live
Aston Villa face West Ham United this week with both clubs gradually refining their expectations for the season.
The Hammers are fifth in the Premier League table with 35 points from 21 games, while Villa, who have played two matches fewer, are ninth with 32 points.
David Moyes lines up against Villa in the away dugout at Villa Park on Wednesday evening.
Had the footballing fates decided differently, the West Ham boss could have been wearing the claret and blue of his Brummie hosts.
There will be no regrets from Moyes or Villa.
Moyes was under serious consideration for the Villa job several times during a decade when the nameplate on the manager's door at Bodymoor Heath should have been scribbled on a Post-it note rather than engraved in brass.
The Glaswegian's name was originally in the frame back in the summer of 2010 when Villa were seeking a successor for Martin O'Neill after his bombshell relegation and again the following year as the club sought to replace O'Neill's replacement Gerard Houllier.
On those occasions, Randy Lerner and Paul Faulkner were put off from pursuing Moyes and turned their attentions elsewhere, while the Scottish boss would have been unlikely to leave a settled job at Everton for Premier League peers in a perpetual state of upheaval.
The summer of 2016 was when Villa made their strongest pitch for Moyes.
Available after his ill-fated spell at Manchester United and his aborted stint in Spain with Real Sociedad, Moyes was a serious contender for the Villa gig four and a half years ago.
Reeling from relegation out of the Premier League, and under new ownership following the Tony Xia takeover, Villa drew up a very short shortlist.
Villa firmed up their interest to the extent that the club held telephone conversations with Moyes and his agent brother Kenny to sound him out.
The then chief executive Keith Wyness was a keen admirer of Moyes having worked closely with him during their fruitful time together at Everton.
Moyes was receptive enough to the idea to take the call, but reservations about the new ownership and a desire to maintain his Premier League reputation proved to be barriers to him wanting the job.
"He felt he was a Premier League manager if he took a step back and things didn't work out for whatever reason he would be pigeonholed at that level so he wanted to stay available for a Premier League job," a source told BirminghamLive.
"He was unsure about how things would work out at Aston Villa with the new regime and, let's face it, he was proven right."
They didn't know it at the time but perhaps it was a sliding doors moment for Villa and Moyes.
Had Moyes made more encouraging noises during that phonecall, then it seems he would have been given the nod over eventual choice Roberto Di Matteo, even though the Italian was a firm favourite of Xia.
Nigel Pearson was the preferred choice of interim chairman Steve Hollis before the sale of Villa and the former Leicester City boss also met Xia and his inner circle over lunch, but the Chinese businessman favoured Di Matteo after a productive meeting in a hotel.
Xia was impressed by the fact Di Matteo had a degree, and the sheen of his Chamnpions League triumph with Chelsea was also a massive plus for Villa's new owner, who was seduced by the star quality of that success.
Champions League to Championship was not the smoothest of transitions, though. Di Matteo lasted just 11 league games, with just 10 points on the board and the club marooned 19th in the table.
Here's how Birmingham Live reported his departure back then:
"It was at a drizzly Deepdale where Roberto Di Matteo's body language gave him away.
"Behind the bullish bluster was the awareness that his short reign as Aston Villa manager was up.
"Villa had been beaten 2-0 by Preston North End and any misconceptions that this Championship promotion malarkey would be a doddle were quickly banished.
"That loss in Lancashire completed a miserable, and very brief, spell in charge for the former Chelsea Champions League winning gaffer.
"It was to last just 124 days, encompassing just one victory in 11 Championship matches, along with an embarrassing League Cup exit.
"At Deepdale as the assembled press sought shelter from the rain near the tunnel, Di Matteo wore a fixed smile throughout his post match duties.
"He said all the right things about 'taking full responsibility', 'faith in the team' and 'they'll be up there'.
"But his demeanour told a different story, the story of a man who, truth be told, could do without the hassle."
As it was it didn't exactly work out brilliantly for Moyes back then either. He held out for a Premier League job, taking over at Sunderland in July 2016, only to 'do a Villa' and slide out of the Premier League as the top flight whipping boys that season.
Again he wasn't keen on being a Championship manager, resigning the day after the relegation season concluded in May 2017.
By November 2017, he was back in the Premier League, taking over West Ham on a short, sharp, shock deal, but leaving the following spring - despite keeping the Hammers up - when his six month contract expired.
Fast forward to last season when both Moyes and Aston Villa were back in the top flight.
Villa took the circuitous route to get there. Despite a very near miss, Di Matteos's successor Steve Bruce - another whose Villa tenure was ended by Moyes' old club Preston - couldn't get the Lions out of the Championship, but Dean Smith managed it at the first attempt and kept the club there, courtesy of a last day draw at the London Stadium.
Moyes was back in charge at West Ham by that time, having succeeded Manuel Pellegrini in December 2019.
When it comes to Aston Villa managers, David Moyes is the one that got away.
But with both sets of 'claret and blues' daring to dream of Europe ahead of the midweek encounter neither party will be particularly rueful about how it all worked out.
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I am so unsure when it comes to Moyes. His football is not the best and he hasn't got the risk element to his game management so I am happy with what we have got and not shedding a tear.
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Yes, very happy to have missed the Moyes boat.
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Exactly like MON but not as much of a c***.
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He'd have done a good job for us around the 2010-11 period I think. Was a top manager in those days.
In fairness thought he was finished a few years ago but done a really good job at West Ham.
His style though has its limits where the DS style can continue to grow with good signings so I'd stick with what he got.
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A very limited Manager, he drove Evertonians nuts with his constant safety first negativity. He tried the same at TTOD and see how that worked out.
This West Ham team is doing what Everton did and will come up short.
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I'm not sure sure Everton have done any better without him, despite having new investment. One good year with Martinez?
It's a strange article from Kendrick though. Usually "one that got away" is something unbelievable or amazing slipping from your grasp. Zidane not joining Blackburn, Ibrahimovich not joining Arsenal, Doug not giving Clough the managers job. Etc.
A guy broadly comparable to MON and Steve Bruce not being our manager certainly doesn't give me sleepless nights.
I don't mean to dismiss the guys achievements but it's not like missing out on Mourinho is it?
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He's certainly bounced back well, a couple of years ago most people considered him finished and I recall horror on here at the prospect of us signing him.
But it's hard to argue against the fact that he's done extremely well. I think the dinosaur comparisons are a bit lazy really and based more on his age than anything. Yes he likes to be organised, but I think hes a lot more tactically astute than people give him credit for. I also think the comarison with MON is a bit unfair, he's (or at least the clubs he works for) are far more imaginitive in the transfer market than MON ever was and I thing there's more substance to his management than MONs tub-thumping get the best out of limited players style.
With all of that said I ddn't want him at the Villa as I wanted a younger more progressive manager and we certainly got that with Smith. Would I swap? Not a chance.
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I don't think he's a dinosaur. But I do think a comparison with MON is fair.
I'm not saying he's better or worse, but there's not that much between them. When it comes to working with limited resources MON achieved similar levels of success at Leicester than Moyes did at Everton.
And both were crap at Sunderland!
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A very limited Manager, he drove Evertonians nuts with his constant safety first negativity. He tried the same at TTOD and see how that worked out.
This West Ham team is doing what Everton did and will come up short.
Results at Everton were very good though and his stint at West Ham has turned them around (twice). Keeping West Ham in the division is the sum total of their boards ambition and he is comfortably achieving that on a limited budget.
Once the fans get back in, he will come under a bit of pressure alright "We're West Ham and we play on the floor".
Looking forward to this game.
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He's the type of manager you bring in when your club's a mess and you need to stabilise it.
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A very limited Manager, he drove Evertonians nuts with his constant safety first negativity. He tried the same at TTOD and see how that worked out.
This West Ham team is doing what Everton did and will come up short.
Results at Everton were very good though and his stint at West Ham has turned them around (twice). Keeping West Ham in the division is the sum total of their boards ambition and he is comfortably achieving that on a limited budget.
Once the fans get back in, he will come under a bit of pressure alright "We're West Ham and we play on the floor".
Looking forward to this game.
Yes he kept them there or there abouts but no Cigar, he did not push on and pretended he did not spend money which was rubbish. The football was dull.
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"villa were seeking a successor for Martin O'Neill after his bombshell relegation"
does this stuff ever get proof read ?
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I don't think he's a dinosaur. But I do think a comparison with MON is fair.
I'm not saying he's better or worse, but there's not that much between them. When it comes to working with limited resources MON achieved similar levels of success at Leicester than Moyes did at Everton.
And both were crap at Sunderland!
Compare what MON had to spend at Villa Park and Moyes at Goodison yet MON was always was second best. Never rated either and was delighted when Moyes turned us down it the Championship. As for MON, even the Celtic fans were tired of his football and glad he left when he did (though not under the personal circumstances).
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"villa were seeking a successor for Martin O'Neill after his bombshell relegation"
does this stuff ever get proof read ?
Auto-correct!! Resignation.
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I don't think he's a dinosaur. But I do think a comparison with MON is fair.
I'm not saying he's better or worse, but there's not that much between them. When it comes to working with limited resources MON achieved similar levels of success at Leicester than Moyes did at Everton.
And both were crap at Sunderland!
Compare what MON had to spend at Villa Park and Moyes at Goodison yet MON was always was second best. Never rated either and was delighted when Moyes turned us down it the Championship. As for MON, even the Celtic fans were tired of his football and glad he left when he did (though not under the personal circumstances).
He did a better job at Everton than MON did here. My point was that I don't think that there is that much between the two of them. So I think originally saying that the two of them are "broadly comparable" is neither risible nor unfair.
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A good few years ago now I knew an Everton season ticket holder when Moyes was in charge and one of his criticisms was his record against the teams in the top 6. I like Moyes and glad he has turned it around for himself, comes across as a decent bloke no frills and thought it was harsh when those prats at West Ham didn't keep him on after he did well to keep them up
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I have only ever met three Villa managers in what, seventy five years. Four if you include Harrison but I don't. I met David Moyes on the beach in Nice when he had brought his Preston team over for a winter break. Good bloke, I was impressed by him. He was clearly a rising talent in the managerial ranks.
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A very limited Manager, he drove Evertonians nuts with his constant safety first negativity. He tried the same at TTOD and see how that worked out.
This West Ham team is doing what Everton did and will come up short.
TTOD? I don't care if it's in jest or not but can we not ever use that term or abbreviation on here? It's repulsive.
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What's wrong with The Theatre of Dickheads?
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A very limited Manager, he drove Evertonians nuts with his constant safety first negativity. He tried the same at TTOD and see how that worked out.
This West Ham team is doing what Everton did and will come up short.
TTOD? I don't care if it's in jest or not but can we not ever use that term or abbreviation on here? It's repulsive.
Anybody calling them 'United' is a far bigger crime and one that really boils my piss.
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A very limited Manager, he drove Evertonians nuts with his constant safety first negativity. He tried the same at TTOD and see how that worked out.
This West Ham team is doing what Everton did and will come up short.
TTOD? I don't care if it's in jest or not but can we not ever use that term or abbreviation on here? It's repulsive.
It winds Manure fans up more than anything.
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A very limited Manager, he drove Evertonians nuts with his constant safety first negativity. He tried the same at TTOD and see how that worked out.
This West Ham team is doing what Everton did and will come up short.
Results at Everton were very good though and his stint at West Ham has turned them around (twice). Keeping West Ham in the division is the sum total of their boards ambition and he is comfortably achieving that on a limited budget.
Once the fans get back in, he will come under a bit of pressure alright "We're West Ham and we play on the floor".
Looking forward to this game.
Yes he kept them there or there abouts but no Cigar, he did not push on and pretended he did not spend money which was rubbish. The football was dull.
The football was dull at times but it was still football that got results with likes of Fellaini and Cahill benefitting from direct play. But he still had some talented footballers in those teams, likes of Pienaar, Baines, Coleman, Lescott, Arteta, Jagielka. Could mix it physically and play some decent stuff. Likes of Stones and Stones were sold on for huge money too.
He surely was working off a lower budget than MON at the same time and finishing higher? They did make the top 4 one year but couldnt get through the qualifiers I think. He also left the club in a good spot unlike MON did with us.
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A very limited Manager, he drove Evertonians nuts with his constant safety first negativity. He tried the same at TTOD and see how that worked out.
This West Ham team is doing what Everton did and will come up short.
Results at Everton were very good though and his stint at West Ham has turned them around (twice). Keeping West Ham in the division is the sum total of their boards ambition and he is comfortably achieving that on a limited budget.
Once the fans get back in, he will come under a bit of pressure alright "We're West Ham and we play on the floor".
Looking forward to this game.
Yes he kept them there or there abouts but no Cigar, he did not push on and pretended he did not spend money which was rubbish. The football was dull.
The football was dull at times but it was still football that got results with likes of Fellaini and Cahill benefitting from direct play. But he still had some talented footballers in those teams, likes of Pienaar, Baines, Coleman, Lescott, Arteta, Jagielka. Could mix it physically and play some decent stuff. Likes of Stones and Stones were sold on for huge money too.
He surely was working off a lower budget than MON at the same time and finishing higher? They did make the top 4 one year but couldnt get through the qualifiers I think. He also left the club in a good spot unlike MON did with us.
They only got to bank that money once though.
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A very limited Manager, he drove Evertonians nuts with his constant safety first negativity. He tried the same at TTOD and see how that worked out.
This West Ham team is doing what Everton did and will come up short.
Results at Everton were very good though and his stint at West Ham has turned them around (twice). Keeping West Ham in the division is the sum total of their boards ambition and he is comfortably achieving that on a limited budget.
Once the fans get back in, he will come under a bit of pressure alright "We're West Ham and we play on the floor".
Looking forward to this game.
Yes he kept them there or there abouts but no Cigar, he did not push on and pretended he did not spend money which was rubbish. The football was dull.
The football was dull at times but it was still football that got results with likes of Fellaini and Cahill benefitting from direct play. But he still had some talented footballers in those teams, likes of Pienaar, Baines, Coleman, Lescott, Arteta, Jagielka. Could mix it physically and play some decent stuff. Likes of Stones and Stones were sold on for huge money too.
He surely was working off a lower budget than MON at the same time and finishing higher? They did make the top 4 one year but couldnt get through the qualifiers I think. He also left the club in a good spot unlike MON did with us.
Pretty much as it was. He was my first choice when the twat flounced off, but that was thinking he'd get more bang for our bucks, and not knowing the tap was about to be pretty much turned off.
There would have been a case for him to take it had he been offered the kind of money O'Neill had to spend.
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I cooked and served Moyes dinner one night n Preston ('twas a very quiet tuesday nght) and he had come back to watch them play shortly after he had gone to manage Everton. He was a thoroughly nice and unassuming chap. I'd not swap hm for are Dean but I wish him no ill...except for a 5-1 smashing tonight obviously!
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Exactly like MON but not as much of a c***.
Not so sure. He threatened to slap a female reporter. Also there’s a story that when Everton bought Seamus Coleman from an Irish League club as part of the deal Everton agreed to play a friendly against them to raise them some money. Full crowd expectant of seeing premier league stars and he sent the under 23’s. Didn’t go down well at all.
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Certainly out witted Dean tonight.
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Certainly out witted Dean tonight.
This with bells on
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He would have been a better option than any between Gregory sacking and Dean Smith being appointed. In hindsight.
Primarily because of the utter dross and lack of succession planning.
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I never wanted Moyes as Villa boss. Everton were decent under him but in a workmanlike way and were never going to trouble top spot, although to be fair he didn't have the funds O'Neill had. He's done a much better job at West Ham than I expected but I still think he has a glass ceiling of about 5th or 6th place. That may still prove better than Smith in the end but Smith is in the early part of his rise so it's hard to tell.
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A very limited Manager, he drove Evertonians nuts with his constant safety first negativity. He tried the same at TTOD and see how that worked out.
This West Ham team is doing what Everton did and will come up short.
Results at Everton were very good though and his stint at West Ham has turned them around (twice). Keeping West Ham in the division is the sum total of their boards ambition and he is comfortably achieving that on a limited budget.
Once the fans get back in, he will come under a bit of pressure alright "We're West Ham and we play on the floor".
Looking forward to this game.
Yes he kept them there or there abouts but no Cigar, he did not push on and pretended he did not spend money which was rubbish. The football was dull.
The football was dull at times but it was still football that got results with likes of Fellaini and Cahill benefitting from direct play. But he still had some talented footballers in those teams, likes of Pienaar, Baines, Coleman, Lescott, Arteta, Jagielka. Could mix it physically and play some decent stuff. Likes of Stones and Stones were sold on for huge money too.
He surely was working off a lower budget than MON at the same time and finishing higher? They did make the top 4 one year but couldnt get through the qualifiers I think. He also left the club in a good spot unlike MON did with us.
We had some great battles with them in that period. The Young game everyone remembers but the 3-3 at VP later that season was a brilliant game aswell. We were both best of the rest in that period.
I do think this West Ham side is closest to what he had at Everton since he left them. Solid keeper and defence, functional midfield and tricky players in final third. Soucek with his heading ability and late runs into the box reminds me of Tim Cahill aswell.
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Certainly out witted Dean tonight.
This with bells on
Starting this thread the day before we played them almost guaranteed it would happen. :(
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Casual mentions of meeting the subject of the thread on a French beach and separately of cooking and serving him dinner. H&V - where it's been at since 1988.
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A very limited Manager, he drove Evertonians nuts with his constant safety first negativity. He tried the same at TTOD and see how that worked out.
This West Ham team is doing what Everton did and will come up short.
Results at Everton were very good though and his stint at West Ham has turned them around (twice). Keeping West Ham in the division is the sum total of their boards ambition and he is comfortably achieving that on a limited budget.
Once the fans get back in, he will come under a bit of pressure alright "We're West Ham and we play on the floor".
Looking forward to this game.
Yes he kept them there or there abouts but no Cigar, he did not push on and pretended he did not spend money which was rubbish. The football was dull.
The football was dull at times but it was still football that got results with likes of Fellaini and Cahill benefitting from direct play. But he still had some talented footballers in those teams, likes of Pienaar, Baines, Coleman, Lescott, Arteta, Jagielka. Could mix it physically and play some decent stuff. Likes of Stones and Stones were sold on for huge money too.
He surely was working off a lower budget than MON at the same time and finishing higher? They did make the top 4 one year but couldnt get through the qualifiers I think. He also left the club in a good spot unlike MON did with us.
We had some great battles with them in that period. The Young game everyone remembers but the 3-3 at VP later that season was a brilliant game aswell. We were both best of the rest in that period.
I do think this West Ham side is closest to what he had at Everton since he left them. Solid keeper and defence, functional midfield and tricky players in final third. Soucek with his heading ability and late runs into the box reminds me of Tim Cahill aswell.
Unfortunately my lasting memory of those games is that 3-1 defeat in the FA cup 2009 when we didn't turn up. Also in February!
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didn't appear to be limited last night - showed us up a treat - he got a proper performance out of his team and tactically shut our midfield down. Fair play to him.
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Was a brilliant first goal they got last night. One touch football, running off the ball and a brilliant finish.
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A very limited Manager, he drove Evertonians nuts with his constant safety first negativity. He tried the same at TTOD and see how that worked out.
This West Ham team is doing what Everton did and will come up short.
TTOD? I don't care if it's in jest or not but can we not ever use that term or abbreviation on here? It's repulsive.
Anybody calling them 'United' is a far bigger crime and one that really boils my piss.
Watching Man U v Sheff U the other night the pitch-side interviewer of the Sheff U player said 'So how does it feel beating United?' and the player answered. Rather than saying 'But we won?'
Really fucked me off.
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And for the record, there are occasions over the years where I'd have bitten your hand off to have Moyes.
O'Leary
McLeish
Lambert
Garde
di Matteo
Bruce
Would we have turned him down over many of them? There are plenty others I'd have had in front of what we got and Moyes wouldn't have been at the head of the queue but it's all about timing and he'd have been better than what we got.
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Never one for me, although he probably better than anyone on that list.
from the comments i saw every time we seemed keen, i had the impression he saw himself above us. waiting for the man u job
My best mate is a Everton fan and no way (irrationally) i wanted his sloppy seconds.
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Never one for me, although he probably better than anyone on that list.
from the comments i saw every time we seemed keen, i had the impression he saw himself above us. waiting for the man u job. My best mate is a Everton fan and no way (irrationally) i wanted his sloppy seconds.
To be fair, I suspect he was encouraged by his bessie mate and would-be Kingmaker, Sralex.
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Never one for me, although he probably better than anyone on that list.
from the comments i saw every time we seemed keen, i had the impression he saw himself above us. waiting for the man u job. My best mate is a Everton fan and no way (irrationally) i wanted his sloppy seconds.
To be fair, I suspect he was encouraged by his bessie mate and would-be Kingmaker, Sralex.
Apart from them (typically) panning us at home. I quite enjoyed his spell there.
"The Chosen one" lol