Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Match Threads & Player Ratings => Topic started by: Dave on November 30, 2020, 10:13:57 PM
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Balls.
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The 2 goals we conceeded were pathetic.
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Unbelievable. Two very winnable games running where we’ve played decent football, shot ourselves in the foot with a combination of shoddy defending and abysmal finishing, and then got fucked over by VAR in both.
Trezeguet misses yet again, Watkins and Konsa miss free headers and then we can’t even convert a penalty. I don’t know if I should be concerned that we can play well against mediocre teams and still contrive to lose.
I was in favour of VAR but the refs operating it are fucking idiots of the highest order, and because of them it’s time to fuck it off – which is what I think they have wanted all along.
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We played really poorly at times and really well. We deserved to take something from that game. Hourihane needs to not complain about being dropped because he was awful. Trezeguet is the one of the most wasteful players I can remember playing for us. 4 defeats in 5 now. Not good at all.
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VAR has killed football.
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The Barkley replacement needs to be Ramsey. Apart from Free Kicks Hourihane is invisible.
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It’s not football anymore but that’s no excuse for not beating Gollum’s shitehawks, West Ham should be relegation fodder on that showing.
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Didn't deserve to lose but we didn't take the chances we had at key moments. West Ham only had two shots on goal and ended up in the net.
If we can dominate games like that for the rest of the season we will be ok.
Just hope we batter the Toon this week.
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Is there a single fan, player or manager, just one, who thinks fucking VAR has given anything to the game. It’s destroying it.
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Two games running. Shouldn’t have lost the game in the first place and then fucked over by this game ruining pile of shit called VAR.
I didn’t even celebrate, an injury time equaliser. That’s what VAR does. Rips all the soul and spontaneous reaction out of the game.
Then we can all enjoy the slide rule lines and dotted ones on the armpits. It’s what modern football is all about.
I’m genuinely falling out of love with the game.
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Dean has to make a decision with the defence and shake things up because we're shipping goals like last season. i'd like to see someone dropped if he's got the bottle to do it. Defence cost us the game not VAR, or watkins miss. midfield poor. Grealish doing his party tricks and trying to beat half their team again. last season deja vu indeed. I wouldn't mind so much but west ham were crap, really poor imo. Them being 5th is worthy of an episode of Arthur C Clarke's mysterious world (one for the kids etc..). Utter arse overall.
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Carragher just pointing out Watkins was fouled before the disallowed goal - he should have gone down if Ogbonna had both arms around his neck
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West Ham should be relegation fodder on that showing.
They were shit, absolutely awful. But we are always likely to give cheap goals away and they converted their only 2 chances.
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How we lost this I will never know...and VAR is ruining football. Carragher has it absolutely right on VAR.
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We’re developing a nasty habit of playing well, but being incredibly sloppy at the back and incredibly wasteful up front. It’s not good enough to start two halves of football like we did tonight. No good looking good and losing - we need to be much smarter and more resilient.
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VAR has killed football.
2 VAR decision 2 defeats in 1 week.
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Fuckin livid as livid been for a long time.
Two shit goal conceded - yes.
But easily the better team. By a distance
And Watkins non goal was a foul - should have been a pen.
Lost 4 points to wank VAR
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Just seen a different angle, it should have been a penalty anyway
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As I keep saying, it's not the tech that's ruining the game it's the refs operating it by not adhering to the "clear and obvious" guideline. If you are having to draw lines on the screen it's blatantly obvious it's not clear and obvious. Simple.
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West Ham were lousy, just lousy and we were miles better but we've said this too many times now.
Missing easy chances and defending badly is poor play. Trezeguet has missed two absolute sitters in 2 games and that just isn't good enough and we are so soft defensively that you always fear that a defensive mistake is just around the corner.
However the VAR decisions are sucking the joy out of the game.
I felt sick after Brighton and I feel sick now.
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Didn't see this one Dave so started another. Please merge
This is so frustrating but also part of our evolution. We are getting better but we are just so wasteful and too many players are invisible or not the needed quality. We threw away at least a point and certainly could have got three. Ollie needn't get up for penalties again. That was poor.
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Only consolation is imagine if we had that tonight in the final game last season. Think that sort of defeat relegating us would've finished me with football.
A really stupid and needless defeat. Shame as I was very happy with how we played as I thought Barkley would be a big miss but we cut through West Ham no problem although he'd have probably buried one of the Trez chances.
VAR is an atrocity and I still think we'd have won it anyway if Watkins had buried the penalty. He tried to be far too clever. Just get it on target and even if keeper saves there's a decent chance it would be retaken with him off the line.
Only disappointment is conceding 30 seconds into second half which tbh is unprofessional given what happened at start of the game. We do still have an air of that at times which could easily stop this 11 finishing as high up the league as our play deserves.
I think AEM coming on as our final attacking change while being at the same time our backup CB if anything had happened to the two tonight also shows we need a bit more help in those areas in January.
See why half of us were misery arses pre match Paul e.....(wink). Such a Villa way to lose two games after winning 3-0 at Arsenal.
Think we'll batter Newcastle though.
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The application of VAR is utter bollocks. The offside rule was not designed for this.
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Anyway we ve got an exiting Villa team and future back. It would take a lot to be (stable) amongst the better teams I guess. Nearly teams hit the woodwork and are nearly onside and seems to have some bad luck. Reality is teams and managers such as those from Brighton, Southampton and West ham are better than us as the moment. My expetations for the season are lowered after a (bit too) promising start.
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It’s not football anymore but that’s no excuse for not beating Gollum’s shitehawks, West Ham should be relegation fodder on that showing.
They're 5th in the league. Won't stay there of course but they've only lost 1 of their last 8 now and are unbeaten v us, Leicester, man. City and Spurs in that time.
Finishing above them will represent a good season and probable top half finish.
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How have we managed to lose that? Very pissed off
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It was McGiin, Luiz and Hourihane, not the defenders, who lost Ogbonna for the first goal. Three of them went with the other two West Ham players while Ogbonna went the other way.
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We dominated and were by far and away the better side.
They had 23 touches in our box, most of which must have occurred in the first 2 minutes of the first half and first minute of the second.
We didn't huff and puff, we dominated the ball, created the only threat in the game and cut them open enough, got into dangerous positions on enough occasions and missed gilt, edged, sitters.
I'm not sure we can play as badly as West Ham, be dominated so comprehensively, give the opposition nailed on sitters and win. Maybe Southampton away in 2013.
Just baffled. And the VAR. Carragher is spot on, its a fucking foul and because Watkins is fouled he is apparently offside, because some twat in a shed thinks an arm is offside and arbitrarily draws lines and fucking guess, quite frankly to decide a game on MM.
I've seen some opinions that we played badly, that we were shite- everybodybhas their view, but nonsense. Utter nonsense.
Frustrated with the result, hugely- but we looked by far and away the better side.
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Worryingly we are unable to get anything from a game if we concede first. That is a serious weakness at this level.
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Not sure I can actually take anymore of this VAR bullshit. You just know you can’t celebrate a goal these days. Football is dying.
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Anyway we ve got an exiting Villa team and future back. It would take a lot to be (stable) amongst the better teams I guess. Nearly teams hit the woodwork and are nearly onside and seems to have some bad luck. Reality is teams and managers such as those from Brighton, Southampton and West ham are better than us as the moment. My expetations for the season are lowered after a (bit too) promising start.
I fancy us to finish above two of those which will likely mean top half. There's a good 11 there now if not a squad and quality plan B options on the bench for last 20 minutes of games we're losing.
Think it's important we show patience as they've produced plenty of good stuff already this season along with the obligatory comical halves of football but that is life of a mid table team.
We do need to beat Newcastle as I don't fancy us to do much at Wolves. Do that and table will be looking good again.
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It was McGiin, Luiz and Hourihane, not the defenders, who lost Ogbonna for the first goal. Three of them went with the other two West Ham players while Ogbonna went the other way.
The whole zonal marking for corners is a shambles. It always leads to Mings not marking anyone, when he should be picking up the big and strong players attacking the ball. I can't believe Smith and co watch it fail every week and don't do anything about it.
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Dean has to make a decision with the defence and shake things up because we're shipping goals like last season. i'd like to see someone dropped if he's got the bottle to do it. Defence cost us the game not VAR, or watkins miss. midfield poor. Grealish doing his party tricks and trying to beat half their team again. last season deja vu indeed. I wouldn't mind so much but west ham were crap, really poor imo. Them being 5th is worthy of an episode of Arthur C Clarke's mysterious world (one for the kids etc..). Utter arse overall.
Two really soft goals, but have to disagree it’s anything like last season. We absolutely dominated that game, we never dominated any games like that last season that I can remember. A couple of sitters and a penalty missed, so architects of our downfall to an extent, but VAR did deny us a draw that was more than deserved.
On VAR in general, the absolute worst element of it, as Watkins scored, I celebrated, my 10 year old sat there and said ‘naw dad VAR will rule it out’. That’s before the replay. Totally taking the joy out of football for kids, that’s the worst bit.
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sorry but if you ship 2 goals against that west ham side then something is wrong with the defence. They had 2 shots at goal, they were literally playing for a draw at home.. What is that now 13 goals in 7 games?
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We’re improving.
It’s a tough defeat again but in comparison to last season we’re going places.
But VAR Wow!
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we will be the better side by far in both games we play this week
the fact we wont win both means questions need to be asked as to why
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Dean has to make a decision with the defence and shake things up because we're shipping goals like last season. i'd like to see someone dropped if he's got the bottle to do it. Defence cost us the game not VAR, or watkins miss. midfield poor. Grealish doing his party tricks and trying to beat half their team again. last season deja vu indeed. I wouldn't mind so much but west ham were crap, really poor imo. Them being 5th is worthy of an episode of Arthur C Clarke's mysterious world (one for the kids etc..). Utter arse overall.
Give me Grealish and party tricks any day of the week
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The more Neville and Carragher analyse that incident the more I'm fucking fuming.
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Worryingly we are unable to get anything from a game if we concede first. That is a serious weakness at this level.
It is for any football team. I was mildly encouraged that we had managed to equalise in the last two games after being a goal down but follow up play in both was feeble.
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I dont know what were doing on defending set pieces but Vestegaard and Ogbonna scoring free headers with Mings and Konsa nowhere near them is not right at all.
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Utter shambles. VAR, not us. Apart from the two goals we conceded.
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If you think that was like last season then you didn't watch any of last season. When did we go away and absolutely boss a side for the overwhelming majority of the game? Norwich and Burnley. And we won.
That performance wins us 99 games out of 100. The VAR decision is the shit cherry and the fucking cake.
The game has well and truly fucking gone.
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If I had the fitness of trez I reckon I could knock in 60 a season given the positions he gets into.
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Is there a single fan, player or manager, just one, who thinks fucking VAR has given anything to the game. It’s destroying it.
I've been against var ever since Kevin Friend shafted us at Crystal Palace. But I still talk to people who think it's a positive thing for football. Heels have been dug in massively.
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Dean has to make a decision with the defence and shake things up because we're shipping goals like last season. i'd like to see someone dropped if he's got the bottle to do it. Defence cost us the game not VAR, or watkins miss. midfield poor. Grealish doing his party tricks and trying to beat half their team again. last season deja vu indeed. I wouldn't mind so much but west ham were crap, really poor imo. Them being 5th is worthy of an episode of Arthur C Clarke's mysterious world (one for the kids etc..). Utter arse overall.
Two really soft goals, but have to disagree it’s anything like last season. We absolutely dominated that game, we never dominated any games like that last season that I can remember. A couple of sitters and a penalty missed, so architects of our downfall to an extent, but VAR did deny us a draw that was more than deserved.
On VAR in general, the absolute worst element of it, as Watkins scored, I celebrated, my 10 year old sat there and said ‘naw dad VAR will rule it out’. That’s before the replay. Totally taking the joy out of football for kids, that’s the worst bit.
smart kid. to be honest, the commentators were calling it. If they disallow stuff like the bamford goal, then Watkins was deffo offside by those standards.
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I really like Dean’s post match interview.
(humble pie eating doubter)
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We played really poorly at times and really well. We deserved to take something from that game. Hourihane needs to not complain about being dropped because he was awful. Trezeguet is the one of the most wasteful players I can remember playing for us. 4 defeats in 5 now. Not good at all.
Hourihane isn't Premier League standard I'm afraid, simple as that. His set piece delivery is normally excellent but aside from that he's anonymous and we can't afford to carry passengers.
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Deserved at least a draw. During the 3min line drawing exercise it was a shame the ref wasn't give the chance to see one view of it on the monitor and review the foul.
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It's frustrating to think, but we really should be top if you look at thr chances missed here and vs Brighton, as well as the asleep-at-the-wheel defending.
VaR was shit, but it really should only have been academic, chalking off our 4th goal, and not disallowing an equaliser.
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Everyone keeps talking about this and that the amount of possession we had and VAR but the bottom line is we are letting in goals for fun and we’ve just lost four out of the last five like or not ladies and gentlemen that’s relegation form
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Ming's again needs a long hard look at himself. How can Bowen win a header in the box like that for the second goal. If only we had competition for him. JT must weep at his casual manner of defending.
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It’s about belief, we dominate a game and still manage to lose.
There is a problem,not sure what it is but I would start with the defense.
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Dean has to make a decision with the defence and shake things up because we're shipping goals like last season. i'd like to see someone dropped if he's got the bottle to do it. Defence cost us the game not VAR, or watkins miss. midfield poor. Grealish doing his party tricks and trying to beat half their team again. last season deja vu indeed. I wouldn't mind so much but west ham were crap, really poor imo. Them being 5th is worthy of an episode of Arthur C Clarke's mysterious world (one for the kids etc..). Utter arse overall.
Two really soft goals, but have to disagree it’s anything like last season. We absolutely dominated that game, we never dominated any games like that last season that I can remember. A couple of sitters and a penalty missed, so architects of our downfall to an extent, but VAR did deny us a draw that was more than deserved.
On VAR in general, the absolute worst element of it, as Watkins scored, I celebrated, my 10 year old sat there and said ‘naw dad VAR will rule it out’. That’s before the replay. Totally taking the joy out of football for kids, that’s the worst bit.
smart kid. to be honest, the commentators were calling it. If they disallow stuff like the bamford goal, then Watkins was deffo offside by those standards.
He was offside because he was throwing his arm up to get away from Ogbonna who was throttling him. It was as clear a penalty as you will ever see.
They say that over a season decisions even themselves out but it sure does not feel that way does it?
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Moyes interview says it all.
Fair play to him.
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Great interview from Moyes. Very balanced. When asked why they were poor he said "because Aston Villa are a very good side" I'll take that as a positive. Let's just batter the Geordies please.
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Everyone keeps talking about this and that the amount of possession we had and VAR but the bottom line is we are letting in goals for fun and we’ve just lost four out of the last five like or not ladies and gentlemen that’s relegation form
That's the spirit
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Just seen a different angle, it should have been a penalty anyway
It can’t be a foul and therefore can’t be a penalty if the attacker is offside.
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Just seen a different angle, it should have been a penalty anyway
It can’t be a foul and therefore can’t be a penalty if the attacker is offside.
The reason he was offside is because he was being fouled.
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We are decent.
We are soooo much better than last season.
We are getting better.
All is good.
Shades of the ‘70’s is uncanny
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Everyone keeps talking about this and that the amount of possession we had and VAR but the bottom line is we are letting in goals for fun and we’ve just lost four out of the last five like or not ladies and gentlemen that’s relegation form
That's the spirit
He's right though. Four defeats from five and 11 goals conceded against Leeds, Southampton, Brighton and West Ham. Mostly really cheap goals where we didn't lay a glove on them. We need to cut that out. Conceding two goals a game is what nearly did for us last season.
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Just seen a different angle, it should have been a penalty anyway
It can’t be a foul and therefore can’t be a penalty if the attacker is offside.
The reason he was offside is because he was being fouled.
Replays show the grapple before the ball is crossed in
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Just seen a different angle, it should have been a penalty anyway
It can’t be a foul and therefore can’t be a penalty if the attacker is offside.
The reason he was offside is because he was being fouled.
You can argue that until your blue in the face it wasn’t a penalty & Watkins would have missed anyway.
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We played really poorly at times and really well. We deserved to take something from that game. Hourihane needs to not complain about being dropped because he was awful. Trezeguet is the one of the most wasteful players I can remember playing for us. 4 defeats in 5 now. Not good at all.
Disagree
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We are decent.
We are soooo much better than last season.
We are getting better.
All is good.
Shades of the ‘70’s is uncanny
But I’ll be fucked waiting 5 years to win the league and 6 to win be European Champions. 8)
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That is me done for ! When we are eventually allowed back into grounds i will not be going while this VAR is in operation .Last season the times i thought we had scored and then had to sit and wait what seemed a age while some bloke sat in a little room miles away decides someone's heel is offside or somebody's arm is offside. It got to the point when i did not even cheer for fear VAR would chalk it off. Since the lockdown and this season it is even worse.In the last three matches alone we have had VAR chalk off a goal after 40 seconds at Arsenal, had a penalty given against Brighton and then overturned and Watkins goal tonight disallowed by a elbow .Chuck in the pen United got for fouling Konsa and i have had enough .Tonight ,just like against Brighton instead of being excited at getting a pen or a goal i sat there thinking this is the Villa it will be overturned .To hell with VAR
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EoGs2msXUAcq5_m?format=jpg)
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We’re improving.
It’s a tough defeat again but in comparison to last season we’re going places.
But VAR Wow!
True (I guess / hope). I m so frustrated at the moment that it takes some time before i can see the positives.
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Dean has to make a decision with the defence and shake things up because we're shipping goals like last season. i'd like to see someone dropped if he's got the bottle to do it. Defence cost us the game not VAR, or watkins miss. midfield poor. Grealish doing his party tricks and trying to beat half their team again. last season deja vu indeed. I wouldn't mind so much but west ham were crap, really poor imo. Them being 5th is worthy of an episode of Arthur C Clarke's mysterious world (one for the kids etc..). Utter arse overall.
Two really soft goals, but have to disagree it’s anything like last season. We absolutely dominated that game, we never dominated any games like that last season that I can remember. A couple of sitters and a penalty missed, so architects of our downfall to an extent, but VAR did deny us a draw that was more than deserved.
On VAR in general, the absolute worst element of it, as Watkins scored, I celebrated, my 10 year old sat there and said ‘naw dad VAR will rule it out’. That’s before the replay. Totally taking the joy out of football for kids, that’s the worst bit.
smart kid. to be honest, the commentators were calling it. If they disallow stuff like the bamford goal, then Watkins was deffo offside by those standards.
He reads the game really well for his age to be fair. But to be honest since last season, I think he expects every goal to potentially go to VAR and be disallowed, that for me is an absolute tragedy in terms of what made me addicted to football as a kid, the thrill of a goal going in for the villa. the misuse of the technology is absolutely ripping the heart out of the game
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PGMOL saying foul on Watkins wasn't a clear and obvious error......
PGMOL is a back scratching, corrupt cartel. Lying, cheating fucks.
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EoGs2msXUAcq5_m?format=jpg)
Not a clear and obvious error. Fuck. Off.
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Just seen a different angle, it should have been a penalty anyway
It can’t be a foul and therefore can’t be a penalty if the attacker is offside.
The reason he was offside is because he was being fouled.
You can argue that until your blue in the face it wasn’t a penalty.
I think you will find a number of goals have been disallowed or penalties not given because of an infringement earlier in the play. Foul came before offside.
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Just seen a different angle, it should have been a penalty anyway
It can’t be a foul and therefore can’t be a penalty if the attacker is offside.
The reason he was offside is because he was being fouled.
You can argue that until your blue in the face it wasn’t a penalty.
Carragher and Neville have shown beyond any doubt it should have been a penalty. Watkins only gets his arm offside after he tries to get out of the stranglehold their player had him in.
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We can scream injustice all we like, the bottom line is we have now conceded 11 goals against Leeds, Soton, Brighton and West Ham and in every game missed some absolute sitters. That’s just fecking poor. We’ve utterly squandered our great start. Big game now against Newcastle.
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The hilarity of PGMOL wankers - not giving Ollie a pen because it wasn't a "clear and obvious" error. Yet an offside that require three minutes of drawing lines is. And the decision to overturn the one against Brighton was. You couldn't fucking make it up.
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EoGs2msXUAcq5_m?format=jpg)
Not a clear and obvious error. Fuck. Off.
And people wonder why players dive.
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That's unbelievable. They didn't show the foul on Sky, but that's literally the VAR team's one job. That's nearly as bad as the Fernandes one last season. For them to take nearly three minutes and then still get it completely wrong is totally unacceptable. I'd rather just have the normal refs doing their best.
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Just seen a different angle, it should have been a penalty anyway
It can’t be a foul and therefore can’t be a penalty if the attacker is offside.
The reason he was offside is because he was being fouled.
You can argue that until your blue in the face it wasn’t a penalty.
Carragher and Neville have shown beyond any doubt it should have been a penalty. Watkins only gets his arm offside after he tries to get out of the stranglehold their player had him in.
I’ve just seen those pictures and the replays again after I switched off in disgust at the final whistle. Can’t really argue with that, why didn’t VAR pick that up then?
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We can scream injustice all we like, the bottom line is we have now conceded 11 goals against Leeds, Soton, Brighton and West Ham and in every game missed some absolute sitters. That’s just fecking poor. We’ve utterly Squanto our great start. Big game now against Newcastle.
Massive game. No excuses. No fuck ups. No controversies.
Let's have one of those routine wins we've been talking about.
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It’s about belief, we dominate a game and still manage to lose.
There is a problem,not sure what it is but I would start with the defense.
We've missed a penalty and yet another fucking sitter, McGinn's shite right foot, off target with a fantastically positioned free kick and a header from six yards out, restricted the opposition to two efforts on target, and people think it's the defence that's the problem? Lots and lots and lots and fucking lots of shooting practice wouldn't go amiss, imho.
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EoGs2msXUAcq5_m?format=jpg)
It's a nailed on penalty but they get so carried away with the offside that the basics are being missed. Same with Fernandes vs us... he actually fouled our player, but that's not what they were looking at..just looking at contact.
For offsides, just draw the fucking lines to the back foot or even front foot. It's a lot clearer with the technology they have and not one fan, player, manager or referee would argue that rule...
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Everyone keeps talking about this and that the amount of possession we had and VAR but the bottom line is we are letting in goals for fun and we’ve just lost four out of the last five like or not ladies and gentlemen that’s relegation form
That's the spirit
He's right though. Four defeats from five and 11 goals conceded against Leeds, Southampton, Brighton and West Ham. Mostly really cheap goals where we didn't lay a glove on them. We need to cut that out. Conceding two goals a game is what nearly did for us last season.
With all that we've still got the 6th best defensive record in the league if I've added up correctly looking at the latest table.
Think a bigger problem is we simply don't have enough of a killer instinct if the chance dosen't fall to Jack or perhaps Barkley.
Striker missing penalties at key points isn't great either and what can you say about Trez finishing in last few games....thank god he got hot in the run in last season but a composure finisher when he has a bit of time to think he certainly isn't.
Seems we're only clinical for some reason in the really tough games. Liverpool enough said and Leicester we scored with only decent chance and Arsenal was probably the opposite of tonight, we scored at exactly the right times.
Strange season so far but I'm enjoying it. We're a threat at this level again which is enough for me for now.
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We played really poorly at times and really well. We deserved to take something from that game. Hourihane needs to not complain about being dropped because he was awful. Trezeguet is the one of the most wasteful players I can remember playing for us. 4 defeats in 5 now. Not good at all.
Disagree
We lose too many games, we ship too many soft goals. We need to pull our socks up, fast.
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Everyone keeps talking about this and that the amount of possession we had and VAR but the bottom line is we are letting in goals for fun and we’ve just lost four out of the last five like or not ladies and gentlemen that’s relegation form
Wilma?
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We will win the next five. Not too worried yet.
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I think you will find a number of goals have been disallowed or penalties not given because of an infringement earlier in the play. Foul came before offside.
Agreed. It's not like he was stood 3 yards offside. He was level with the attacker and the only thing that then became offside was his arm as a result of being fouled.
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It’s about belief, we dominate a game and still manage to lose.
There is a problem,not sure what it is but I would start with the defense.
We've missed a penalty and yet another fucking sitter, McGinn's shite right foot, off target with a fantastically positioned free kick and a header from six yards out, restricted the opposition to two efforts on target, and people think it's the defence that's the problem? Lots and lots and lots and fucking lots of shooting practice wouldn't go amiss, imho.
You could say we where allowed to attack and dominate the game because they were in the lead for most of the game.
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Just seen a different angle, it should have been a penalty anyway
It can’t be a foul and therefore can’t be a penalty if the attacker is offside.
The reason he was offside is because he was being fouled.
You can argue that until your blue in the face it wasn’t a penalty.
Carragher and Neville have shown beyond any doubt it should have been a penalty. Watkins only gets his arm offside after he tries to get out of the stranglehold their player had him in.
I’ve just seen those pictures and the replays again after I switched off in disgust at the final whistle. Can’t really argue with that, why didn’t VAR pick that up then?
That's the million dollar question. Carragher nailed it with "the var officials are busy drawing lines all over the screen and they completely miss this. Forget the offside. It's a penalty "
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It was McGiin, Luiz and Hourihane, not the defenders, who lost Ogbonna for the first goal. Three of them went with the other two West Ham players while Ogbonna went the other way.
This
The whole zonal marking for corners is a shambles. It always leads to Mings not marking anyone, when he should be picking up the big and strong players attacking the ball. I can't believe Smith and co watch it fail every week and don't do anything about it.
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Just seen a different angle, it should have been a penalty anyway
It can’t be a foul and therefore can’t be a penalty if the attacker is offside.
The reason he was offside is because he was being fouled.
You can argue that until your blue in the face it wasn’t a penalty.
Carragher and Neville have shown beyond any doubt it should have been a penalty. Watkins only gets his arm offside after he tries to get out of the stranglehold their player had him in.
I’ve just seen those pictures and the replays again after I switched off in disgust at the final whistle. Can’t really argue with that, why didn’t VAR pick that up then?
The PGMOL have said it wasn't a clear and obvious error. Well, they're hardly likely to admit they hadn't even looked, are they?
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I am exhausted discussing referees and VAR after every match.
The PGMOL cannot be responsible for reviewing/auditing their performances. It has to be an unassociated third party, it’s the only way to make it fair.
I want to boycott the game so badly because of what it’s become, but I cannot throw away my support for the club.
Club executives need to gather and do something about this.
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I dont know what were doing on defending set pieces but Vestegaard and Ogbonna scoring free headers with Mings and Konsa nowhere near them is not right at all.
Both carbon copies of each other. Fault maybe more so with coaching but we only have four players capable of winning a header in the air (Martinez, Konsa, Mings and Watkins) and that's a big problem tonight and going forward.
Thought it was one of our best performances of the season. On another night, we score at least four. Watkins missed a complete sitter, Trez missed a sitter worse than AEG's last season. Not to mind a missed peno...didn't fancy Watkins I must say after the miss minutes before. Not to mention the complete and utter shit show at the end.
We completely dominated midfield throughout. Likes of Soucek and Rice were chasing shadows. Luiz was outstanding. Jack on a different level, though I didn't agree with moving him off the left wing late on. Cash was decent again. Surprised (well maybe not) to see Hourihane getting criticised. Was very sharp on the ball, we all know his limitations without it like the man he replaced.
Another problem for me pre game was the quality on our bench. Traore was ok but AEG (who I've always had a flicker of faith in) was genuinely hopeless. Elmo for Cash after 85 mins or so...really?
Martinez 7, Cash 7, Konsa 6, Mings 6, Targett 7, Luiz 9, Hourihane 7, McGinn 6, Trez 4, Watkins 5, Jack 9. Traore 6, AEG 4, Elmo 5.
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I think you will find a number of goals have been disallowed or penalties not given because of an infringement earlier in the play. Foul came before offside.
Agreed. It's not like he was stood 3 yards offside. He was level with the attacker and the only thing that then became offside was his arm as a result of being fouled.
And Kappa designing longer sleeves than umbro
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Everyone keeps talking about this and that the amount of possession we had and VAR but the bottom line is we are letting in goals for fun and we’ve just lost four out of the last five like or not ladies and gentlemen that’s relegation form
Not always. Pretty sure last season Burnley finished about 11th and they lost more games than they actually won.
I think we'll beat Newcastle comfortably with what we showed tonight and table will look much better then. Really don't want us coming out flat and feeling sorry for ourselves as we were 3 down within 30 minutes when we did that v Southampton.
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We can scream injustice all we like, the bottom line is we have now conceded 11 goals against Leeds, Soton, Brighton and West Ham and in every game missed some absolute sitters. That’s just fecking poor. We’ve utterly Squanto our great start. Big game now against Newcastle.
Indeed we've been unlucky, very unlucky, but we've also been our own worst enemy in all those games. If we can lose so many "winnable" games while actually playing quite well and creating chances, it doesn't bode well for when we hit a run of bad form or get some injuries. I hope the Newcastle game will turn things around - I fear we'll be in a tailspin if it doesn't.
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Everyone keeps talking about this and that the amount of possession we had and VAR but the bottom line is we are letting in goals for fun and we’ve just lost four out of the last five like or not ladies and gentlemen that’s relegation form
That's the spirit
He's right though. Four defeats from five and 11 goals conceded against Leeds, Southampton, Brighton and West Ham. Mostly really cheap goals where we didn't lay a glove on them. We need to cut that out. Conceding two goals a game is what nearly did for us last season.
He was talking relegation form last week as well though and it’s ultra negative. The results and goals conceded have been poor over four of the last five games, but the form or performances haven’t been. Talking relegation form in November, when we have 15 points is negative for negatives sake.
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Still a bit stunned by that. Should have won the game quite comfortably and not had to worry about VAR decisions. We looked dangerous on the break all game and I thought Traore did better when he came on.
To concede twice in the manner we did was very poor though and it is happening too often at the moment. As for VAR, I thought the first angle they showed made it look like Watkins was inside. They then seemed to pan out to an angle which made it difficult to see anything. As Gary Neville pointed out, they were so busy checking for offside that they missed the fact it was a blatant penalty.
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Is it practically possible to score with your armpit? Of course not. We're not the first and we won't be the last to suffer from this madness. I didnt realise football was meant to be more litigious than golf. Or Brexit.
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Well quite how we lost I don't know. Well we do, we can moan all we like about VAR but
- we defended and tackled at the start of each half like a bunch of halfwits
- we couldn't finish for toffee, yes Trez I'm looking at you.
- there was a very large Barkley shaped hole in that team
- if VAR was looking at offside then reviewing the whole incident should he have looked at the neck hold?
An immensely frustrating evening where West Ham scored twice from two chances and in the rest of the game did the precise sum of fuck all. We still have too many players who need too long to decide/pass.
All in all that's two performances in a row where sloppy defending and poor finishing have cost us. Sort it out Dean or we risk sliding into the bad habits of last season.
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We shot ourselves in the foot with there goals, which were the only thing they did during the game. Did more than enough to win it but we can't keep coming from behind.
As for VAR, we were having the same conversation after the Burnley away game last season and we still are a season later. Says it all really.
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The PGMOL have said it wasn't a clear and obvious error. Well, they're hardly likely to admit they hadn't even looked, are they?
PGMOL are a joke. They seem to comment on random decisions, with about as much consistency as the hated VAR itself. I can't think of another rule change in any other sport that has been introduced as badly as VAR in football has. The reason football is the most popular and watched sport in the world is the speed, excitement and spontaneity. So yeah, let's take that out of the game. Morons.
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Everyone keeps talking about this and that the amount of possession we had and VAR but the bottom line is we are letting in goals for fun and we’ve just lost four out of the last five like or not ladies and gentlemen that’s relegation form
That's the spirit
He's right though. Four defeats from five and 11 goals conceded against Leeds, Southampton, Brighton and West Ham. Mostly really cheap goals where we didn't lay a glove on them. We need to cut that out. Conceding two goals a game is what nearly did for us last season.
He was talking relegation form last week as well though and it’s ultra negative. The results and goals conceded have been poor over four of the last five games, but the form or performances haven’t been. Talking relegation form in November, when we have 15 points is negative for negatives sake.
It's results not performances that decide if you get relegated. 4 defeats in 5 is too short a run to be relegation form but it's getting there.
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Fuckin livid as livid been for a long time.
Two shit goal conceded - yes.
But easily the better team. By a distance
And Watkins non goal was a foul - should have been a pen.
Lost 4 points to wank VAR
Feel the same. Just been for a quick 3 mile walk (can’t run anymore) as was so frustrated How did we lose that. West Ham are awful
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It’s about belief, we dominate a game and still manage to lose.
There is a problem,not sure what it is but I would start with the defense.
We've missed a penalty and yet another fucking sitter, McGinn's shite right foot, off target with a fantastically positioned free kick and a header from six yards out, restricted the opposition to two efforts on target, and people think it's the defence that's the problem? Lots and lots and lots and fucking lots of shooting practice wouldn't go amiss, imho.
You could say we where allowed to attack and dominate the game because they were in the lead for most of the game.
Then hats off to Moyes for his unwavering bravery in banking on us missing all those chances. It's not like they successfully shut up shop, we battered them but finished with all the aplomb of a Scouts under-9s 'b' team.
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Putting var to one just for a mo we should easily have got something out of that game, but for some poor defending, poor concentration and poor finishing.
That said we were head and shoulders above a poor west spam.
As for Var and the people who adminster it...they can just f-ck off! Football has been ruined by its introduction and poor application.
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I can well believe the twats running VAR have come out and defended their decision not to award the penalty for Ollie Watkins. I'm with Gary Neville in believing that they never checked it. The referee's union is alive and kicking and we can all wait for Dermot Gallagher to defend his useless friends again next Monday.
Other than that, we beat ourselves. Defensively crap for both goals, bin off the zonal marking shit, it does not work. The second goal was galling. The smallest man on the pitch, almost, wins an easy header yet again in front of our centre backs. Trezeguet is a waste of a shirt number, terrible miss, it was easier to score and somehow he fucked it up. Hourihane, El Ghazi are also a waste of a shirt, not good enough for this level. Four defeats in five, so we really need to beat Newcastle on Friday night. Very frustrated.
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The hilarity of PGMOL wankers - not giving Ollie a pen because it wasn't a "clear and obvious" error. Yet an offside that require three minutes of drawing lines is. And the decision to overturn the one against Brighton was. You couldn't fucking make it up.
You couldn’t make it up but VAR do, every week.
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Everyone keeps talking about this and that the amount of possession we had and VAR but the bottom line is we are letting in goals for fun and we’ve just lost four out of the last five like or not ladies and gentlemen that’s relegation form
That's the spirit
He's right though. Four defeats from five and 11 goals conceded against Leeds, Southampton, Brighton and West Ham. Mostly really cheap goals where we didn't lay a glove on them. We need to cut that out. Conceding two goals a game is what nearly did for us last season.
He was talking relegation form last week as well though and it’s ultra negative. The results and goals conceded have been poor over four of the last five games, but the form or performances haven’t been. Talking relegation form in November, when we have 15 points is negative for negatives sake.
It's results not performances that decide if you get relegated. 4 defeats in 5 is too short a run to be relegation form but it's getting there.
Nobody disputes that.
If Aston Villa play 10 games playing like that, creating chances like that and West Ham play 10 games, having around 90 seconds in the opposition box, who gets the most points.
There's no question mark on that, for avoidance of doubt.
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West Ham fans know they stole it, they know they were shit and it’s extremely telling that a pile of shitt product like them is up to 5th in this league.
Stop fucking about and get the god damn points.
Sick of VAR, sick of excuses, sick of finger pointing. Stop slagging the players off, we should’ve won that crapfest 7-2. We have good owners, I’m not worried in the slightest.
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Dean has to make a decision with the defence and shake things up because we're shipping goals like last season. i'd like to see someone dropped if he's got the bottle to do it. Defence cost us the game not VAR, or watkins miss. midfield poor. Grealish doing his party tricks and trying to beat half their team again. last season deja vu indeed. I wouldn't mind so much but west ham were crap, really poor imo. Them being 5th is worthy of an episode of Arthur C Clarke's mysterious world (one for the kids etc..). Utter arse overall.
Two really soft goals, but have to disagree it’s anything like last season. We absolutely dominated that game, we never dominated any games like that last season that I can remember. A couple of sitters and a penalty missed, so architects of our downfall to an extent, but VAR did deny us a draw that was more than deserved.
On VAR in general, the absolute worst element of it, as Watkins scored, I celebrated, my 10 year old sat there and said ‘naw dad VAR will rule it out’. That’s before the replay. Totally taking the joy out of football for kids, that’s the worst bit.
I was like your 10 year old. Didn’t celebrate and unfortunately we were right. Sucks the life out the game
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I think this team does not believe in itself, we were better than West Ham, we were better than Brighton but no points.
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I think this team does not believe in itself, we were better than West Ham, we were better than Brighton but no points.
In what sense, in front of goal?
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Dean has to make a decision with the defence and shake things up because we're shipping goals like last season. i'd like to see someone dropped if he's got the bottle to do it. Defence cost us the game not VAR, or watkins miss. midfield poor. Grealish doing his party tricks and trying to beat half their team again. last season deja vu indeed. I wouldn't mind so much but west ham were crap, really poor imo. Them being 5th is worthy of an episode of Arthur C Clarke's mysterious world (one for the kids etc..). Utter arse overall.
Two really soft goals, but have to disagree it’s anything like last season. We absolutely dominated that game, we never dominated any games like that last season that I can remember. A couple of sitters and a penalty missed, so architects of our downfall to an extent, but VAR did deny us a draw that was more than deserved.
On VAR in general, the absolute worst element of it, as Watkins scored, I celebrated, my 10 year old sat there and said ‘naw dad VAR will rule it out’. That’s before the replay. Totally taking the joy out of football for kids, that’s the worst bit.
smart kid. to be honest, the commentators were calling it. If they disallow stuff like the bamford goal, then Watkins was deffo offside by those standards.
He reads the game really well for his age to be fair. But to be honest since last season, I think he expects every goal to potentially go to VAR and be disallowed, that for me is an absolute tragedy in terms of what made me addicted to football as a kid, the thrill of a goal going in for the villa. the misuse of the technology is absolutely ripping the heart out of the game
Once this pandemic comes to an end there is a very real risk that people will stop attending matches if they're deprived of the visceral unleashing of whatever ails them the moment a goal is scored. From a personal perspective, there seems very little point in making a 200 mile round trip to be cold, frustrated and left in the dark while something that used to provide joy is pored upon by men in a West London warehouse, only to be told in the end that what you think is important doesn't matter.
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Well I think it’s safe to say the Sheffield United ghost goal has been well and truly avenged.
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Bit of a smash and grab from WHU there.
Very poor start, remember they should have scored from the incident that resulted in the corner they scored from.
Again we looked composed and that we thought we looked like we belonged up there, but for all the statistical domination we have to create more clear cut chances and we have to convert more of them. Duggie was immense, Jack not far behind him. Conor good from set pieces but he just hasnt got the physicality to cement a place. Trez will always be popular because we love a trier but it's not enough these days, he lacks quality.
A good team performance with a lot more to come from some players, not too disappointed. I thought the goal would be ruled out as soon as I saw the first replay, to be fair to the ref and VAR it wasnt until a long time afterward that even Carragher saw the missed penalty incident.
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very unlucky tonight , at imes we played some great football.
Jack and Dougie controlled the game , both great .
Houriane is not good enough Trez cant keep missing sitters and Troare looked ok to me.
We are getting better and VAR is fcuking awful, they completely missed a pen.
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Well I think it’s safe to say the Sheffield United ghost goal has been well and truly avenged.
That goal will never be forgotten while a single Stripey, Nose or Leedswouldhavetakenmore stalks the earth.
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Jamie Carragher saying that defenders are going to have to change the way they defend, because of VAR. Is that right Jamie? Do the defenders in the Championship have to change too? No, they don't and they shouldn't even if they get promoted! VAR is the problem, the wank decision making, the twats running the show. I also think that commentators might be influencing the fuckers watching the monitors too, oooh, that's offside, oooh, he scraped an eyelash so must be a penalty! Slowing things down always makes it look worse than it is. It's a shit system and if it's too close to call, don't bother with it.
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It’s about belief, we dominate a game and still manage to lose.
There is a problem,not sure what it is but I would start with the defense.
We've missed a penalty and yet another fucking sitter, McGinn's shite right foot, off target with a fantastically positioned free kick and a header from six yards out, restricted the opposition to two efforts on target, and people think it's the defence that's the problem? Lots and lots and lots and fucking lots of shooting practice wouldn't go amiss, imho.
You could say we where allowed to attack and dominate the game because they were in the lead for most of the game.
Then hats off to Moyes for his unwavering bravery in banking on us missing all those chances. It's not like they successfully shut up shop, we battered them but finished with all the aplomb of a Scouts under-9s 'b' team.
Ja. In the end I will also say we were the better team. Its so frustrating not scoring on those clear cut chances and conceed cheap ish goals (again) that it makes me playing devils advocate or something it seems.
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Dean has to make a decision with the defence and shake things up because we're shipping goals like last season. i'd like to see someone dropped if he's got the bottle to do it. Defence cost us the game not VAR, or watkins miss. midfield poor. Grealish doing his party tricks and trying to beat half their team again. last season deja vu indeed. I wouldn't mind so much but west ham were crap, really poor imo. Them being 5th is worthy of an episode of Arthur C Clarke's mysterious world (one for the kids etc..). Utter arse overall.
Two really soft goals, but have to disagree it’s anything like last season. We absolutely dominated that game, we never dominated any games like that last season that I can remember. A couple of sitters and a penalty missed, so architects of our downfall to an extent, but VAR did deny us a draw that was more than deserved.
On VAR in general, the absolute worst element of it, as Watkins scored, I celebrated, my 10 year old sat there and said ‘naw dad VAR will rule it out’. That’s before the replay. Totally taking the joy out of football for kids, that’s the worst bit.
smart kid. to be honest, the commentators were calling it. If they disallow stuff like the bamford goal, then Watkins was deffo offside by those standards.
He reads the game really well for his age to be fair. But to be honest since last season, I think he expects every goal to potentially go to VAR and be disallowed, that for me is an absolute tragedy in terms of what made me addicted to football as a kid, the thrill of a goal going in for the villa. the misuse of the technology is absolutely ripping the heart out of the game
Once this pandemic comes to an end there is a very real risk that people will stop attending matches if they're deprived of the visceral unleashing of whatever ails them the moment a goal is scored. From a personal perspective, there seems very little point in making a 200 mile round trip to be cold, frustrated and left in the dark while something that used to provide joy is pored upon by men in a West London warehouse, only to be told in the end that what you think is important doesn't matter.
It's sucking the life and joy out of the game and I hate var with a passion. I started off optimistic about it but that quickly evaporated once I witnessed the total fuckfest they have made of it. But what can us ordinary fans do about it. We had regular sellouts at Villa Park before the lockdown even though we were getting regularly shafted by the Stockley Park mafia. I'd be willing to get involved in any kind of action to protest against it. I'd love it if we were the club whose fans started the revolt that lead to it being scrapped or at least radically changed for the better.
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Could have done better on many fronts tonight, however we did better on many fronts than we did in games at this stage last season. Positive progress is being made and we need to understand that a team rarely goes from relegation fodder to top 6 contender in 2 seasons.
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Carragher just pointing out Watkins was fouled before the disallowed goal - he should have gone down if Ogbonna had both arms around his neck
That’s what I couldn’t understand, his arm was there because he was being dragged around. That’s a more obvious error than his arm being two inches offside
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His thumb was offside but why should that matter when you can't score with your thumb and it can't "interfere with play"? The Watkins penalty appeal looked like a dive to me. Henri Lansbury's "goal" against Palace countered the Sheffield United "goal".
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If commentator was correct that he had missed three of his last five penalties before this one why was he taking it?
Why do we keep the bringing likes of el Ghazi on when is Ramsey is on the bench, and Hourihane is useless.
Surely we would be better trying a couple of the younger players than the very predictable no hopers.
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Dean has to make a decision with the defence and shake things up because we're shipping goals like last season. i'd like to see someone dropped if he's got the bottle to do it. Defence cost us the game not VAR, or watkins miss. midfield poor. Grealish doing his party tricks and trying to beat half their team again. last season deja vu indeed. I wouldn't mind so much but west ham were crap, really poor imo. Them being 5th is worthy of an episode of Arthur C Clarke's mysterious world (one for the kids etc..). Utter arse overall.
Two really soft goals, but have to disagree it’s anything like last season. We absolutely dominated that game, we never dominated any games like that last season that I can remember. A couple of sitters and a penalty missed, so architects of our downfall to an extent, but VAR did deny us a draw that was more than deserved.
On VAR in general, the absolute worst element of it, as Watkins scored, I celebrated, my 10 year old sat there and said ‘naw dad VAR will rule it out’. That’s before the replay. Totally taking the joy out of football for kids, that’s the worst bit.
smart kid. to be honest, the commentators were calling it. If they disallow stuff like the bamford goal, then Watkins was deffo offside by those standards.
Bamford didn't have an àrm round his neck
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The starting eleven had a look of last seasons strugglers about it and after 15mins I thought I was correct however we started to create from then on.
The reassuring thing is Villa are making loads of chances. At some point Trez, watkins etc will start to score and won't stop. Like Calvert LEwin used to miss at least 3 sitters a game last season and now he's clinical. Just hopefully we wont have to wait 40 games till we see it.
The defence is something that needs to be sorted out. I don't think Mings likes to go for headers.
Barkley is a massive miss.
Out of the lost games Leeds (2nd half only) is the only one we've not deserved anything.
Trez Traore and Gazi all seem to be typical archetype inconsistant wingers, Trez should keep the shirt because of higher work rate but the more the chances go begging the more Smith will be tempted to give one of the others a chance.
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I detest VAR too, just adds another incompetent official into the mix and undermines the one on the pitch. Fine for binary decisions like is the ball over the line but that's it. Neville comparing football to golf or NFL says it all, they are trying to turn football into one of them but it's a dynamic team game.
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On the positive.
We have not yet being completely been rolled over and well beaten this season. Even Southampton
We have been on the whole this season played very well at times.
And lost 4 points to shit VAR.
I have been probably for years the most sceptical fan on here for years. - but I can see the future is ours.
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Imagine being at Goodison in November 2008 and VAR being a thing. I wouldn't have a dent in my shin is about the only consolation.
Fuck VAR.
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It’s another one of our bad streaks under Dean though. Four out of five defeats against teams we need to compete with. Friday starting to look pretty important.
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On the positive.
We have not yet being completely been rolled over and well beaten this season. Even Southampton
We have been on the whole this season played very well at times.
And lost 4 points to shit VAR.
I am have been probably for years the most sceptical fan on here for years. - but I can see the future is ours.
Leeds hammered us second half. That was rotten. Agreed on the rest. We have had breaks go our way this season too. Soft VAR call for Sheff Utd in the opening game against us. Couple of deflections helping us put away Liverpool. We are creating loads of chances to score which is a big positive, Watkins and Trez have missed numerous sitters. We have arguably the best player in our division in the team. Vastly improved goalkeeper. Much better at RCB with Konsa. Lots of reasons to remain positive.
McGinn's form still too patchy I think. Woeful effort with his right foot tonight. Mings patchy at best too. Bit more competition for their places would be good.
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It’s another one of our bad streaks under Dean though. Four out of five defeats against teams we need to compete with. Friday starting to look pretty important.
Play well and lose soon becomes play bad and lose.
We go from optimistic to pessimistic.
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It’s another one of our bad streaks under Dean though. Four out of five defeats against teams we need to compete with. Friday starting to look pretty important.
Yes it is but generally we match up well against Newcastle and they were arguably the worst visiting team last season.
If reports are true and they can barely train and have lost half their team to covid there is simply no excuse for winning that one so I'd be far more negative if we can't get a win from that than tonight which overall had plenty of good stuff.
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Not wishing to denigrate our goalkeeper, as I think he's looked like the best we've had in a while, but of the last 11 opposition efforts on target, he's had to pick 8 of them out of the net.
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It’s another one of our bad streaks under Dean though. Four out of five defeats against teams we need to compete with. Friday starting to look pretty important.
We did play well tonight but didn’t in the previous 3 defeats. The Liverpool and Arsenal performances are masking a really poor run of form
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I also think that commentators might be influencing the fuckers watching the monitors too, oooh, that's offside, oooh, he scraped an eyelash so must be a penalty! Slowing things down always makes it look worse than it is. It's a shit system and if it's too close to call, don't bother with it.
I wondered this too regarding the commentary because if they are it's only natural it's going to influence them.
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Not wishing to denigrate our goalkeeper, as I think he's looked like the best we've had in a while, but of the last 11 opposition efforts on target, he's had to pick 8 of them out of the net.
Well he’ll have Heaton back soon to put pressure on him.
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It’s another one of our bad streaks under Dean though. Four out of five defeats against teams we need to compete with. Friday starting to look pretty important.
Play well and lose soon becomes play bad and lose.
We go from optimistic to pessimistic.
Or play well, twat Newcastle. Seems more likely.
If the game goes ahead mind.
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It’s another one of our bad streaks under Dean though. Four out of five defeats against teams we need to compete with. Friday starting to look pretty important.
Play well and lose soon becomes play bad and lose.
We go from optimistic to pessimistic.
Or play well, twat Newcastle. Seems more likely.
If the game goes ahead mind.
They'll be forced to put their under 16s out by the sounds of things.
Had to chuckle at report I've just read saying Newcastle want to postpone as Bruce won't have any time to work on tactics at the training ground!
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We played really poorly at times and really well. We deserved to take something from that game. Hourihane needs to not complain about being dropped because he was awful. Trezeguet is the one of the most wasteful players I can remember playing for us. 4 defeats in 5 now. Not good at all.
Hourihane isn't Premier League standard I'm afraid, simple as that. His set piece delivery is normally excellent but aside from that he's anonymous and we can't afford to carry passengers.
I thought the ball moved really well through the midfield generally, it was the terrible defending and finishing that let us down.
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It’s another one of our bad streaks under Dean though. Four out of five defeats against teams we need to compete with. Friday starting to look pretty important.
We did play well tonight but didn’t in the previous 3 defeats. The Liverpool and Arsenal performances are masking a really poor run of form
Not really sure how much masking is going on when the two events you refer to involve putting seven goals past the almighty Liverpool and 3 away from home at Arsenal.
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It’s another one of our bad streaks under Dean though. Four out of five defeats against teams we need to compete with. Friday starting to look pretty important.
We did play well tonight but didn’t in the previous 3 defeats. The Liverpool and Arsenal performances are masking a really poor run of form
Yep. Winning more than we lose this season is masking how poor we are.
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I have just watched the highlights of tonights game and i am more angry than ever at the so called offside goal Only the idiots at Stockley Park could fail to see Ogbonna with his arms around Watkins .Or is it a case of they do not want to see it as it would mean saying the referee got it wrong .
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I have just watched the highlights of tonights game and i am more angry than ever at the so called offside goal Only the idiots at Stockley Park could fail to see Ogbonna with his arms around Watkins .Or is it a case of they do not want to see it as it would mean saying the referee got it wrong .
As they said ont'telly - it's like a mafia.
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Stockley Park...West London Warehouse... Any chance Sexual Ealing can quickly dash back from Heathrow, explaining to the missus that he "forgot some of our things"; promptly indulge in a bit of arson as his last notable act on British soil before escaping to a new life in Mexico as planned? It would make for a great ending to the movie version of H&V.
VAR - for God sake, burn it down.
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So frustrating.
What more is there left to say about the soul destroying, utterly joyless farce that is VAR? Football, played in empty stadiums and controlled by some guys in a cupboard somewhere with a sophisticated electronic ruler. Any possible element of spontaneity or joy ruthlessly removed. Perhaps we’ll do away with the concept of scoring goals entirely next just to be certain there’s no joy left in the game whatsoever.
The most frustrating Villa game I’ve seen for a while, well, at least since last week. We deserved far more. Shot ourselves in the foot with brain freezes at the start of either half of course but still should be taking something from that one, for the vast majority we controlled it.
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I haven't been that frustrated after a game for a long while.
How we didn't win is hard to take after we dominated them for long periods especially in the second half.
After I calmed down and reading some of the other posters I agree that we are light years away from last season.
I'm not worried just annoyed about having 0 points from the last two games.
I think we will win more than we lose this season and think mid-table is where we will end up.
Dougie MOM for me tonight all class.
Jack also excellent.
We really should beat Newcastle on Friday if we play like that.
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Besides the two obvious errors, played well.
Deserved more than we got and VAR ref performance is beyond embarrassing (again).
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Should’ve had at least a point from that arguably 3. Missed the 2nd west ham goal, but defending for the first was shit- fast asleep. I had a feeling Watkins would miss the pen- didn’t look confident and the delay probably didn’t help him, although it didn’t look a penalty really to me in the first place. What can you say about theVAR decision? He was fkn level and the ref gave it. How that can be chalked off as a ‘clear and obvious’ error after 3 minutes of scrutiny which was at best an inconclusive outcome is beyond my comprehension. They need to either scrap it or sort the muppets out who are administering it. Beyond a joke now.
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Fuck West Ham. Horrible to watch, too much fouling.
Thought we deserved at least a point. Mings needs some competition for his place, Hourihane shouldn't start for us, Watkins needs more support up top with him.
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I thought VAR was there to overule when an obvious offside was missed not to run the rule over finger tips and big toes.
That said we had more than enough chances to kill the game off, thought Jack was brilliant.
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I’ve laughed, almost wept at how bad our club has been at times.
VAR is something else, I’m raging like a steroid-fuelled, small-balled bodybuilder.
Fuck VAR.
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we will be the better side by far in both games we play this week
the fact we wont win both means questions need to be asked as to why
The stats from our last 3 losses are quite astonishing. How we haven't won these games is indeed a question which should be posed. You could put one down to bad luck or a bad ref, but not all three.
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Leicester Pos. 4 P10 W 6 D 0 L 4 PTS 18
Aston Villa Pos. 10 P 9 W 5 D 0 L 4 PTS 15
I'd feel better if it weren't for Trezeguet missing 40 chances, Watkins taking a shit penalty, Covid-19 thos fucking bubbles after their goals and VAR.
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Offside is not subject to clear and obvious.
You can not give the opposition 2 goals and expect to win at this level.
Why give the penalty kick to someone who is not very good at taking penalties.
How long can we expect Jack to hang around when we are looking at mid table mediocrity at best?
VAR is shit
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I detected a bit of frustration from Dougie with some of his teammates. They were not making forward runs into space to receive the ball from him. Thought he played really intelligently and dropped back several times into defence when Mings or Konsa meandered forward.
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We played well for the most part, two major lapses in concentration and another huge miss by Trez and Ollie. How they can rule his goal offside is an absolute shambles. Somehow the clubs and players need to come together and get rid of it. It’s an bloody joke. Every match it fails massively.
I’ve always said if two blokes in a studio with countless camera angles can’t agree how can we have that in a live event. It has to go back to basics, so much better.
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Watching last night - I think we need to hope that Jack does not get injured, without him we are going to struggle
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VAR didn't cost us the game. Our defending and wastefulness up front did.
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It’s another one of our bad streaks under Dean though. Four out of five defeats against teams we need to compete with. Friday starting to look pretty important.
Play well and lose soon becomes play bad and lose.
We go from optimistic to pessimistic.
Or play well, twat Newcastle. Seems more likely.
If the game goes ahead mind.
They'll be forced to put their under 16s out by the sounds of things.
Had to chuckle at report I've just read saying Newcastle want to postpone as Bruce won't have any time to work on tactics at the training ground!
Unexpected bonus then for the Gerodies.
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VAR didn't cost us the game. Our defending and wastefulness up front did.
VAR has cost us 2 points in the past two games just as much as Tezuguet missing two open goals.
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VAR didn't cost us the game. Our defending and wastefulness up front did.
VAR has cost us 2 points in the past two games just as much as Tezuguet missing two open goals.
If course it has. No difference, mistakes by us and the officials with their stupid toy.
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I want two things to happen this weekend.
I want us to be fired up to smash Newcastle for one. Then I want VAR to give Fernandes a hatrick and Man Yanited (spit) to put 5 on those stone age cloggers and their fruity fucking bubbles.
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Not wishing to denigrate our goalkeeper, as I think he's looked like the best we've had in a while, but of the last 11 opposition efforts on target, he's had to pick 8 of them out of the net.
And of those 11 goals which do you think he could have saved? Leeds, Brighton and Southampton goals were unstoppable.
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It seems like football has been replaced by something called varball. While var continues as it is my appreciation for the game is diminishing. It may yet be up to the proper fans of all clubs to do something in protest about var because the decision makers are doing f-ck all.
Of course var impacted the result along with poor defending, concentration and striking within the penalty area. Whatever our defensive coach is doing it clearly isn't good enough to get the most from our back 4.
Points on the board was the least we deserved from that game despite all the failings.
Btw McGinn's form was awful last night. I'm still trying to work out what he contributed if anything.
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I can’t help but think that we are short on quality in the final third. I like Trez, he works hard but misses too many key chances. Similarly, El Ghazi is not good enough to come on at this level and impact the game when we need it...I was going to say similar for Traore, but it’s early days so will have to see BUT we do need something else in January, otherwise we’ll see a lot of chances going begging and frustration will become the norm.
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After calming down and reflecting on last night this is how I now see things. We are still work in progress but a million miles better than last year, though we did see glimpses of how Dean wanted to play eg Norwich away.
Some clever recruitment this summer has seen the overall quality improve and we are now a force to be reckoned with even if we have been wasteful. Even Moyes had to concede that.
Although January transfer windows are notoriously difficult I fully expect us to keep plugging our week spots - and right now I would include Tyrone in that bracket. I don’t think anybody can see our best eleven is not good enough to beat even the best sides in the league - our problem is if any one of them has a bad day our quality takes an immediate nose dive
So, having calmed down as I say, I am more optimistic than I have been for near on 20 years and can’t wait to see what we look like this time next year
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We've now lost 4 out of our last 5 games so we have to be a bit concerned about what is going on. Var is shite, but we win some and lose some and there's nothing we can do about it. We need to get ruthless and make the advantages we have in games (we're playing well) . My fear is we have a very good team but an average squad and our inability to change the team between and within games is hurting us.
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we may have lost 4 out of 5 but we shouldn’t have
That’s the difference from previous seasons
can’t remember being so pissed of with a performance than last night
to many players need to take a look at themselves
Mings, Target, McGinn, Watkins, Trez none of them are under any pressure of losing their place in the first 11 because we have no quality to replace them
but we should have won easily last night against a side who play Bruce ball
these players let themselves and the club down, it’s not good enough
I dont put Conor in that group because he’s very limited and can’t do any better,
he is what he is out of his depth but that’s not his fault
West Ham are not a good football side yet they are 5 th in the league ffs
Opportunity missed again
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We've now lost 4 out of our last 5 games so we have to be a bit concerned about what is going on. Var is shite, but we win some and lose some and there's nothing we can do about it. We need to get ruthless and make the advantages we have in games (we're playing well) . My fear is we have a very good team but an average squad and our inability to change the team between and within games is hurting us.
I’m not too concerned. Think it’s better to look at the performance levels rather than just results and the last couple of games have been pretty decent overall. Obviously there are some finer details in both boxes than we need to improve on, but I reckon we win more games than we lose if we continue to put in the level of performance that we did last night.
Agree about the overall level of the squad as a whole. Got to remember though that it is only our second season back in the division. The finances at play have given a lot of team a pretty big head start. Just look at West Ham being about £60m worth of players off the bench last night.
I think the club as a whole have shown enough recently that they are able to recognise areas where we need to improve and rectify them when they have the opportunity. We are clearly heading in the right direction.
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We were mugged.
Heretical though it may be to say it, but we need to find an alternative to McGinn.
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To me, our form is annoying rather than concerning. 'Concerning' would be scratching around the bottom 8 and wondering where the next win is coming from, 'annoying' is knowing that were it not for missing a handful of chances in two games we'd be top of the league with a game in hand.
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As an aside - What the hell is this fannying about at goal kicks with a defender stood at both corners of the goal box? Invites pressure.
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As an aside - What the hell is this fannying about at goal kicks with a defender stood at both corners of the goal box? Invites pressure.
Retaining possession in order to build up the play though the team. Don’t think it caused many problems last night did it? And it was probably at better tactic that punting it up for Watkins to compete against their giant centre backs.
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As an aside - What the hell is this fannying about at goal kicks with a defender stood at both corners of the goal box? Invites pressure.
I know. One example took nearly 10 passes to get the ball out of our own box, with their forwards closing in.
And the ball still gets whacked into midfield anyway.
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Agreed found that very frustrating last night.
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https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11661/12147701/var-debate-jamie-carragher-and-gary-neville-demand-changes-after-aston-villa-equaliser-ruled-out
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https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/football/12147682/var-denies-villa-last-minute-equaliser
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We were mugged.
Heretical though it may be to say it, but we need to find an alternative to McGinn.
We gave away two cheap goals - early Christmas presents- we mugged ourselves. The sort of shite that nearly relegated us last year.
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As an aside - What the hell is this fannying about at goal kicks with a defender stood at both corners of the goal box? Invites pressure.
I know. One example took nearly 10 passes to get the ball out of our own box, with their forwards closing in.
And the ball still gets whacked into midfield anyway.
It gets whacked up to midfield after the opposition have left space in the midfield by pointlessly pushing up.
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https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11661/12147701/var-debate-jamie-carragher-and-gary-neville-demand-changes-after-aston-villa-equaliser-ruled-out
Carragher nailed it last night with a spot on analogy of the incident. Those in charge of var seem to have almost no common sense when they look at things. Either that or they have absolutely no idea about the nuances of a game of football. I mean are they ex Rugby refs or something? They are clueless about the game we love. It took Carragher mere seconds to spot the foul on Ollie. The plonkers at Stockley Park had no clue what they had missed and were too busy drawing stupid fucking lines all over the place. I'm so completely fucked off with var and those in charge of it right now.
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That was such a spoiler of a decision last night with Watkins disallowed goal.
We toiled so well for so long and fully deserved at least a point.
It was an unfortunate penalty miss too as well as othe decent opportunities to score i felt performance wise a lot was good
Ollie Watkins seemed to think he may have been offside judging by his muted celebrations but I feel it really could have been given and for all our great play,domination and chance thats 2 matches Villa have lost which could have been 3 pts if not at least 1pt in each match
I think to avoid injuries and to freshen up -its really a squad game- a couple of team changes needed and feel its important for 3pts on Friday to get back ok track.
Currently sit 10th place. We've failed on pushing to number 1 position again but it's very fine margins and a solid victory and win on Friday would push us up the table again.
Finishing 8 to 12th would be fair perhaps what we've seen so far and would really love the top half finish.
10th place is a there or thereabouts assessment of where we are given results but performances Villa should be in the top 6 by my reckoning and observations
Anyway very disappointed with the result but pleased on the majority of the play and attitude. I really think Dean Smighs Villa heading in the right way despite last couple of set backs
Up the villa.
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Has anyone got the footage of Jack going down after the clash where Fornals was booked. He's getting slated everywhere this morning by the usual haters but there was a delay there. Would be interested to see again
Also posted in the Grealish thread but probably more relevant here
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I thought VAR was there to overule when an obvious offside was missed not to run the rule over finger tips and big toes.
That said we had more than enough chances to kill the game off, thought Jack was brilliant.
VAR is there (here?) to make sure we get the right decisions, because there's so much at stake these days and at the end of the day that's what we all, players, managers and fans alike, want to see. So we were told.
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Exactly, but the point the ball is kicked is still a guess. No technology can precisely determine this vital part of the criteria used to make an offside decision.
In Rugby and Cricket the advice is relayed live and the referee/umpire has the option to stick with the original decision or overturn it.
As it stands, VAR is subjective but binding. It can't and shouldn't be both.
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Has anyone got the footage of Jack going down after the clash where Fornals was booked. He's getting slated everywhere this morning by the usual haters but there was a delay there. Would be interested to see again
Also posted in the Grealish thread but probably more relevant here
Yes I'd like to see that too. Defended Jack last night after the haters absolutely crucified him. I'm sure I saw some footage where Fornals kicked him in his knee after the ball had gone. That's why he was booked. Jack did hit the deck theatrically but what's he supposed to do when he's getting kicked from pillar to post.
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Exactly, but the point the ball is kicked is still a guess. No technology can precisely determine this vital part of the criteria used to make an offside decision.
In Rugby and Cricket the advice is relayed live and the referee/umpire has the option to stick with the original decision or overturn it.
As it stands, VAR is subjective but binding. It can't and shouldn't be both.
I've banged on abou this since I first saw an offside given by var for millimetres. If you're going to be so precise then you have to know the exact moment it leaves the passing players foot. Had lots of people on here at the time saying I was being ridiculous but it seems bloody obvious to my mind.
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Has anyone got the footage of Jack going down after the clash where Fornals was booked. He's getting slated everywhere this morning by the usual haters but there was a delay there. Would be interested to see again
Also posted in the Grealish thread but probably more relevant here
Yes I'd like to see that too. Defended Jack last night after the haters absolutely crucified him. I'm sure I saw some footage where Fornals kicked him in his knee after the ball had gone. That's why he was booked. Jack did hit the deck theatrically but what's he supposed to do when he's getting kicked from pillar to post.
West Ham seemed to do an awful lot of fouls yesterday. 20 fouls to Villa 7.
Yet it was only one yellow card apiece
Matty Cash was definitely a yellow and he's now on 4 cards one away from suspension
For all his good tackling and determination at times yesterday Cash didn't push on down the right with Dougie Luiz several times motioning him to get forward more and be higher up for when Luiz plays his pass
And back to discipline from the game that I watched West Ham should have had more bookings though.
Peter Bankes was fair to Villa in awarding of fouls but a few more cautions would have stopped all West Ham persistent fouling
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Anybody saying anything about a "good run of fixtures" on here should cop for a week's ban!
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On Jacks dive. I’m sorry there’s no defence. It was embarrassing.
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Plus when he falls to the ground he is clutching his other knee.
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It’s about belief, we dominate a game and still manage to lose.
There is a problem,not sure what it is but I would start with the defense.
We've missed a penalty and yet another fucking sitter, McGinn's shite right foot, off target with a fantastically positioned free kick and a header from six yards out, restricted the opposition to two efforts on target, and people think it's the defence that's the problem? Lots and lots and lots and fucking lots of shooting practice wouldn't go amiss, imho.
You could say we where allowed to attack and dominate the game because they were in the lead for most of the game.
Then hats off to Moyes for his unwavering bravery in banking on us missing all those chances. It's not like they successfully shut up shop, we battered them but finished with all the aplomb of a Scouts under-9s 'b' team.
I scored for the cubs once. In a 7-all draw. Which, if I remember rightly (it was over 40 years ago) was the second best result after a 2-1 win. Our worst was something like 30-1.
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Link to FB video (https://www.facebook.com/100011477390799/videos/1292392584486642/)
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On Jacks dive. I’m sorry there’s no defence. It was embarrassing.
Yep the one with a slight delay & then a theatrical fall to the ground was a bit cringe.
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Two stupid goals.
Missed penalty.
Missed sitter.
Disallowed goal/failure to award penalty.
Other than that, we were by far the better team. It's the individual errors and lack of quality in key moments that is costing us.
I'm not blaming VAR for that defeat, it was part of the issue but putting away easy chances and stopping goal-scoring opportunities is the bread and butter stuff we didn't get right. Trez is so frustrating. Watkins was an inch away from scoring that penalty, it was almost perfect and I don't blame him for going top corner.
Those goals though, fuck me it's bad.
Silly defensive mistakes,
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To me, our form is annoying rather than concerning. 'Concerning' would be scratching around the bottom 8 and wondering where the next win is coming from, 'annoying' is knowing that were it not for missing a handful of chances in two games we'd be top of the league with a game in hand.
It is concerning for me. It’s no good beating Liverpool and Arsenal so convincingly and then losing to Leeds, Southampton, Brighton and West Ham. It’s much better than last season, a real improvement, but our inability to create so little chances (and then not take them, when we do) given how much possession we have is worrying.
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Two stupid goals.
Missed penalty.
Missed sitter.
Disallowed goal/failure to award penalty.
Other than that, we were by far the better team. It's the individual errors and lack of quality in key moments that is costing us.
I'm not blaming VAR for that defeat, it was part of the issue but putting away easy chances and stopping goal-scoring opportunities is the bread and butter stuff we didn't get right. Trez is so frustrating. Watkins was an inch away from scoring that penalty, it was almost perfect and I don't blame him for going top corner.
Those goals though, fuck me it's bad.
Silly defensive mistakes,
It's the inability to keep it tight at the start of each half that drives me mad. They're way too sloppy, and our record when coming from behind is atrocious.
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Two stupid goals.
Missed penalty.
Missed sitter.
Disallowed goal/failure to award penalty.
Other than that, we were by far the better team. It's the individual errors and lack of quality in key moments that is costing us.
I'm not blaming VAR for that defeat, it was part of the issue but putting away easy chances and stopping goal-scoring opportunities is the bread and butter stuff we didn't get right. Trez is so frustrating. Watkins was an inch away from scoring that penalty, it was almost perfect and I don't blame him for going top corner.
Those goals though, fuck me it's bad.
Silly defensive mistakes,
It's the inability to keep it tight at the start of each half that drives me mad. They're way too sloppy, and our record when coming from behind is atrocious.
It doesn’t help when they are sent out early at the start of the second half to warm up and spend most of the time talking to each other and chasing bubbles. 35 seconds in and we concede. Small margins....
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Two stupid goals.
Missed penalty.
Missed sitter.
Disallowed goal/failure to award penalty.
Other than that, we were by far the better team. It's the individual errors and lack of quality in key moments that is costing us.
I'm not blaming VAR for that defeat, it was part of the issue but putting away easy chances and stopping goal-scoring opportunities is the bread and butter stuff we didn't get right. Trez is so frustrating. Watkins was an inch away from scoring that penalty, it was almost perfect and I don't blame him for going top corner.
Those goals though, fuck me it's bad.
Silly defensive mistakes,
It's the inability to keep it tight at the start of each half that drives me mad. They're way too sloppy, and our record when coming from behind is atrocious.
It doesn’t help when they are sent out early at the start of the second half to warm up and spend most of the time talking to each other and chasing bubbles. 35 seconds in and we concede. Small margins....
It's schoolboy stuff. We've been caught out with McGinn in as a header of the ball a couple of times, he's never going to do that job.
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And one of the smallest blokes on the pitch scores with a header.
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https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11661/12147701/var-debate-jamie-carragher-and-gary-neville-demand-changes-after-aston-villa-equaliser-ruled-out
I love how in the article Declan Rice says the West Ham players are “laid back” about VAR and how David Moyes says the decision was right even though he admits Watkins was being fouled. Fuck off. Let’s see how laid back they are when it happens to them. Because it will.
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Two stupid goals.
Missed penalty.
Missed sitter.
Disallowed goal/failure to award penalty.
Other than that, we were by far the better team. It's the individual errors and lack of quality in key moments that is costing us.
I'm not blaming VAR for that defeat, it was part of the issue but putting away easy chances and stopping goal-scoring opportunities is the bread and butter stuff we didn't get right. Trez is so frustrating. Watkins was an inch away from scoring that penalty, it was almost perfect and I don't blame him for going top corner.
Those goals though, fuck me it's bad.
Silly defensive mistakes,
It's the inability to keep it tight at the start of each half that drives me mad. They're way too sloppy, and our record when coming from behind is atrocious.
It doesn’t help when they are sent out early at the start of the second half to warm up and spend most of the time talking to each other and chasing bubbles. 35 seconds in and we concede. Small margins....
It's schoolboy stuff. We've been caught out with McGinn in as a header of the ball a couple of times, he's never going to do that job.
Correct. It's pointless having him back defending corners. Watkins should be in there marking the big players. McGinn can go up top and get the out ball if it comes his way. Ideally, I'd like us to get something approaching a Viera type midfielder in the team. Someone who can defend when needed in such instances and is box to box.
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we may have lost 4 out of 5 but we shouldn’t have
That’s the difference from previous seasons
can’t remember being so pissed of with a performance than last night
to many players need to take a look at themselves
Mings, Target, McGinn, Watkins, Trez none of them are under any pressure of losing their place in the first 11 because we have no quality to replace them
but we should have won easily last night against a side who play Bruce ball
these players let themselves and the club down, it’s not good enough
I dont put Conor in that group because he’s very limited and can’t do any better,
he is what he is out of his depth but that’s not his fault
West Ham are not a good football side yet they are 5 th in the league ffs
Opportunity missed again
That's pretty much where I am, John though I was more pissed off with the result against one of the poorest teams we've played this season. West Ham look like a pub team with big blokes that try to bully the opposition. If Rice can make the England team there's hope for everybody, every ball backwards. The really are horrible to watch and reminded me of a Pulis team.
I echo the thoughts on here about VAR, it's become nonsense.
The one thing that did shine out bright last night was where we are weak in this team and where we need to upgrade. Mings with his Cruyff turns is fooling nobody except himself and his lack of marking at free kicks and corners has been highlighted on here numerous times in the past. Despite playing for England he's not showing any real signs of progressing and he needs to massively improve if we are to reach our potential.
Targett was obviously saving himself for the Newcastle game as he was like a statue for most of the game. I'd love to see his stats from last night. I've walked the dog further than he moved. We really need better.
The midfield could do with some strength in there. Physically it was men against boys as West Ham bullied SJM, Dougie and Conor. Soucek would have been ideal for us in the summer.
Ollie is work in progress. I'm sure he will make it but he still has so much to add to his game starting with close control. Too often the ball just bounces off him. He'll improve but right now it can be so frustrating. His passing too has plenty of space to improve. It would be great to have an option at least on the bench.
Trez can't be allowed to keep on missing sitters. During the game last night I couldn't help thinking what a team we'd be if we had a decent winger. We need quality not just energy. It's another position that would be on my shopping list. I'm not holding my breath on Traore. Maybe we'll go back for the Serbian in January.
Overall I don't see why this team can't finish in the top 8 this season other than lack of squad depth or fucking VAR. Dropping three easy points last night doesn't help but at least the foundations are there to build on. Comparisons with last season are wrong. Last year we were mainly a shambles, this year we need some fine tuning, the only problem is the parts are hard to find and generally expensive.
EDIT: Sorry, forgot Jack. One or two dives last night don't help him as refs will see it and think he's an actor when in fact he gets kicked from pillow to post. The ref last night was shocking and completely lost control of the game, allowing West Ham to take him out the game on a regular basis and not do anything about it.
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To me, our form is annoying rather than concerning. 'Concerning' would be scratching around the bottom 8 and wondering where the next win is coming from, 'annoying' is knowing that were it not for missing a handful of chances in two games we'd be top of the league with a game in hand.
It is concerning for me. It’s no good beating Liverpool and Arsenal so convincingly and then losing to Leeds, Southampton, Brighton and West Ham. It’s much better than last season, a real improvement, but our inability to create so little chances (and then not take them, when we do) given how much possession we have is worrying.
So that’s Southampton & West Ham who are 4th & 5th whilst Arsenal are 14th?
...& we had 16 shots, 6 on target - that’s quite a few chances, although I’d agree putting them away is an issue especially when a penalty is off target.
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That's pretty much where I am, John though I was more pissed off with the result against one of the poorest teams we've played this season. West Ham look like a pub team with big blokes that try to bully the opposition. If Rice can make the England team there's hope for everybody, every ball backwards. The really are horrible to watch and reminded me of a Pulis team.
Do you not think they looked bad because we were pretty good? Always find it odd when people talk about poor performance of teams as if the opposition have no influence on that. They have been pretty decent this season - draw with Man City, smashing Wolves and Leicester - and we fairly comprehensively outplayed them. I appreciate that game state (them having a lead to defend) influences that a bit, but we are a missed penalty and sitter away from an goof away win. And that’s without even getting into the stupidity of VAR
Obviously we have areas/points of our game that we need to improve, but if you look at the performances in the last three defeats we are not far away from being a decent team.
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That's pretty much where I am, John though I was more pissed off with the result against one of the poorest teams we've played this season. West Ham look like a pub team with big blokes that try to bully the opposition. If Rice can make the England team there's hope for everybody, every ball backwards. The really are horrible to watch and reminded me of a Pulis team.
Do you not think they looked bad because we were pretty good? Always find it odd when people talk about poor performance of teams as if the opposition have no influence on that. They have been pretty decent this season - draw with Man City, smashing Wolves and Leicester - and we fairly comprehensively outplayed them. I appreciate that game state (them having a lead to defend) influences that a bit, but we are a missed penalty and sitter away from an goof away win. And that’s without even getting into the stupidity of VAR
Obviously we have areas/points of our game that we need to improve, but if you look at the performances in the last three defeats we are not far away from being a decent team.
I'd not seen West Ham before and was shocked how poor they were, preferring to play heading tennis rather than on the floor. Plenty of hoofing too, generally a really ugly side to watch but no surprise given Moyes is their manager. The West Ham way' takes on a whole new meaning. Were the crap because we were so good? No. By our standards we weren't at our best, far from it and most teams would have looked good against that dross.
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Have those PGMOL ****** apologised yet?
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Have those PGMOL ****** apologised yet?
Why would PGMOL deign to apologise to the likes of us? They would need humility and self-reflection to do that.
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https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11661/12147701/var-debate-jamie-carragher-and-gary-neville-demand-changes-after-aston-villa-equaliser-ruled-out
I love how in the article Declan Rice says the West Ham players are “laid back” about VAR and how David Moyes says the decision was right even though he admits Watkins was being fouled. Fuck off. Let’s see how laid back they are when it happens to them. Because it will.
Not sure Declan is the brightest. He was raging about the penalty he gave away when it was clear he had pulled, albeit slightly, Trez’s shirt. Pen all day long
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Have those PGMOL ****** apologised yet?
Why would PGMOL deign to apologise to the likes of us? They would need humility and self-reflection to do that.
Yes and it would also recognise that may be the game is all about fans and that would be a terrible admission.
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Watching last night I had not realised that Villa had joined a "walking football" league. West Ham were there for the taking if we had upped our game and moved both ourselves and the ball a damn sight quicker. Need to have a bit of Bielsa style injected into them. Throughout the team, but with some more than others, there was a general apathy to up the tempo and I genuinely thought at half time that Smith would have got stuck into them and we would see a different team in the second half. But no, just the same as before. I am beginning to think that there are certain players who believe they are too good to be dropped. Well they need to be told in no uncertain terms what the position is. They are good enough to reach a decent league position but need to put in the hard graft to succeed.
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https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11661/12147701/var-debate-jamie-carragher-and-gary-neville-demand-changes-after-aston-villa-equaliser-ruled-out
I love how in the article Declan Rice says the West Ham players are “laid back” about VAR and how David Moyes says the decision was right even though he admits Watkins was being fouled. Fuck off. Let’s see how laid back they are when it happens to them. Because it will.
I agree TV. Rice is an absolute gobshite. He didn't appear laid back last night when the penalty was awarded; looked like a maniac on acid.
Moyes can fuck off too. Looks like a used tissue.
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Was so frustrated last night, thought I’d wait a day. Glad I did.
Overall, we are so much better than we were a year ago and that’s clear, despite the result. Last night was just one of those - we were by far the better team (both managers said so), created some great chances, looked assured for the majority of the game, and stats showed our dominance in almost all areas of the game. Keep doing that and, it’s inevitable the results and the bigger picture will continue to head in the right direction.
Where we need to improve:
1. Squad depth - out of form players like Mings need to feel they will be dropped if they can’t maintain the form required. Right now the competition isn’t strong enough
2. Composure - we need to keep working to reduce the individual, silly errors that come from the mental side of the game (missing penalties, sloppy back passes, casual early goals given away etc)
3. Home tactics - we have looked so much better away from home because we are set up to play on the counter. At home we have looked poor when having to take the game to the opposition and have been picked off too easy - need to adapt our play and me more patient while at home
In summary I feel good today - too easy to dwell on the negatives after a game like that but we made West Ham look very ordinary (and not many teams have don’t that - thus why they are 5th) and on another day, would have won handily.
Two big games coming up - we need to take the positives and turn that into 6 points
UTV
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Didn't like the way the Spam players hounded the ref after every decision against them.Like a moany nineties Utd.
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Didn't like the way the Spam players hounded the ref after every decision against them.Like a moany nineties Utd.
Agreed, he is relatively inexperienced at PL level and didn’t seem to know how to deal with it and they took advantage.
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Didn't like the way the Spam players hounded the ref after every decision against them.Like a moany nineties Utd.
Agreed, he is relatively inexperienced at PL level and didn’t seem to know how to deal with it and they took advantage.
His 10th game I think I heard. He had a shocker.
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Didn't like the way the Spam players hounded the ref after every decision against them.Like a moany nineties Utd.
Didn't seem to effect the referee that much, still gave us a softish penalty (but right decision). Thought West Ham should have had two more yellow cards minimum, Haller had a nasty enough rake down Ming's calf and Coufal surely deserved one for repeat fouling on Jack. Thought ref did ok to be honest, booked the two clowns on the bench too.
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Didn't like the way the Spam players hounded the ref after every decision against them.Like a moany nineties Utd.
Didn't seem to effect the referee that much, still gave us a softish penalty (but right decision). Thought West Ham should have had two more yellow cards minimum, Haller had a nasty enough rake down Ming's calf and Coufal surely deserved one for repeat fouling on Jack. Thought ref did ok to be honest, booked the two clowns on the bench too.
Well he booked one of theirs and John Terry
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I'm surprised people are criticising some players and saying our tempo was too slow. I thought we played some lovely incisive stuff at times, carved the open several times and created plenty of chances. Watkins looked a a duffer at times (the one he put past the post, the free header off target and especially the pen) but also had some lovely touches and did brilliantly to set up Trezeguet. McGinn, Mings, Targett and Hourahan also made positive contributions as well as the odd ricket or dodgy decision.
The problem is all the above counts for nothing if you make schoolboy errors in defence - they invariably get punished at this level - and miss sitters. Like in many sports it's often those that make the fewest errors that come out on top, and we make far too many.
Most frustrating is Trezeguet, who, after looking utterly hopeless last season, has shown he can play a bit recently and he gets into great positions match after match. But he wastes his good work by almost always finding a way to miss completely or hit it straight at the keeper. If he could just calm down, aim for the corner or throw a little feint to put the keeper/defender off, he'd score bucketloads. But no, it's always head down and blast it, or fumble it like he did last night. He totally and utterly lacks composure of any description, and we need better.
Watkins also needs to take more if his chances too but he has got a fair few and he's new to this level so perhaps should be cut a little slack.
Not convinced by Traore yet but perhaps he needs a few full games.
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https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11661/12147701/var-debate-jamie-carragher-and-gary-neville-demand-changes-after-aston-villa-equaliser-ruled-out
I love how in the article Declan Rice says the West Ham players are “laid back” about VAR and how David Moyes says the decision was right even though he admits Watkins was being fouled. Fuck off. Let’s see how laid back they are when it happens to them. Because it will.
I agree TV. Rice is an absolute gobshite. He didn't appear laid back last night when the penalty was awarded; looked like a maniac on acid.
Moyes can fuck off too. Looks like a used tissue.
Rice was rubbish last night as was Soucek. We utterly dominated midfield with Luiz outstanding.
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Agree with all of yours there ktvillan. I will though put in some good words for Watkins. His speed to run himself free on the flanks and also past players on the flank. Also his taking the long high pass ball down with his feet when tight marked from two big central defendres can be exeptional and also then play himself out of a crowded place. I like him, hope he gets even better.
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I thought the most notable thing about Rice was that he managed to be interviewed for five minutes afterward without saying anything of even mild interest.
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we may have lost 4 out of 5 but we shouldn’t have
That’s the difference from previous seasons
can’t remember being so pissed of with a performance than last night
to many players need to take a look at themselves
Mings, Target, McGinn, Watkins, Trez none of them are under any pressure of losing their place in the first 11 because we have no quality to replace them
but we should have won easily last night against a side who play Bruce ball
these players let themselves and the club down, it’s not good enough
I dont put Conor in that group because he’s very limited and can’t do any better,
he is what he is out of his depth but that’s not his fault
West Ham are not a good football side yet they are 5 th in the league ffs
Opportunity missed again
That's pretty much where I am, John though I was more pissed off with the result against one of the poorest teams we've played this season. West Ham look like a pub team with big blokes that try to bully the opposition. If Rice can make the England team there's hope for everybody, every ball backwards. The really are horrible to watch and reminded me of a Pulis team.
I echo the thoughts on here about VAR, it's become nonsense.
The one thing that did shine out bright last night was where we are weak in this team and where we need to upgrade. Mings with his Cruyff turns is fooling nobody except himself and his lack of marking at free kicks and corners has been highlighted on here numerous times in the past. Despite playing for England he's not showing any real signs of progressing and he needs to massively improve if we are to reach our potential.
Targett was obviously saving himself for the Newcastle game as he was like a statue for most of the game. I'd love to see his stats from last night. I've walked the dog further than he moved. We really need better.
The midfield could do with some strength in there. Physically it was men against boys as West Ham bullied SJM, Dougie and Conor. Soucek would have been ideal for us in the summer.
Ollie is work in progress. I'm sure he will make it but he still has so much to add to his game starting with close control. Too often the ball just bounces off him. He'll improve but right now it can be so frustrating. His passing too has plenty of space to improve. It would be great to have an option at least on the bench.
Trez can't be allowed to keep on missing sitters. During the game last night I couldn't help thinking what a team we'd be if we had a decent winger. We need quality not just energy. It's another position that would be on my shopping list. I'm not holding my breath on Traore. Maybe we'll go back for the Serbian in January.
Overall I don't see why this team can't finish in the top 8 this season other than lack of squad depth or fucking VAR. Dropping three easy points last night doesn't help but at least the foundations are there to build on. Comparisons with last season are wrong. Last year we were mainly a shambles, this year we need some fine tuning, the only problem is the parts are hard to find and generally expensive.
EDIT: Sorry, forgot Jack. One or two dives last night don't help him as refs will see it and think he's an actor when in fact he gets kicked from pillow to post. The ref last night was shocking and completely lost control of the game, allowing West Ham to take him out the game on a regular basis and not do anything about it.
Partially agree with what your saying here, particularly points made on Mings and Trez and the potential of a top 8 finish. Don’t see where your coming from on the midfield, thought our midfield in particular jack and luiz completely bossed it last night, where we were bullied we invariably won free kicks. Thought McGinn was half decent and hourihane despite being a bit of a whipping boy on here, passed it crisply and was unlucky with his two free kicks, he’s not as good as Barklay mind and we lose a huge cutting edge without him.
Targett another whipping boy, did nothing wrong for me last night. I really like Matty cash and his commitment, but for me he’s been to a degree at fault for letting Ings and the Brighton lad cut in and shoot recently and last night he stood too far off Benhrama and let him easily put in a nice cross for their second. He also turned back more often than not when he got over the half line, maybe not having confidence in himself, whereas Targett does get balls crossed in the box.
Watkins has stepped up a division and is not the finished article, but already for me has the potential to be the best striker we’ve had since Benteke. Much better all round player in this league than Kodja and not showing any signs of being worse than Abraham
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https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11661/12147701/var-debate-jamie-carragher-and-gary-neville-demand-changes-after-aston-villa-equaliser-ruled-out
I love how in the article Declan Rice says the West Ham players are “laid back” about VAR and how David Moyes says the decision was right even though he admits Watkins was being fouled. Fuck off. Let’s see how laid back they are when it happens to them. Because it will.
I agree TV. Rice is an absolute gobshite. He didn't appear laid back last night when the penalty was awarded; looked like a maniac on acid.
Moyes can fuck off too. Looks like a used tissue.
The internet is so easy to call out hypocrites sometimes. All I did was type Rice and VAR!
https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/11905843/declan-rice-calls-for-var-to-be-scrapped-after-west-ham-goal-ruled-out-handball-rule-a-joke-says-jamie-carragher
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I think people have lost sight of what the offside rule is for and why it was originally brought in. It is to prevent the attacker gaining an advantage by being closer to the goal than the defender. All this lining up various parts of the body to see which is further forward is absolute rubbish.
Watkins's hand was extended about 6" further than the fullback on the far side who also had his arm out. What advantage was gained by that. Watkins's feet were still behind the defender's, meaning that he had still to run past him. Smith got it right when he said that he couldn't have put the ball in the net with the part of the body that was deemed to be offside. The reason why Watkins got to the ball ahead of the defender was because he was quicker and got past him as the defender was initially trying to pull him back. It wasn't because his arm was outstretched past the defender.
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It would appear that you are no longer allowed to use your arms when running; much like the handball rule, to avoid being offside your arms now need to be at your side or clenched behind your back.
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The handball rule has been changed. You can score with your upper arm, which effectively extends to the end of the sleeve of a short-sleeved shirt. Which is where they measured to.
It's bollocks in my view but that's what it is.
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I think the 'technical' definition is a line level with the bottom of a resting armpit. I still don't see why it needed moving from the point of the shoulder.
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I think the 'technical' definition is a line level with the bottom of a resting armpit. I still don't see why it needed moving from the point of the shoulder.
At a guess I'd say it's an attempt to clarify the handball rules. But once VAR got involved it's had completely the opposite effect. Obviously.
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These VAR tw*ts couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery, could they?
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Ahem I would just like to say I returned to pre match duties and we won. You’re welcome.